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Thoughts on today's "balance"?

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  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about holo nades (nerfed) holo might stacking (nerfed) and knockback scrapper (nerfed). Core guard bunker was ridiculous, it's still okay after yesterday's patch, but this nerf was also spot on, with only one trait modification. Tornado nerf also good. Can't say anything about Renegade.

    You can argue that there are still some changes that are required (Lich form AA, Shocking Aura, Shiro rev), but nothing REALLY groundbreaking as the things that were nerfed.

    The point is, it's very disappointing that in such a long time they did the absolute minimum.. But at least, this time very accurate. I am still hopeful we will get some reworks and buffs in the near future.

    For me, the quality of this patch is 8.5/10. 'Content' wise, it's a 2/10.

    edit: one note though, Flashbang nerf is still stupid.. reduction of blind is NOT the way to nerf blind spam. mesmer got an ICD, so why not do the same for engi?

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Bad:
    -Nerfing everything on engineer EXCEPT explosive entrance is not the way to go. EE is a badly designed cheese-trait, and once again Anet is making the self-destructive mistake of nerfing around the cheese instead of actually addressing problems at their core. When EE finally does get a proper nerf, engie will likely come out drastically underpowered.

    I don't get why they keep doing this.

    For the last year FB has been receiving non-stop nerfs to every aspect of it EXCEPT writ-of-persistence, and now they finally do it there's literally nothing left of FB. Similarly, Mirage receiving non-stop nerfs last year to every aspect EXCEPT the core of the problem, being Mirage Cloak, and when they finally address it Mirage goes to F-tier.

    This is your future Holosmiths. Have fun with every single aspect of engineer getting nerfed EXCEPT EE, until they finally give in sometime in middle of 2021.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Ovark.2514 said:
    All good changes for the long-term health of PvP. That said, the flash-bang nerf completely missed the point and needs to be completely reworked. Also, revive skills were not touched so I guess I'm still not PvPing for a while. This patch has made me realize that they are probably putting all their resources into designing the new elite specs so they are letting balance fall to the wayside until the expansion. Hope it's worth it. . .

    Thats because cmc is not allowed to balance skills, e.g. he cannot change what a skill does.

    It's a start. He's still allowed to touch numbers, which pissses me off, but the less this man is allowed to change, the better. In an ideal world he wouldn't be allowed to pick even his own character's nickname, but I'll take whatever I get.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

    You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dronte.3416 said:
    I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about ...

    Sorry buddy, I stopped reading your post after this. The game should never be "balanced" based on complaints from vocal minority on the forums. Period.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

    You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

    You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

    You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

    You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

    Running away isn't fighting.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

    You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

    You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

    Running away isn't fighting.

    You dont know strategy, right?

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    Without sb5 thief would deserve some buffs, but since it exists thief doesnt

    You realise Thief mains want to play other game modes too right? Maybe go WvW roaming for a change. Or some 1v1s. Or like now.. ranked 3v3. Or maybe actually support your teammates. I'd rather give up Shortbow#5 and get a real rework of this class then be a decap BOT that's useless elsewhere. I encourage you. Play this whole 3v3 season as a Thief. You'll change your outlook quite quickly. Also turn off chat if u do that.

    You do realise that thief is one of the best wvw roamers because they can easily disengage

    Running away isn't fighting.

    You dont know strategy, right?

    There's a difference between strategic disengage and a forced disengage.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    The only people that think thief is good right now and need nerfs are the people who've never played it before February, when it was actually good.

    If we were to put the 2 year old pre-patch thief changes into the game right now, their heads would spin like a top.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    The only people that think thief is good right now and need nerfs are the people who've never played it before February, when it was actually good.

    If we were to put the 2 year old pre-patch thief changes into the game right now, their heads would spin like a top.

    And that's what i'm stressing out. Over the years i've seen so many nerfs and im astonished that people ask for further nerfs. Like.. when isit gonna be enough for u guys? When all classes will have 1 dodge and 1 auto-attack? Perfect balance achieved? Not only thief but all classes right now are so shaved off it's just unfun to play anymore. Some classes were out-right destroyed some are still somewhat viable. Put those guys into HoT or pre-HoT days they would be amazed how different it was. Every1 would say "omg nerf that nerf that nerf that. too much to deal with.." Some OP builds yes but it was fun and skilled. Instead of nerfs ppl should ask for buffs. Atleast that way game might have a chance of being fun again.

    When it comes to thief i can agree it was somewhat OP early HoT days (and still it wasnt a class able to stand on its own in PvP. only skilled players could actually hold a point if it came to that). But then again.. all classes are OP right after expansion hits. It's a good strategy to sell the expansion. After that.. community joined hands and made a good effort to destroy it.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    @Dave.6819 what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems ...why would it be all of a sudden OP now, than it was ever before?

    It's people complaining about mechanics they don't know how to deal with because their class has ALSO been gutted to the point of uselessness...its just that thief is now the proverbial "Ruler of the Earth rather than a Servant in heaven."

    What Dave said is absolutely correct, but nobody seems to see that, it's absurd to me. It's an infinite regress and we are on the trajectory where the end result will be when we are given 1 dodge and 1 stick.

  • Woof.8246Woof.8246 Member ✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    @Dave.6819 what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems ...why would it be all of a sudden OP now, than it was ever before?

    It's people complaining about mechanics they don't know how to deal with because their class has ALSO been gutted to the point of uselessness...its just that thief is now the proverbial "Ruler of the Earth rather than a Servant in heaven."

    What Dave said is absolutely correct, but nobody seems to see that, it's absurd to me. It's an infinite regress and we are on the trajectory where the end result will be when we are given 1 dodge and 1 stick.

    So if people gather and lynch conditions , the company shouldn't nerf them then ? (please dont!)

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

  • @Tayga.3192 said:

    Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

    and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations suc and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

  • Teb.6980Teb.6980 Member ✭✭

    Regular grenade barrage, untouched, has absurd damage (#1 dmg dealing toolkit ability for engi)
    Shrapnel grenades, untouched, they easily do 7k if it crits along with bleeding

    Enhanced storage capacity was cool & fine if you actually played holo and not the little coward that simply heats up the tank then disables to spam grenade autos. Which will probably still happen, only with ~30% less might. Thanks for not killing corona burst. All holos, even non-op, use it

    However I insist with the count of grenades: too many, they stack too hard thus making the explosives traitline seem OP
    (When it's not, particuarly if what you play is mortar o ranged holo. The common difference with grenades is they do only 33% of the vuln/ferocity stacking that grenades do. Not to mention the barrage and minor barrage which each do like 6 stacks of vuln for free lmao)

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

    and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations suc and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

    Really it’s because the initiative system promotes camping in a weapon set for damage and using the other set for utility.

    Shortbow 5 is good mobility. Shortbow can also AoE poison and blast weakness. The bouncing projectiles are also helpful for certain niche situations. It’s a great alternative to a more damage focused set.

    Let’s say Anet replaces Shortbow 5. With what? A targeted smoke field? Giving shortbow native stealth access. A teleport to an ally with a longer range? A skill that teleports enemies within the radius in random directions?

    Then we’d still have to talk about whether and how to buff the rest of thief sustain to make up for the lost mobility.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @c u again.3267 said:
    absolutely nothing will change, good job not touching decap scrapper/core guardian lol. another patch that makes the game more braindead

    decap scrapper was touched. throw mines now on 30s cd, bulwark gyro 30s cd, system shocker halved in effectiveness per cc.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

    Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

    Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

    and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations suc and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

    Have a look at that. Thieves certainly didn't suck then. They haven't sucked in a while. Their weapons are pretty good even still.
    And the irony? Damage was even lower back then than it is now, including condition damage, because burn and poison were capped at 1 stack. As well, this was pre-boon duration nerfs back in February.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:
    Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs.

    I don't agree with this. There is no sense in buffing something needlessly just because there's "too many nerfs". If those nerfs are necessary, which currently they are, then proceed with nerfs. Buffing anything right now will start to reintroduce powercreep and land us right back where we started: a 1 shot fiesta where skill is irrelevant.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:
    So no Thief was never OP as a profession.

    There is almost no reason to care about this though. No class is op as a profession as far as I know.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @dronte.3416 said:
    I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about ...

    Sorry buddy, I stopped reading your post after this. The game should never be "balanced" based on complaints from vocal minority on the forums. Period.

    I don't even think they do that. They certainly aren't listening to their player base that is 9 years and 20,000+ games deep in experienced play.

    Their balance decisions are just weird man. As if they had a prophet in the office who could hear RNGesus himself, and it was that guy telling them what to nerf, randomly.

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    0/10, why do anything at all when so little has been adjusted.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    If they patch Supply Crate, they ran out of ideas.

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @dronte.3416 said:
    I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about ...

    Sorry buddy, I stopped reading your post after this. The game should never be "balanced" based on complaints from vocal minority on the forums. Period.

    I don't even think they do that. They certainly aren't listening to their player base that is 9 years and 20,000+ games deep in experienced play.

    Their balance decisions are just weird man. As if they had a prophet in the office who could hear RNGesus himself, and it was that guy telling them what to nerf, randomly.

    Could be, could be lol...but remember jokes about how anet will 'balance' problematic EE and nades by just reducing blind on flashbang? Their RNGstradamus might have an extra super power to pick most random and useless suggestions and memes from the forum threads and process them through their balance RNG algorithm.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ovark.2514
    in pve people play whats easy and whats fun.
    necro is the most played class along guard and it has nothing to do with necro being amazing and everything to do with necro being easy as kitten and just relaxing to play.
    @KrHome.1920
    nado and lich form...
    why the kitten does lichform deal MORE dmg in pvp then pve??
    why the kitten does nado have longer cd in pve then pvp? do poor mobs complain about being controlled?
    @Master Ketsu.4569
    what stealth rework ideas? have not seen a single rework, only nerfs that make it bad or nerfs that make it useless/unusable.
    @Dave.6819
    thief is undisputed king in its role, forcing thief to 1v1 is like putting square peg into a round hole, heck if you actually tried and devoted lots of time and practice I bet you could make 1v1 thief that wins good chunk of 1v1, but its not worth the effort since you have competition of several classes and it takes effort, why not grab sb5 and win by default ? If you wanna duelist make a duelist or make sacrifices to be a duelist, why the kitten would a fastest build in the game win 1v1?
    also thiefs variety is killed by thief itself, there is lots of thief builds that are good against other classes but are held back by another thief build

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @felix.2386 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    Thief is a perfect example what happens when community hates it.

    Never falling out of meta is a bad thing? Interesting

    Go play it then. Report back how that went for you.

    Last time I played it (around 2 weeks ago) I destroyed pretty much everyone in 1v1s without to much trouble, if I got pressured I could easily disengage. Thief is one of the strongest classes in PvP alone due to its mobility

    Sure sure. Go duel a skilled (insert any class here) player for once and then report your results. What your argument will be then? That it's only a +1 and decap class? I've seen way too many biased players who hate thieves with all their guts over the years and i won't go into this pointless discussion cuz it's pointless. If it's "meta" and good for you then you clearly not maining a thief. You just casually login and make a decision that "its still OP and needs a nerf" and log out for another month and go into forums and ask for further nerfs? That's exactly what destroyed this game. For once leave balance for devs to figure out instead of killing this game even further. For example. Over the years i've seen tons of OP builds but i never felt the need to go to forums to trash on those profs. cuz i know the consequences long-term. I still silently played my main and watched in forums how it's being devoured by the community. And i'm talkin 6-5 years span. So. Let's continue this downhill and see where that will take us.

    Are you actually trying to say that thief is weak while it's played by every mAT team?

    K i'll tell you in other words then. Imagine there's no more Shortbow#5.

    imagine warrior without shield

    You mean anything but core warrior right? SB can't afford to take it anymore, and berserker... kek... is trash outside of pve

    rev without staff

    You mean current rev? Staff is a dead weapon. Its worthless.

    necro without staff

    I mean, necro's with staff is a free bag most of the time.... free real-estate really.

    ele without focus

    Cant comment, rarely see ele's

    imagine any class with other any pvp used weapon, your point is null.

    So like 75% of the playable classes? Messmer is trash, warrior is trash, rev is trash, thief seems to be in that boat, ele is suffering apparently, Ranger is alright but not at its best right now, and guardian just suffered a HUGE nerf according to everyone. So engineer and necromancer seem to me to be the ones who are at the very least, not in a situation of "Why would I use the majority of this when only three things work."

    and you do realize thief can't 1v1 because you are taking shortbow right? there are plenty of cheesy 1v1 build that's been played in plat that don't involve shortbow.
    thief isn't stuck at roaming and ganking because it is bad at 1v1, it is stuck at roaming and ganking because it is the best roamer in the entire game by a large margin compared to the second spot.
    also another reason is that stealth gets point decapped, this is literally the only thing that's hindering thief 1v1.

    i have no idea why would you want to compete with 8 other classes as side noder when you can dominate in your own area,
    because there can only be 2-3 side noder role in each meta, and you would be complaining how thief isnt meta.
    i wish warrior could've played another role other then side node main for 8 years, so that it wouldn't be the class with the least meta up time since release. (main reason i switched to rev) 90% of warrior mains are forced multiclasser, while most of thief mains are just.....thief mains. be thankful.

    As a rev main I wish they'd never of shaved off our versatility and our defensives on our weapons/weapon utility. Rev feels horrible now, one of the worst classes in game if you really want to have all the tools needed; To function in a competitive scene against anyone who knows the class or the game. I dunk on rev's all the time, so they are not in any better a place than warrior (Warrior is just a bit worse off because its been left with broken kitten traits.)

    Again a core guardian/dragon-hunter likely could do what any type of warrior/rev can do better than they can. Guardian is the best heavy class in the game right now and I doubt even with the firebrand nerfs that this will change; Unless we all dog-pile guardian and spam and abuse its broken toys.

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs.

    I don't agree with this. There is no sense in buffing something needlessly just because there's "too many nerfs". If those nerfs are necessary, which currently they are, then proceed with nerfs. Buffing anything right now will start to reintroduce powercreep and land us right back where we started: a 1 shot fiesta where skill is irrelevant.

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    The devs have been consistently making this games pvp worse every year, I don't understand why they literally do the bare minimum and a poor job of it even while doing what little they do. I get pve is their main source of income but do the not think having more pvp player or more pvp players staying with the game will also lead into a lot of those players also dipping into pve. Looking at the effort over the last couple yrs I cant understand how a company could put so little into modes they included into the game in the first place, why bother including them in the first place then. I mean if they were doing consistent and impactful balance attemps on a regular basis but the games balance was still trash than it still would be a positive change cuz atleast it would show their trying at least lol.
    And feb patch does not count as the actual patch was a huge dps blanket nerf across all classes with zero thought to each individual class and its balance comparative to the surrounding roster, it effected every class greatly yes but in actuality is they easiest/laziest way to implement a patch to give the illusion of a BIG PATCH.
    Honestly I'm surprised its pvp population is still what it is in today's gaming age, it's not gonna get any better here at gw2 so the fact everyone keeps playing anyway regardless kinda tells anet that it's ok to barely support pvp for yrs cuz at worst ull complain in forums but still log on and play lol, so why would they bother to change.
    I wonder the ban time I'm getting for this puppy lmao.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭

    I would expect some new Amulets with HoT and PoF stats such as Viper or Trailblaizer ...

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    In an ideal world he wouldn't be allowed to pick even his own character's nickname, but I'll take whatever I get.

    Lmao

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    You say dmg is lower..then you state how high a rev can hit with skills on low CD...after that you state that sustain must be nerfed...when that happen it will be fun to watch people scatter once we go back to oneshot builds as @Thornwolf.9721 said.

    He nerfed sustain in Feb and we still have high burst builds....people still claim that dmg is low..when there are threads pointing how high some builds can get...soulbeast hitting for 10k burst, grenades holos...if the sustain get any lower ...lol

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    Again I will restate, I've never had an issue killing revenants in WvW before or after the patch. If assassins' herald is overperforming than find out why and fix it, but do NOT dunk on EVERY build with blanket nerfs that remove core features of a class. And NEVER remove the fun aspect of a class in favor of this warped sense of balance, MMO's can never be balanced and the more you try the more you strip out most of the fun aspects that keep people invested in their class. And then people either move to another class or leave; And it seems like more people are leaving than adapting which to me signifies its a bad change. (not this patch specifically more the mixture of them, since the feb patch.)

    I never ran the Assassins power herald, its not the playstyle I enjoy for the class. I liked running as a duelist/bruiser and being more about boxing with my opponent which just doesn't work with the way they've "changed" the class. Im angry because a class I loved I can no longer stomach playing, and Im mad because it continues to happen and my friends keep leaving the game to move on to other mmo's. One's Im not really going to move to just because they went to it, such as WoW with all of the blizzard bs I dont want to have anything to do with their products right now. But yet most of my friends are moving to WoW or Final fantasy, both of which I wont play and those that moved to ESO are going there for the superior PVE of which Im not interested in.

    Im also jaded and have been here since launch, and the game has never felt as bad as it is. Sure my current fave class whom I moved too is preforming well but Im not gonna be surprised if it gets gutted, nerfed and brought to a place of irrelevancy and the build I run which is not of the norm gets indirectly murdered. I have no faith in A-net to do anything with competitive game modes that is worth-while or lucrative and I feel that a lot of the changes made are malicious and done solely in spite of the playerbase. It also sucks but we have to admit that the MAJORITY of the player-base is horrible at the game, to such a degree that their screams for balance I feel are not indicitive of what a class truly is capable of. An example

    Lets say the persons name is jimmy (Based on a guild-mate), well jimmy things guardian is the weakest class in the game. He believes that it is horrible because he can not make it achieve the ludicrous levels that other classes who are played by PvPers and players who know their builds and classes better. Well jimmy decides that the class is weak, undesirable and rather than trying to learn or take constructive criticism or even advice from other players? He comes to the forums and complains, he whines and screams that these classes (Ones who likely counter, or even ones played by more competent players) are broken and need nerfs! A-net listens. They constantly try to make it so the lazy (the overwhelming majority) part of our community can easily play any content. Its not even the casual audience because I myself am a casual who doesn't do every achievement and doesn't do everything. (Ill likely never raid, not my thing and thats OK.) Well when looking at classes and the way they work, basing the judgement on the QQ on the forums is just insane. Guardian is pretty dang good, honestly in my eyes the best heavy in the game and I have tried to tell "jimmy" that it is and how to make it shine. Jimmy tells me im dumb and he shouldn't have to run these skills, or these traits to do lets say condition or power builds and shouldn't need to think about positioning or what class he is headed up against. He just wants to face-roll and expect the game to hold his hand to victory, and when you read a lot of what is being said when nerfs are being talked about? Thats 100% the way it comes off to me. Did I use to have issues with thieves and say stealth might be a bit over-tuned? Yea. But did I say bring them more tools so stealth isn't as required and make them more like the guild wars 1 assassin (One of my mains.)? Yea. Because then they wouldn't need gimmicks and would be a strong class, not a one trick pony. Did I lack understanding of the class? Yea. So I made one, learned it and now I have no issue fighting them and enjoy the interactions with skilled thieves.

    But Im a PvP/WvW guy, Warhammer online was my first mmo outside of guild wars 1 and it spoiled me with its fun PvP. Sure it was unbalanced but my guild and family members who play are all competitive players who enjoy PvP over PvE. So my view is based on the idea that where my taste lies is in that game mode, theory crafting and learning. But MOST PLAYERS who scream dont want to learn, adapt or become better. They want it all handed to them and they want no challenge; And A-net has perpetuated and catered to them and here we are... the game is no where near as fun depending on the class you play. And that likely will not change, and will only get worse because people like jimmy exist.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    You say dmg is lower..then you state how high a rev can hit with skills on low CD...after that you state that sustain must be nerfed...when that happen it will be fun to watch people scatter once we go back to oneshot builds as @Thornwolf.9721 said.

    He nerfed sustain in Feb and we still have high burst builds....people still claim that dmg is low..when there are threads pointing how high some builds can get...soulbeast hitting for 10k burst, grenades holos...if the sustain get any lower ...lol

    You must have missed where I stated earlier that there are a few things that still need to be toned down. It wasn't included in this recent post.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    Again I will restate, I've never had an issue killing revenants in WvW before or after the patch. If assassins' herald is overperforming than find out why and fix it, but do NOT dunk on EVERY build with blanket nerfs that remove core features of a class. And NEVER remove the fun aspect of a class in favor of this warped sense of balance, MMO's can never be balanced and the more you try the more you strip out most of the fun aspects that keep people invested in their class. And then people either move to another class or leave; And it seems like more people are leaving than adapting which to me signifies its a bad change. (not this patch specifically more the mixture of them, since the feb patch.)

    I never ran the Assassins power herald, its not the playstyle I enjoy for the class. I liked running as a duelist/bruiser and being more about boxing with my opponent which just doesn't work with the way they've "changed" the class. Im angry because a class I loved I can no longer stomach playing, and Im mad because it continues to happen and my friends keep leaving the game to move on to other mmo's. One's Im not really going to move to just because they went to it, such as WoW with all of the blizzard bs I dont want to have anything to do with their products right now. But yet most of my friends are moving to WoW or Final fantasy, both of which I wont play and those that moved to ESO are going there for the superior PVE of which Im not interested in.

    Im also jaded and have been here since launch, and the game has never felt as bad as it is. Sure my current fave class whom I moved too is preforming well but Im not gonna be surprised if it gets gutted, nerfed and brought to a place of irrelevancy and the build I run which is not of the norm gets indirectly murdered. I have no faith in A-net to do anything with competitive game modes that is worth-while or lucrative and I feel that a lot of the changes made are malicious and done solely in spite of the playerbase. It also sucks but we have to admit that the MAJORITY of the player-base is horrible at the game, to such a degree that their screams for balance I feel are not indicitive of what a class truly is capable of. An example

    Lets say the persons name is jimmy (Based on a guild-mate), well jimmy things guardian is the weakest class in the game. He believes that it is horrible because he can not make it achieve the ludicrous levels that other classes who are played by PvPers and players who know their builds and classes better. Well jimmy decides that the class is weak, undesirable and rather than trying to learn or take constructive criticism or even advice from other players? He comes to the forums and complains, he whines and screams that these classes (Ones who likely counter, or even ones played by more competent players) are broken and need nerfs! A-net listens. They constantly try to make it so the lazy (the overwhelming majority) part of our community can easily play any content. Its not even the casual audience because I myself am a casual who doesn't do every achievement and doesn't do everything. (Ill likely never raid, not my thing and thats OK.) Well when looking at classes and the way they work, basing the judgement on the QQ on the forums is just insane. Guardian is pretty dang good, honestly in my eyes the best heavy in the game and I have tried to tell "jimmy" that it is and how to make it shine. Jimmy tells me im dumb and he shouldn't have to run these skills, or these traits to do lets say condition or power builds and shouldn't need to think about positioning or what class he is headed up against. He just wants to face-roll and expect the game to hold his hand to victory, and when you read a lot of what is being said when nerfs are being talked about? Thats 100% the way it comes off to me. Did I use to have issues with thieves and say stealth might be a bit over-tuned? Yea. But did I say bring them more tools so stealth isn't as required and make them more like the guild wars 1 assassin (One of my mains.)? Yea. Because then they wouldn't need gimmicks and would be a strong class, not a one trick pony. Did I lack understanding of the class? Yea. So I made one, learned it and now I have no issue fighting them and enjoy the interactions with skilled thieves.

    But Im a PvP/WvW guy, Warhammer online was my first mmo outside of guild wars 1 and it spoiled me with its fun PvP. Sure it was unbalanced but my guild and family members who play are all competitive players who enjoy PvP over PvE. So my view is based on the idea that where my taste lies is in that game mode, theory crafting and learning. But MOST PLAYERS who scream dont want to learn, adapt or become better. They want it all handed to them and they want no challenge; And A-net has perpetuated and catered to them and here we are... the game is no where near as fun depending on the class you play. And that likely will not change, and will only get worse because people like jimmy exist.

    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    Again I will restate, I've never had an issue killing revenants in WvW before or after the patch. If assassins' herald is overperforming than find out why and fix it, but do NOT dunk on EVERY build with blanket nerfs that remove core features of a class. And NEVER remove the fun aspect of a class in favor of this warped sense of balance, MMO's can never be balanced and the more you try the more you strip out most of the fun aspects that keep people invested in their class. And then people either move to another class or leave; And it seems like more people are leaving than adapting which to me signifies its a bad change. (not this patch specifically more the mixture of them, since the feb patch.)

    I never ran the Assassins power herald, its not the playstyle I enjoy for the class. I liked running as a duelist/bruiser and being more about boxing with my opponent which just doesn't work with the way they've "changed" the class. Im angry because a class I loved I can no longer stomach playing, and Im mad because it continues to happen and my friends keep leaving the game to move on to other mmo's. One's Im not really going to move to just because they went to it, such as WoW with all of the blizzard bs I dont want to have anything to do with their products right now. But yet most of my friends are moving to WoW or Final fantasy, both of which I wont play and those that moved to ESO are going there for the superior PVE of which Im not interested in.

    Im also jaded and have been here since launch, and the game has never felt as bad as it is. Sure my current fave class whom I moved too is preforming well but Im not gonna be surprised if it gets gutted, nerfed and brought to a place of irrelevancy and the build I run which is not of the norm gets indirectly murdered. I have no faith in A-net to do anything with competitive game modes that is worth-while or lucrative and I feel that a lot of the changes made are malicious and done solely in spite of the playerbase. It also sucks but we have to admit that the MAJORITY of the player-base is horrible at the game, to such a degree that their screams for balance I feel are not indicitive of what a class truly is capable of. An example

    Lets say the persons name is jimmy (Based on a guild-mate), well jimmy things guardian is the weakest class in the game. He believes that it is horrible because he can not make it achieve the ludicrous levels that other classes who are played by PvPers and players who know their builds and classes better. Well jimmy decides that the class is weak, undesirable and rather than trying to learn or take constructive criticism or even advice from other players? He comes to the forums and complains, he whines and screams that these classes (Ones who likely counter, or even ones played by more competent players) are broken and need nerfs! A-net listens. They constantly try to make it so the lazy (the overwhelming majority) part of our community can easily play any content. Its not even the casual audience because I myself am a casual who doesn't do every achievement and doesn't do everything. (Ill likely never raid, not my thing and thats OK.) Well when looking at classes and the way they work, basing the judgement on the QQ on the forums is just insane. Guardian is pretty dang good, honestly in my eyes the best heavy in the game and I have tried to tell "jimmy" that it is and how to make it shine. Jimmy tells me im dumb and he shouldn't have to run these skills, or these traits to do lets say condition or power builds and shouldn't need to think about positioning or what class he is headed up against. He just wants to face-roll and expect the game to hold his hand to victory, and when you read a lot of what is being said when nerfs are being talked about? Thats 100% the way it comes off to me. Did I use to have issues with thieves and say stealth might be a bit over-tuned? Yea. But did I say bring them more tools so stealth isn't as required and make them more like the guild wars 1 assassin (One of my mains.)? Yea. Because then they wouldn't need gimmicks and would be a strong class, not a one trick pony. Did I lack understanding of the class? Yea. So I made one, learned it and now I have no issue fighting them and enjoy the interactions with skilled thieves.

    But Im a PvP/WvW guy, Warhammer online was my first mmo outside of guild wars 1 and it spoiled me with its fun PvP. Sure it was unbalanced but my guild and family members who play are all competitive players who enjoy PvP over PvE. So my view is based on the idea that where my taste lies is in that game mode, theory crafting and learning. But MOST PLAYERS who scream dont want to learn, adapt or become better. They want it all handed to them and they want no challenge; And A-net has perpetuated and catered to them and here we are... the game is no where near as fun depending on the class you play. And that likely will not change, and will only get worse because people like jimmy exist.

    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    This is true but perfect balance is impossible, not without everything being the same. The game is not as fun as it once was for many I once knew who played all the time; A-net never gives when they take not in the abundant cases provided here. Warrior? What was given compared to what was taken? Nothing. Mirage? Firebrand? Power-rev? What was gained? Gimmicks? Shaved down mechanics, defensives and so on? If they nerf sustain then we will be RIGHT back to where we were pre-feb patch, because the damage is high enough where I can say I about delete people now? If you run glass you deserve to die if your reflexes are slow, you gave up your sustain for damage. Meta raid builds trying to be ran in WvW? Nah. It shouldn't be balanced like that but that is how it feels like they are balancing this game, based upon this glass burst kitten that people want to be the most prevalent and best way of play. We will head toward homogenization and eventually... everything will just be the same thing with different colors.

  • @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:

    @Zee.1294 said:

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Even when a balance patch comes out you all cry. If nothing anet does can satisfy you then devote your energy to a different game.

    Yo...Are you calling this BS pach Satisfaction ?.....Guess what.... fanboy ... i all ready em on different game 3 years ago.....have fun playing your Satisfactory game..
    If you having fun waiting 3 monts for this kiten end then prize ANet how good job they are doing....well then.. i guess you are perfect match....Chao!

    And yet here you are. On the forums complaining about the game. At least im realistic with my expectations from anet.

    There are quite a few people who dont play the game anymore but check reddit and the forums to see if there is reason to return? So you're analysis is false. I did it durring my extended break; As for expectations? Well we shouldn't have any. Really we shouldn't, every other game holds better cadence for balance changes even when they DONT care than A-net and often times they do it BETTER while trying to break their game. A-net is lazy, nothing to see End of dragons will be PoF 2.0 and it will likely be bloated in price because I dont expect anything of them outside of anti-consumer moves. Like build templates.

    As for class anything? I expect them to do the thing with the least amount of work, energy or imagination required. They've been doing that for a hot minute now and it seems to have only gotten worse; Note NOT EVERYONE complains unjustly and for you to deny the fact that you're outnumbered by people who are clearly upset THEIR class is getting gutted I assume then that your build/class is fine and likewise continues to be fine? Its only perfectly fair until it happens to you right.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Even when a balance patch comes out you all cry. If nothing anet does can satisfy you then devote your energy to a different game.

    Shocking aura has counterplay. Projectile denile is what needs a bit of a nerf.

    The engi changes are a good. Decrap scrapper seems lazy but i think cmc wanted to tone down the cc spam and barrier uptime.

    These changes are minor but do what everyone asked for. And you still complain. Mind boggling.

    Alright bet, but when this game is dying (Im assuming the steam jump is to get new players in, because they dont have enough to justify the cost of development.) and there is no one to play the game then what? I mean PvP is dying, WvW seems to be dying, raids are not being developed and for all we know strikes aren't either as its been a bit since we got a new one and its in its infant stages? Fractals only recently got any attention and the living world cadence seems to of slowed down, To me It seems A-net is pushing everything they have onto end of dragons. And I hope sincerely it will be good because I dont want to see this game fall, but I firmly believe that the expansion will make or break this game and A-net themselves. Clearly we can expect nothing of substance until then, so come back for living world and dont play until the new release and do the acheivo's that matter to you. If NONE of it matters to you then yes find a new game.

    But telling people to leave the game because they are dissatisfied? I likely buy far more gems than you do on the regular when im happy and having fun, Im sure many here buy tons of gems when the game is solid for them. I have a guildie who has a dedicated allowance for this game that he buys gems every month, to support the game and he has not done so since the feb patch. What you're essentially saying is we the consumer do not matter in terms of the well-being of the product, but the product requires us to continue its existence and we make up its ecosystem. Without us it falls apart.

    So be careful what you wish for, because we dont want a BFA level exodus on our hands as I dont think guild wars 2 could handle THAT LEVEL of malice and malignance aimed at it. You dont want to taint the well you obtain your resources from, and if A-net isn't careful they very well might do so. the lay-offs, build templates, blanket nerfs, the lack of communication despite promises, WvW alliances, quicker cadence, Expansion level content, an expansion in general. All promises but nothing is bearing fruit right now and so those who are holding them to task over their promises are entitled to their opinion and the ability to express their disdain of what their reailty offers.

    Personally I re-rolled my ranger, Im currently catching him up and Im enjoying him. Sure I've been salty about revenant but its clear they dont want me playing the class I loved so much so that they changed it to something it wasn't. They then did it to warrior when I Went back to my first character, because of how revenant was going and now Im here on my ranger and Im enjoying myself again. Granted it has problems and Im also assuming they are about to nerf the ever loving hecc out of it; And if and when that happens likely Ill sluff off until the expansion only to return durring living world releases to see whats happening up until then. When that happens they will loose ANY and ALL money Id be willing to give and at the stage the expansion comes out, and the investment on my part is down? Well I might just not buy it! SHOCKING. Now I am one person BUT imagine if all the people who are unhappy with the current balance and communication just up and quit? To me and hearing it in map chat, team chat, PvE maps, city maps, discords and in my guild? Im assuming here (could be wrong, there might be an overwhelming majority who are happy for the game to continue this path.) thats a LOT of money walking out the door to potentially never return.

    And the more people that leave, the fewer players who ARE happy will stay because the world will begin to feel empty. When that happens even if you're 100% fine with the game typically you'll try to go where the people go. Because part of MMO's having appeal is other people being around, especially now given current world situations and thus if an exodus happens because everyone who is unhappy just "Don't like it leaves" then it will have a ripple effect throughout the entire game.

    So sure, fine. Good. Say it now. But when the game begins to go the way of wild star? Dont be upset. Know its what you wanted. You asked and told people to do it. Because A-net is under the thumb firmly of NCsoft now.... and big pappa wants its money.

    Pvp has been dying for the last 5 years. I think pvp will be fine.

    I play ele. Historically ive been an optimist when ele has been nerfed.

    And yeah, people should move on to another game if they are not happy. Why stay in an abusive relationship hoping anet will change? These forums are filled with only complaints about the state of pvp. Maybe the community should look into why there is little support for new players. Or how their toxicity drives new people away from pvp.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    If you think anything has changed, wait until CmC dunks on the sustain and defensives of which he says needs a hard nerf. Then we will be right back to the one shot shenanigan's with just lower numbers; Power Rev is trash and will continue to be trash. Condi Rev is a one trick pony which is easily countered by range and CC.

    A lot has changed. Damage is lower overall, and there are still a few things that have sustain levels that are too high, whether that's from just pure defense, defensive boons, condition clear, healing values, etc. So bringing those down to acceptable levels is ok as well.
    Also, assassin herald is definitely not trash, and hasn't been trash for a while. Just because it can't one shot a zerg doesn't mean it's trash. It still hits really high 7k numbers on a skill that's only a 15s cooldown, a skill that has an evade frame that hits almost 10k, if not 10k or more, on a single target, and amazing cleave potential.
    Condi rev only falls behind because there are still a few overwhelming things that's pushing it out currently. Nerfing those overwhelming things will inadvertantly "buff" it to bring it back up.
    Condition in general is still a bit out of hand, mainly because of the change to burn and poison being able to go past 1 stack back before HoT (specialization patch), all while other skills are still crapping out multiple stacks of bleeds and torment as well as multiple stacks of burn.
    One thing I will say it, anet took way too long to make the changes that was made in this recent patch. They were all simple changes and could have been made much much sooner, but it is what it is. it's anet, after all.

    Again I will restate, I've never had an issue killing revenants in WvW before or after the patch. If assassins' herald is overperforming than find out why and fix it, but do NOT dunk on EVERY build with blanket nerfs that remove core features of a class. And NEVER remove the fun aspect of a class in favor of this warped sense of balance, MMO's can never be balanced and the more you try the more you strip out most of the fun aspects that keep people invested in their class. And then people either move to another class or leave; And it seems like more people are leaving than adapting which to me signifies its a bad change. (not this patch specifically more the mixture of them, since the feb patch.)

    I never ran the Assassins power herald, its not the playstyle I enjoy for the class. I liked running as a duelist/bruiser and being more about boxing with my opponent which just doesn't work with the way they've "changed" the class. Im angry because a class I loved I can no longer stomach playing, and Im mad because it continues to happen and my friends keep leaving the game to move on to other mmo's. One's Im not really going to move to just because they went to it, such as WoW with all of the blizzard bs I dont want to have anything to do with their products right now. But yet most of my friends are moving to WoW or Final fantasy, both of which I wont play and those that moved to ESO are going there for the superior PVE of which Im not interested in.

    Im also jaded and have been here since launch, and the game has never felt as bad as it is. Sure my current fave class whom I moved too is preforming well but Im not gonna be surprised if it gets gutted, nerfed and brought to a place of irrelevancy and the build I run which is not of the norm gets indirectly murdered. I have no faith in A-net to do anything with competitive game modes that is worth-while or lucrative and I feel that a lot of the changes made are malicious and done solely in spite of the playerbase. It also sucks but we have to admit that the MAJORITY of the player-base is horrible at the game, to such a degree that their screams for balance I feel are not indicitive of what a class truly is capable of. An example

    Lets say the persons name is jimmy (Based on a guild-mate), well jimmy things guardian is the weakest class in the game. He believes that it is horrible because he can not make it achieve the ludicrous levels that other classes who are played by PvPers and players who know their builds and classes better. Well jimmy decides that the class is weak, undesirable and rather than trying to learn or take constructive criticism or even advice from other players? He comes to the forums and complains, he whines and screams that these classes (Ones who likely counter, or even ones played by more competent players) are broken and need nerfs! A-net listens. They constantly try to make it so the lazy (the overwhelming majority) part of our community can easily play any content. Its not even the casual audience because I myself am a casual who doesn't do every achievement and doesn't do everything. (Ill likely never raid, not my thing and thats OK.) Well when looking at classes and the way they work, basing the judgement on the QQ on the forums is just insane. Guardian is pretty dang good, honestly in my eyes the best heavy in the game and I have tried to tell "jimmy" that it is and how to make it shine. Jimmy tells me im dumb and he shouldn't have to run these skills, or these traits to do lets say condition or power builds and shouldn't need to think about positioning or what class he is headed up against. He just wants to face-roll and expect the game to hold his hand to victory, and when you read a lot of what is being said when nerfs are being talked about? Thats 100% the way it comes off to me. Did I use to have issues with thieves and say stealth might be a bit over-tuned? Yea. But did I say bring them more tools so stealth isn't as required and make them more like the guild wars 1 assassin (One of my mains.)? Yea. Because then they wouldn't need gimmicks and would be a strong class, not a one trick pony. Did I lack understanding of the class? Yea. So I made one, learned it and now I have no issue fighting them and enjoy the interactions with skilled thieves.

    But Im a PvP/WvW guy, Warhammer online was my first mmo outside of guild wars 1 and it spoiled me with its fun PvP. Sure it was unbalanced but my guild and family members who play are all competitive players who enjoy PvP over PvE. So my view is based on the idea that where my taste lies is in that game mode, theory crafting and learning. But MOST PLAYERS who scream dont want to learn, adapt or become better. They want it all handed to them and they want no challenge; And A-net has perpetuated and catered to them and here we are... the game is no where near as fun depending on the class you play. And that likely will not change, and will only get worse because people like jimmy exist.

    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    This is true but perfect balance is impossible, not without everything being the same. The game is not as fun as it once was for many I once knew who played all the time; A-net never gives when they take not in the abundant cases provided here. Warrior? What was given compared to what was taken? Nothing. Mirage? Firebrand? Power-rev? What was gained? Gimmicks? Shaved down mechanics, defensives and so on? If they nerf sustain then we will be RIGHT back to where we were pre-feb patch, because the damage is high enough where I can say I about delete people now? If you run glass you deserve to die if your reflexes are slow, you gave up your sustain for damage. Meta raid builds trying to be ran in WvW? Nah. It shouldn't be balanced like that but that is how it feels like they are balancing this game, based upon this glass burst kitten that people want to be the most prevalent and best way of play. We will head toward homogenization and eventually... everything will just be the same thing with different colors.

    Warrior was a case where nothing was needed to be given, because warrior already had it all. pre-patch february, warrior has crazy sustain even without taking the defensive trait line thanks to might makes right and forceful greatsword combination alone. add sigils and utilities that granted might and they were healing for defense line numbers (over 100 per might gained). They already could do over 10k with a single burst skill on a 6s cd, and their adrenaline generation was higher as well because they always took, and still take, discipline. So their healing signet was healing passively for 300+ per second, then on top of that gaining might kept giving them over 100, defense was obsolete because of that big synergy within a damage-focused trait line which was very horrible for balance. What did warriors gain after february patch? no buffs, per say, at least not apparent. now lets look at what they neither received nor lost: the defense line itself. Their main passive heal was not touched. The endure pain GM took a hit, but in terms of passive healing sustain as well as their physical defense sustain, defense didn't get a big hit, which is fine considering that trait line is supposed to be about enduring of damage.
    mirage, they are another example of they had it all. high burst condition pressure, they could attack while dodging, effectively making them invulnerable while they dished out their high condition pressure. the one thing anet missed on that mark was their vigor. I think their vigor uptime should have been increased as a result of losing their dodge, but other than that, they needed the nerfs. even now, mirages can still output some pretty big condition bursts, they just need to be very careful and selective of their engagements.
    Firebrand was yet another example. High sustain through direct healing and healing over time, defensive boons and blocks, as well as being able to output a lot of burning and cripple, ensuring you are at least staying in range of their circles. then they also had a nice pull that also applied like 3 or 4 stacks of burning before getting nerfed. they didn't need anything added.
    power rev was another example before february patch. they were so scary, they even pushed out thieves in terms of most effective assassin because of how much raw damage output, both burst and sustained, they possessed. they were so darn strong, that literally scrapper before they were "reworked" into the super defensive monstrosity before being nerfed for the first time could never survive a plus from a power rev, ever. On top of their damage, they also had access to a very stable source of defensive options, like evades, blocks, on low energy costs/cooldowns. They needed nothing to be given to them, because as we can see even now, they're still pumping out loads of damage on lower cd skills, one of which has an evade frame during the animation.
    All of the shaves were necessary, and with some, are still necessary taking into account the things i've listed before and more. Even with defenses lowered, we still won't be close to the one shot meta that we seen before february, and that's a good thing.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    I give it a "B" on the "A~F" scale

    -WvW? A lot of these issues also exist in WvW.

    Bad:
    -Nerfing everything on engineer EXCEPT explosive entrance is not the way to go. EE is a badly designed cheese-trait, and once again Anet is making the self-destructive mistake of nerfing around the cheese instead of actually addressing problems at their core. When EE finally does get a proper nerf, engie will likely come out drastically underpowered.
    -Necromancer got a free pass, and will likely now be overpowered.
    -A lot of what makes support Tempest strong, mainly the shock-aura spam, got a free pass. Since damage was nerfed this patch, and Tempest was already an S-tier pick, Tempest will now be broken.

    No Please, we dont have issues in WvW at all, ok stealth, but thats not the point. We have no decap scrappers or renegades there and almost no holos. Guard is also totally fine in WvW, there is a AoE damage build, but its not used often because people beg you to change to Healbrand.

    please keep that whiny clown fiesta that you guys do in these forums out of WvW, better keep yourself out of WvW too.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

    Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

    Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

    This forum is degeneracy.

    So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

    Guard:
    PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted and useful.
    PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.
    WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

    Thief:
    PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass a skilled PW DH/Condi FB player)
    PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA, Condi.
    WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet