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Alacrity / Quickness Monopoly

Almost all groups want an AlacRev and an QFB. Imagine what a Chrono had to do to provide those boons while a Rev or FB do it in their sleep.

The thing that bothers me most about it is the importance of a FB. You can play QFB with solid power damage in fracts, also can play him with very high condi damage, and as if that wasn't enough, FB is also one of the best healers in the entire game, even without permanent party quickness uptime.

Spin it however you want, he's either too good at too many things at once or other classes are too bad.

But what do you think, how can we break this monopoly? Should Anet nerv these builds, or buff other builds instead, or maybe a mix of both?!


I personally believe that other classes have potential. Reaper, for example, ensures quicknees in shroud for himself, but what if he would share it with up to 5 allied targets. You can find something similar for other classes. Alacrity and quickness maybe should always be shared with at least up to 5 allied targets as this has become so important. I just wish to see groups again that are not built around AlacRev and QFB, without lack of alacrity or quickness.

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Comments

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 13, 2020

    We could change quickness on fb to swiftness and alarcity on ren and chrono to vigor and add quickness to ele as an air and tempest thing and alarcity to scourge. Simply to have change we must kill old comp for those to ensure ppl use new :) problem is over in end every class would be nerfed reason for necro to not share is necro is very selfish built class. Anet does not give without taking in balance

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    We could change quickness on fb to swiftness and alarcity on ren and chrono to vigor and add quickness to ele as an air and tempest thing and alarcity to scourge. Simply to have change we must kill old comp for those to ensure ppl use new :)

    And then we would simply change one problem for another, just as we did when we switched dfom Chrono to Fb.

    problem is over in end every class would be nerfed

    I don't think that making everyone miserable is a good goal to have.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sileeent.5861 said:
    Almost all groups want an AlacRev and an QFB. Imagine what a Chrono had to do to provide those boons while a Rev or FB do it in their sleep.

    The thing that bothers me most about it is the importance of a FB. You can play QFB with solid power damage in fracts, also can play him with very high condi damage, and as if that wasn't enough, FB is also one of the best healers in the entire game, even without permanent party quickness uptime.

    Seize the moment chrono has also very high power damage. Doesnt require any boon duration. Fb requires 25%. The problem is the quickness application and general lack of burst on chrono and the slow requirement. In theory they could be equal and chrono could do higher dps but who is going to provide slow in fractals? How do you shatter during split phases etc. Fb just has to press a button.
    Boon chrono needs another rebalance. Seize the moment was a step in the right direction for raids but it just doesnt work in fractals. Current boon chrono is amazing in 10man content but just feels lackluster in 5man content.
    Nerfing quickness and alacrity wont solve the problem. It will just make boon supports worse than dps. Pug alacrity renegades are already slot wastes in fractals. Alacrity is only ~15% more dps and doesnt justify the 2k dps most rens have. There need to be more boon specs and firebrand needs a drawback but im not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless. Giving tempest quickness or alacrity would be a huge mistake though. It can already give 10target fury and might and has very high heals. Would rather buff meme specs like scrapper or normalize the boonthief. No more perma 10 target boons but quickness/alac instead or something.

  • PoF specs are way too power crept which makes boon application and support pretty trivial. With chrono you have to maintain complex rotations and keep track of a lot of different cooldowns. And try to imagine this, you actually have to pay attention to your characters position and where you place your skills. With FB and Renegade (and a lot of other PoF specs) its all just passive and aoe spam.

    I dont think there is any easy way to fix the playstyles of the objectively overpowered elite specs. Making arbitrary nerfs or buffs just ends up making a bigger mess of balance and class design. If people want to move away from the mindless aoe gameplay then a lot of elite specs need to be completely overhauled.

  • The main reason why this is happening is that there is litteraly only one alternative and thats chrono. Chrono is very strong in 10 man content where the fights last long enough for chrono dps to happen. So with the current design of classes the best we can get is making one or both of those specs interchangeable with a similar chrono spec.

    The biggest solution would be to give other classes ways of group buffing quickness or alac but i don't see anet giving any of the existing elite specs the ability to do so when we have an expansion and 9 new elite specs on the horizon.

    Realistically we are probably going to have to wait for chrono changes that make it a viable fractal boon support that is, very importantly, on par with the current existing boon support and/or new elite specs that can do that.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Has anyone here played chrono around POF launch? The class was an abomination that could share ~10 boons (q/a included) to its group with a single press of SOI. Thank goodness anet nerfed chrono because at that state chrono was the class that had monopoly on all boons in game.
    Also, we don't have monopoly on q and a now. You need TWO classes now to get these boons. Not one.

  • There need to be more boon specs and firebrand needs a drawback but im not sure how it could be nerfed without making it useless.

    Just wanted to make a comment on this, not exactly relevant to the topic though. I agree that compared to DH and base Guard, the “trade offs” for FB aren’t there as compared to other elite specs. I guess what, their times have longer cds than virtues? My only brainstorm would be to remove the passive effects of the times and make them strictly active abilities, but that would mean that one FB trait and some other base guard traits that interact with their passive abilities would have to be removed/reworked. Again though, that doesn’t relate to the quickness capabilities of FB for this thread.

  • ANet needs to just remove boons on button press/rune proc and just add them to combo fields and improve the combo field system.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    Don't like Firebrands and Renegades? Talk to the people who kept complaining about Chronos and Druids and how much better the game would be if the other two finally saw some play. Oh wait...

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Add 'Aegis' to top of the list :tongue: .

  • Remove boon share everyone has to upkeep their own boons

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Remove boon share everyone has to upkeep their own boons

    If support builds are a too complicated concept to be allowed to exist, why don't we just delete the boons off the game then, and just let everyone stack dps? I am sure that will make the game more interesting.
    Oh wait, i forgot, you wanted to heavily nerf dps as well.
    So i guess we should go back to bearbows spamming 1 and 4.
    Yes, that should be fun. Especially when people will eventually notice that everything got nerfed so hard it's not even possible to do the content anymore.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    no nercro no ranger

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    You're about 5 years too late on this take, most of that has been patched out.> @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Remove boon share everyone has to upkeep their own boons

    If support builds are a too complicated concept to be allowed to exist, why don't we just delete the boons off the game then, and just let everyone stack dps? I am sure that will make the game more interesting.
    Oh wait, i forgot, you wanted to heavily nerf dps as well.
    So i guess we should go back to bearbows spamming 1 and 4.
    Yes, that should be fun. Especially when people will eventually notice that everything got nerfed so hard it's not even possible to do the content anymore.

    I'm like 90% certain that person is a troll.

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Group healing thief builds, ranger stealth builds, group buffing necro builds, potent condition damage builds on any profession...

    I do not see that statement standing up to scrutiny.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    I don't understand the campaign to give quickness to reaper or other classes.

    That won't solve a thing because as long as one class has better application it will shut out the alternatives. The solution is likely to hit quickness itself , reducing it to 20-25% instead of 50%. I don't see alacrity as an issue because if someone is playing chrono they need to invest heavily in boon duration ; renegade is only able to be adequate due to the high critical chance even when running diviner gear , the critical hit chance tanks if you dodge a lot all the way down to as low as 50% (35% from gear + pots/banner/spotter). Diviner renegade is far from high DPS , so unless the "issue" the original poster has is 2x condi RR in 100cm I don't see a point in this complaint.

    Seize the moment power chrono doesn't have as much burst because you need to build up clones , just look at the logs. That's why people utilize CFB/pQB if not using HB.

    I also don't understand the victim mentality of necros, if anyone should be complaining it is thieves because they aren't wanted other than for DPS while being glassier. Reapers have the advantage of quickness if the firebrands play poorly and some boon rip regardless of build if revs are sleeping on the job.

    Class by class:
    Guardians --- shouldn't be complaining, period. CFB+HB/pQB are meta everywhere
    Mesmers --- there's a ramp time on power chrono but other than that it isn't atrocious now that shatters operate without clones plus boon rip on auto ; condi works fine for 100cm and stuff like mai trin
    Revs --- shouldn't be complaining at all, just look at LFG ; for 100cm condi RR is 2 slots of a 5 man party if you go that route
    Warriors --- shouldn't be complaining, it's still meta except some 100cm groups (banners , decent DPS even when running them, "easy to play")
    Rangers --- shouldn't be complaining , it's still meta except maybe 100cm (spotter + frost spirit) ; druid is offmeta heal / condi support ; able to ranged condi DPS for 100cm
    Eles --- weaver is meta ; for overall T4s it isn't horrible as tempest either (and running a few marauder instead of assassin's pieces offsets the HP) with high cleave and doesn't have issues with social awkwardness and other instabilities ; heal tempest is offmeta
    Engineers --- holo is an offmeta spec overall but does high damage and high cleave; for overall T4s it isn't bad
    Necros --- I've seen people run scourges for 100cm and other places such as Siren's Reef ; decent when No Pain No Gain and Vengeance apply boons because boon rip is on low cooldown regardless of which mainhand you run other than staff (who runs staff in PVE?) ; in fractals with lots of adds the life force generation is high (unlike when raiding)
    Thieves --- literally in the worst spot right now because consume plasma isn't a thing , no self quickness to make up for bad groups, and there's no profession specific effects ; condi is a meme

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thieves --- literally in the worst spot right now because consume plasma isn't a thing , no self quickness to make up for bad groups, and there's no profession specific effects ; condi is a meme

    Never call the love of my life a meme. /s

    https://dps.report/5Cl4-20200720-211750_cairn

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @Infusion.7149 said:
    I don't understand the campaign to give quickness to reaper or other classes.

    Because people want variety in the boon support roles, when they have to play the quickness giver role in fractals they want more choice than just quickbrand

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I don't understand the campaign to give quickness to reaper or other classes.

    Because people want variety in the boon support roles, when they have to play the quickness giver role in fractals they want more choice than just quickbrand

    Support scrapper should probably get it before reaper would. Right now it isn't really viable in a 5 man scenario because it takes up a support slot and does no damage if you camp med kit (even HB does damage as long as you aren't in a tome). It would probably gain quickness application on something such as Mass Momentum as that is not typically run on a support build. If placed on Mass Momentum you get a tradeoff, you can either have superspeed on your function gyro and wells (not as relevant for most PVE) or you can have AoE quickness (with the current recharge modification on ressing it wouldn't have good coverage if people down often). In addition , even when built for full offense scrapper DPS isn't very competitive for PVE. The major concern with adding quickness to scrapper is that it currently is dominant in WVW and PVP alike so this is unlikely to happen especially in the current iteration of quickness which is +50%. Placing quickness on a core traitline that isn't inventions / tools is likely a poor idea since holos can make use of it ; currently the only way you have fury output on support scrapper is running Experimental Turrets which is extremely unwieldy.

    People forget that reaper has boon rip regardless of if you spec for it. Not really as relevant for raiding, but very relevant for fractals.

    Mechanically how would that even work on reaper ? it can't be "AoE quickness on life reap" because it would be a braindead trait and the uptime would be poor when there's no life force generation from adds. It would be more likely to be applied to scourge if necro is given quickness (unlikely for a class touted as slow), for example on Abrasive Grit or Sand Savant. Right now in places where there is incoming slow or chill , you can get "free" quickness and alacrity by Nefarious Favor on scourge. If quickness were to be applied on a lesser used trait such as Quickening Thirst it would make sense thematically, but it would probably need to trigger on a weapon attack (mainhand dagger is not used by necro DPS specs) which is clunky design. I highly doubt quickness would ever be given to a traitline such as Spite, Curses, or Soul Reaping. Even if hypothetically necromancers gained AoE quickness output, they currently don't have fury output for party members so you'd end up needing something like a guardian /druid or the lesser used herald, tempest (Zephyr's Boon with aura share) specs for any scenario requiring power damage unless you run pack runes similar to current boon chrono.

    For thief it could be added really easily, AOE quickness on Bountiful Theft or Thrill of the Crime in PVE if that was ever deemed a viable change. Trickery is more often run in PVP and WVW than PVE. Balancing this would be easy because you could have it 10s base duration of quickness in PVE and only 0.25 or 0.5 second in PVP/WVW.

    The #1 concern is it has been mentioned that PVE and WVW/PVP splits are only numerical. So any changes proposed have to take that into account. Short of having the WVW/PVP duration and cooldown completely unplayable there isn't many other ways to split it. That's also a reason not to put onto mechanics such as wells , tricks/traps, anything that can be recharged instantly , etc.

    Quite frankly, having quickness on mantra of solace was a bad design because it made it overloaded (it does three things : aegis, heal, and quickness). The quickness on mantra of potence could have been the primary source and the mantras could have had double cooldown and durations (so instead of aegis spam every 12s base cooldown , ~24 cooldown ; the mantra of potence duration could have been upgraded along with a higher cooldown) to enforce higher minimum boon duration.

    There's a lot of kneejerk buff requests but overall it's likely healthier for the game if mantra of solace was detuned and quickness was reduced to 20-25% in all game modes.

  • Aravind.9610Aravind.9610 Member ✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    There's a lot of kneejerk buff requests but overall it's likely healthier for the game if mantra of solace was detuned and quickness was reduced to 20-25% in all game modes.

    Your suggestion to reduce quickness strength from 50% is useless since most if not all dps classes rely on the fast activation times to output their dps in the first. Reaper for example without the 50% activation speed in shroud would have heavily nerfed damage due to shroud skills activation times inherently being much longer. In order to offset it they would need to reduce the base activation times of a lot of skills which in turn is more work for them so NO!!! I'd rather not have my favorite class's dps nerfed due to your insane idea.

  • LadyHawk.5319LadyHawk.5319 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    but a true monopoly was when chrono was literally the only class you could get both quickness and alacrity for most of raiding history up until relatively recently.

    This. A little history lesson : It used to be you HAD to have a chrono for any sort of organized group. Then came Druid and the "holy dyad" was formed, since druid both healed strongly and is the only class able to give and sustain 25 stacks of might to 10 ppl at one time plus their wonderful boons from their spirits (hitting 10 ppl). Groups became Chrono/Druid/X. But wait! I forget someone. The warrior. Ah yes. Ye ol might/banner/PoS build slave. So there's your "hole trinity", Chrono/Druid/Warrior, built upon Chrono's monopoly on alacrity and quickness. So please, spare me the "nerf Firebrands" rhetoric. You want the classes to have more diversity? Anet is doing that. I am sorry that they chose not to give your favorite classes these boons. Give it time and Anet may, sadly, homogenize all of the classes ... hopefully not because I, for one, find the diversity amongst the classes one of the more engaging aspects of this great game. If it came to be that all classes had the same skills/boons, etc as each other (hence, homogenization), then this would be a boring, one dimensional game.

  • Aceofsppades.6873Aceofsppades.6873 Member ✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @LadyHawk.5319 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    but a true monopoly was when chrono was literally the only class you could get both quickness and alacrity for most of raiding history up until relatively recently.

    . Give it time and Anet may, sadly, homogenize all of the classes ... hopefully not because I, for one, find the diversity amongst the classes one of the more engaging aspects of this great game. If it came to be that all classes had the same skills/boons, etc as each other (hence, homogenization), then this would be a boring, one dimensional game.

    you say that but when a full clear involves playing the same chrono build for hours in a row that feels pretty boring to me. Now we can swap to quickbrand if we want a change of pace or if we think it will be better. I think more of the roles should have that

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @LadyHawk.5319 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    but a true monopoly was when chrono was literally the only class you could get both quickness and alacrity for most of raiding history up until relatively recently.

    . Give it time and Anet may, sadly, homogenize all of the classes ... hopefully not because I, for one, find the diversity amongst the classes one of the more engaging aspects of this great game. If it came to be that all classes had the same skills/boons, etc as each other (hence, homogenization), then this would be a boring, one dimensional game.

    you say that but when a full clear involves playing the same chrono build for hours in a row that feels pretty boring to me. Now we can swap to quickbrand if we want a change of pace or if we think it will be better. I think more of the roles should have that

    I mean how is that any different than playing a bs, or lets say druid?

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    you say that but when a full clear involves playing the same chrono build for hours in a row that feels pretty boring to me. Now we can swap to quickbrand if we want a change of pace or if we think it will be better. I think more of the roles should have that

    I mean how is that any different than playing a bs, or lets say druid?

    It isn't and thats the problem. think those roles should have relatively interchangeable alternatives

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    you say that but when a full clear involves playing the same chrono build for hours in a row that feels pretty boring to me. Now we can swap to quickbrand if we want a change of pace or if we think it will be better. I think more of the roles should have that

    I mean how is that any different than playing a bs, or lets say druid?

    It isn't and thats the problem. think those roles should have relatively interchangeable alternatives

    You can swap druid with tempest + slb or boonthief + slb.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    @sokeenoppa.5384 said:

    @Aceofsppades.6873 said:

    you say that but when a full clear involves playing the same chrono build for hours in a row that feels pretty boring to me. Now we can swap to quickbrand if we want a change of pace or if we think it will be better. I think more of the roles should have that

    I mean how is that any different than playing a bs, or lets say druid?

    It isn't and thats the problem. think those roles should have relatively interchangeable alternatives

    You can swap druid with tempest + slb or boonthief + slb.

    Swapping one class for two is not a "relatively exchangeable alternative". That would be only if you could do one to one swaps. Which, at the moment, you can do practically only with dps slots and offhealer.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Bs has the banner monopoly for like EVER.

    Lets change that, oh wait...

  • The problem isn't that Anet gave Mesmer toys to other classes, its that they gave it to other classes and then made it so that those other classes could provide more and more and more on top of what they gave them without giving Mesmers a decent trade in return to keep them relevant. I can't speak for everyone but I don't believe anyone is asking to go back to the days where only Mesmer could apply quick/alac, but there should also be a reason to take Mesmer's now, which honestly there isn't. Why take a Mesmer when you can take other classes who do the same thing as Mesmer, and do it better and easier than a Mesmer does.
    I can literally go into LFG and even though I'm geared for content be told "Oh no we don't want you on Mesmer, switch to something else." I've had to just start making my own groups for running content most of the time, since my guild isn't around much anymore for guild groups, because most groups want nothing to do with Mesmers. Anet needs to come to some sort of decision for Mesmer, at this point we're either top tier gotta have class or we're kicked from groups simply for existing, we've almost never been in position where we fit well with most groups without being over tuned.

  • @Rubedo.8769 said:
    The problem isn't that Anet gave Mesmer toys to other classes, its that they gave it to other classes and then made it so that those other classes could provide more and more and more on top of what they gave them without giving Mesmers a decent trade in return to keep them relevant. I can't speak for everyone but I don't believe anyone is asking to go back to the days where only Mesmer could apply quick/alac, but there should also be a reason to take Mesmer's now, which honestly there isn't. Why take a Mesmer when you can take other classes who do the same thing as Mesmer, and do it better and easier than a Mesmer does.
    I can literally go into LFG and even though I'm geared for content be told "Oh no we don't want you on Mesmer, switch to something else." I've had to just start making my own groups for running content most of the time, since my guild isn't around much anymore for guild groups, because most groups want nothing to do with Mesmers. Anet needs to come to some sort of decision for Mesmer, at this point we're either top tier gotta have class or we're kicked from groups simply for existing, we've almost never been in position where we fit well with most groups without being over tuned.

    You are a walking portal sadly thats all mesmer was

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

    F2 Jalis on herald is also a passive damage reducer that when activated becomes stability.

    Both Perma Quickness and Alacrity on rev and firerbrand need to be adressed, that should be chrono theme.... for the group....

    We have minstrell perma boons groups on tanky gear... this needs to be adressed, remove quickness share from guardian, becomes only for the user would fix that, and would not hurt the FB's builds.
    Perma alacrity on renegade, while chrono cant be used for that role where it should be the classes best manipulating quickness and alacirty, yet its gameplay doesnt alow this class to be used in most combats as it was themed.
    Give something else for the F4 Renegade, change how chrono works , maybe more quickness and alacrity for other while less duration for itself but stronger boons effect will be just for the user, easyer way to buff alies, last time i checked it needed clones and phantasms for it....
    Remove alacrity from Rev ventari tablet as well....

    Renegade should be more like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/"There's_Nothing_to_Fear!"
    Reduces damage for 5sec max % depending Kala fervor, heal alies at the end of its duration.

    One way to adress chrono is to give traits on well use rather than shatter, since it only works on very small scale combat...

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

    F2 Jalis on herald is also a passive damage reducer that when activated becomes stability.

    Both Perma Quickness and Alacrity on rev and firerbrand need to be adressed, that should be chrono theme.... for the group....

    We have minstrell perma boons groups on tanky gear... this needs to be adressed, remove quickness share from guardian, becomes only for the user would fix that, and would not hurt the FB's builds.
    Perma alacrity on renegade, while chrono cant be used for that role where it should be the classes best manipulating quickness and alacirty, yet its gameplay doesnt alow this class to be used in most combats as it was themed.
    Give something else for the F4 Renegade, change how chrono works , maybe more quickness and alacrity for other while less duration for itself but stronger boons effect will be just for the user, easyer way to buff alies, last time i checked it needed clones and phantasms for it....
    Remove alacrity from Rev ventari tablet as well....

    Renegade should be more like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/"There's_Nothing_to_Fear!"
    Reduces damage for 5sec max % depending Kala fervor, heal alies at the end of its duration.

    One way to adress chrono is to give traits on well use rather than shatter, since it only works on very small scale combat...

    We already had Chrono's monopoly on quickness/ alacrity AND all the rest of the boons in the game. Thanks you, but no, thank you.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

    F2 Jalis on herald is also a passive damage reducer that when activated becomes stability.

    Both Perma Quickness and Alacrity on rev and firerbrand need to be adressed, that should be chrono theme.... for the group....

    We have minstrell perma boons groups on tanky gear... this needs to be adressed, remove quickness share from guardian, becomes only for the user would fix that, and would not hurt the FB's builds.
    Perma alacrity on renegade, while chrono cant be used for that role where it should be the classes best manipulating quickness and alacirty, yet its gameplay doesnt alow this class to be used in most combats as it was themed.
    Give something else for the F4 Renegade, change how chrono works , maybe more quickness and alacrity for other while less duration for itself but stronger boons effect will be just for the user, easyer way to buff alies, last time i checked it needed clones and phantasms for it....
    Remove alacrity from Rev ventari tablet as well....

    Renegade should be more like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/"There's_Nothing_to_Fear!"
    Reduces damage for 5sec max % depending Kala fervor, heal alies at the end of its duration.

    One way to adress chrono is to give traits on well use rather than shatter, since it only works on very small scale combat...

    We already had Chrono's monopoly on quickness/ alacrity AND all the rest of the boons in the game. Thanks you, but no, thank you.

    So u prefer other classes to have it 100% uptime with much lesser effort, my renegade as perma resistance and alacrity, pushes quite hard on energy management but its possible if i dont mess up the timing while being ocndi heavy... and some decent health pool...

    Just need to make diferent traits on chrono for them to specialise in alacrity or quickness and still have space to keep a traitline on chrono to make it as it is now....

    Creating game classes to be good in pve and pvp is not rocket science, but balancing bad designed classes is.... wich is more like this game problem... bad gimmicks rather than fast tactiful clever gameplay.

    Also the reason why gw2 pvp was always been a bad stone in the gaming cuminity.... its known to be a not good pvp game...

    Note~: alacrity and quickness dont stack in intensity so any stack its it 100% effect...

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

    F2 Jalis on herald is also a passive damage reducer that when activated becomes stability.

    Both Perma Quickness and Alacrity on rev and firerbrand need to be adressed, that should be chrono theme.... for the group....

    We have minstrell perma boons groups on tanky gear... this needs to be adressed, remove quickness share from guardian, becomes only for the user would fix that, and would not hurt the FB's builds.
    Perma alacrity on renegade, while chrono cant be used for that role where it should be the classes best manipulating quickness and alacirty, yet its gameplay doesnt alow this class to be used in most combats as it was themed.
    Give something else for the F4 Renegade, change how chrono works , maybe more quickness and alacrity for other while less duration for itself but stronger boons effect will be just for the user, easyer way to buff alies, last time i checked it needed clones and phantasms for it....
    Remove alacrity from Rev ventari tablet as well....

    Renegade should be more like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/"There's_Nothing_to_Fear!"
    Reduces damage for 5sec max % depending Kala fervor, heal alies at the end of its duration.

    One way to adress chrono is to give traits on well use rather than shatter, since it only works on very small scale combat...

    We already had Chrono's monopoly on quickness/ alacrity AND all the rest of the boons in the game. Thanks you, but no, thank you.

    So u prefer other classes to have it 100% uptime with much lesser effort, my renegade as perma resistance and alacrity, pushes quite hard on energy management but its possible if i dont mess up the timing while being ocndi heavy... and some decent health pool...

    Just need to make diferent traits on chrono for them to specialise in alacrity or quickness and still have space to keep a traitline on chrono to make it as it is now....

    Creating game classes to be good in pve and pvp is not rocket science, but balancing bad designed classes is.... wich is more like this game problem... bad gimmicks rather than fast tactiful clever gameplay.

    Also the reason why gw2 pvp was always been a bad stone in the gaming cuminity.... its known to be a not good pvp game...

    Note~: alacrity and quickness dont stack in intensity so any stack its it 100% effect...

    You clearly didn't play chrono when the class was the embodiment of " No Effort - 100% of10~11 boons including ala/quickness uptime". And yes, I would rather have TWO interdependent classes than one class that kittens out all boons with 1 button.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In fractals it will always be "monopoly", we're just looking for the most effecient and safer composition for 99% of fractals and instabilities possible combinations.
    You have only 5 players, you need a package of effective assets to adapt: boonstrip, wall, protection, heal/regen, cleanse ...and big fat red numbers. Once you have the Ren+FB+dps no one is relogging, arguing or doing math about the good classes and builds for this fractal with these instabilities, and later on this one, and this one, and this one ....
    If you nerf FB, buff chrono etc, you will just switch the "monopoly", everyone will adapt fast to the "new meta" and re-equip their blinders.

    We've already seen it at the very beginning of pof:
    "Hey guys, look at FB+Ren, it sounds great, join us" "Meh too weird, no time, need chrono."
    Some weeks later SC record 100CM with Commander Ren and Berserker FB, next day "Quick, get in the hype train, leave your useless chrono".

    For raids ... and strikes... we have already more margin + you already know what you are getting into. And I agree we could have some balance with forgotten specs, like herald, tempest, scrapper, necro; all playable but in the second league. It's been years we're asking for power buff or alacrity/quickness on tempest. :anguished:
    May be look at Liberator's vow + stalwart speed traits, too powerful imo.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rubedo.8769 said:
    The problem isn't that Anet gave Mesmer toys to other classes, its that they gave it to other classes and then made it so that those other classes could provide more and more and more on top of what they gave them without giving Mesmers a decent trade in return to keep them relevant. I can't speak for everyone but I don't believe anyone is asking to go back to the days where only Mesmer could apply quick/alac, but there should also be a reason to take Mesmer's now, which honestly there isn't. Why take a Mesmer when you can take other classes who do the same thing as Mesmer, and do it better and easier than a Mesmer does.
    I can literally go into LFG and even though I'm geared for content be told "Oh no we don't want you on Mesmer, switch to something else." I've had to just start making my own groups for running content most of the time, since my guild isn't around much anymore for guild groups, because most groups want nothing to do with Mesmers. Anet needs to come to some sort of decision for Mesmer, at this point we're either top tier gotta have class or we're kicked from groups simply for existing, we've almost never been in position where we fit well with most groups without being over tuned.

    The problem was the two most powerful boons in the game were both exclusively given to one spec as tools.
    Mesmer also hardly is irrelevant since, still being meta on almost every single Raid encounter, be it as boon chrono (p/c), power chrono, condi chrono, condi mirage or tank. A variety of meta builds and consistent presence hardly anything can compete with.

    Imo, if Chrono should be viable/meta in 5 man again, it would either have to lose Quickness or Alacrity (or at the very least be able to only pick one to focus on via GM's) to slot into Ren or FB, in which case it could then receive buffs as compensation.
    The issue with Chrono is, if you buff it it just becomes the be all end all again, since it covers everything.
    If Chrono lost Quickness for example, and focused entirely on the time theme, aka Alacrity, it could in turn receive some power back like Moa's CC etc., allowing it to compete nicely with Renegade's Fractal role of Alacrity, DPS, CC, Boonstrip, while also providing superior Portal/Blink skips over for example stab road or projectile bubble.

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    If you nerf FB, buff chrono etc, you will just switch the "monopoly", everyone will adapt fast to the "new meta" and re-equip their blinders.

    As for people adapting fast, PuG's are literally still doing the old Chrono GG's to reset Continuum Split, after over a year of Chrono not being meta/in the groups anymore..

    I do agree with the problem of this community being so meta obsessed and just playing the one thing top players/speed runners run and nothing else, but to be fair, we also never had roughly equally powerful supports, with Anet always overnerfing the old along with buffing something new, rather than bringing things carefully together with minor successive changes.

    The biggest problem I see though isn't even the power level per se, but just that supports have not been interchangeable.
    We see "significantly" weaker DPS's being run due to preference over what's absolutely meta, because they are interchangeable, but for Supports, especially with Unique buffs and target caps (Druid) and Quickness and Alacrity (Chrono or Ren/FB), we just never had that.
    That's why imo more classes should have either Quickness or Alacrity, never both, which then can be somewhat interchanged, each with their own different perks (Portal Skips, more frequent Aegis, Stab, Projectile defense, boon rip, etc.) on top of that.

    If things can't be slotted in without too much hassle, people are just going to stick to the one most efficient support combination.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @Hannelore.8153 said:
    Don't forget that Firebrand also has a monopoly over group Stability, which barely exists elsewhere. This gives them a significant advantage in encounters that entirely on dependant on it, like T3/T4 Solid Ocean Fractal.

    Ever since Eilte specs were introduced, they've been reducing what a single class can do, ironically by adding more to other classes. This happens because you end up with exclusive boons or other damage/support mechanics added to the game which appear like additional content, but instead cheapen that class and make other classes undesirable, or completely incapable of the role.

    In the Core game at release, everyone could do everything, and its what made the game.

    Revenant disagrees. Actually, Jailis stability is arguable better and more reliable in FOTM setting.

    F2 Jalis on herald is also a passive damage reducer that when activated becomes stability.

    Both Perma Quickness and Alacrity on rev and firerbrand need to be adressed, that should be chrono theme.... for the group....

    We have minstrell perma boons groups on tanky gear... this needs to be adressed, remove quickness share from guardian, becomes only for the user would fix that, and would not hurt the FB's builds.
    Perma alacrity on renegade, while chrono cant be used for that role where it should be the classes best manipulating quickness and alacirty, yet its gameplay doesnt alow this class to be used in most combats as it was themed.
    Give something else for the F4 Renegade, change how chrono works , maybe more quickness and alacrity for other while less duration for itself but stronger boons effect will be just for the user, easyer way to buff alies, last time i checked it needed clones and phantasms for it....
    Remove alacrity from Rev ventari tablet as well....

    Renegade should be more like https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/"There's_Nothing_to_Fear!"
    Reduces damage for 5sec max % depending Kala fervor, heal alies at the end of its duration.

    One way to adress chrono is to give traits on well use rather than shatter, since it only works on very small scale combat...

    We already had Chrono's monopoly on quickness/ alacrity AND all the rest of the boons in the game. Thanks you, but no, thank you.

    So u prefer other classes to have it 100% uptime with much lesser effort, my renegade as perma resistance and alacrity, pushes quite hard on energy management but its possible if i dont mess up the timing while being ocndi heavy... and some decent health pool...

    Just need to make diferent traits on chrono for them to specialise in alacrity or quickness and still have space to keep a traitline on chrono to make it as it is now....

    Creating game classes to be good in pve and pvp is not rocket science, but balancing bad designed classes is.... wich is more like this game problem... bad gimmicks rather than fast tactiful clever gameplay.

    Also the reason why gw2 pvp was always been a bad stone in the gaming cuminity.... its known to be a not good pvp game...

    Note~: alacrity and quickness dont stack in intensity so any stack its it 100% effect...

    You clearly didn't play chrono when the class was the embodiment of " No Effort - 100% of10~11 boons including ala/quickness uptime". And yes, I would rather have TWO interdependent classes than one class that kittens out all boons with 1 button.

    Still not hard to balance :\ just split in traits where players cant have both at same time :\, perma boon bal with mostly or almost perma quickness is awfull as well.

    What serves now a chronomanver build that doesnt use chrono utilities, ur mostly forced to run core, kinda reminds guardian core, go mediguard or GTFO builds.

    This is bad design.... chrono utilities are mostly useless, they just needed for u specialize in quickness or alacrity via trait options... and chrono would fit the 2 roles but never both.

    But i guess on minstrell FB carries better the players on the boon spam ball...

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 21, 2020

    It's just a problem with Firebrand giving too much.
    FB gives Aegis, Quickness and Fury, all three being extremely powerful boons, as well as some Might.

    And if they decide they wanna forgo DPS, they can go Minstrel and also provide Healing as well.
    FB will forever be the absolute king of support builds unless something is done about their wanton Quickness vomit in PvE.

    If yu ask me what can be hit to throw a wrench into Quickbrand builds, it's gonna be slapping Stalwart Speed.
    That trait turns Aegis share and Stab share into more Quickness, which is utterly busted considering it's 2s base duration Quickness.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    You clearly didn't play chrono when the class was the embodiment of " No Effort - 100% of10~11 boons including ala/quickness uptime".

    Funny that with all that "no effort" claim, a typical pug chronomancer was running 30-60% uptime
    (also, if you haven't noticed, many of those boons you speak of weren't actually coming from chrono. Chrono was just upkeeping them).

    And yes, I would rather have TWO interdependent classes than one class that kittens out all boons with 1 button.

    And i'd rather have one slot class-locked than two.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    You clearly didn't play chrono when the class was the embodiment of " No Effort - 100% of10~11 boons including ala/quickness uptime".

    Funny that with all that "no effort" claim, a typical pug chronomancer was running 30-60% uptime
    (also, if you haven't noticed, many of those boons you speak of weren't actually coming from chrono. Chrono was just upkeeping them).

    And yes, I would rather have TWO interdependent classes than one class that kittens out all boons with 1 button.

    And i'd rather have one slot class-locked than two.

    Funny you say these boons didn't come from chrono. Please check your sources because you are totally wrong here and looks like you did not play chrono before the Oct 2018 first justified nerf. Before that first nerf, SOI SHARED all the boons that chrono had to a 5 people. So running Bountiful Disillusionment - a Master Chaos trait + SOI allowed chrono to permanently share and maintain at least 8 boons on his subgroup. Of course back then you had to gear Commanders for boon duration, but overall boon duration was already insanely long on these traits so yes...it was indeed a '1 button' play style in terms of boons.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sure, it shared the boons, but Bountiful Disillusionment+ SoI from a single chrono was not enough to perma generate full stack 8+ boons. This was being achieved by having two chronos bouncing boons against each other, and with them getting supplied with some level of random boon generation from other sources.
    It was possible to easily check that by taking some profession without any natural boon generation alongside a single chrono to golem and check boon upkeep on them.

    Yes, that build was very good at its job, perhaps even indeed too good, but that's not the reason to overstate what it really could do.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Sure, it shared the boons, but Bountiful Disillusionment+ SoI from a single chrono was not enough to perma generate full stack 8+ boons. This was being achieved by having two chronos bouncing boons against each other, and with them getting supplied with some level of random boon generation from other sources.
    It was possible to easily check that by taking some profession without any natural boon generation alongside a single chrono to golem and check boon upkeep on them.

    Yes, that build was very good at its job, perhaps even indeed too good, but that's not the reason to overstate what it really could do.

    Actually until early 2018, Bountiful Disillusionment was AoE boons (something Kitty figured out and started to abuse in Nov. 2017 and it spread from there) and with...was it Revenant or Herald runes for Resistance?...it was capable of upkeeping full 12 boons for 5 if played well, except just 14 stacks of might. Obviously Bountiful Disil. got nerfed ASAP to its current form which caused chronos to SoI bounce the boons and resulted in changing SoI to its current boon extending form. Now mesmer needs to choose between chrono (full quickness+alacrity) and staff/axe+pistol mirage (full might+fury for 10+some quickness and other boons. Nobody prolly noticed but they boosted Staff Ambush to 10-target lately and now mirage can do ridiculous dps while providing boons at some bosses with basic 9s in staff/9s in axe rotation.)

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    there is no any chance to have choose. There is meta. Thats all. If chromo or other get some boots, and sc make new videos that train will have place only for them.
    What use non standard setup and biuld ? make your own guild static and don't use/don't prioritize lfg/ No one will disturb your.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    Alacrity and Healings not really needed right?

    I mean everyone talks about "they removed the trinity (Tank, Healer, DPS)"

    I mean there is no trinity anymore right? OR IS THERE!!?!?!?! OR WORSE than the trinity!?!?!?!?!

    ...

    I mean cmon now.
    You can join any raid or fractal and you don't need 1 of something or 1 of something, something, something right????
    Any professions is ok to join right???

    No trinity right????

    ...

    ...

    Simple just make your own party right??? Dont wanna get caught up in alacrity monopoly, just make your own party!!!!!

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    Simple just make your own party right??? Dont wanna get caught up in alacrity monopoly, just make your own party!!!!!

    If we wanna talk about current content and game health, sure.
    But Anet also has a track record of not looking at PvE balance and hitting things correctly.

    Who's to say that in the future that there won't be "Harder content" which absolutely requires these Quick-Alacrity buffers in order to beat?
    Then this is when the monopoly becomes an issue because this gating will cause a huge number of builds to become unviable for clearing content.

    And the worst part is Gw2 doesn't even have gear progression past Ascended level stats, so yu can't just revisit a content later with "higher stats" and tackle it again.
    Yur stuck not clearing that content until yu start bowing to the meta or hoping Anet nerfs the boss.
    (which is funny because for the case of Boneskinner, the meta setup ripped it apart so hard they had to buff him)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • A guardian can't tank as well as a mesmer, what does that tell you?

    In regards to healing, it's probably the only class that makes sense to be the meta healer, being directly related to monks.
    Factor in the fact that Anet decided not to give Barrier to guardians... erm.

    Guardian should be a meta tank and healer.. Chrono should be able to give alac/quickness, and maybe stay highest DPS if you like...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Animism.7530 said:
    A guardian can't tank as well as a mesmer, what does that tell you?

    That you're not very aware of what guardian is capable of.

    Many classes are capable of tanking, and some can do a better job at it than chrono. That was never the issue.

    Chrono was tanking not because it was the best tank, but because it was the best suited to it, and was losing the least, out of the support options at the time (which were chrono, druid and banner warrior). And because losing additional slot to a dedicated tank was far less efficient than using one of the roles that already had to sacrifice the damage for other stuff, so weren't losing anything by replacing one of the stats with toughness.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • And yes, I would rather have TWO interdependent classes than one class that kittens out all boons with 1 button.

    And i'd rather have one slot class-locked than two.

    There's 3 class-locked actually.