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A reasonable Comprise.

I have a suggestion that would benefit non raiders and make primary Open Worlders happy.

Create Open World non instanced zones where the Raids are stationed on the map, the bosses would be set to be on Par with Legendary Bounties, and the rewards would be the same as Legendary Bounties with no option to get Legendary Armor.

(You can Zerg your way to Legendary Armor any way in WvW so no worries right?).

You guys get to keep your Raids with no difficulties altered.

Open Worlders are opened up to new Legendary Bounties with mechanics tacked on that are close Approximations that change each encounter by random.

No new assets really need to be created, the Raid Maps are already there, the boss models already exist, the Legendary Bounties with their mechanics are already there.

No new content needs to be created, just utilized in a new option.

It's a great option, you guys can do your own thing and never have to mix with people like me.

win win solution.

Comments

  • And how would you do the collections of legendary armour?

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Probably by keeping them in the instanced versions which would remain unaltered, as far as I understand the proposal.

    Nevertheless, I prefer the most simple solution to a problem whose existence is questionable: Keep the status quo. Not all content is for everyone and that's perfectly fine. I despise this game's PvP, but I don't run into the PvP forums on a daily basis and whine how they must change this and that to accommodate my wishes. So I dare question whether we need all those threads to make raids more accessible or whatever.

    This would not be that, I'm talking about making them an Open World Legendary Bounty Zerg , no Legendary Armor, just something fun where a bosses mechanics are put on one at a time randomly so people that pay attention can learn how to counter them (sort of like the random mechanics that pop up on Legendary Bounties).

    Down the road who ever does these will have been exposed to all the mechanics the Boss would do any way so they could conceivably walk in a raid and be familiar with the mechanics.

  • Imagine the clown fiesta of a 50 person zerg trying to push around orbs at VG without accidently killing anyone...

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Altair.8402 said:
    Imagine the clown fiesta of a 50 person zerg trying to push around orbs at VG without accidently killing anyone...

    That already exists in Bloodstone Fen. Idiots knock all the orbs straight into the middle of the boss making it a pain to melee him.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Altair.8402 said:
    Imagine the clown fiesta of a 50 person zerg trying to push around orbs at VG without accidently killing anyone...

    Ye, sounds glorious.

  • So bassically a raid but you want to zerg to kill it. more 1111 autos for the win conent right. just what we need

  • @Oldirtbeard.9834 As others have pointed out, the Anomaly in Bloodstone Fen is essential the Vale Guardian for open world. Can you comment if that's the sort of thing to which you refer? There are other bosses that already use mechanics similar to other raid bosses, including some in fractals and others in PoF. How close does the open world encounter need to be to the raid boss to meet your goals?

    (I hope you realize that (a) they can't be 100% the same, since they are designed for 10 players and small enclosed space and (b) some mechanics have to change between open world and instances. It's obviously not the same as starting from scratch, but sometimes it's actually harder to fit a square peg in a round hole than it would be just to make a round peg in the first place.)

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    Probably by keeping them in the instanced versions which would remain unaltered, as far as I understand the proposal.

    Nevertheless, I prefer the most simple solution to a problem whose existence is questionable: Keep the status quo. Not all content is for everyone and that's perfectly fine. I despise this game's PvP, but I don't run into the PvP forums on a daily basis and whine how they must change this and that to accommodate my wishes. So I dare question whether we need all those threads to make raids more accessible or whatever.

    There's a major difference in that case. They don't want to take your raids away from you. They want their own raids tailored for their current skills with appropriate raiding rewards. That's a perfectly reasonable request. It works extremely well for fractals btw. Are high tier fractals less enjoyable because lower tiers exist? No.

  • @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:
    Down the road who ever does these will have been exposed to all the mechanics the Boss would do any way so they could conceivably walk in a raid and be familiar with the mechanics.

    This is SO not true lol....
    Just look at the best example of what you said.... the anomaly in bloodstone fen.

    Although to be fair, I don't even care. This thing you're suggesting would be implemented by one of the open world teams, NOT the raid team because this is not raids. It's not gonna slow down the development of raids in any way, it's just gonna rob casuals of more open world content in favor of some boring toned down version of raid bosses. If you think it's worth it, be my guest.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:
    Down the road who ever does these will have been exposed to all the mechanics the Boss would do any way so they could conceivably walk in a raid and be familiar with the mechanics.

    This is SO not true lol....
    Just look at the best example of what you said.... the anomaly in bloodstone fen.

    Although to be fair, I don't even care. This thing you're suggesting would be implemented by one of the open world teams, NOT the raid team because this is not raids. It's not gonna slow down the development of raids in any way, it's just gonna rob casuals of more open world content in favor of some boring toned down version of raid bosses. If you think it's worth it, be my guest.

    This exactly.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    May I ask what's the point of it? If it's open world legendary bounty killing you won't learn any of the mechanics, you won't see any of the story, you won't get any of the rewards, so I'm curious, why would they ever do this?

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    @Oldirtbeard.9834 As others have pointed out, the Anomaly in Bloodstone Fen is essential the Vale Guardian for open world. Can you comment if that's the sort of thing to which you refer? There are other bosses that already use mechanics similar to other raid bosses, including some in fractals and others in PoF. How close does the open world encounter need to be to the raid boss to meet your goals?

    (I hope you realize that (a) they can't be 100% the same, since they are designed for 10 players and small enclosed space and (b) some mechanics have to change between open world and instances. It's obviously not the same as starting from scratch, but sometimes it's actually harder to fit a square peg in a round hole than it would be just to make a round peg in the first place.)

    Yes exactly, except I want to use the environments as well so theres no new assets that need to be implemented, just replace the engine with sedan commuter engine, and replace the rewards with Legendary Bounty awards, perhaps a lengthy grindy currency for people to farm out ascended sets as well.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    May I ask what's the point of it? If it's open world legendary bounty killing you won't learn any of the mechanics, you won't see any of the story, you won't get any of the rewards, so I'm curious, why would they ever do this?

    Wing 1 through 3 are prequels to LWS3, Raid Wing 4 ties into the last episode of season 3 and might offer up some better explanations for the Eye of Janthir than what was presented in the episode (if it were not for Wooden Potatoes I'd have no idea what was happening).

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    Again, I reference the Choya piñata. People NOW cant organize well enough or listen to actually cc the dude so you can win. They all try and zerg the fight and it fails. Mob mentality to the max. Raids are raids, are meant to be tough (as they aren't hard really) and it needs to stay that way. I have yet to kill any of the last bosses in any of the wings, why, mostly because my team collapsed but also I wont PUG due to toxic nature of "most" but more importantly I know my limits and being somewhat a clicker still I struggle at a lot of mechanics so until I get better I wont complete them. I am not screaming at ANET to dumb it down so I can do them, its not on them, its on me. And with the new raids I think we are going to see a bunch of new fights/mechanics and who knows, they may be more casual friendly? Hope not but it could happen.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    May I ask what's the point of it? If it's open world legendary bounty killing you won't learn any of the mechanics, you won't see any of the story, you won't get any of the rewards, so I'm curious, why would they ever do this?

    Wing 1 through 3 are prequels to LWS3, Raid Wing 4 ties into the last episode of season 3 and might offer up some better explanations for the Eye of Janthir than what was presented in the episode (if it were not for Wooden Potatoes I'd have no idea what was happening).

    But you won't see the story in this open version of yours...

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    Again, I reference the Choya piñata. People NOW cant organize well enough or listen to actually cc the dude so you can win. They all try and zerg the fight and it fails. Mob mentality to the max. Raids are raids, are meant to be tough (as they aren't hard really) and it needs to stay that way. I have yet to kill any of the last bosses in any of the wings, why, mostly because my team collapsed but also I wont PUG due to toxic nature of "most" but more importantly I know my limits and being somewhat a clicker still I struggle at a lot of mechanics so until I get better I wont complete them. I am not screaming at ANET to kitten it down so I can do them, its not on them, its on me. And with the new raids I think we are going to see a bunch of new fights/mechanics and who knows, they may be more casual friendly? Hope not but it could happen.

    Neither am I, I have not ranted any where except the Necromancer forum.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    Again, I reference the Choya piñata. People NOW cant organize well enough or listen to actually cc the dude so you can win. They all try and zerg the fight and it fails. Mob mentality to the max. Raids are raids, are meant to be tough (as they aren't hard really) and it needs to stay that way. I have yet to kill any of the last bosses in any of the wings, why, mostly because my team collapsed but also I wont PUG due to toxic nature of "most" but more importantly I know my limits and being somewhat a clicker still I struggle at a lot of mechanics so until I get better I wont complete them. I am not screaming at ANET to kitten it down so I can do them, its not on them, its on me. And with the new raids I think we are going to see a bunch of new fights/mechanics and who knows, they may be more casual friendly? Hope not but it could happen.

    Neither am I, I have not ranted any where except the Necromancer forum.

    If you play Necro you have a reason to rant for sure!!! ;)
    And I should add, not having a go as at least you are trying to come up with some sort of solution for all the others crying!

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    May I ask what's the point of it? If it's open world legendary bounty killing you won't learn any of the mechanics, you won't see any of the story, you won't get any of the rewards, so I'm curious, why would they ever do this?

    I was wondering that too. Neither the Guardian in BF nor Sloth in EB actually satisfied anyone, so i don't think more of those kinds of bosses would be wanted. Additionally, raid boss mechanics don't translate too well into a open world environment, so they won't also satisfy people asking for more worldbosses.

    As i see it, there's simply no point to it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • PopeUrban.2578PopeUrban.2578 Member ✭✭✭

    The entire point Crystal made in regards to not working on raid variants was simply that doing it in any form takes development resources. Even this theoretical open world system STILL takes development resources. Someone has to stop what they're doing now to retrofit raid bosses, alter mechanics, etc. etc. in stead of working on new LS stuff, or new fractal stuff, or new raid stuff.

    It isn't about the amount of effort. Its the idea that more effort than zero is more effort than zero, and they prefer to create more accessible content whole-kitten in stead of half-kitten.

    Software development is rarely as simple as it seems on paper. Especially in a project like an MMO where multiple QA steps, patch verification steps, and other stuff not specifically part of the actual arguments and variables is a large part of that process that costs time any money as well.

    All the perks, none of the responsibilities.
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  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    @PopeUrban.2578 said:
    The entire point Crystal made in regards to not working on raid variants was simply that doing it in any form takes development resources. Even this theoretical open world system STILL takes development resources. Someone has to stop what they're doing now to retrofit raid bosses, alter mechanics, etc. etc. in stead of working on new LS stuff, or new fractal stuff, or new raid stuff.

    It isn't about the amount of effort. Its the idea that more effort than zero is more effort than zero, and they prefer to create more accessible content whole-kitten in stead of half-kitten.

    Software development is rarely as simple as it seems on paper. Especially in a project like an MMO where multiple QA steps, patch verification steps, and other stuff not specifically part of the actual arguments and variables is a large part of that process that costs time any money as well.

    Perhaps if we need to streamline the game toward that majority of paying customers then we can have bigger LW maps with a few tough open world bosses like Vine Wraith and Tequatl, because the raid team takes resources away from something the majority will never do, making it a waste of money.

    At least what I'm suggesting is a win win for every one, I could just take your view point since if you think about it Raid development takes food off the plate of Open World/Living World development.

    I do not want to take away your content, I just want to see the art assets used in a way that gets more bang for the buck that A Net has already spent.

  • PopeUrban.2578PopeUrban.2578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2017

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @PopeUrban.2578 said:
    The entire point Crystal made in regards to not working on raid variants was simply that doing it in any form takes development resources. Even this theoretical open world system STILL takes development resources. Someone has to stop what they're doing now to retrofit raid bosses, alter mechanics, etc. etc. in stead of working on new LS stuff, or new fractal stuff, or new raid stuff.

    It isn't about the amount of effort. Its the idea that more effort than zero is more effort than zero, and they prefer to create more accessible content whole-kitten in stead of half-kitten.

    Software development is rarely as simple as it seems on paper. Especially in a project like an MMO where multiple QA steps, patch verification steps, and other stuff not specifically part of the actual arguments and variables is a large part of that process that costs time any money as well.

    Perhaps if we need to streamline the game toward that majority of paying customers then we can have bigger LW maps with a few tough open world bosses like Vine Wraith and Tequatl, because the raid team takes resources away from something the majority will never do, making it a waste of money.

    At least what I'm suggesting is a win win for every one, I could just take your view point since if you think about it Raid development takes food off the plate of Open World/Living World development.

    I do not want to take away your content, I just want to see the art assets used in a way that gets more bang for the buck that A Net has already spent.

    The decision to make raiding a part of the game has been made, and the target for that content had been set. That's the point CR was making. That the raid content is specifically intended for a certain subset of players in the same manner as WvW and PvP are specifically intended for a certain subset of players. Statistically, in MMOs, there are no "majorities" but rather an intricate web of lots and lots of minority groups in which most players belong to several. The entire point of Raids was to serve a specific minority that wasn't being served, not to create broader content.

    Trying to retrofit it to "broaden" that content, no matter the intent, pulls resources from elsewhere, and you're not going to get there without slowing down development of some other portion of the game compared to the current development pace.

    Raids exist now, and are intended to exist in perpetuity, just like the LS and expansion model.

    It isn't about a "majority of paying customers" because that does not effectively exist as one homogeneous group. Everyone playing on an LS map is not one homogenous "majority" in the first place, but rather a mesh of casual story players, achievement hunters, farmers, legendary crafters, people who just want new hall decorations, and a myriad of other minorities, and those minorities overlap. The fact that low level fractals exist does not inherently make them appealing to a mythical "majority" of players. The fact that collections or 2AP achievements exist does not make them appealing to a mythical "majority" of players. The fact that EOTM was added as a "casual" WvW does not make it appealing to a mythical "majority" of players. The existance of the wardrobe does not make cosmetics more appealing to some mythical "majority" of players. The existence of some sort of lower tier raid structure will not make it more appealing to a mythical "majority" of players either.

    All types of content serve a specific minority of players, and most players belong to one or more minorities. There is no "my content" and "your content" because we are both groups of several distinct minority groups of players. Raid serve a specific minority of players, just like all other content types.

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  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids are hardly big enough to warrant being stand alone maps. These would be tiny maps that just serve the purpose of having 3 or 4 bounties. None of it would make sense.

    Just make a story mode, no rewards, everything divided by 100. Boss hp divided by 100, damage divided by 100, etc. Don't release story mode until like, 2 weeks after the raid comes out. As fighting the bosses to figure out what is going on, makes it more exciting.

  • @thrag.9740 said:
    Raids are hardly big enough to warrant being stand alone maps. These would be tiny maps that just serve the purpose of having 3 or 4 bounties. None of it would make sense.

    Just make a story mode, no rewards, everything divided by 100. Boss hp divided by 100, damage divided by 100, etc. Don't release story mode until like, 2 weeks after the raid comes out. As fighting the bosses to figure out what is going on, makes it more exciting.

    We dont need more dead content. One play through if that on story mode and it;s never touched again. Then people will complain about rewards and we back a square 1.
    wasted time and effort foir what? so some can 11111 a boss and say they raided ?

  • @PopeUrban.2578 said:
    The entire point Crystal made in regards to not working on raid variants was simply that doing it in any form takes development resources. Even this theoretical open world system STILL takes development resources. Someone has to stop what they're doing now to retrofit raid bosses, alter mechanics, etc. etc. in stead of working on new LS stuff, or new fractal stuff, or new raid stuff.

    It isn't about the amount of effort. Its the idea that more effort than zero is more effort than zero, and they prefer to create more accessible content whole-kitten in stead of half-kitten.

    Software development is rarely as simple as it seems on paper. Especially in a project like an MMO where multiple QA steps, patch verification steps, and other stuff not specifically part of the actual arguments and variables is a large part of that process that costs time any money as well.

    Agreed. If I can tl;dr your comment, it's not just about how easy/cheap it costs; it's about what else could be done with those resources instead.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Valik Shin.9027 said:
    And how would you do the collections of legendary armour?

    You wouldn't.

    TCs suggestions is aimed to provide people an opportunity to see the raid zones and see the raid bosses without having to raid. Obviously to raid rewards would not be available.

    While I personally wouldn't mind, I doubt there is a huge audience for this. As seen by the first comment, people want the shinies.

    My bad. Misread it the first time

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of how this conversation goes I will say I'm glad this was an actual dialogue as opposed to the discussions on the old forums that were full of acrimony on both sides, I'm glad we all had a conversation and I think it well.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Raids are hardly big enough to warrant being stand alone maps. These would be tiny maps that just serve the purpose of having 3 or 4 bounties. None of it would make sense.

    Just make a story mode, no rewards, everything divided by 100. Boss hp divided by 100, damage divided by 100, etc. Don't release story mode until like, 2 weeks after the raid comes out. As fighting the bosses to figure out what is going on, makes it more exciting.

    We dont need more dead content. One play through if that on story mode and it;s never touched again. Then people will complain about rewards and we back a square 1.
    wasted time and effort foir what? so some can 11111 a boss and say they raided ?

    All story content is dead content within a month. Just how it goes. And no, it isn't so they can say they raided. It is so they can experience the story, and we can avoid this thread coming up once a month for 2 years.

  • Oldirtbeard.9834Oldirtbeard.9834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Raids are hardly big enough to warrant being stand alone maps. These would be tiny maps that just serve the purpose of having 3 or 4 bounties. None of it would make sense.

    Just make a story mode, no rewards, everything divided by 100. Boss hp divided by 100, damage divided by 100, etc. Don't release story mode until like, 2 weeks after the raid comes out. As fighting the bosses to figure out what is going on, makes it more exciting.

    We dont need more dead content. One play through if that on story mode and it;s never touched again. Then people will complain about rewards and we back a square 1.
    wasted time and effort foir what? so some can 11111 a boss and say they raided ?

    All story content is dead content within a month. Just how it goes. And no, it isn't so they can say they raided. It is so they can experience the story, and we can avoid this thread coming up once a month for 2 years.

    I'd like to think my proposal was a bit more thought through than Easymode Raids please.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:
    I'd like to think my proposal was a bit more thought through than Easymode Raids please.

    Then i suggest you reread all the easymode raids threads again. Many of those weren't as simple as you seem to think.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    Raids are hardly big enough to warrant being stand alone maps. These would be tiny maps that just serve the purpose of having 3 or 4 bounties. None of it would make sense.

    Just make a story mode, no rewards, everything divided by 100. Boss hp divided by 100, damage divided by 100, etc. Don't release story mode until like, 2 weeks after the raid comes out. As fighting the bosses to figure out what is going on, makes it more exciting.

    We dont need more dead content. One play through if that on story mode and it;s never touched again. Then people will complain about rewards and we back a square 1.
    wasted time and effort foir what? so some can 11111 a boss and say they raided ?

    All story content is dead content within a month. Just how it goes. And no, it isn't so they can say they raided. It is so they can experience the story, and we can avoid this thread coming up once a month for 2 years.

    I'd like to think my proposal was a bit more thought through than Easymode Raids please.

    Complicated doesnt mean better or realistic. You propose 4 new open world maps just so we can have 13 new legendary bounties. That is a bad return on investment of developer hours. Legendary bounties are already a sinking ship, because they have terrible rewards. The main reason people do them now is because they see a group of people already doing them. What reason besides bounties would people have to be on the 4 new raid maps?

    My idea: take existing instances, use the mote feature which already exists to modify the rewards and difficulty. Things we have already seen done in raiding and fractals.

    You can make up crazy complicated solutions and preach about how much better they are, but it doesnt mean they get implemented.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    My idea: take existing instances, use the mote feature which already exists to modify the rewards and difficulty. Things we have already seen done in raiding and fractals.

    Honestly that idea has many problems, but more important one is the community split. I always wondered why challenge motes do not have a permanent reward, which would make them much more amazing. But there is a high possibility that giving them extra rewards would cause all raid groups to move to those and ignore the prior Raid encounters, making training/new Raids even harder to be created.

    Adding even more version motes and versions would complicate things even further.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @thrag.9740 said:
    My idea: take existing instances, use the mote feature which already exists to modify the rewards and difficulty. Things we have already seen done in raiding and fractals.

    Honestly that idea has many problems, but more important one is the community split. I always wondered why challenge motes do not have a permanent reward, which would make them much more amazing. But there is a high possibility that giving them extra rewards would cause all raid groups to move to those and ignore the prior Raid encounters, making training/new Raids even harder to be created.

    Adding even more version motes and versions would complicate things even further.

    READ READ READ my actual post. I am not advocating tiered difficulty in any serious way. Decreasing boss hp by a factor of 100 isn't easy mode, its an interactive youtube video with no rewards. And you know what it does? It gets rid of these threads.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @thrag.9740 said:
    It gets rid of these threads.

    No, it only shifts the threads to the real complaint. The armor and loot.

    Also, see eater of souls as to why an easy mode for Raids will never happen. Like, literally never....No amount of balance can make an already easy fight easy enough for that kinda of player.