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Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

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  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This will never change, the vast majority of gamers in the community within guild wars 2 are pretty lazy. The refusal to learn the content, mechanics, classes and what have you is what leads us to the issues we have both in PvE and competitive. The only way it will change is if A-net forces the community to change, and they tried with HoT and failed miserably because they backed up. The cater to a specific niche, that niche is the targeted demographic and anyone who plays the game at a higher tier or even to a point where they are optimal for their preferred content have a leg up on the others and are NOT the targeted demographic.

    A-net seems pretty clear in their approach, milk the casuals who will NEVER do the content that is outside of open-world. Which is why it gets the most cadence. Thats where the money is because thats where gaming is headed, no challenge and just brainless chew through hordes of enemies like this is diablo 3. New world is doing the same thing, and it looks like all MMO's are headed in that direction. Pretty soon we wont even have to fight! Everything will die as soon as we enter a map due to our sheer awesome and we get all the loot. (Pretty sure there are people out there who would LOVE for an auto-play mode in this game, much like a browser/mobile game.)

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:
    The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

    They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

    Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

    How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

    The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

    The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This arguement is silly.
    It's like blaming Dulfy or AyinMaiden for putting out jumping puzzle guides and making them easy for players to copy paste to see results.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:
    The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

    They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

    Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

    How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

    The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

    The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

    Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

    Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

    And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

    Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

    You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    Snowcrow's site has nothing to do with it ... people were pushing meta and 'destroying' raiding LONG before sites like this were posting builds. If anything, Snowcrow's site and others remove a significant level of ignorance from metapushing. In otherwords ... at least the builds these people are pushing are the CORRECT ones to push.

    I really loved the time someone was trying to tell me bowbear ranger was meta ... because there was a video of someone taking hours to solo clear a dungeon with it. ... so no, as much as I hate metapushing, these sites DO an important service to us as players.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Why fast food restaurants ruin people

    Because people become overweight because they become addicted and have no control over themselves.
    Only fast food restaurants with their evil moneymaking are to blame for this!

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:
    The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

    They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

    Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

    How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

    The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

    The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

    Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

    Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

    And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

    Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

    You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

    No, it's not bad to teach someone a fault tolerant build. You've just saved tons of people HOURS of dealing with a bad PuG. O my gosh. i can't believe you just said that. You're right they don't have to teach anyone anything different, but it sure as heck doesn't make raiding more accessible, which is one of the major problems right now. It's definitely not improving things. If Anet wants to force everyone to play like an SC monkey, they could make the HP bars of bosses that much bigger.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:
    The type of player that will blindly follow a build on a site will blindly follow a build a guildmate or fellow raid member gives them.

    They aren't going to bother to deal with the whys to figure out how to adjust when things don't go to plan.

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding or any other content. They're offering information on the meta build and rotation. What players do with that information is not up to Snowcrows.

    Except it's totally not. Because the game doesn't tell you how to play. So when the only definitive source is a speedkill guild, you get speedkill noob messes.

    How is any of that Snowcrows fault?

    Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding.

    The primary thing destroying it, if it's even being destroyed, is players' lack of willingness to put for the time and effort to learn about the build they are getting and why the choices made were done. This is regardless of whether the build is a speed build or a super safe PUG build.

    The second thing you touched on: the game not doing as good of a job as it could in teaching mechanics, especially CC.

    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    They don't have to do anything. They don't have to share the builds that they do. But they choose to share the meta builds that they come up with and provide guides on classes so that players can learn and master them.

    Personally, teaching a fault tolerant build is worse than not teaching one. If a player learns that, they've likely learned a lot of bad habits. Like being able to take more hits than they would on the meta build. So they don't get as good as avoiding/blocking the hit. Then when they move up now they're not only having to learn a new rotation, but fail at mechanics they thought they had down.

    Players should understand the meta build and then adjust it for their playing preferences/skill while making sure to cover all of the things the meta build provides or being aware of what it lacks so that they can make sure another raid member can pick it up if necessary.

    And we, again, go back to the players being the ones who choose to not learn and understand. Then when things can and do go wrong in a PUG situation, they don't know what to use because they don't know their build.

    Until you fix the players' desire to learn the builds properly, no amount of fault tolerant builds will actually solve the problem.

    You're blaming the wrong source. Its the players' fault that raids are "dying". Not Snowcrows.

    No, it's not bad to teach someone a fault tolerant build. You've just saved tons of people HOURS of dealing with a bad PuG. O my gosh. i can't believe you just said that. You're right they don't have to teach anyone anything different, but it sure as heck doesn't make raiding more accessible, which is one of the major problems right now. It's definitely not improving things. If Anet wants to force everyone to play like an SC monkey, they could make the HP bars of bosses that much bigger.

    And again, you've failed to realize the actual problem.

    The player has to want to learn. Most players that make a bad PUG experience don't want to learn. They want to be handed a magical build that will work perfectly no matter what they do. They think just copying and pasting a build will make them suddenly masters of their class.

    No amount of fault tolerant builds will fix that. They may just not die as much, but at what cost to the content in the long run? Players that learn bad habits. Groups with players that still fail at the fault tolerant builds may find themselves not doing enough DPS for DPS checks if too many are running fault tolerant builds - even if most aren't failing at it. The lack of pressure to improve due to challenge.

    The problem will still exist.

    Why would you assume someone is so stupid that they can't learn the meta build? Learning the meta build does not mean that that's the build they run in the end or that even run at all. Once they learn the build, they can adjust to fit their limitations and will understand what they need to tell a group they join that they'll need to be able to provide.

    Why would you want someone to only learn a build that will just promote bad habits? If they aren't taught the meta build, they won't understand what their margin of error is. They'll be under a false sense of security.

  • Mack.3045Mack.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.
    Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

    Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.
    What people dont understand is, that snowcrows is a speedkill-guild and not the average random LFG raid. They know how to play their classes, what the bosses do and why and when they use certain traits or skill. Also their DPS is significantly higher that the DPS of the normal GW2 raider, allowing them to skip boss phases or mechanics.

    With shorter phases you need lesser boon duration, less heal or even 1 less healer. You can sacrifice boon uptime and heal for more DPS to make the bosskill even faster.

    BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.
    And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.
    It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down and need to be rezzed and all of that makes the fights even longer.

    All of that will happen in an average or random raid, but the snowcrows meta doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able to skip phases with dps.

    As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid, because with it, most of the time, boon uptimes are short and heal and cc is not enough. And then people wipe with a normal raid, try again, wipe again and so on. But wiping 10 times with a speedkill setup is still slower, than killing the boss safe first or second try with a non speedkill setup were maybe the bossfight is 1-2 minutes longer.

    Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight, especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank. Have one Healer for each Group with full healing gear. If the group still takes too much damage, bring a 2nd Banner Warrior and use all 4 Banners. If there are a lot of projectiles, use classes that have projectile reflect/block. If damage to group still is too high, use a 3rd Healer or get hybrid healers into the raid, for example condition necros who take the one big shadow trait. Even with full dps equip they can buff shield to 10 people then.
    And always be prepared to compensate mistakes, because in a normal raid, mistakes will happen. With a speedkill setup a mistake is most of the time a wipe. But if you can compensate it with more heal, higher boonduration, aegis, stability, reflects or whatever there is, you will survive mistakes.

    Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow, even if they dont know why. And there are a lot of people out there who dont even accept anything that is not meta, but which would actually help their raid kill a boss. With such people most of the time you will just get flamed or kicked out of the raid if you suggest bringing another healer or a 2nd warrior or a necro for addclear etc. People only know "thats not meta" and thats it.
    Also the sc meta makes people not think about their classes. They copy the build/traits but dont know what the traits do. And then they are surprised like "oh my skill does now immobilize/reflect/something else as well? Where did that come from?"
    But the result of this is, that people dont know their classes like they should for raids.

    So raiders out there, dont just copy everything from Snowcrows. You and your raid is not like them and will never be, so instead of copying their speedkill meta find out what works for your raid and adjust your raid according to your playstyle.

    I think your thread title is intentionally click-bait and a disrespect to the team @ Snowcrows who have provided the information freely to those interested.
    You state that you acknowledge "Snowcrows don't destroy random raids on intention"

    I think it would be fair to change the thread title

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But hey, whatever makes you feel special and prevents you from getting more of this game mode you supposedly love, right?

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

  • Blumpf.2518Blumpf.2518 Member ✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    Another Problem with the SC Website is, that though there is Information, what people actually do in reality is:

    • Lookup if Boss is a Power or Condi Boss
    • Lookup what Class is recommended for that Boss
    • Lookup the max DPS build for that class
    • ignore everything else

    A simple fix would be to recommend not the max dps class/build on their site, but something thats better suited for LFG groups. Something like:

    Boss: Wing X Boss Y
    Recommended Class / Build for LFG: A safer group supporting build with maybe 90-95% of max possible DPS
    Recommended Class / Build for Speedkills: A high-risk-high-reward, but squishy ego build with low group support

    And the safer builds are not bad or completely useless, their max dps output is just a bit lower than the meta builds.
    We're talking here about if the max dps meta build can deal 35k dps at the golem, than a safer build is still able to deal about 32k or so. And under realistic circumstances at a real bossfight the dps diffrence between a meta build and a safer build is even lower.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

    "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
    and
    "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

  • What Seera.5916 basically said is: "If you want to learn how to drive a car, go to the formula 1 racing track first and learn how to drive that highspeed car that can get people killed. And once you are able to do that, slow down to the level that works for you and drive your Toyota at the speed that you want."
    Which is of course total bullkitten.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?
    They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

    "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
    and
    "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

    Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

    Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

    Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

    You're suggesting we just give people fish.

    I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

    And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

    And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

    It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

    And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

    I haven't raided because I don't want to be that one player that drags down the group because I can't get my act together and learn my class. So I'm looking at this from the aspect of the people you think Snowcrows is causing a problem for. When I know full well what my problem is: it's not the lack of builds that fit my skill level, it's my lack of desire to learn my class.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?
    They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

    They can do what they want. But they're not getting a cent from me until they actually start caring about helping normal people clear.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

    "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
    and
    "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

    Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

    Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

    Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

    You're suggesting we just give people fish.

    I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

    And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

    And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

    I'm not claiming that it's wasted time. I'm claiming not adjusting strategy when it makes sense is. Your wording implies that it's cutting other people off from an opportunity. You're also claiming it's handing out freebies, nothing about raiding in this game is a freebie. You can still fail SH on a more fault tolerant strategy. You're totally taking me and the OP the wrong way. Raiding in this game is hard. With or without a strategy because of the mechanics. The idiot thing is implicit: you're basically assuming people who don't want to do things the hard way are bad or stupid.

    It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

    And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

    If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

  • Seera.5916Seera.5916 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

    "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
    and
    "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

    Again you are MISSING THE POINT.

    Telling someone to do X doesn't help them.

    Reminds me of a saying that I'm paraphrasing: Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for life.

    You're suggesting we just give people fish.

    I'm saying we teach people the meta: even if it's just verbal or read off of a site. Here's the meta, here's why. If people know the whys, they can adjust the build to their current skill level. You can go: "It's meta for elementalists to use the conjured weapons because they have the highest DPS skills, but you can swap to X if you don't like the conjured weapons. You'll just need to make sure your group can provide X if the boss manages to go into Y phase due to the drop in DPS."

    And no where did I say the first. I never once stated that anyone was an idiot if they didn't want to do something.

    And since when is time wasted if you're learning something? I'd rather spend 3 hours failing something and learning why than succeed on something the first try. Because we actually learn more from failing than succeeding. If we want to.

    I'm not claiming that it's wasted time. I'm claiming not adjusting strategy when it makes sense is. Your wording implies that it's cutting other people off from an opportunity. You're also claiming it's handing out freebies, nothing about raiding in this game is a freebie. You can still fail SH on a more fault tolerant strategy. You're totally taking me and the OP the wrong way. Raiding in this game is hard. With or without a strategy because of the mechanics. The idiot thing is implicit: you're basically assuming people who don't want to do things the hard way are bad or stupid.

    It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

    And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

    If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

    I perfectly understand what you and the OP are claiming. That it's Snowcrows fault at why people aren't successful at raiding.

    The thing is, just giving people a safer build handicaps them more than it helps them in the long run.

    If they don't understand the meta and why the meta is what it is and what difference their build has from the meta, then they'll be in trouble when they get to their next group on that build. They won't know to tell them that they've sacrificed X skill for survivability. Then that new group doesn't know that they need to make sure they account for the loss of what that skill would have brought to the table. And what the skill the player does have brings to the table.

    This doesn't mean having the player play the meta build. Just learn it and understand it. So that they know why their build doesn't meet meta. So that they can tell groups they join about what they don't bring to table and what they do compared to the meta. So that the other players can adjust accordingly.

    Which again goes back to the player wanting to learn being the key point. You can go over a meta build or a safe build, but if a player doesn't want to learn it then you might as well have let them randomly choose their traits and skills. Because going up against a training dummy is one thing, but start applying that to an actual boss that does mechanics and rotations get thrown off even for players who are skilled. Its just the skilled players know better when and how to adjust their rotation to account for the mechanics to get back to the max DPS rotation as quickly as possible. And it takes some desire to get past the initial while it takes to get the muscle memory for the new build and learn a boss and the mechanics.

    I don't need to raid to know that Snowcrows isn't destroying raiding by not offering safer builds.

    I'm very literal. If I don't say it explicitly, I probably don't mean it that way. I say what I mean. I'm definitely not saying or even implying that if someone doesn't want to play meta that they're an idiot. Or I'd be calling myself an idiot. I main ele and hate conjured weapons. My current build doesn't have a conjured weapon on it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    That was an example, you seem to have not understood it:

    The complaint of this thread is: Snowcrows caters only to the elite players and should provide other builds as well.

    That complaint is untrue, easily dis-proven by people who actually took their time to READ through the provided material and what is made available. The guides make extensive recommendations as to how to make life easier on one self.

    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    No one is going to do the thinking for you.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But hey, whatever makes you feel special and prevents you from getting more of this game mode you supposedly love, right?

    So what you are telling me: individual players make changes to their compositions or run content differently depending on how they deem it necessary or comfortable. Likely on builds from SC or other players btw, but let's omit that fact. Yes, I agree. As mentioned by me earlier: people should be less of tools and think for themselves.

    That's not me being special. That's me not being a tool and criticizing the free flow of information. It's almost like everything by now needs a disclaimer: DON'T BE AN IDIOT AND CARE WITH HOW YOU USE THIS INFORMATION!

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    It's just too many people are focused on the rewards and not actually learning. And part of that is on ANet for not doing a better job at getting players to learn basic mechanics like CC and combo fields.

    And by the way: I've never raided (hence the lack of a proper example above). I fall into the group of people who doesn't feel like learning their class well enough. No amount of fault tolerant builds are going to change that or make me clear something easier. Fault tolerant builds sacrifice DPS for survivability. You trade extra time due to wipes to extra time due to DPS. When the former can be reduced through learning, but the former can't be reduced because max DPS of a build is max DPS of a build.

    If you never raided then why are you arguing with people who have about something you don't understand.

    I love it. You went full circle. Man I wish I was bored enough to look up some of the responses YOU got before you got your first raid kills (btw by your own account after finally joining a decent training group with good commander. Let's blame those players for not taking MORE of their time and training MORE people. They could obviously do it, they are just to lazy to. Its their fault not enough people get into raiding!). The prime example of what toxicity looks like once one is "in the group". Wow, I could not have shown this better off. Thank you. I hope the irony of your approach is not lost on you.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    I love it. You went full circle. Man I wish I was bored enough to look up some of the responses YOU got before you got your first raid kills. The prime example of what toxicity looks like once one is "in the group". Wow, I could not have shown this better off. Thank you.

    Actually I never posted here about raiding before raiding first. So no. people were saying I was inexperienced because I only did a few bosses. My thoughts on the community haven't changed much.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safe" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so given how the vast majority of their builds recommendation are NOT meta builds and even their guides go into extensive detail how these NOT meta builds can be played or adapted.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    First off, okay if you are this heel bent on "winning" the internet, I will not engage you any longer.

    Second:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier. Eat that kitten!

    That only shows that they do not cater to the players who don't even know their own skills or how attributes work. Which basically just reinforces my claim that you can dumb down things as much as you want, there will always be dumber players for whom this is not enough.

    If you can't piece together how to approach this fight when there is a disclaimer, which you also quoted btw, then no one can help you:
    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    The aren is not recommended because in fact:
    A. the utility of aren is mentioned specifically under aren
    B. it is far better to take a condition renegade with RR along to cover any gaps (which both does not to change or get extra gear, and the damage loss is significantly lower than switching to power)

    It's once again just a simple thing of reading enough material and UNDERSTANDING or thinking about the fights. Yes, SC does not custom build your low skill compositions. They merely provide you with the tools to custom build one yourself if required.

    So to summarize again: you have not yet shown that SC is only catering to only meta builds or top tier players, when in fact most of their builds and explanations are for NOT meta builds. All you have shown is that there is people unable to read or make use of all the material provided to them.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    First off, okay if you are this heel bent on "winning" the internet, I will not engage you any longer.

    Second:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier. Eat that kitten!

    That only shows that they do not cater to the players who don't even know their own skills or how attributes work. Which basically just reinforces my claim that you can dumb down things as much as you want, there will always be dumber players for whom this is not enough.

    If you can't piece together how to approach this fight when there is a disclaimer, which you also quoted btw, then no one can help you:
    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    The aren is not recommended because in fact:
    A. the utility of aren is mentioned specifically under aren
    B. it is far better to take a condition renegade with RR along to cover any gaps (which both does not to change or get extra gear, and the damage loss is significantly lower than switching to power)

    It's once again just a simple thing of reading enough material and UNDERSTANDING or thinking about the fights. Yes, SC does not custom build your low skill compositions. They merely provide you with the tools to custom build one yourself if required.

    So to summarize again: you have not yet shown that SC is only catering to only meta builds or top tier players, when in fact most of their builds and explanations are for NOT meta builds. All you have shown is that there is people unable to read or make use of all the material provided to them.

    So you highlight a bit about toughness when we're talking about instant death walls. How does that even make sense? It's like missing the forest for the trees. And I've seen trainers not suggest not doing CS. That's the problem. People follow these verbatim without a kill in mind, that's what the OP is saying. Also they're going into tons of detail about other, much smaller things. I totally disagree with you here. Sure people can use their brains, but the guides are not written with ease of mechanics in mind and the nitpicky detail on minor things while ignoring death walls is a great example of what the OP is talking about.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

    Let me explain then.
    Cyns point was that
    1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
    2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

    Let me explain then.
    Cyns point was that
    1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
    2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.

    And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

    Let me explain then.
    Cyns point was that
    1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
    2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.

    And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.

    Guides and recommendations are not written with a "go in, do it immediately without failing" in mind. The death wall hardly needs a warning. It is both explained on the official bosses wiki:

    Surging Souls spawn off-platform and move across the platform in a random selection of predetermined patterns, defeating players on touch.

    As well as one of the most noticeable attacks a boss can have. You will notice it when touching it. There is no need to explain to people: please don't touch this and be prepared to move a lot. Every semi sentient being should pick up on that after two or three tries.

    Also no, SC guide are certainly not written with "people on their skill level". Many of their guides revolve around builds and tactics they don't even use themselves regularly. Which becomes very obvious for players who alternate between different skilled groups and have to make alterations on things themselves (like myself when I help out friends in the more casual raid guilds I am in, versus the full clear static Mondays). The SC builds and guides are custom tailored to probably a midfield skilled player while giving enough guidance for new players to start practicing and improving.

    The nit-picky details are literally minor things which can make a significant difference but require little attention. Not standing in front of her is a SIGNIFICANT damage decrease to the squad while easily achieved by slightly aware players. Giving aegis right before the circle below the group fills up also again reduces damage significantly while requiring little to no attention from guardians or mesmers. Those guides are guides for how to improve with that class, they are not complete boss guides.

    The problem with low hanging fruit is always the same: there is someone smaller who will still not be able to reach it, no matter how many types of stairs you try to reach that person.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

    Let me explain then.
    Cyns point was that
    1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
    2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.

    And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.

    Guides and recommendations are not written with a "go in, do it immediately without failing" in mind. The death wall hardly needs a warning. It is both explained on the official bosses wiki:

    Surging Souls spawn off-platform and move across the platform in a random selection of predetermined patterns, defeating players on touch.

    As well as one of the most noticeable attacks a boss can have. You will notice it when touching it. There is no need to explain to people: please don't touch this and be prepared to move a lot. Every semi sentient being should pick up on that after two or three tries.

    Also no, SC guide are certainly not written with "people on their skill level". Many of their guides revolve around builds and tactics they don't even use themselves regularly. Which becomes very obvious for players who alternate between different skilled groups and have to make alterations on things themselves (like myself when I help out friends in the more casual raid guilds I am in, versus the full clear static Mondays). The SC builds and guides are custom tailored to probably a midfield skilled player while giving enough guidance for new players to start practicing and improving.

    The nit-picky details are literally minor things which can make a significant difference but require little attention. Not standing in front of her is a SIGNIFICANT damage decrease to the squad while easily achieved by slightly aware players. Giving aegis right before the circle below the group fills up also again reduces damage significantly while requiring little to no attention from guardians or mesmers. Those guides are guides for how to improve with that class, they are not complete boss guides.

    The problem with low hanging fruit is always the same: there is someone smaller who will still not be able to reach it, no matter how many types of stairs you try to reach that person.

    I could use the same logic for any of the other mechanics you explained on death walls, for me it's like "no kitten I woudln't want to take more damage, why wouldn't I have toughness!?". I find the OP's sentiments far from wrong. I'm glad you're adaptable when working with various skill levels. Not all raid trainers are. And even some people, if you request in a ping on RA, will not be tolerant for suggesting a particular comp to counter something. Which is ridiculous in context IMO.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    lol what is this?

    It's readily apparent some have not actually read the Snowcrows site and pass it off as some kind of boogeyman. There's a large variety of builds on the site, and not all of them are meta. There's even a bar that tells you how easy it is to play. Nowhere on the site does it say "you must only play a few builds" and brings up some builds are good on some bosses, certain adjustments, etc. It is, in fact, the complete opposite of what it is being described in this thread.

    The hatred of excellence has been a blight on this game, and this thread a good example. Sure, some people may blindly follow a SC build and fail with it, but it's false to think they wouldn't be doing the same with snowcrows, but probably with an even worse build. I mean, pve in this game isn't that complex and most random builds people have are just not good at what they do.

    If anything,. this anti-meta hate is simply its own kind of arrogance, because one is also trying to tell people what's best for them (even more so than Snowcrows) because they are stupid. Except this one has not the substance to back it up, and simply exists as a mountain of salt.

  • Blumpf.2518Blumpf.2518 Member ✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    The Snowcrows Metas goal is: "Kill the boss as fast as possible."
    And NOT "kill the boss".
    With the goal "Kill the boss as fast as possible", everything that can make the fight easier is sacrificed for DPS if possible. And that is the problem cause it makes the fights harder for all the people who dont have the SC raid composition, skill, classes, Gold to buy 18x +5 Infusions, dps, perfect rotas etc.
    With that SC goal in mind people nerf and cripple their raid and remove a lot of stuff from it that makes it easier to actually kill the boss.
    If you play the SC meta, you should always know that this meta aims at speedkills.

    But with the goal "Kill the boss", you have so much more possibilities.
    For example, back in the time some months ago, when firebrand still got 250 toughness from quickness, the tank had to have more than 1250 toughness or firebrand would be the tank. So i decided to switch 3 Harrier Items of my druid for Minstrel gear, increasing toughness and vitality to 1236, which was still lower than the firebrands toughness, so it was no problem at all. It didnt affect the healing or the boons of my druid but it was so much more relaxing to play cause incoming damage was lower and hitpoints were higher. It was so much easier to play only because of some more toughness and vitality and cause i didnt really have to care about staying alive, cause even when i got hit by something it wouldnt hit as hard as before. Only because of 3 items changed. You can still do this on almost all healer classes as long as the tank has more toughness than the healer and it makes raids so much easier for you.

    Or another example, as Warrior i play Core Warrior. Why, because Battle Standard can rezz a lot of downstate players instantly. In LFG people will go down and if there are like 5 people down its usually a wipe. So playing not meta can prevent a group wipe. Berserkers have Headbutt as Elite, so they cant take it. Well they could take it, but then their CC sucks. Also Core Warrior has 1000 Toughness instead of 700 like Berserker, so incoming Damage is lower. My Mace F1 is always ready, and not only when in berserker mode, so i can do a lot of CC. I can freely choose between Bolas and Kick (immobilize or even more CC) and since im playing with healing signet, thats a skill less i have to use which makes the rota easier. Theres no berserker mode which makes the rota easier again. And the funny thing is, while at the training golem the berserker does more damage in theory or benchmarks, in lfg raids i outdps the berserkers most of the time. And what is great as core is the empower allies trait. +100 Power for everyone in the group. And while it doesnt add to my DPS it increases the DPS of other players, so basically it comes from my core warrior and is just not shown in ark dps. If you have a core warrior in a power group you can add +5k dps on top of the core warriors dps, cause thats the dps others do more, but the reason for it is the warriors empower allies trait.

    And yet another example, as alac renegade most people will use the power based diviner build cause in theory it does a lot of dps. In reality however people will most of the time deal about 10k dps with it. So why not use the renegade as a healer that grants Alac. Use a Healfirebrand in Group 1, a HealAlac Renegade in Group 2 and add a Chrono for quickness in group 2 and thats it. Most people dont even see that possibility and play something like 2xfirebrand+druid+alacren. And since theyre not really good at it, their metabuilds will most of the time perform bad. And another funny thing with HealAlac Renegade is if you take the "replesnishing despair" trait from the corruption traitline - which might seem weird at first - you can activate the bubble of the tablet and you wont lose energy. With that one trait, you can have a permanent bubble that blocks all projectiles while the tablet constantly heals the people inside the bubble. Its great at all bosses that use projectiles like Sloth Adds or the Adina Hands or the Sabir Lightning Adds on the platforms. It just makes life so much easier for everyone in the raid.

    And there are a lot more of ways to play out there that will only slightly reduce the overall Raid-DPS, but will increase the raids survivability so much and help the people kill the boss.
    But the SC meta completely ignores this options and that makes raids harder for people who think they are using the "best" build.

    For SC "best build" means that this build will allow the raid to get a new speedkill world record, if the boss is killed.
    But for the average player "best build" most of the time means: "This build will not cause a wipe and allow our raid to kill the boss".
    And then the meta and that SC are the reference kicks in and people suddenly think that SC builds are best for the goals of average players, while the truth is that this SC builds will drag average players down and make raiding harder for them.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blumpf.2518 said:

    And yet another example, as alac renegade most people will use the power based diviner build cause in theory it does a lot of dps. In reality however people will most of the time deal about 10k dps with it. So why not use the renegade as a healer that grants Alac

    Umm...

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/revenant/renegade/heal/

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    The Snowcrows Metas goal is: "Kill the boss as fast as possible."
    And NOT "kill the boss".
    With the goal "Kill the boss as fast as possible", everything that can make the fight easier is sacrificed for DPS if possible. And that is the problem cause it makes the fights harder for all the people who dont have the SC raid composition, skill, classes, Gold to buy 18x +5 Infusions, dps, perfect rotas etc.
    With that SC goal in mind people nerf and cripple their raid and remove a lot of stuff from it that makes it easier to actually kill the boss.
    If you play the SC meta, you should always know that this meta aims at speedkills.

    This is absolutely untrue. I've already mentioned that the vast majority of builds on the SC site are NOT meta and certainly not designed as speedkill builds. As are the guides accompanying them them.

    Your entire premise is incorrect from the get go.

    SC give detailed builds and guides for a variety of skill levels and most are in fact neither meta, nor recommended on many bosses (some even on none). Yet there are still guides and advice for them. That does require someone actually READ through the site though. I mean sure, we could demand SC use some kind of text to speech program and upload voiced guides, but I fear then the not English speaking community might feel offended and demand the guides also get translated into each and every language.

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    But with the goal "Kill the boss", you have so much more possibilities.
    For example, back in the time some months ago, when firebrand still got 250 toughness from quickness, the tank had to have more than 1250 toughness or firebrand would be the tank. So i decided to switch 3 Harrier Items of my druid for Minstrel gear, increasing toughness and vitality to 1236, which was still lower than the firebrands toughness, so it was no problem at all. It didnt affect the healing or the boons of my druid but it was so much more relaxing to play cause incoming damage was lower and hitpoints were higher. It was so much easier to play only because of some more toughness and vitality and cause i didnt really have to care about staying alive, cause even when i got hit by something it wouldnt hit as hard as before. Only because of 3 items changed. You can still do this on almost all healer classes as long as the tank has more toughness than the healer and it makes raids so much easier for you.

    Yes, and? Should the SC website not cater to each and every minor change and gear available? What about compositions that did not use Firebrand?

    You are expecting that others do the entire work in minute detail for everyone. That is impossible. The website and thereby the SC players give guidelines and advice as best they can. They will NOT be able to think for each and every other player.

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    Or another example, as Warrior i play Core Warrior. Why, because Battle Standard can rezz a lot of downstate players instantly. In LFG people will go down and if there are like 5 people down its usually a wipe. So playing not meta can prevent a group wipe. Berserkers have Headbutt as Elite, so they cant take it. Well they could take it, but then their CC sucks. Also Core Warrior has 1000 Toughness instead of 700 like Berserker, so incoming Damage is lower. My Mace F1 is always ready, and not only when in berserker mode, so i can do a lot of CC. I can freely choose between Bolas and Kick (immobilize or even more CC) and since im playing with healing signet, thats a skill less i have to use which makes the rota easier. Theres no berserker mode which makes the rota easier again. And the funny thing is, while at the training golem the berserker does more damage in theory or benchmarks, in lfg raids i outdps the berserkers most of the time. And what is great as core is the empower allies trait. +100 Power for everyone in the group. And while it doesnt add to my DPS it increases the DPS of other players, so basically it comes from my core warrior and is just not shown in ark dps. If you have a core warrior in a power group you can add +5k dps on top of the core warriors dps, cause thats the dps others do more, but the reason for it is the warriors empower allies trait.

    You realize, half the things you wrote are nonsense. The rest has nothing to do with core versus berserker.

    Berserker warriors can take Battle Standard just as much as any core warrior. Can equip maces just like a core warrior and decide not to use their burst skill. The berserker can equip Kick or Bolas, last I checked core warriors do not gain an additional utility slot.

    I don't even want to get into your toughness argument. not sure where you got that one from even. There is no toughness difference between core or berserker unless different gear is used.

    The only difference between core and berserker is 1 trait line and the change in the burst skill. So yes, if you value that 1 trait-line above the mandated Berserker trait-line then core makes sense. Your Skull Crack F1 Mace will do 100 defiance bar damage per adrenaline bar (300 at 3 bars adrenaline), the Spellbreaker Skull Grinder does 100 defiance bar damage per adrenaline bar and can be used multiple times (as a matter of fact, if combined with Blood Reckoning, it is possible to chain 3 Skull Grinders within a shorter timespan than 1 Skull Crack cooldown).

    Last I checked, there is a tactics variant even on the SC website for Empower Allies and Double Standards: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/berserker/power banner/

    All one needs to do is READ.

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    And yet another example, as alac renegade most people will use the power based diviner build cause in theory it does a lot of dps. In reality however people will most of the time deal about 10k dps with it. So why not use the renegade as a healer that grants Alac.

    No person worth their salt argues or says that power alac does good damage. It's pretty much known that power alac is used because it allows for Heal Firebrand or other healers to get used because heal renegade is very ground target tied and VERY unflexible in which legends it can take versus power. Sorry, you are 100% incorrect on WHY aren is being used and it is most certainly not used for "a lot of dps".

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    Use a Healfirebrand in Group 1, a HealAlac Renegade in Group 2 and add a Chrono for quickness in group 2 and thats it. Most people dont even see that possibility and play something like 2xfirebrand+druid+alacren.

    Most people play that comp because:
    A. might and fury uptime is almost guaranteed on a druid and that quickbrand in your second group will NOT provide 25 might and neither will the chrono
    B. it is far easier to run something which moves easier than heal renegade or maintain the flexibility on the 2nd heal slot by bringing druid (allowing for tempest or heal necro which will be far better than a heal ren in weaker groups).
    C. don't have access to every single custom build left and right. New players struggle already with getting 1-2 characters geared. Expecting custom tailored builds like boonthief, heal renegade etc. is not efficient.
    D. it's far easier to just take a dps loss but guaranteed 10 player alacrity without having to shuffle around the composition, thus sacrificing a dps slot, instead of having to shuffle healers constantly

    Going to skip the rest because by this point I just don't feel like having to correct the assumptions made. Suffice to say, you are a pretty good example of someone who "thinks" he has an understanding of meta or compositions, but are actually incorrect most of the time of why things are run.

    You'd do well on reading a bit more on the SC site instead of making up assumptions tbh.

  • Blumpf.2518Blumpf.2518 Member ✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    And here we go again with claims that are just not true. You dont seem to know what the classes are capable of and what not or you wouldnt say such things. Or maybe for you its just "alternative facts" or so, i dont know.

  • @Blumpf.2518 said:
    And here we go again with claims that are just not true. You dont seem to know what the classes are capable of and what not or you wouldnt say such things.

    So if sc got banned shut down it will get better? Ppl will go to meta battle until that get shut down

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    And here we go again with claims that are just not true. You dont seem to know what the classes are capable of and what not or you wouldnt say such things. Or maybe for you its just "alternative facts" or so, i dont know.

    Sure whatever you say m8. I'm not the one calling aren with it's around 25k bench (if at all) a high damage class. Nor will I take a heal renegade over a heal scrouge or heal tempest when wanting to carry a group, but you do you.

  • @Blumpf.2518 said:
    If you have a core warrior in a power group you can add +5k dps on top of the core warriors dps, cause thats the dps others do more, but the reason for it is the warriors empower allies trait.

    Uhm EA doesn't provide you with +5k dps. First of all even during benchmark scenarios you barely get 1k dps out of it and second of all, you won't have 4 other dps classes in the same subgroup hitting for 38k each. EA is basically worthless on your 10k dps pug. There is a point to be made for taking it, but that's not it.

  • Antioche.7034Antioche.7034 Member ✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Seera.5916 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Such entitlement to expect others to teach you how to play the game.

    I think it's entitlement to defend terrible metas, people teaching them and then whine when no one plays the game mode. Gee whose fault is that?

    No one is "teaching" the SC "meta". Most raiders, and by that I mean players who raid beyond those 1-2 initial raids where they got carried by benevolent experienced trainers, know what SC is as a resource.

    The site itsself has extensive information one ca read up on, especially under the writen guides for each class and build. A vast majoroty of the builds aren't even meta, just good builds to run. As such they are already providing a vast amount of information and guides which are off meta and safer. There is an entire ranking of how difficult a build is and how well it performs on specific bosses. That's not something needed for top tier players.

    The complaint here is not that SC is providing only meta builds and should provide "safer" builds, given how they already provid substantial non meta builds and go out of their way to explain how to play them. The argument in this thread is literally: the SC builds are not safe enough for some players. Well how safe is safe enough? You could make a setup which is nearly unkillable, the famous multi scourge raid setup for example, and there would still be players for whom this would be not safe enough. The issue with "safety" is that it's completely subjective and dependant on a players skill. That's something each and every player has to figure out for themselves (or within their squad).

    The problem here is the complaint put forth targets an issue of ability, lack of reading comprehension, lack of desire to understand, lack of desire to improve, etc. In short: human ignorance and lazyness. Instead of putting the blame with the individual though, it is put with the group who try to provide information and share their findings/knowledge. The self pity and entitlement is off the charts with this line of thinking.

    Sure the 98% of players who just don't bother with raids are stupid, entitled idiots. Super healthy opinion to have of the community. Honestly the community will give you flack for trying something different even in Strike missions.

    Can you point me to the link in snow crows for the nigh unkillable scourge comp?

    Also i can personally attest to people bending over backwards to match meta while having a few good trainers who make safer comps and we actually pass the boss. SH being my most famous experience with this. Also people give me flack for running 3 heals in WoJ runs. We have like 80-90% 1-shot pug rates with that. I mean you can blame the community all you want for being idiots but i think snow crows doesn't put enough emphasis on changing strategy to actually clear.

    But those players who were just handed those safer comps were hurt unless the trainers took time to make sure they understood the reasons why they chose certain traits and skills over others.

    Snowcrows aren't aiming at just clearing. They're aiming at the meta. The meta will more than just clear content.

    And no one is saying that a majority of players don't want to learn. Just that bad PUG's tend to have these players in them. Because to me, even if a group doesn't clear the content before the group disbands, if improvements were made, then that's a win. The next group they get into they'll be able to take that improvement and improve further and maybe clear it the next time. And no amount of giving them builds or spending time with them is going to change them. They have to change for themselves.

    Your getting on a site who has no part of this problem. You think giving out fault tolerant builds will help but it's just a crutch and many will rely on that crutch too much and be more harmed than helped by it. They won't strive to improve to not needing the fault tolerant build. Key word being strive, some people may just not be able to improve enough given their own limitations at a specific time.

    Players should learn the meta and then back it down to just the level that works for them. Not start at the most tolerant and work towards meta. That's just a recipe for bad habits being learned.

    I disagree. There's nothing wrong with telling Chronos not to use CS on SH and/or taking extra alac with a ren. It's just plain sense when you have so many instant death mechanics running around that you want one less thing to have to manage before you react to it. This, arrogant elitism you just displayed is exactly the problem.

    "Let's make this as hard as we possibly can and then treat people like idiots if they don't want to do that".
    and
    "Let's waste hours of our time learning it"

    Sorry to tell you that your own arrogance is everywhere in your posts, as you point out on others.
    Sorry to tell you that not everybody considers that taking hours to learn is a waste of time.
    Sorry to tell you that not everybody find raids fun just because they kill a boss in any manner, be it with two, three, four, nine healers.
    Sorry to tell you that not everybody wants pugging experience to be "safer".
    Sorry to tell you that not everybody wants raids to be "more accessible", by making pugging experience "safer".

    Making the game challenging by your own means when the base content really isn't is what makes raids fun for a bunch of people (Feel free to consider that it's 100 people only if you wish, it does not change my poiny whatsoever). What you call "plain sense" really isn't plain sense, just a point of view that I (or rather we, since I'm apparently not the only one to disagree) am free not to share.

    I don't want to play with people who are not making any efforts and need a reduced difficulty level, therefore ruining my own fun. You can make changes to pugging LFG if you wish, but it will probably end up the same way it is now, with requirements.

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The example of the unkillable scourge comp was just that, an example. They could put that up and literally someone like you would come and complain: "oh but this composition is not to my liking because of XYZ, Snowcrows is only cartering to players that I do not identify with. It's their fault!" Hence why I specifically mentioned that survival and safety of a composition is SUBJECTIVE and requires players find out for themselves.

    I love how you talk about something and then fail to prove it, just like in our other discussions.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/scourge/heal/
    Heal scourge is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/necromancer/reaper/power/
    Power Reaper is not meta.
    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/necromancer/scourge/condition/
    Scourge is only meta on SH, yet there are extensive tutorials for almost every boss IF one should bring one.

    I could literally link multiple builds for each and every class according to that pattern. Is that proof enough for you?

    You were claiming there was a raid full of them. Is this you just deciding that it's a nigh unkillable comp capable of bringing stuff down or did you actually hear about it?

    Teapot used the comp right when wing 7 released. They cleared wing 7 in a slower time than the speedrun guilds, but significantly easier.

    Again, you seem to not understand what an example is. The example of a full scourge roster, one of the easiest compositions to play, was just meant as an example that eventually someone will always complain that even that composition is not "safde" or easy enough or the other old classic: the content needs adjusting.

    O you mean like it doesn't match the video and you were making it up as I see chronos and renegades too.

    Also don't side step the issue: you claimed that SC has no non meta builds and should cater to players who do not run meta builds. Please prove that they are not doing so.

    I have an example, right here, from one of the boss guides, quoting here in case they change it, on my toy example of SH:

    "**If you are confident in yourself and your group, you can run Condition Boon Chronomancer instead. This choice will be best used by experienced Power Boon Chronomancers, as it’s playstyle, while rewarding, is very difficult.

    This fight can create a lot of pressure on your Heal Druid, so feel free to take as much Toughness as you need to survive. There are no Toughness based aggro mechanics in this encounter.

    Take care when using
    Tides of Time
    as it can cause the Tormented Dead to be CC'd when the Heal Druid is attempting to Push them away.

    At the beginning of the encounter, you should first swap the aggro when the current tank reaches three stacks. After this point, you should swap aggro whenever your current stacks run out. Be sure to move Soulless Horror towards the wurms at the start of the fight, so your Condition Scourge can use
    Epidemic
    .

    Avoid moving through Soulless Horror, as her attacks hit very hard on the rest of your party. For example, her attack deals less damage to the tanks but will hit for a lot on your DPS classes.

    Try to Aegis the AoE attack,
    Vortex Slash
    , for your team. You have Inspiration which means you can use
    Signet of the Ether
    or
    Signet of Inspiration
    to share Aegis.

    Try to keep Soulless Horror near the centre of the platform, this will make it easier for your Heal Druid to push the Tormented Dead out and away from the centre. This will keep it clean of the explosions from the Tormented Dead,
    Soul Rift
    , and make it easier for your squad to move around. By staying in the middle, it will also cause the big walls not to spawn or will it??"**

    Where do they mention not using CS and perhaps having higher BD or an alacren healer to compensate (I guess alacren is part of the trinity they mention, but the main issue, CS is never mentioned)? Because it honestly makes the encounter WAY easier with avoiding death walls (I've had instances where even cancelling CS set me back too far in terms of movement/time lost to the point I couldn't avoid them). Eat that kitten! Once again, I proved you're full of kitten and the OP was right.

    https://snowcrows.com/raids/guides/mesmer/chronomancer/power boon/

    Funnily enough, you actually prove cyns point. About it never being good enough.

    It's a funny amount of detail for them to go into for such minor things while missing something so big. But sure you can think that.

    Let me explain then.
    Cyns point was that
    1) snowcrows does provide nonmeta builds so the question becomes how much non meta builds should they add.
    2)this amount will vary for different people and it will never be enough to satisfy everyone.

    And I'm saying missing a death wall over so many minor details proves that they're not thinking about normal people doing mechanics at all. They are literally writing the guides for people at their skill level, which was the OP's main point. Sure there's people who are probably incapable of doing some of these YET, there are some very easy, low hanging fruits they could easily put in their guides and the OP isn't crazy for pointing that out and that the community blindly follows these guides. In fact such nitpicky detail creates the illusion of exhaustive useful information and discourages critical thinking.

    Guides and recommendations are not written with a "go in, do it immediately without failing" in mind. The death wall hardly needs a warning. It is both explained on the official bosses wiki:

    Surging Souls spawn off-platform and move across the platform in a random selection of predetermined patterns, defeating players on touch.

    As well as one of the most noticeable attacks a boss can have. You will notice it when touching it. There is no need to explain to people: please don't touch this and be prepared to move a lot. Every semi sentient being should pick up on that after two or three tries.

    Also no, SC guide are certainly not written with "people on their skill level". Many of their guides revolve around builds and tactics they don't even use themselves regularly. Which becomes very obvious for players who alternate between different skilled groups and have to make alterations on things themselves (like myself when I help out friends in the more casual raid guilds I am in, versus the full clear static Mondays). The SC builds and guides are custom tailored to probably a midfield skilled player while giving enough guidance for new players to start practicing and improving.

    The nit-picky details are literally minor things which can make a significant difference but require little attention. Not standing in front of her is a SIGNIFICANT damage decrease to the squad while easily achieved by slightly aware players. Giving aegis right before the circle below the group fills up also again reduces damage significantly while requiring little to no attention from guardians or mesmers. Those guides are guides for how to improve with that class, they are not complete boss guides.

    The problem with low hanging fruit is always the same: there is someone smaller who will still not be able to reach it, no matter how many types of stairs you try to reach that person.

    I could use the same logic for any of the other mechanics you explained on death walls, for me it's like "no kitten I woudln't want to take more damage, why wouldn't I have toughness!?". I find the OP's sentiments far from wrong. I'm glad you're adaptable when working with various skill levels. Not all raid trainers are. And even some people, if you request in a ping on RA, will not be tolerant for suggesting a particular comp to counter something. Which is ridiculous in context IMO.

    So you wouldnt mind ifi i took a bearbow build ore core mm build i wont die so i am good enough right?

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?
    They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

    They can do what they want. But they're not getting a cent from me until they actually start caring about helping normal people clear.

    Uh, that's not their job, it's by their kindness they are sharing these builds to the public.

  • @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    They could recognize that they're the de facto source of information as it pertains to raiding and actually take responsibility for that position and say "These are the most fault tolerant setups for PuGs" and spend more time teaching average players instead of over emphasizing builds and setups with really high skill caps.

    Why should Snow Crows be take responsibility for the actions of other people, that have nothing to do with them?
    They only provide information. What other people do with that information doesn't fall into Snow Crows' territory.

    They can do what they want. But they're not getting a cent from me until they actually start caring about helping normal people clear.

    What? Does that mean we are not normal people ? :'(

  • Senfdieb.3985Senfdieb.3985 Member ✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    in lfg raids i outdps the berserkers most of the time.

    Can we get some logs? Maybe W1 and W5?