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  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2020

    The issue isnt that chrono who barly can share any boons anymore or fb who can boonball to 5 ppl or alac who can perma alac and also mighy with 2 button presses. The real issue is other classes either has not much boon output or reliant boon output wich can be fixed without destroying previous but at same time if every class could do everything the classes would feel like copy pasta of the other. Chrono today feel clunky slow and if not for soi it would been trashed for something wich actually can provide boons beyond rellying on 2 skills to do so. This game has issue it nerfs meta but sometimes it ends up just making 1 spec or class useless to point it would be better to just delete spec. Herald is like this its max dps is 20k or so on golem. Or scrapper before they finally fixed it before gyro well and function f5 scrapper was weaker than core

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Herald is like this its max dps is 20k or so on golem.

    It is not that bad anymore.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    A guardian can't tank as well as a mesmer, what does that tell you?

    That you're not very aware of what guardian is capable of.

    Many classes are capable of tanking, and some can do a better job at it than chrono. That was never the issue.

    Chrono was tanking not because it was the best tank, but because it was the best suited to it, and was losing the least, out of the support options at the time (which were chrono, druid and banner warrior). And because losing additional slot to a dedicated tank was far less efficient than using one of the roles that already had to sacrifice the damage for other stuff, so weren't losing anything by replacing one of the stats with toughness.

    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    A guardian can't tank as well as a mesmer, what does that tell you?

    That you're not very aware of what guardian is capable of.

    Many classes are capable of tanking, and some can do a better job at it than chrono. That was never the issue.

    Chrono was tanking not because it was the best tank, but because it was the best suited to it, and was losing the least, out of the support options at the time (which were chrono, druid and banner warrior). And because losing additional slot to a dedicated tank was far less efficient than using one of the roles that already had to sacrifice the damage for other stuff, so weren't losing anything by replacing one of the stats with toughness.

    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Firebrand is a weak healing build.

    Also, Chronos can easily AFK and give out both alacrity and quickness if they so wish. What's so hard about renegade, chrono or firebrand is dealing adequate DPS while giving out those boons.

    minecrafter

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    A guardian can't tank as well as a mesmer, what does that tell you?

    That you're not very aware of what guardian is capable of.

    Many classes are capable of tanking, and some can do a better job at it than chrono. That was never the issue.

    Chrono was tanking not because it was the best tank, but because it was the best suited to it, and was losing the least, out of the support options at the time (which were chrono, druid and banner warrior). And because losing additional slot to a dedicated tank was far less efficient than using one of the roles that already had to sacrifice the damage for other stuff, so weren't losing anything by replacing one of the stats with toughness.

    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

    Sure dont mind guardian getting barrier and losing aegis not sure the guardians agrees.

  • @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

    Sure dont mind guardian getting barrier and losing aegis not sure the guardians agrees.

    Go for it. The functionality and usage of Aegis is pretty silly given that it is marred by circumstance. Trash mobs doing irrelevant attacks can render it utterly useless with at best, a constrained instantaneous, focused use that's able to (almost randomly) block some rather devastating attacks for multiple players surrounding.

    Might as well be barrier.

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the solution when it comes to group roles and things like this is to just build out all of the professions that are currently "meta" since it will always exist. FB and Alacren are favored because they strike a balance in making encounters more forgiving while still maintaining decent DPS as support. If you take a group of 5 or 10 highly skilled players with deep knowledge of different professions and challenged them to do an encounter with a different composition each time I think we'd see a ton of different clears using different strategies. That also takes a lot of time and effort and most pugs just want to clear the content and get it done with. I'm all for more professions getting getting ways to support allies, though! I'm excited to see what the new expansion brings.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support...

    Okay, let me rephrase. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a boon support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at boon support.
    Is that better understandable?

    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    It's not about a dps difference between different classes on tank role. It's about how much dps a class loses by being placed in tank role compared to how it would do in its main role in non-tank slot.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

    Chrono hardly tanks anything in todays meta, its most of the time druid or alac that tanks.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • what the previous poster said

    minecrafter

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

    Sure dont mind guardian getting barrier and losing aegis not sure the guardians agrees.

    Guardian and FB dont need to loose blocks actually its just depends the barrier value....

    IMO barrier should be removed from scourge, scourge imo should act as a debuffer and condition area control and do damage towards those roles.

    I always felt that FB could provide barrier on block and on burn cleansing and a trait for self barrier gain, similiar to what ventari has, but mantras active would increase the gain to arround 400-500 every 3 sec slightly stronger than barrier gain from ventari with is arround 380-400.
    A trait that converts X% of regen barrier, this would makehaveing rev or druid in same team of of the fb since they are the classes with high regen (rev passive regen is arround 1.1k sec X 10 allies, druis as an absurdregen spike value).
    Even guardian core virtues, the 3rd virtue pulse could be barrier rather the useless small heal, ence the trait from vitues could increase it and pulse to to allies.
    And nerf minstrell stats, remove toughness stats swaping to that value between precision and something else :P

    Yes Anet has BIG issues on class design... chrono and druid are no exceptions either...

    Barrier belongs to paladin and guardians alike Anet cant twist my mind.... :D its Anet that is wrong :P
    Anet is trying to reinvent the wheel but their wheel ends in a triangle or in a square!

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    IMO barrier should be removed from scourge, scourge imo should act as a debuffer and condition area control and do damage towards those roles.

    So, you want scourge to be completely useless in any kind of more demanding pve content. Duly noted.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Animism.7530 said:
    Yes... this translates in reality to being a better, more useful tank.

    No more than a banner makes warrior a "better, more useful dps"

    Comparing two different things... but, banner warrior has been meta since the beginning and isn't a full DPS build. The class also has basically nothing else to make it particularly outstanding for anything PVE...

    It's exactly the same. The things you say make mesmer "a better, more useful tank" have nothing to do with how good mesmer is as a tank. They have a lot to do with how good it is as a support however, as well as how bad at dps it is while being good at support.
    It's not that chrono is best as a tank. It's just that other classes are better used in non-tank roles.
    (just as an anecdote - personally i saw three other classes - guardian, necro and ele, being used in the tank role, and none of them did any worse job at it than chrono does)

    A tank is a support... Mesmer is used as the main tank support. Banner warrior is a separate division of its own. What are you confusing yourself with here?
    Besides which, DPS difference on a full tank build is generally always going to be a fairly negligible value...

    We got a firebrand tank in my static do fine on all places were you dont want chrono for other things like for example escort for portal and twins for alac/quickness on 1 class per side.

    I'm not saying other builds can't tank, I'm pointing out Chrono is by far the best tank for general use; which is totally bizarre as if Arenanet has had an identity crisis with their classes.

    I mean barrier on scourge... really?
    Am I going insane, or is there a very close connection between barrier and one profession, but not one with scourge...
    Barrier.... Guardian... These words may just have a shared meaning as if they should go together.

    Sure dont mind guardian getting barrier and losing aegis not sure the guardians agrees.

    Go for it. The functionality and usage of Aegis is pretty silly given that it is marred by circumstance. Trash mobs doing irrelevant attacks can render it utterly useless with at best, a constrained instantaneous, focused use that's able to (almost randomly) block some rather devastating attacks for multiple players surrounding.

    Might as well be barrier.

    So, how many trash mobs are stripping your aegis on raid boss fights or in fractal CM fights?

    You do realize that the main healing for guardian comes from aegis being stripped via the Pure of Heart trait right? (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Heart ). It's literally the lifeblood of healing guard and makes up the main non big cooldown (aka Tome 2) regular healing the class has. Oh I know, those staff 2 and 4s looks nice, but if you'd bothered to check where the majority of healing actually comes from, you'd soon realize that those skills are your small cooldown burst heals. The majority of chip damage and regular healing comes from both aegis blocking attacks as well as healing players.

    If you remove Aegis, which by the way is central to the guardian profession and always has been, in favor of barrier, all you end up with is a watered down no heal giving barrier guardian.

    If you are spamming your aegis you are simply a bad healing guardian. Perfect example of player suggestions from players who have no clue how the class works.

  • @The Fear.3865 said:
    Bs has the banner monopoly for like EVER.

    Lets change that, oh wait...

    yeah give spirit and banner to chrono plz

  • Johnny.1634Johnny.1634 Member ✭✭✭

    I just want Rangers pets to be fixed and actually gain benefits from Quickness :tongue:

    8+ Years of Ranger Pets having Bugged Attack Animations, unaffected by Quickness and Disjointing attacks.
    Help this finally get fixed
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/569/pets-not-affected-by-quickness#latest