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[sPvP] Deadeye needs to be addressed


Exitus.3297

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I'm not really sure how to begin the thread so I'm just going to go straight into the numbers.In sPvP, assuming you are running Berserker + Scholar Ammy, Skirmisher's Shot (non-kneeling 2 skill) has a tooltip of 745, Pierces, causes Cripple, and costs 3 initiative.Double Tap (non-kneeling 3) has a tooltip of 930 assuming both shots hit. It applies 2 stacks of might for 6 seconds, but does not Pierce and costs 6 initiative.Three Round Burst (the kneeling 3 skill), the skill that is supposed to do the most damage out of these skills, does 1395 damage, applies 3 stacks of might for 6 seconds, also does not pierce, and costs 6 initiative. It also gains benefit of 1500 range at the cost not being able to move...

For people that aren't the best at math, let me phrase it this way: Would you rather spend 6 initiative on a skill that does a total of 1395 damage, doesn't pierce, doesn't allow you to move and grants up to 2 Malice? Or would you rather cast the same amount of Initiative but deal a total of 1540 damage with attacks that pierce (meaning people can't body-block you), cause cripple, and can grant up to 4 Malice? The answer is pretty obvious to me. If they are running Maleficent Seven (which I can guarantee you they are), they get most of that initiative refunded after a few shots. Missing a few shots is not that punishing due to the low cost of the skill.

Moreover, why does the Deadeye rifle skills only cause 3 seconds of Reveal as opposed to every other skill causing 4 seconds?

What these two things together create a class that isn't necessarily overpowered, but absolutely obnoxious to fight and braindead to play as. All the Deadeye has to do after marking a target is spam 2 l until they reach max initiative without even needing to kneel in place. Because of the low cost of the skill, there is virtually no punishment for them missing what is technically their most damaging skill, a skill that also so conveniently, cripples, pierces, and allows them to move. At the same time, because the Revealed timer on Death's Judgement is 3 seconds instead of 4, it creates a smaller window in which someone has to punish them for screwing up... And because it is a ranged attack, it will take a second or two (at least) for someone to even get to them. That effectively means that by the time you get to them, they just dodge into stealth and reposition to do the whole thing all over again. Because of the Boons granted from Maleficent Seven (Protection and Vigor being the two big ones, the former reducing the damage they take and the latter allowing for more dodges) combined potentially with Flickering Shadow, there is no realistic way to kill them. Even nailing them with a Reveal skill such as Sic 'Em or Facet, they can just use Shadow Meld to break it. They aren't impossible to kill, but have to spend a lot of time and energy to outplay them and you will maybe kill them.

Yes, you can projectile reflect. Yes, you can LoS them. There are ways to deal with them, but most of the time you are just going to feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall.

The solution to me seems simple: Move the damage from Skirmisher's Shot back to Double Tap and Three Round Burst. Perhaps Reduce the Initiative cost of those skills by 1. Don't make Skirmisher's Shot useless; rather, give it the identity of being the ability the Deadeye casts when they need to kite and slow down enemies. Also make the Revealed Timer on Death's Judgement 4 seconds. I feel like these would be very basic changes that wouldn't break them but would at least make them less annoying to fight. It's possible they may need buffs in other areas to make them more viable in general, but that isn't what I'm here to address.

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The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:

  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits, and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

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@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:

  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits, and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

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Shifting the damage and malice to other skills would be nice but what happens all too often with Thief over the years is we get nerfed and pigeonholed into something like spamming skirmisher's shot, people complain about it, then all that happens is skirmisher's shot gets nerfed and nothing gets buffed.

Anet is historically bad at balancing.

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:
  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because
    the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits,
    and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

You say you "don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere" along with "I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do".You realize that increasing reveal for 1s completely goes against your statement right? Reveal is what determines the damage output for the whole spec.You can't dps the same when you touch the malice pump and dump system that is the very design of the spec. When you increase reveal by 1s from 3s to 4s, that's a whole second where you will either just auto attack to save ini (laughable dmg on auto attack #1 ->dps crashes down) or lose out ini by #2 again because you couldn't DJ on 3rd second. This can lead you to being not able to M7 on time again after initial refund -> dps crashes down.

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@aleron.1438 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:
  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because
    the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits,
    and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

You say you "don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere" along with "I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do".You realize that increasing reveal for 1s completely goes against your statement right? Reveal is what determines the damage output for the whole spec.You can't dps the same when you touch the malice pump and dump system that is the very design of the spec. When you increase reveal by 1s from 3s to 4s, that's a whole second where you will either just auto attack to save ini (laughable dmg on auto attack #1 ->dps crashes down) or lose out ini by #2 again because you couldn't DJ on 3rd second. This can lead you to being not able to M7 on time again after initial refund -> dps crashes down.

You do realize I was specifically referring to just those abilities right? You do realize I said nothing about overall dps and specifically referred to the raw damage dealt by abilities right?If you are going to come to a forum to sound smart, at least address the issue I put forward instead of taking what I said and twisting it to prove a point. My point is literally just this:

Spamming 2 alongside M7 to both build Malice and deal reliable, solid damage without the need to kneel or properly manage initiative is braindead to play as. Please tell me how it is healthy design for Skirmisher's Shot to be the DEs go-to button for literally everything including damage (which also happens to pierce), Cripple AND Malice build up. When mixed with the fact that no class can even properly punish the Deadeye for making a mistake (due to the combination the 3s Reveal on Rifle skills and Stealth on dodge) makes them just plain obnoxious to play against even if it isn't necessarily good in a competitive scene, because it takes a second or so to even get close enough to do anything to them.

However, I also recognized (as @ASP.8093 pointed out) that Deadeyes are reliant on Skirmisher's Shot in its current state because of how poor of state both of the 3 skills are in (which are supposed to be their non-stealth damaging skills). So I suggested shifting the damage from Skirmisher's Shot to Double Tap and Three Round Burst whilst also reducing their initiative cost so nerfing the damage of Skirmisher's Shot can be justified. The general idea is to make Skirmisher's Shot the smarter choice to use in some circumstances while making the 3 skills (kneeling or standing) the smarter choice in other circumstances. If they're overall DPS come out roughly the same, even with some other adjustments, then that's fine.

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:
  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because
    the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits,
    and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

You say you "don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere" along with "I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do".You realize that increasing reveal for 1s completely goes against your statement right? Reveal is what determines the damage output for the whole spec.You can't dps the same when you touch the malice pump and dump system that is the very design of the spec. When you increase reveal by 1s from 3s to 4s, that's a whole second where you will either just auto attack to save ini (laughable dmg on auto attack #1 ->dps crashes down) or lose out ini by #2 again because you couldn't DJ on 3rd second. This can lead you to being not able to M7 on time again after initial refund -> dps crashes down.

You do realize I was specifically referring to just those abilities right? You do realize I said nothing about overall dps and specifically referred to the raw damage dealt by abilities right?If you are going to come to a forum to sound smart, at least address the issue I put forward instead of taking what I said and twisting it to prove a point. My point is literally just this:

Spamming 2 alongside M7 to both build Malice and deal reliable, solid damage without the need to kneel or properly manage initiative is braindead to play as. Please tell me how it is healthy design for Skirmisher's Shot to be the DEs go-to button for literally everything including damage (which also happens to pierce), Cripple AND Malice build up. When mixed with the fact that
no class can even properly punish the Deadeye for making a mistake
(due to the combination the 3s Reveal on Rifle skills and Stealth on dodge) makes them just plain obnoxious to play against even if it isn't necessarily good in a competitive scene, because it takes a second or so to even get close enough to do anything to them.

However, I also recognized (as @ASP.8093 pointed out) that Deadeyes are reliant on Skirmisher's Shot in its current state because of how poor of state both of the 3 skills are in (which are supposed to be their non-stealth damaging skills). So I suggested shifting the damage from Skirmisher's Shot to Double Tap and Three Round Burst whilst also reducing their initiative cost so nerfing the damage of Skirmisher's Shot can be justified. The general idea is to make Skirmisher's Shot the smarter choice to use in some circumstances while making the 3 skills (kneeling or standing) the smarter choice in other circumstances. If they're overall DPS come out roughly the same, even with some other adjustments, then that's fine.

Don't rage at people for trying to sound smart if you're dropping nonsense like that. People mostly ignore DE's unless maybe it's d/p + shortbow and try to stay ready for Daredevils and Core. Take some control skills.

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@kash.9213 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:
  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because
    the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits,
    and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

You say you "don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere" along with "I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do".You realize that increasing reveal for 1s completely goes against your statement right? Reveal is what determines the damage output for the whole spec.You can't dps the same when you touch the malice pump and dump system that is the very design of the spec. When you increase reveal by 1s from 3s to 4s, that's a whole second where you will either just auto attack to save ini (laughable dmg on auto attack #1 ->dps crashes down) or lose out ini by #2 again because you couldn't DJ on 3rd second. This can lead you to being not able to M7 on time again after initial refund -> dps crashes down.

You do realize I was specifically referring to just those abilities right? You do realize I said nothing about overall dps and specifically referred to the raw damage dealt by abilities right?If you are going to come to a forum to sound smart, at least address the issue I put forward instead of taking what I said and twisting it to prove a point. My point is literally just this:

Spamming 2 alongside M7 to both build Malice and deal reliable, solid damage without the need to kneel or properly manage initiative is braindead to play as. Please tell me how it is healthy design for Skirmisher's Shot to be the DEs go-to button for literally everything including damage (which also happens to pierce), Cripple AND Malice build up. When mixed with the fact that
no class can even properly punish the Deadeye for making a mistake
(due to the combination the 3s Reveal on Rifle skills and Stealth on dodge) makes them just plain obnoxious to play against even if it isn't necessarily good in a competitive scene, because it takes a second or so to even get close enough to do anything to them.

However, I also recognized (as @ASP.8093 pointed out) that Deadeyes are reliant on Skirmisher's Shot in its current state because of how poor of state both of the 3 skills are in (which are supposed to be their non-stealth damaging skills). So I suggested shifting the damage from Skirmisher's Shot to Double Tap and Three Round Burst whilst also reducing their initiative cost so nerfing the damage of Skirmisher's Shot can be justified. The general idea is to make Skirmisher's Shot the smarter choice to use in some circumstances while making the 3 skills (kneeling or standing) the smarter choice in other circumstances. If they're overall DPS come out roughly the same, even with some other adjustments, then that's fine.

Don't rage at people for trying to sound smart if you're dropping nonsense like that. People mostly ignore DE's unless maybe it's d/p + shortbow and try to stay ready for Daredevils and Core. Take some control skills.

I didn't rage... I returned their tone back at them. I tend to do that and maybe I shouldn't, but it gets frustrating when people take only a portion of what I'm saying while my primary point gets blatantly ignored. But tis the interwebs.

I have been playing Deadeye with Flickering Shadow. Daredevils don't do much to me unless I get needlessly aggressive and that seems to be the trend when I happen across a Deadeye on any character I play. You boldfaced the part where I said "no class can properly punish the deadeye for making a mistake" as my nonsense. I may seem like I am going overboard with the tone, but there is a reason I inserted the word "properly." Perhaps I should have been more specific in that particular post that classes can punish the Deadeye for making a mistake, but with the Deadeye's current kit it is easy to not make mistakes, and any mistakes they do make does not typically result in their death as long as they disengage. As I mentioned in my first post, they CAN be dealt with. It's just needlessly frustrating.

I don't get how it is so difficult to understand that all I'm saying is that it is frustrating to fight and too easy to play due to Skirmisher Shot spam, Stealth on dodge and reduced Revealed duration.

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@Exitus.3297 said:

@"ASP.8093" said:The current state of Deadeye in SPvP/WvW is the result of a muddled interaction between several passes of nerfs:
  1. Double/Triple Tap initiative cost (as well as Death's Retreat) initiative cost increased from 4 to 6 in SPvP/WvW.
  2. Damage nerfs to all Rifle skills except Skirmisher's Shot in SPvP/WvW, part of the global damage nerf.
  3. (Same time as global damage nerf) Double/Triple Tap might stacking reduced from 3 Might per bullet to 1 Might per bullet in SPvP/WvW.
  4. (Same time as global damage nerf) Spotter's Shot damage massively nerfed, but a slight Immob increase in SPvP/WvW.
  5. Game mechanical change to Revealed duration after attacking (from 3 sec to 4 sec) in SPvP only -- Death's Judgement indirectly dodged this nerf because
    the skill auto-applies Revealed before it actually connects, before the attack hits,
    and it looks like nobody went back and changed its Reveal duration in SPvP.

So basically it's a mix of several sloppy patches that left Skirmisher's Shot as the main "poking" skill because Rifle 3 costs too much for what it does now, and Kneeling is very risky but doesn't translate into an kind of real damage boost in SPvP/WvW so it's just not done unless you need access to specialized utility. The whole spec is hanging onto Skirmisher's Shot like a life raft because it's the only viable way to build Malice right now.

Pretty much...

That is also why I don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere. I could imagine shifting the damage of Double Tap to something like 1100 to 1200-ish tooltip damage in sPvP (assuming Berserker + Scholar) and Three Round burst going up to just around 1400-ish tooltip damage, and perhaps lowering their initiative cost by 1 because raising it from 4 to 6 seemed like overkill to me. That would justify lowering the damage on Skirmisher's Shot so it isn't a life-raft as you describe. I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do, I just want it to come from a place that makes sense.

You say you "don't want the class nerfed outright; just the damage shifted elsewhere" along with "I don't really care that Deadeye's do the damage that they do".You realize that increasing reveal for 1s completely goes against your statement right? Reveal is what determines the damage output for the whole spec.You can't dps the same when you touch the malice pump and dump system that is the very design of the spec. When you increase reveal by 1s from 3s to 4s, that's a whole second where you will either just auto attack to save ini (laughable dmg on auto attack #1 ->dps crashes down) or lose out ini by #2 again because you couldn't DJ on 3rd second. This can lead you to being not able to M7 on time again after initial refund -> dps crashes down.

You do realize I was specifically referring to just those abilities right? You do realize I said nothing about overall dps and specifically referred to the raw damage dealt by abilities right?If you are going to come to a forum to sound smart, at least address the issue I put forward instead of taking what I said and twisting it to prove a point. My point is literally just this:

Spamming 2 alongside M7 to both build Malice and deal reliable, solid damage without the need to kneel or properly manage initiative is braindead to play as. Please tell me how it is healthy design for Skirmisher's Shot to be the DEs go-to button for literally everything including damage (which also happens to pierce), Cripple AND Malice build up. When mixed with the fact that
no class can even properly punish the Deadeye for making a mistake
(due to the combination the 3s Reveal on Rifle skills and Stealth on dodge) makes them just plain obnoxious to play against even if it isn't necessarily good in a competitive scene, because it takes a second or so to even get close enough to do anything to them.

However, I also recognized (as @ASP.8093 pointed out) that Deadeyes are reliant on Skirmisher's Shot in its current state because of how poor of state both of the 3 skills are in (which are supposed to be their non-stealth damaging skills). So I suggested shifting the damage from Skirmisher's Shot to Double Tap and Three Round Burst whilst also reducing their initiative cost so nerfing the damage of Skirmisher's Shot can be justified. The general idea is to make Skirmisher's Shot the smarter choice to use in some circumstances while making the 3 skills (kneeling or standing) the smarter choice in other circumstances. If they're overall DPS come out roughly the same, even with some other adjustments, then that's fine.

Don't rage at people for trying to sound smart if you're dropping nonsense like that. People mostly ignore DE's unless maybe it's d/p + shortbow and try to stay ready for Daredevils and Core. Take some control skills.

I didn't rage... I returned their tone back at them. I tend to do that and maybe I shouldn't, but it gets frustrating when people take only a portion of what I'm saying while my primary point gets blatantly ignored. But tis the interwebs.

I have been playing Deadeye with Flickering Shadow. Daredevils don't do much to me unless I get needlessly aggressive and that seems to be the trend when I happen across a Deadeye on any character I play. You boldfaced the part where I said "no class can properly punish the deadeye for making a mistake" as my nonsense. I may seem like I am going overboard with the tone, but there is a reason I inserted the word "properly." Perhaps I should have been more specific in that particular post that classes
can
punish the Deadeye for making a mistake, but with the Deadeye's current kit it is easy to not make mistakes, and any mistakes they do make does not typically result in their death as long as they disengage. As I mentioned in my first post, they CAN be dealt with. It's just needlessly frustrating.

I don't get how it is so difficult to understand that all I'm saying is that it is frustrating to fight and too easy to play due to Skirmisher Shot spam, Stealth on dodge and reduced Revealed duration.

Whatever a deadeye is getting you with, it's not likely DE specific unless it's something like Binding Shadow which everyone should agree is dumb. Shadow Meld will mostly tell you where they're about to be in a second and if they have a chance against you, it's likely in you're rear cone. If they took Rifle instead, they should only really land Skirmishers Shot and you should be able to out dps that.

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@"Exitus.3297" said:I'm not really sure how to begin the thread so I'm just going to go straight into the numbers.In sPvP, assuming you are running Berserker + Scholar Ammy, Skirmisher's Shot (non-kneeling 2 skill) has a tooltip of 745, Pierces, causes Cripple, and costs 3 initiative.Double Tap (non-kneeling 3) has a tooltip of 930 assuming both shots hit. It applies 2 stacks of might for 6 seconds, but does not Pierce and costs 6 initiative.Three Round Burst (the kneeling 3 skill), the skill that is supposed to do the most damage out of these skills, does 1395 damage, applies 3 stacks of might for 6 seconds, also does not pierce, and costs 6 initiative. It also gains benefit of 1500 range at the cost not being able to move...

For people that aren't the best at math, let me phrase it this way: Would you rather spend 6 initiative on a skill that does a total of 1395 damage, doesn't pierce, doesn't allow you to move and grants up to 2 Malice? Or would you rather cast the same amount of Initiative but deal a total of 1540 damage with attacks that pierce (meaning people can't body-block you), cause cripple, and can grant up to 4 Malice? The answer is pretty obvious to me. If they are running Maleficent Seven (which I can guarantee you they are), they get most of that initiative refunded after a few shots. Missing a few shots is not that punishing due to the low cost of the skill.

Moreover, why does the Deadeye rifle skills only cause 3 seconds of Reveal as opposed to every other skill causing 4 seconds?

What these two things together create a class that isn't necessarily overpowered, but absolutely obnoxious to fight and braindead to play as. All the Deadeye has to do after marking a target is spam 2 l until they reach max initiative without even needing to kneel in place. Because of the low cost of the skill, there is virtually no punishment for them missing what is technically their most damaging skill, a skill that also so conveniently, cripples, pierces, and allows them to move. At the same time, because the Revealed timer on Death's Judgement is 3 seconds instead of 4, it creates a smaller window in which someone has to punish them for screwing up... And because it is a ranged attack, it will take a second or two (at least) for someone to even get to them. That effectively means that by the time you get to them, they just dodge into stealth and reposition to do the whole thing all over again. Because of the Boons granted from Maleficent Seven (Protection and Vigor being the two big ones, the former reducing the damage they take and the latter allowing for more dodges) combined potentially with Flickering Shadow, there is no realistic way to kill them. Even nailing them with a Reveal skill such as Sic 'Em or Facet, they can just use Shadow Meld to break it. They aren't impossible to kill, but have to spend a lot of time and energy to outplay them and you will maybe kill them.

Yes, you can projectile reflect. Yes, you can LoS them. There are ways to deal with them, but most of the time you are just going to feel like you are banging your head against a brick wall.

The solution to me seems simple: Move the damage from Skirmisher's Shot back to Double Tap and Three Round Burst. Perhaps Reduce the Initiative cost of those skills by 1. Don't make Skirmisher's Shot useless; rather, give it the identity of being the ability the Deadeye casts when they need to kite and slow down enemies. Also make the Revealed Timer on Death's Judgement 4 seconds. I feel like these would be very basic changes that wouldn't break them but would at least make them less annoying to fight. It's possible they may need buffs in other areas to make them more viable in general, but that isn't what I'm here to address.

Deadeye used to have combos before its rework, which got much simpler after the rework, but they still existed. Kneeling meant you got a significant damage boost, spamming Three Round Burst(TBR) was a good way to stack might for landing an unblockable DJ.But then everything except Skirmishers shot got nerfed - repeatedly - so to our surprise, this is the skill priority for DE now:

  • Want to snare the enemy: Skirmishers shot!
  • Want to apply pressure: Skirmishers shot!
  • Want to stack malice: Skirmishers shot!

Noone could have forseen this. I mean all they did is making sure the rest of the skills do no damage and have no useful utility.

Sarcasm aside, I'd give combos back to DE in the following way: TBR initative cost down to 4, mightstacking back to 3 per bullet, base damage for TBR down to 50%, skirmishers shot damage nerfed by 30%. Maybe even longer mightstacks from hitting with TBR, so that the DE can really build up that mightstack, and corrupting it would be a viable way to defend against a burst. The idea would be DE-s having slightly more damage potential compared to what they have now, but it would require more windows where they are vulnerable kneeling, stacking might.So ignoring a DE would be a deadly mistake, but not ignoring it would be easier. You know, what the original plan for this spec was... but we can also keep the curent "spam 2" meta, it's also good... I really like it. IT's sO GoOD.

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I agree with most of the core criticisms, but you need to be careful here: it's very easy to come up with a rework that looks good on paper but actually kills the specialization entirely. For example, just shunting all your damage into Kneel skills risks really weakening the Rifle as a weapon: if you can't apply pressure on the move, you're not really a viable ranged spec. That said, since Kneeling is often high-risk in WvW/PvP, I can see why you'd want it to be high-reward, too. Balancing this is real tricky imo. Especially since there's a pretty wide gulf between what good players can "punish" vs. what mediocre/bad players can "punish."

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@"ASP.8093" said:I agree with most of the core criticisms, but you need to be careful here: it's very easy to come up with a rework that looks good on paper but actually kills the specialization entirely. For example, just shunting all your damage into Kneel skills risks really weakening the Rifle as a weapon: if you can't apply pressure on the move, you're not really a viable ranged spec. That said, since Kneeling is often high-risk in WvW/PvP, I can see why you'd want it to be high-reward, too. Balancing this is real tricky imo. Especially since there's a pretty wide gulf between what good players can "punish" vs. what mediocre/bad players can "punish."

If you're talking about the post above yours, it sounds like the pressure would still likely end up being on the move, but fueled mostly by stacked might and other mods built up through the window and risk of Kneeling. That's if you'd go for burst pressure which like they mentioned could be countered but then I get your point also, that window of pressure can get shut down hard if you can't fluidly transition to moving as soon as your might and everything is topped off. I think the most pressure I put on people in WvW at least is Spotter Shot, that causes the most scrambling and usually opens them up enough from their panic to close in.

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@"ASP.8093" said:I agree with most of the core criticisms, but you need to be careful here: it's very easy to come up with a rework that looks good on paper but actually kills the specialization entirely. For example, just shunting all your damage into Kneel skills risks really weakening the Rifle as a weapon: if you can't apply pressure on the move, you're not really a viable ranged spec. That said, since Kneeling is often high-risk in WvW/PvP, I can see why you'd want it to be high-reward, too. Balancing this is real tricky imo. Especially since there's a pretty wide gulf between what good players can "punish" vs. what mediocre/bad players can "punish."

Fine. Whatever makes Deadeye less braindead and less frustrating to fight. I only suggested those changes because people constantly complain about pointing issues but providing no solutions. I personally don't care what happens so long as 2 spam stops.

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well, as for me, despite de has several problems with its gameplay, it remains being useless in the game.there almost no situations u can pick it, dd or core builds much more reliable and effective. De has no definite role - with nerf of dmg de lost some influence in teamfight, he has less mobility than dd/core builds, and has less burst damage than condithief too.Just playing de cuz its fun, but in most situations picking de is 4v5. Its damage easy countered through magnetic aura spam, proj blocks, so and powerdmg nerf. Before dat feb patch de's dmg compensated his 0 mobility on the map, at least he could effectively focus targed, but now, its around 10 secs to stack malice for death judgement, what can be blocked, reflected, or easily dodged.Its hard to say, but the only thing DE is needed in gw2 is just pylon taking in quadim

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@Aihao.5824 said:well, as for me, despite de has several problems with its gameplay, it remains being useless in the game.there almost no situations u can pick it, dd or core builds much more reliable and effective. De has no definite role - with nerf of dmg de lost some influence in teamfight, he has less mobility than dd/core builds, and has less burst damage than condithief too.Just playing de cuz its fun, but in most situations picking de is 4v5. Its damage easy countered through magnetic aura spam, proj blocks, so and powerdmg nerf. Before dat feb patch de's dmg compensated his 0 mobility on the map, at least he could effectively focus targed, but now, its around 10 secs to stack malice for death judgement, what can be blocked, reflected, or easily dodged.Its hard to say, but the only thing DE is needed in gw2 is just pylon taking in quadim

DE is good in wv roaming, but yea it's crap in pvp. The 4 biggest reasons are:1) it is stealth based and the pvp reveal time is just too long for it to preform adequately.2) the food that gives 40% endurance regen is pretty much mandatory. You will die a ton more without it.3) You deal more damage in wvw. I think some skills may do different damage in pvp and wvw, but more so is that you have higher base stats and most people don't put the extra into defense to counter you (it does kind of suck when you run into people that do though). This damage, i would call adequate. In pvp it doesn't deal enough damage per initiative to effectively down enemies and not even close to make up for damage loss due to a bazillion reflects/projetile hate.4) in pvp thieves are expected to decap with shortbow, but in my experience, the best rifle builds use other weapons in their offhand to help cover their weaknesses. In WvW you still have warclaw to get around quickly, but not in pvp.

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a bit late but i suppose the reveal duration being less on rifle is because it is applied twice on DJ. once on starting to cast it and once when the bullet hits. assuming half a second travel time of the bullet that will get you 4 seconds. if the reveal is only applied on cast -not on hit- then increasing it to 4s would make it more in line with the other stealth attacks. the current 3s on cast + 3s on hit makes it easier to escape after an avoided DJ.other than that cant really comment on the current powerlevel of it as i just returned from nearly a year break.

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