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Why SnowCrows is destroying Raiding

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  • I think you shouldn't in general not copy paste everything to 100% degree . Modifying your build to your needs or your groups is standard with all builds in every content e.g Discretize fractal build are so specific that copying them won't do you good in most cases. For most fractal runs you take HFB with you and you don't have such insane burst dmg and instead cc but they are build around this.

    I don't know much how the true meta is in PvE Raids but I know the so called Meta isn't the meta which people use in most cases. What I mean with this is :
    1.) Metabattles PvP(conquest) section are mostly a Twitch streamer collection of builds with a few exception and a lot of builds not listed.
    2) Metabattle WvW section and other sited are kinda the same a lot of Twitch streamer influence instead of looking for the optimal build on top of this WvW is in general very slow to adopt new builds. So the chances that there are better options then listed is really high.
    3.) Discretize builds are just for speed clear with no heal there are some people who run this but even in Cms they are about 10% of the players not more.
    4.) About Snow Crow we talked already

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    This was a painfull wall of text to read.

    @Blumpf.2518 said:
    Everyone who is raiding has heard of them. Snowcrows and their website with raidbuilds and recommendations what and how to play in raids.
    Unfortunately that leads to some problems.

    Almost everyone in the LFG tool is thinking that this is the "meta" and the only way to play, so the builds are just copied and the raidsetups too.

    "thinks"

    BUT the average raid doesnt exist of 10 SC members, instead you will most of the time have people whose DPS is lower, who dont know their classes well, or you have a suboptimal raid composition or people dont know everything about the boss or people just make mistakes.

    "instead most of the time you will have"

    And then you have a problem, because boss phases are longer. Boons will disappear because boon duration is bad, group takes more damage because protection is suddenly gone, area damage is ticking all the time and longer as the phase should be or heal is not enough.

    I... just don't know...

    It also happens that CC phases take really long cause people dont use their CC skill or are just spamming all skills instead of saving CC skills. And then people go down

    "because people don't"
    "Then people go down"

    doesnt consider this. Snowcrows meta is made for a high-dps group that doesnt makes mistakes who is able

    "doesn't"
    "doesn't make mistakes and is able"

    As average raid, the sc speedkill meta is nerfing your own raid,

    huh?

    Therefore i highly recommend for everyone who is not interested in speedkills, but just wants to raid to think about this. Bring higher Boondurations into the fight,

    "highly recommend everyone that is not interested"
    "wants to raid, think about this"
    "Boon durations"

    especially for quickness and Alacrity you want to have 100% boon duration. Use Full Tanks (Minstreal Gear) for bosses who deal a lot of damage to the tank.

    "Minstrel"
    "bosses that deal"

    Of course Snowcrows dont destroy random raids on intention, but out there are a lot of people for who the snowcrows raid meta is like a religion they have to follow,

    "doesn't destroy random raids intentionally. However there are a lot of people that see the snowcrows raid meta like a"

    and... more...

    Perfect grammar is not the key, but decent enough that it's not confusing would be nice to see.

    When you can't think of the right grammar, fall back to an intentional 'spoken style'.


    That out of the way.

    Meta builds and sites promoting them have been around for ages in MMOs. They repeatedly come under criticism by those who feel they narrow options or promote team comps regular players can perform well in. It is a valid concern, but I think players also tend to drift away from the meta builds in their own play as they figure out what they are good at doing. Without the meta suggestion, a lot of players would be much more aimless, and come to the group with a random set of gear, talents, and rotations.

    Do you remember Guild Wars 2 in 2013? The meta was essentially to mash your buttons faster than the other person, and to have exotic gear. Without some guidance, that would still be the meta. For a lot of players it is still the meta, sometimes complimented with a legendary weapon.

    There will always be PUG groups that demand tighter restrictions than they should, and those groups will have their problems as a result. Go into any MMO and you will find them.

    If not Snowcrows, it would be discretize, or metabattle, or people would still be quoting dulfy and wooden potatoes. Guides will always find their way into the conversation.

    Just say no to butt-flaps. | 光復香港 時代革命

  • @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    3.) Discretize builds are just for speed clear with no heal there are some people who run this but even in Cms they are about 10% of the players not more.

    https://discretize.eu/builds/guardian/heal-firebrand
    https://discretize.eu/builds/revenant/heal-renegade
    No heal. Okay.

    Maybe visit the website before you start spreading fake news.

    More info about Discretize pug builds and comps here https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/j214jo/discretize_dt_unorganized_groups_update/

  • I'd not blame Snowcrow. You can modify your build to fit your style. If you just copy and paste then try to run like them without understanding then its more likely fail in pug.
    They give you solid idea for build. You do your rotation. Try to understand why rotation are the way they are and simplify it to to pull 85 to 90% benchmark. You can still top the chart on pug.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2020

    it easy remove SC domination, make raids no so dependable from dps. Mechanic is main. Depend from mechanic, make ptv set main and common used fro new raids, and If raid will be killed is same time, and no matter is person make 2kdps or 22k dps the no one more will be look on sc biulds.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    it easy remove SC domination, make raids no so dependable from dps. Mechanic is main. Depend from mechanic, make ptv set main and common used fro new raids, and If raid will be killed is same time, and no matter is person make 2kdps or 22k dps the no one more will be look on sc biulds.

    There only 2 bosses that requires some what high dps. Other have long timer and/or soft enrage timer.
    Lets take vale guardian for example, usually training groups can kill him in 4 or 5 minutes but fight has timer of 8 minutes. If you go over that 8 minutes, boss just deals 200% more damage, nothing else. 2 healer setup can handle this.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Luci.7018Luci.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    it easy remove SC domination, make raids no so dependable from dps. Mechanic is main. Depend from mechanic, make ptv set main and common used fro new raids, and If raid will be killed is same time, and no matter is person make 2kdps or 22k dps the no one more will be look on sc biulds.

    That could work .
    For example max damage is capped to 10.000 per 10 sec to the boss , per person (or the boss looses 0,05% of his max hp per sec/per person) , while doing more dps/having berseker gear + exotic vs acentant gear , increase your personal rewards .

    That could work as ''easy mode'' , without reducing the damage/mechanics done from the boss .
    While the people can choose to push the ''normal'' mode (do fast dps - bosses won't heal himself), next to the CM button
    Now theres still the problem with KP and LFG..

    edit: because i barely understand the meaning of the algorithm . Make it so , while you do the normal dps rotation , the boss will go goes ''RAWR'' and heal himself . At the 0:10 sec mark at the start of the encounter , he heal hiself up to 99% , at 0:20 > 95%
    And a ''data base''? where each gear : ofensive vs defencing , exoti vs achentant acumilate ''diferent points'' and based on those points on the character sheet (like total Gear LvL in WoW) , rewards are offered + how much Actions Per Min you did multiply it ?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    it easy remove SC domination, make raids no so dependable from dps. Mechanic is main. Depend from mechanic, make ptv set main and common used fro new raids, and If raid will be killed is same time, and no matter is person make 2kdps or 22k dps the no one more will be look on sc biulds.

    There only 2 bosses that requires some what high dps. Other have long timer and/or soft enrage timer.
    Lets take vale guardian for example, usually training groups can kill him in 4 or 5 minutes but fight has timer of 8 minutes. If you go over that 8 minutes, boss just deals 200% more damage, nothing else. 2 healer setup can handle this.

    First, you've completely missed what @lare.5129 said. He wasn't talking about having lower dps requirements, but lower dps dependency (more on that below).
    Second, you're probably talking about experienced groups, not training ones (or "training ones" that are like ~7-8 veterans, and only 2-3 new players). It's extremely common for a training group to hit the enrage on VG. It's also extremely common, if the healers are training as well, for 2 of them to not really be enough even before enrage, much less later on.
    For training groups, it's completely normal to hit enrage on VG, Sabetha, Cairn, Samarog (and that's only first 4 wings - but then i wouldn't expect completely new groups to start on Dhuum or Largos). Of those, only Cairn enrage is pretty much easy to ignore. Sabetha is instant kill, Samarog gives you several seconds of leeway at most, and while enrage on VG only doubles the damage, the most i could see training groups last when hitting it was around a minute (and by the time you're good enough to last longer, you will likely never see enrage anymore).

    But back to the first point: Lare was not talking about boss having less hps or longer timer (and thus requiring less dps) - he was talking about lessening impact of dps on boss kill, where as long as you would do mechanics well, the kill time would be similar even with more secure setup/less dps done.
    Personally, i don't think this is a good idea - i don't like turning boss fights into their own minigames that completely circumvent already existing combat system. If you think that the combat system is so bad you need to do stuff like that, i'd rather the combat system got changed, instead of devs having to dance circles around it. So, the dps definitely should still have impact on kill times, even in cases where the kill is completely done thing as long as you do mechanics well. Still, that poses a problem - currently faster kill times means you need to do less mechanics than supposedly "safer" approach. If those mechanics matter (and they often do), that means the "safer" approach actually just gives you more chances to fail the fight.

    So, maybe the idea would be to:

    • remove or heavily weaken enrage (both soft and hard, as well as additional mechanics doubling as enrage on some fights)
    • attach mechanics not to certain timeframes, but only to the percentage of boss hp.

    So, if you'd go with lower dps setup, or you were just too concentrating on doing mechanics to do high dps, the fight would take longer, but the time between mechanics would also be longer, giving you more opportunity to recover in case something goes wrong. On the other hand, if you want to burn the boss faster, you could do it, but you would have to face more mechanics per unit of time.
    That might prevent you from skipping some mechanics that everyone is skipping now, though, which is probably not ideal as well.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • So, if you'd go with lower dps setup, or you were just too concentrating on doing mechanics to do high dps, the fight would take longer, but the time between mechanics would also be longer, giving you more opportunity to recover in case something goes wrong. On the other hand, if you want to burn the boss faster, you could do it, but you would have to face more mechanics per unit of time. Possibly this might also prevent you from skipping some of mechanics (although, since some mechanics - like Gorse world eater - take a certain amount of time from the point when they're triggered to the moment when they activate fully, they could probably be skipped still with high enough dps)

    This is my biggest issue. All meta Player wants to skip mechanics by pulling big numbers. Why even have mechanics, if you your goal is just skip it.
    Either remove the mechanics completely or keep it % base, so you must do it.
    This is why we have such a gap in our raid communities.

  • @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:
    This is my biggest issue. All meta Player wants to skip mechanics by pulling big numbers. Why even have mechanics, if you your goal is just skip it.
    Either remove the mechanics completely or keep it % base, so you must do it.
    This is why we have such a gap in our raid communities.

    Just talking from my perspective here, but i really dont wanna skip mechanics. The problem is that the game gives me the tools to do so. I would like for Sabir to not bend over during the last 25% and stop doing anything but auto attacks. I would like for Xera to actually do her laser. The game has way too much damage in the first place and bosses are not balanced around it either.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There only 2 bosses that requires some what high dps. Other have long timer and/or soft enrage timer.

    ou, it is so incurable gift ... but WHY we at all have enrage timer ????
    why at all we have some achievements in raid "do it on 5 minutes" ?? If this direction will be fixed - no one worried about SC

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There only 2 bosses that requires some what high dps. Other have long timer and/or soft enrage timer.

    ou, it is so incurable gift ... but WHY we at all have enrage timer ????
    why at all we have some achievements in raid "do it on 5 minutes" ?? If this direction will be fixed - no one worried about SC

    We have seen what no enrage timer does to content.

    Hint: players outtank it and start ignoring as many mechanics as they can via outhealing them. Similar as doing as much damage as possible to skip mechanics.

    You yourself have admitted to running up to 3 healers in fractals, which basically negates all difficulty and reduces the content to nothing but semi afk waiting out the time until the enemies are dead.

    The only way to prevent this, in both cases, is to introduce instant death mechanics which players can not skip or ignore.

    So, you want all mechanics to turn into instant death mechanics? Is that it?

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also, we can look more ahead .. and about timers, it can be absolutely not depend from dps. So, no matter that dps group have the boss will die after 5 min. All that you need complete mechanic, and don't die. ok, dps dps can be, but for that can be enough 2 PTV players..

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Hint: players outtank it and start ignoring as many mechanics as they can via outhealing them. Similar as doing as much damage as possible to skip mechanics.

    so the dps is key for mechanic and the easest way fix it - remover that key at all

    You yourself have admitted to running up to 3 healers in fractals, which basically negates all difficulty and reduces the content to nothing but semi afk waiting out the time until the enemies are dead.

    I don't say about seme afk, I say that don't see make challenge and save 5 minues whit risk dead and start again . Long time I am play other mmo game where 8 members, and 6 of them supports .. And no one think that this is no ok. In gw2 support is not main of many pt, it is only some part, sometimes very very small .. It look fail. So for me at current situation raid content look failed and not balanced. WvW is more fair.

    The only way to prevent this, in both cases, is to introduce instant death mechanics which players can not skip or ignore.

    so may be we should not mix dps rotation mechanic and boss mechanic at start?

    So, you want all mechanics to turn into instant death mechanics? Is that it?

    don't understand question?? explain mind

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Hint: players outtank it and start ignoring as many mechanics as they can via outhealing them. Similar as doing as much damage as possible to skip mechanics.

    so the dps is key for mechanic and the easest way fix it - remover that key at all

    This does not even make sense. You are completely ignoring the relationship between damage and fight time, which is a result of performance, gear and build.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You yourself have admitted to running up to 3 healers in fractals, which basically negates all difficulty and reduces the content to nothing but semi afk waiting out the time until the enemies are dead.

    I don't say about seme afk, I say that don't see make challenge and save 5 minues whit risk dead and start again .

    So again, in short: you reduce the risk to your group by running more tanky. That is literally what I said. The fact this is possible to begin with is just what I said: removing a timer allows for cheesing the content.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    The only way to prevent this, in both cases, is to introduce instant death mechanics which players can not skip or ignore.

    so may be we should not mix dps rotation mechanic and boss mechanic at start?

    I am not mixing anything. I refereed to 2 ways which can allow players to do boss fight in UNINTENDED ways. Out-tanking is one, out dpsing and skipping is another. In both cases, different approaches result in the same goal: making content easier. In one case this is gear dependent, in the other performance and player skill.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So, you want all mechanics to turn into instant death mechanics? Is that it?

    don't understand question?? explain mind

    I'm saying: removing the timers allows players to IGNORE all mechanics which are not instant death because they simply out heal them. As such, the only mechanics which are actually punishing are instant death mechanics. As a matter of fact, this is already possible on many fights.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This does not even make sense. You are completely ignoring the relationship between damage and fight time, which is a result of performance, gear and build.

    I don't see any realiation between dps and gear. Why we talk about gear only from side? may be time make toughness more valuable, hp value,. also concentration for boon duration to keep protection and some resistance ?? I see many legendary dps classes wiht 5k dps. This is ok. This is also one of part why we like GuildWars2

    So again, in short: you reduce the risk to your group by running more tanky. That is literally what I said. The fact this is possible to begin with is just what I said: removing a timer allows for cheesing the content.

    no, it kill content, and make meta class domination

    I am not mixing anything. I refereed to 2 ways which can allow players to do boss fight in UNINTENDED ways. Out-tanking is one, out dpsing and skipping is another. In both cases, different approaches result in the same goal: making content easier. In one case this is gear dependent, in the other performance and player skill.

    as for me gear dependent is fair way also. if we not have success time end timer.

    I'm saying: removing the timers allows players to IGNORE all mechanics which are not instant death because they simply out heal them.

    in current raid, how they looks, how looks boses, without mechanic success timer (if squad survive some time - boss dead) - this is OK. Players should ignore mechanic, if properly geared. And it OK, if one druid solo kill ANY boss per some long time in ANY CM raid mode.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This does not even make sense. You are completely ignoring the relationship between damage and fight time, which is a result of performance, gear and build.

    I don't see any realiation between dps and gear.

    You don't see how gear affects damage? Are you serious?

    @lare.5129 said:
    Why we talk about gear only from side? may be time make toughness more valuable, hp value,. also concentration for boon duration to keep protection and some resistance ??

    We aren't. Toughness and vitality work perfectly fine., There are fights which require more survival and usually this is accommodated by players.

    It's simple: group damage is the result of:
    gear+ players skill + build

    Player skill is dependent on practice and experience which results in performance. Gear and build are not.

    Group damage is part of the relationship of boss life versus group damage = fight time. The timer in this situation sets a bar for MINIMUM damage required to manage the boss in the designed time (and is VERY generous). Removing the timer makes group damage irrelevant. Which in turn affects the underlying function of gear+skill+build and allows to shift this in ways which chesse the fight. In short: ignore player skill.

    Toughness and vitality are simply not as strong as you would like them to be, which would allow to run less toughness and vitality, make players similar tanky as now and allow them to take more damage.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    So again, in short: you reduce the risk to your group by running more tanky. That is literally what I said. The fact this is possible to begin with is just what I said: removing a timer allows for cheesing the content.

    no, it kill content, and make meta class domination

    That is no argument against what you yourself admitted. You literally said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    I don't say about seme afk, I say that don't see make challenge and save 5 minues whit risk dead and start again .

    Be honest now, that is EXACTLY the same as: I want a safe run and as such I run more tanky. You are CHEESING the content to get the reward and this is possible because there is no timer.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am not mixing anything. I refereed to 2 ways which can allow players to do boss fight in UNINTENDED ways. Out-tanking is one, out dpsing and skipping is another. In both cases, different approaches result in the same goal: making content easier. In one case this is gear dependent, in the other performance and player skill.

    as for me gear dependent is fair way also. if we not have success time end timer.

    Sure, you can argue that this game should become more gear dependent and the outcome of fights should reflect this. I simply stated why your suggestion is flawed, because so far, this game is less gear dependent and more player skill dependant.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'm saying: removing the timers allows players to IGNORE all mechanics which are not instant death because they simply out heal them.

    in current raid, how they looks, how looks boses, without mechanic success timer (if squad survive some time - boss dead) - this is OK. Players should ignore mechanic, if properly geared. And it OK, if one druid solo kill ANY boss per some long time in ANY CM raid mode.

    See, this is where you and I disagree. I don't think that being able to out-gear or out-sustain content is interesting or a desirable goal. You are a forum regular, as am I. We both know each others stance:
    You simply want to out-tank the content for the gear making it less player skill dependent.
    I disagree with out-tanking content and desire a certain minimum amount of player skill required to gain access to the reward.

  • Luci.7018Luci.7018 Member ✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    They should normalize loot into the Raids (just like fractal), so people are not doing ONCE per week and the rest of the 6 days goes into the forums :P
    Raid activity is crucial !

    edit: nvm , when the next Strike is released ?

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    This does not even make sense. You are completely ignoring the relationship between damage and fight time, which is a result of performance, gear and build.

    I don't see any realiation between dps and gear. Why we talk about gear only from side? may be time make toughness more valuable, hp value,. also concentration for boon duration to keep protection and some resistance ?? I see many legendary dps classes wiht 5k dps. This is ok. This is also one of part why we like GuildWars2

    So again, in short: you reduce the risk to your group by running more tanky. That is literally what I said. The fact this is possible to begin with is just what I said: removing a timer allows for cheesing the content.

    no, it kill content, and make meta class domination

    I am not mixing anything. I refereed to 2 ways which can allow players to do boss fight in UNINTENDED ways. Out-tanking is one, out dpsing and skipping is another. In both cases, different approaches result in the same goal: making content easier. In one case this is gear dependent, in the other performance and player skill.

    as for me gear dependent is fair way also. if we not have success time end timer.

    I'm saying: removing the timers allows players to IGNORE all mechanics which are not instant death because they simply out heal them.

    in current raid, how they looks, how looks boses, without mechanic success timer (if squad survive some time - boss dead) - this is OK. Players should ignore mechanic, if properly geared. And it OK, if one druid solo kill ANY boss per some long time in ANY CM raid mode.

    If you run nomad gear for example the boss could take 20 to 30 mins if timer was removed and no enrage then ppl could just bring 10 minion mancher necros and let minions do the job while they watch neftflix. Gear does matter you think not of the stat on gear but on its rarity, nomad has next to no dmg stat just healing tough and vit. Dps is a mechanic you want raids to mostly work as a world boss for 10 ppl. Ppl dont play 10 dps but maybe 6-or 5 dps 1 chrono in toughness gear 1-2healers and alacren. Toughness mostly affect aggro it dont reduce that much dmg

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    Blaming SC for people playing so meta-centricly (which they don't even really do 'cause they don' t know/understand the metacomps) is quite an ignorant statement, in Kitty the Offmeta Player's opinion. What many raiders have done and are doing is simply copy the gears and rotation from their site (usually not even learning the rotation properly since Kitty can out-dps them on memes that have 15k dps lower ceiling) and they rarely read their raid guides for those builds to learn how the meta builds should be used at various bosses.
    And ofc they go on chanting the meta gospel and kicking offmeta heretics, even if one person running an off-meta build with carry gimmick would turn constant wipes to easy 1-shot 'cause "BACK TO METABUILD OR KICK!!! 111". Kitty likes to refer to aforementioned type of players as "metasheep" and Kitty dares say that it's the raid community that is destroying itself. Like many problems in-game and irl, this could be avoided if more people thought with their own brain (and using common sense) or at least read the full guide instead of just the index. Though then again, these days 33% of people join the squads with wrong role 'cause they apparently can't read (approximation from Kitty's guild runs when she's needed to pug some roles, including healers joining as dps which happened twice in 10 minutes yesterday) so guess it's hard to expect more than Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V these days. sigh

    Apologies for excessive snark but Kitty's abandoned all hope of things improving. They really haven't in 3,5 years she's been raiding and trying to make a change.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who recorded videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks. Not active anymore.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:
    There only 2 bosses that requires some what high dps. Other have long timer and/or soft enrage timer.

    ou, it is so incurable gift ... but WHY we at all have enrage timer ????
    why at all we have some achievements in raid "do it on 5 minutes" ?? If this direction will be fixed - no one worried about SC

    We have seen what no enrage timer does to content.

    Hint: players outtank it and start ignoring as many mechanics as they can via outhealing them. Similar as doing as much damage as possible to skip mechanics.

    Actually, that happens extremely rarely. While it's indeed possible to do on many older content, almost noone does it that way. Why? Because most people don't want to waste 10x more time on the content just to be safe.
    (and the people that might want to do that, will likely find other ways to wipe - not everything can be outhealed)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You don't see how gear affects damage? Are you serious?

    it not have linear logic. For exsample I read traits, and take my biuld sword+pistol core thief, use my thiked and analized 1 1 5 rotation wiht ascend + cool infusion gear. SC suggest HoT thief wiht staff wiht another rotation and wihtout infusions make 4-5x more dps. So gear affects damage?

    In short: ignore player skill.

    is player skill is take SC builds and do suggested rotation? So I agree that we should ignore player skill in raid.

    We aren't. Toughness and vitality work perfectly fine., There are fights which require more survival and usually this is accommodated by players.

    how much player with toughness and vitality we have on raid ? 1 ? 2? You don't find it on others 8. It is "perfectly fine"?

    Be honest now, that is EXACTLY the same as: I want a safe run and as such I run more tanky. You are CHEESING the content to get the reward and this is possible because there is no timer.

    ? so that's why we like mmo games. You can get anything in process if do something

    Sure, you can argue that this game should become more gear dependent and the outcome of fights should reflect this. I simply stated why your suggestion is flawed, because so far, this game is less gear dependent and more player skill dependant.

    and this is NOT ok. If skill something more that not stand in red ring.

    See, this is where you and I disagree. I don't think that being able to out-gear or out-sustain content is interesting or a desirable goal. You are a forum regular, as am I. We both know each others stance:
    You simply want to out-tank the content for the gear making it less player skill dependent.
    I disagree with out-tanking content and desire a certain minimum amount of player skill required to gain access to the reward.

    yes, we both know each others stance.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    If you run nomad gear for example the boss could take 20 to 30 mins if timer was removed and no enrage then ppl could just bring 10 minion mancher necros and let minions do the job while they watch neftflix.

    if during neftflix watching wiht also can not stand in red rings and jump to other platfrom - why not ? they a welcome

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You don't see how gear affects damage? Are you serious?

    it not have linear logic. For exsample I read traits, and take my biuld sword+pistol core thief, use my thiked and analized 1 1 5 rotation wiht ascend + cool infusion gear. SC suggest HoT thief wiht staff wiht another rotation and wihtout infusions make 4-5x more dps. So gear affects damage?

    If you are unaware, the current distribution of multiplicative effects for damage is roughly:

    • 33% comes from stats
    • 33% comes from boons
    • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotation

    So yes, gear affects damage just as you lacking a proper build or rotation. All this shows is you lack understanding of how to create and execute a well thought-out build which goal it would be to do damage.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    In short: ignore player skill.

    is player skill is take SC builds and do suggested rotation? So I agree that we should ignore player skill in raid.

    Please don't strawman. I never said SC = player skill.

    Player skill is player skill. It is reflected in ones ability to both find and execute ones class/build. If one is unskilled, unable, or in other ways incompetent to find, create or execute proper builds, then yes, using SC as a resource to skip that part of the game is useful. That does not mean SC = player skill though. It simply means SC builds allow players to skip part of the build and understanding process reducing the player skill contribution to pure execution.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We aren't. Toughness and vitality work perfectly fine., There are fights which require more survival and usually this is accommodated by players.

    how much player with toughness and vitality we have on raid ? 1 ? 2? You don't find it on others 8. It is "perfectly fine"?

    That is simply not true. You are not required to run no toughness and no vitality to succeed at raids. The leeway and actual damage required are HUGE that you could easily come up with builds where each and every class in the raid runs some extra vitality and toughness. For example, Vale Guardian requires around 6k dps average to beat before the timer expires. Given the top damage builds and even average damage builds far exceed this value, it is more than possible to build tanky and still have no issue to succeed at this fight. Similar with other bosses.

    So you see, the game already allows for a more tanky approach. You simply need to understand this and find other players who want to play the same way. As a matter of fact, some players already run marauder gear over beserker, willingly taking a 10% damage performance hit for increased vitality. This is obviously NOT a balance issue at the moment.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Be honest now, that is EXACTLY the same as: I want a safe run and as such I run more tanky. You are CHEESING the content to get the reward and this is possible because there is no timer.

    ? so that's why we like mmo games. You can get anything in process if do something

    No, that's what YOU like about MMORPG. It is present in most other MMORPGs in form of continuous gear scaling. Maybe you should give one of the other MMORPGs a try where you can simply keep getting better gear to make content irrelevant.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Sure, you can argue that this game should become more gear dependent and the outcome of fights should reflect this. I simply stated why your suggestion is flawed, because so far, this game is less gear dependent and more player skill dependant.

    and this is NOT ok. If skill something more that not stand in red ring.

    You have a lot of other MMORPGs which are just that: gear dependent. Go play those instead of trying to change this one. I never understand this approach some players have: demand something is changed drastically instead of finding a game which better suits their demands.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • 33% comes from stats
    • 33% comes from boons
    • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotation

    ok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get 4-5 x less dps .. it is not - 33%

    All this shows is you lack understanding of how to create and execute a well thought-out build which goal it would be to do damage.

    what it is "understanding" ? I read traits, translate that thay do, and make my build. I take sword damage increased trait .. and all that "sound" dps good.
    So traits "lie" ? some of them not realy good ? (this is ritorical question)

    Please don't strawman. I never said SC = player skill.

    but you agree that a lot of ways do failed biuld from "looks good items" ?

    No, that's what YOU like about MMORPG. It is present in most other MMORPGs in form of continuous gear scaling. Maybe you should give one of the other MMORPGs a try where you can simply keep getting better gear to make content irrelevant.

    yes, I do it time to time. It give me experience to compare and see gw2 issues.

    You have a lot of other MMORPGs which are just that: gear dependent.

    we already have gear dependent game - this is guildwars2. But on some parts is not enough gear depended.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • 33% comes from stats
    • 33% comes from boons
    • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotation

    ok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get 4-5 x less dps .. it is not - 33%

    Yes, your build and rotation are kitten.

    I've run the test on daredevil, with 0 gear, without boons, no traits, with only autoattack, then slowing adding every element to the performance and noting the resulting dps. Within a similar build, the execution made up around 30% of the damage (actually it was 20-25% because DD dps is highly auto attack dependant).

    In this case your disparity is literally: kitten build and execution.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    All this shows is you lack understanding of how to create and execute a well thought-out build which goal it would be to do damage.

    what it is "understanding" ? I read traits, translate that thay do, and make my build. I take sword damage increased trait .. and all that "sound" dps good.
    So traits "lie" ? some of them not realy good ? (this is ritorical question)

    There are 3 factors for performance output:

    • gear
    • boons
    • build and rotation

    Which other explanation do you want to hear if 2 of those are similar? If your build and rotation are causing a 4-5x disparity, the only explantion I can give you without sugar coating it is: you are not in any way good at making builds and playing them.

    Understanding traits is not about only reading them and assuming what is good. Is it literally about KNOWING what is good, via test and experience, then building on that knowledge foundation. You obviously lack this experience and understanding, as do many others, hence why it is useful to read up on builds from more experienced players.

    Or invest the time at practice, changes, trial and error to come to a similar conclusion. That's how "pro" players create their builds. That's how off meta players like Kitty come up with builds.

    Not even going to get into the issue of knowing which weapons are good for dps and which are not. Hint: sword on thief is NOT a dps weapons.

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Please don't strawman. I never said SC = player skill.

    but you agree that a lot of ways do failed biuld from "looks good items" ?

    No, that's what YOU like about MMORPG. It is present in most other MMORPGs in form of continuous gear scaling. Maybe you should give one of the other MMORPGs a try where you can simply keep getting better gear to make content irrelevant.

    yes, I do it time to time. It give me experience to compare and see gw2 issues.

    You have a lot of other MMORPGs which are just that: gear dependent.

    we already have gear dependent game - this is guildwars2. But on some parts is not enough gear depended.

    I believe a lot of players would disagree here, but there is no point in discussing this further.

    EDIT:
    Just as a small thing to think about: if the disparity between a bad build and a high performance build is 4-5x right now (it's actually far more because the synergy within traits, skills, runes, etc is vast), what will happen if reliance on gear is increased? Either you make build and execution decision less influential, which would require massive reworks in all areas of this games combat, or in the other situation if your build is carried via gear to bridge that disparity, what happens to the high performance build?

    Your "bad" build goes from 8k to 32k performance output (that's when multiplying it by 4) and the high performance build goes from 32k to 128k. You now either make content meaningless for even remotely skilled players, or you have to introduce gear tiers which are mandatory and design content around players getting these new gear tiers, which goes directly against this games basic design of getting into content fast without to much of a gear grind.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    • 33% comes from stats
    • 33% comes from boons
    • 33% comes from traits, skills and executing an ideal rotation

    ok, I have bigger stats, same boons, and get 4-5 x less dps .. it is not - 33%

    What are you even arguing here? How can you try to claim that gear doesn't affect dps while you base it by comparing your randomized garbage build+rotation to proper/currently top builds+rotations?

    Get any build and rotation, check the dps with ascended items. Then get the same build and rotation and check the dps while using lower grade gear. That's not even anything that should be tested to understand in the first place, but... uh...

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Then get the same build and rotation

    no no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,
    But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Then get the same build and rotation

    no no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,
    But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

    Fair enough ;)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Fangoth.4503Fangoth.4503 Member ✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    you can claim that there is enough dps to take more healing and stuff and this week we got one from lfg, he did survive gorseval but iff all dps would have perform as good as him we would have been better off running a group full of boon chrono and alac... and if all dps/boon were doing 4780dps i doubt 4 updraft would have been enough to kill gorse...

    DPS part of the log (name/account removed): https://imgur.com/HVJ1Qpw
    it's also to avoid that issue that people ask for li/kp

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

    Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

  • @yann.1946 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

    Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

    no, infusion + food doesn't compensate the pet + stone signet he is also running. just let him tank and lfg a hk that know how to dodge every 7sec

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fangoth.4503 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    You should talk abit to ladykitty if you think raids are not ready for none sc builds.

    not always. I take real example from my build on thief. I don't say that thins is not impossible at all

    One day nomad bearbow will be accepted and show its best :)

    As a hand kiter at deimos? You could do it now and it would probably work perfectly fine.

    Too much toughness, not even a minstrel tank could take aggro from that.

    Maybe take a nomads gear tank with thougness infusions. :p

    no, infusion + food doesn't compensate the pet + stone signet he is also running. just let him tank and lfg a hk that know how to dodge every 7sec

    fair, one day we'll make a nomads bearbow ranger good. :p

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    On a more serious note,
    A few of the remarks in this tread get countered with the fact that the info they ask is on sc's website.
    Is their a way to more easily get all the info out their so less people miss the extra info that is available?

  • Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

    If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

    If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

    Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

    Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.
    But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

  • @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

    If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

    Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

    Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.
    But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

    My point is less about Snowcrow and more about what is 'meta' and people's insistence on others running what they deem is meta rather than that person running what is most effective for them. Some warriors truly need double EP to function for instance. Some don't. But the ones that do should need it should keep carrying double EP until they get better. After all dead DPS is 0 dps.

    SC and Discretize have GREAT resources for the builds that their guilds found to be meta for THEM. Ditto for Metabattle for the twitch streamers. These are great resources to go to for a first cut on someone's build. But the community itself needs to come to terms with the fact that Meta is relative to the ability of the people running it. What should be emphasized more is general build crafting and class knowledge relative to the mechanics to be encountered.

  • Wow, thats a load of nonsense to say the least. It's not snowcrows fault that you don't understand your build and are incapable of adjusting to situations. They have no obligation either to change their builds and stuff to carry you. Also it's by far not as dramatic as you make it sound, all people make mistakes, and unless theres a ton of it, it's not a big deal either, if you make too many, perhaps you should practice and learn the encounter instead of blaming others. Take some responsibility for your own actions instead of blaming a guild that provides free knowledge and suggestions for people.
    The real thing killing raids are many people in and around the scene. Trying to force their expectations onto each other.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Then get the same build and rotation

    no no .. I read read trait, it increase sword damage, take it, ant press button how I think, how it looks good, (ofc it not good) is same zerk biuld .. And have different numbers than thief wiht staff and another traits and rotation. I that difference is call "meta". It is SC destroying raids, or some raid mechanic not ready for that - is another part of story,,
    But what I see, and whit that can I agree - that raid is not ready for non-SC roleplay biulds.

    No, no, the point here is that you don't understand how to compare builds OR gear. If you're arguing that build 123-123-123 won't have the same dps as 312-312-312 or weapon "X" doesn't do the same thing that weapon "Y" then that's just expected and normal. That's, like, literally the point of having multiple builds/traits/weapons/skills available in the game: them being different and excelling in different situations depending on what you want to do with them.
    And you don't need top builds with top dps (a.k.a "SC builds") to easly complete the raids. This has been discussed on multiple occasions already.

  • @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    Meta is meta unless you or your group are unable to execute it at which point is becomes non-meta for you or your group.

    If a group runs a meta layout and fails consistently, then that layout is by default not meta for that group. If said group changes their layout to an 'off-meta' layout and successfully completes a run without issue and in a timely manner, then they have found the meta for their group.

    Hum i understand what you meant, but i don't think the definition of meta is scopping the user ability to use the most effiency tactical available, the question is, the "available" concern the user or the whole system... i guess i'm just going to much in definition xD

    Anyway yes, meta build are often not for newbie as they sacrifice everything they can to be more effiency in their role.
    But SC have ton of off-meta build, or to be more accurate, they have every meta build of each exisiting viable build, want to play power or condi tempest, you have the meta build for the two, even if they are not meta, they are the best as the best power tempest build to do damage and the best condi tempest to do damage. SC basicly give that to and meta teamcompo for each boss, so there is a ton of offmeta build on SC.

    My point is less about Snowcrow and more about what is 'meta' and people's insistence on others running what they deem is meta rather than that person running what is most effective for them. Some warriors truly need double EP to function for instance. Some don't. But the ones that do should need it should keep carrying double EP until they get better. After all dead DPS is 0 dps.

    SC and Discretize have GREAT resources for the builds that their guilds found to be meta for THEM. Ditto for Metabattle for the twitch streamers. These are great resources to go to for a first cut on someone's build. But the community itself needs to come to terms with the fact that Meta is relative to the ability of the people running it. What should be emphasized more is general build crafting and class knowledge relative to the mechanics to be encountered.

    yea i know and i'm also at this opinion, just speaking about the definition usage of meta.

  • If you have good sites like Snow Crows and you are not using them, you are already handicapping yourself for nothing. Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.

    If you refuse to use the tools available to you, don't complain about them. You don't have to. Just acknowledge your decision. 😎😎😎😎😎😎

    minecrafter

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Janitsu.6284 said:
    Raids are EXTREMELY trivial and have no actually hard content once you've cleared them once or twice.

    For a lot of people it's more than just once or twice. Also, the key problem lies in the part "once you've cleared".
    Yes, obviously raids become easy once you have got to the point when they're easy. The issue lies in what happens before you get to that point.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • The problems are in the one size fits all raid design. Not everyone wants to engage with the game in the same way. The people who want crushing miserable instant death mechanics and bleeding edge DPS checks deserve to have them. That is what Anet's raid design has leaned towards for years. But, they also have a lot of concessions sprinkled in there to shut those of us up who desperately want a more casual raiding experience. Those concessions suck in the context of a difficulty forward progression raiding system. Since we only have one difficulty, no one can be happy and no one can enjoy the content to it's fullest. The way raiding is right now makes me really angry. It has kept me from enjoying GW2 since HoT. I love the game and it means a lot to me, but to me there's this hideous stain on it that just will not come out. Raids are just way too hard for me and there's so much content locked out of reach. I would really like to just play it without being saddled with all this garbage of builds off the website and 25 acronyms that mean something slightly different to every raid leader. Split raids into 3 difficulties, a normal version that is tuned for accessibility, a legendary version that is the current version, and a nightmare version to challenge people unhappy with the concessions in the current version. Change the achievements that need to be gatekept away from casuals for whatever reason to be for legendary or higher, and add some weekly or daily motivators to get people checking out the introductory raid mode. You can shout me down and pick my opinion apart all day if that makes you happy, but I don't have the same perspective as you and I am not trying to invalidate your perspective. I am simply trying to express my perspective and what has soured GW2 for me the worst for the longest. You explaining to me how raiding is easy and I just need to do X Y and Z to enjoy it isn't going to change my perspective.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    Except for maybe largos, raids don't really have a strict DPS check nor are there many instant death mechanics. Just for clarification, I wouldn't call the DPS check for largos "strict" but it's probably the boss groups would likely struggle with when it comes to DPS.

  • Asgaeroth.6427Asgaeroth.6427 Member ✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Except for maybe largos, raids don't really have a strict DPS check nor are there many instant death mechanics. Just for clarification, I wouldn't call the DPS check for largos "strict" but it's probably the boss groups would likely struggle with when it comes to DPS.

    From your perspective this is true. This is not everyone's perspective. If I try to lead a raid we can't even get to a second phase because of getting instantly crushed with incomprehensible damage and getting no damage on boss. It's just endless misery and no progress and constant rage quits. If I join a raid it's nonstop getting screamed at about this weapon or that trait and "kill yourself you insert slur here" for joining a raid without knowing this or that. AKA more endless misery. I don't even run objectively bad builds, I have well above average HPS and DPS by arcdps's measure. It's more a problem of the mentality that the fixed raid difficulty produces, not that I can't play GW2 good. I would much rather play a mode that can be cleared by a wide variety of compositions and skill levels than listen to this meta arguing day in and day out. I just wish there was a way to play them without all this nonsense. The people who think they are too hard, the people who think they are correct, and the people who think they are too easy are all forced into the same instances and that breeds these ceaseless arguments and limitless toxicity and hate. There's just no good reason for it and it has eroded the quality of the game severely.