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Thoughts on today's "balance"?

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  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

    Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

    Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

    This forum is degeneracy.

    So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

    Guard:
    PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.
    PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.
    WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

    Thief:
    PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)
    PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.
    WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

    This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

    Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

    At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

    I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

    But sure. K.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

    Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

    Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

    This forum is degeneracy.

    So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

    Guard:
    PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.
    PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.
    WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

    Thief:
    PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)
    PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.
    WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

    This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

    Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

    At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

    I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

    But sure. K.

    How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

    You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    And what you're missing is that thief isn't OP at all. Sb5 has existed on thief for 7 years with no problems

    Thief was almost always meta and it always ran shortbow

    Plus, Chaotic Interruption was fine for 5 years. Why did it get removed then? Worst argument ever.

    Thief was almost always meta just cuz of #5 SB and how the PvP strategy works. Remove cap system and it's useless. Imagine PvP being a 3v3 deathmatch always for example. So no Thief was never OP as a profession. Maybe only pre-HoT days it had a chance as a profession to actually 1v1 and be a fighter. And SB#5 shouldnt be seen as some kind of "super uber OP skill" that gives reason for nerfing a thief.

    Well atleast i can agree on Chaotic Interruption. It shouldn't have been removed either. 2nd dodge shouldnt have either. That's what im trying to point out. Enough with the nerfs! Time for buffs. For example i dont main mesmer but i felt so bad for mesmer players when they were gutted. It's just sad to see how anet listens to community and destroys classes. SB #5 isn't OP at all either. It was okey for 4-5 years and suddenly people decided that it's time for a nerf? Wut the hell is this "I don't know how to deal with it so please NERF!" mentality? I'm sure anet just listens to inexperienced players who are new to the game who can't figure out how to deal against some professions and constantly ask for nerfs. Or players who are veterans but are still having hatred towards any class that isn't their main or still can't figure out a way to outplay them.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    People who think that Thief is weak and needs buffs, and that FB is still "king of the castle".

    This forum is degeneracy.

    So you're saying Thief is in a better place now then FB? Let's have a look.

    Guard:
    PVE: PW DPS DH/Guard, Condi DPS FB, qHFB, qCFB and even PWqFB in some cases. A must for raids/fracts. Pick your poison u'll always be wanted.
    PVP: Condi FB, Healer FB, Guard core condi/pw/healer variations+PW DH.
    WvW: obvious. Without FB WvW zerg is nothing.

    Thief:
    PVE: PW DPS (benchmarks still in reality won't surpass PW/Condi FB)
    PVP: The only meta build there ever was. With slight variatons of either SA or DA.
    WvW: kicked from squad cuz useless.

    This is the PvP forum, not talking about WvW or PvE.

    Also, not talking about Core or DH, talking about FB.

    At best, FB is considered B tier, and is not considered a good choice for a proper team. Whereas, Thief is considered MANDATORY.

    I knew it's gonna be your argument. Welp if we're talkin "class balance" then let's have in mind all viable builds and how they stack up against each other in ALL game modes.

    But sure. K.

    How does that in any way disprove what I just said? PvE builds are totally irrelevant to PvP balance. And DH is totally irrelevant to discussion about FB.

    You're actually going to justify your statement on the PvP forum that "FB is still king of the castle" by referencing DH builds in PvE. You have a serious lack of reasoning skills.

    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Yikes.

    My general statement was that some professions are over-nerfed while others remain over-tuned. And instead of continuously nerfing everything and killing fun maybe anet should buff up or find other ways to balance out professions. Cuz it lead us to this kind of state in the game. And yes im lookin at professions as a complete package. Not only PvP.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 Your argument has just completely folded. Backtracking and brining up DH/PVE to prove that FB is meta in pvp? What? Would be great if you could play a couple of games as a FB in sPvP now, and then share your experience with us here.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    @Dave.6819 Your argument has just completely folded. Backtracking and brining up DH/PVE to prove that FB is meta in pvp? What? Would be great if you could play a couple of games as a FB in sPvP now, and then share your experience with us here.

    Well i do talk about PvP but i always look at the whole spectrum too. Be it PvP or PvE or WvW. I just took FB as an example of a class that's doing great in PvP and even better in other modes for the longest time. I don't see any problem with that. If you're so unhappy about such example take Holo then. A class that's also doing great in PvP. So dont twist my words my idea was that maybe instead of constantly nerfing classes anet should focus on buffing other classes and stop dumbing down the game to the point where its not fun anymore. That's a very simple statement. I don't get it what's so hard to understand? That some classes are overperforming and some classes are not? You don't agree with that? All classes seem equal to you and balance is perfect?

    Oh and yes i do play in PvP with FB. I'd say it's doing much better then Thief is. Especially now in 3v3 there's no denying that.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    "AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played as1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

    But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i am saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @wevh.2903 said:
    "AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

    But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

    I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

    I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

    Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

    Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway... chuckles like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    As i've said. It's always like that and it's always a dead end to get into these discussions. People always distort your words and completely forget the main idea someone is trying to convey. Completely ignoring the main issue and trying to "catch you on your own words" that are irrelevant to that issue. There will always be biased people towards some professions and looking over the years thief was one of those who had most of hate. And people will still ask for nerfs no matter how bad it gets. I think it's best to just stop completely with the feedback and let Anet handle their game. But handling it maybe in another way.. cuz nerfs are just killing the fun and that's that.

    Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600

    So who's the Thief now?
    2019.04.23 -Anet

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    "AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

    But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

    I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

    I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

    Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

    Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway... chuckles like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:
    "AOE is fine if the game has healers" xdd , symbol guardian is a sidenoder not a build u play at mid , symbols were not op because they hit multiple people . Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius. Guess u dont know what sidenoder means cuz u have cero clue about how pvp works.

    But now u will say something like mememe u dont know what i smam saying im refering to a more godlike knowledge u wont undertand ;(

    I was talking about AOE not specifically about symbol gaurdian in spvp...but okay keep on trying to distort my responses to your agenda....

    I could dismantle this entire comment about how nonsense it is, but i don't want to waste my time, so i'll just say this :

    Symbol was a tanky build played at 1v1er that was good because it slowly killed you by spaming aoe u couldnt dodge

    Symbols have been the DEFINING feature of the guardian class since the dawn of the game. So now you want to change something, that's been just fine in the game since forever, because you can't dodge something that doesn't do damage anyway... chuckles like i said earlier, if you had healers in this game mode, AOE would have at least 1 proper counter...That's why symbol guardian was never that big of a deal before the removal of healers pre-feb patch.

    The one here trying to distort other posts are you.
    "spaming aoe u couldnt dodge because its radius were the same as the point with the extra radius " . You didnt quote "Due to extra radius " . At first this trait was added at 2015 not 2012. Anet deleted the trait wich gived symbols an extra radius . I didnt say nothing about how symbols are since 2012 ^^ .

    You quoted my comment complaining about aoe as if someone was complaining about aoe at a team fight . You keep saying something about "healers" cuz like i said u have cero clue about a sidenoder is.

    Guardian symbol was a 1v1 build , u habe no support or healer or whatever at a 1v1 , build was strong after feb because sidenoder meta switched to tank due to damage nerf. After february there is not enough damage to kill a bunk core guard running mender or sage at a 1v1 while core guard kills you spaming symbols on node and outsustaing you You can only match that build with another tank one but i bet u dont eveb know what build is it cuz its not common at gold3. Again those symbols were buffed by trait due to be as big as the point is . Normal symbol radius arent bigger than a point. So build basically forced u to eat all symbol ticks but now anet nerfed the trait so u can simply walk out of symbol and still be on node. Buid isnt a problem at 2v2 or 3v3 cuz u dont need to tank the node at a 1v1 , while at a 1v1 u need to stay on node cuz if u lose the node against a tank u lose the match.

    Again symbol damage or core symbol radius wasnt a problem . U literally dismantle urself saying i complaing about something that was there since the start of the game. Also ofc symbol does ridiculius dmg at a mid team fight but i am talking about standing on point .Also mention before feb patch build was bad cuz u couldnt face tank all dmg with a mender amulet .

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    Nobody is distorting his words, he's trying to backtrack on what he said when called out on his fallacious argument by bringing up builds used in other game modes to claim FB was good in sPvP.

    This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode. Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

  • @Dave.6819 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    As i've said. It's always like that and it's always a dead end to get into these discussions. People always distort your words and completely forget the main idea someone is trying to convey. Completely ignoring the main issue and trying to "catch you on your own words" that are irrelevant to that issue. There will always be biased people towards some professions and looking over the years thief was one of those who had most of hate. And people will still ask for nerfs no matter how bad it gets. I think it's best to just stop completely with the feedback and let Anet handle their game. But handling it maybe in another way.. cuz nerfs are just killing the fun and that's that.

    Thief isn't bad in PvP. You claimed FB was good in PvP and thief was bad by citing PvE builds and you got called put on it. Just take the L and move on, quit trying to salvage it. FB is bad in PvP, thief isn't.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Forums omegalul

  • dronte.3416dronte.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:

    @dronte.3416 said:
    I mean you can't argue that the nerfs were very much spot on. 80% of the forums were complaining about ...

    Sorry buddy, I stopped reading your post after this. The game should never be "balanced" based on complaints from vocal minority on the forums. Period.

    While in general I agree with you, you should read on then because what you call vocal minority opinion was very closely matched by all the top streamers as well this time. There were times times when these two were super far from each other (looking at you mirage), but I think we can all agree that this time core symbol guard, holo and renegade were all overperforming on ALL levels.

    The nerfs are good and were much needed Specifically, which nerf do you disagree with?

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle >because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode.
    Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

    You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

    Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

    Edit: Also, DP daredevil still sucs anyway...unless you are edison or sindrener, your gonna get farmed using this build and you'll only be useful as a decap/evade bot.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    This is a sPvP forum, nobody cares about other game modes and in sPvP, FB is terrible while thief is mandatory. So no, we cannot agree FB is king of the castle >because it's not good in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in any other game mode.
    Thief is meta in sPvP, regardless of how good it is in other game modes. 3v3 might change thiefs position in a tier list for sPvP, but FB is still trash and not viable.

    You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

    Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

    Edit: Also, DP daredevil still sucs anyway...unless you are edison or sindrener, your gonna get farmed using this build and you'll only be useful as a decap/evade bot.

    We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    This looks a lot like PvP talk to me, and that he's putting FB in the same league as Holo and that's so ridiculous it's unreal. PvE and WvW builds were brought up because FB is viable there and he was called on it being trash in pvp vs thief being meta. There are no viable FB builds in PvP, you're gimping your team if you bring one. You only do the same with thief if you have more than one or are bad at the class.

    Edit: linking on mobile is a pain but the last paragraph is his quote, not yours.

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    Dave said : We all can agree that FB was and probably still is the king of the castle right? Well let's do the opposite. Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind? I'm sure FB mains wouldnt be happy if we just nerf em to the ground. It's not a healthy solution for overall PvP population. But we all know what will happen. Eventually FB/Holo nerf will happen and those professions will be even less enjoyable to play.

    This looks a lot like PvP talk to me, and that he's putting FB in the same league as Holo and that's so ridiculous it's unreal.

    He said FB "was and probably still is..." because FB/Scourge was THE meta for almost 2 years prior to February. Is it really so hard to keep up with the historical picture of the game? Or did people forget what was going on pre-cmc-patch?

    Also he's not comparing FB and Holo either...he's pointing out how we shouldn't be nerfing classes because the nerfs are making it less enjoyable to play by giving each class less builds to play with. He doesn't want to see that happen to both FB and Holo mains. That's why he said "Instead of asking a nerf of FB why not buff other classes that are left behind?..".

    Reading comprehension is hard isn't it? What other sentences do i have to walk people through?

  • Zeesh.7286Zeesh.7286 Member ✭✭✭

    You are clearly missing the argument. He is not talking about about whether thief is viable in spvp, he was talking about the NUMBER OF VIABLE BUILDS THIEF HAS IN ALL GAME MODES IN COMPARISON TO GUARDIAN ACROSS ALL GAME MODES.

    he was very clearly talking about FB vs thief. He literally used the words FB. and the discussion is on pvp not wvw and pve. these are literally the PVP forums. the thread is literally on a PvP balance patch. What even??

    Sorry but not everyone wants to play DP Daredevil to be relevant on thief.

    what???? You don't want to play DP daredevil? I don't want to play support tempest. I can play a fresh air tempest if I want. Is it viable? maybe, maybe not (depends of team comp honestly). You can also play deadeye and core condi thief. Like what even is the point of this sentence at the moment tbh? DP is a meta thief build. Auramancer is the meta tempest build. Meta builds will always be more relevant than other options. Meta builds are "Meta" because of the over arching game strategies/modes and other classes skill sets. Meta builds aren't just meta because of the class in itself. they are meta because these builds synergize with the game mode and a variety of options presented by other enemy classes. Asking for more thief builds to be meta at this point is asking for a rework of more than just the thief. Tempest support became meta because of overall stability nerfs and nerfs to % revive traits. It didn't become meta because anet reviewed tempest on its own and reworked the class.

  • mixxed.5862mixxed.5862 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics and numbers so obviously overtuned you'd think they must have realized it by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes and some more rebalancing.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

  • @wevh.2903 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    throw mine + battering ram nerf is lol. baddies call for bad nerfs, and anet gives it to em. big reason why pvp is dead.

    Yes like not every top player have asked for deccap scrapper nerf or a simple delete but you yes just dodge mines

    are these the same ppl complaining about mirage gutting, guard longbow destruction, war noodlification, rev staff meme, etc. ad infinitum? the ceaseless march of the undead hordes continues.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

  • mes.4607mes.4607 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    Can't wait

    How the heck do I get 5 stars?
  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

    1. Tera went into maintenance mode. And Tera 2 is in development.
    2. I was comparing WvW to BDO explicitly because they do it better. Their WvW scene seems way healthier
    3. ESO's PvP seems to be booming, the game seems to be doing better than this one? Do I play it? No. I don't like the art style.
    4. Ashes will be fine considering they have tons of rich whales backing it; And who will pay for it. Its one of the most anticipated up-coming MMO's on the market and honestly the only one that I continuously hear about. Anything else is a one off and then never mentioned again~

    Why am I comparing other MMO's to this one? Because this one despite its free nature is not as popular which is a given considering its presence on both twitch and youtube, if you want to get into it final fantasy (bleh) and ESO (meh) seem more popular with more of a playerbase and a unity in that player base. Like I Said Guild wars 2 to me seems to be on a downward trend, people are leaving and yet these other games aren't have a huge exodus? Their modes seem lively and people are producing content for it (Well not tera because of obvious reasons). Note I love guild wars, I dont really care about any of these other games but as an outsider looking in and from what I see the community is more engaged and numerous on all game modes than they are here. PvP has shrunk, continues to shrink and WvW is only good when the band-wagon goes into your favor. Honestly The game doesn't feel very alive and the "feel" is more important than the numeric value because when it FEELS like no ones there, you leave. Simple as that. I doubt we have 11 million active accounts in the game in general and I HIGHLY DOUBT pvp is in the higher echelon of the community population, I think the only two modes with good pop numbers is open world PvE and WvW because there is little no bar of entry (Even though the bars are completely fabricated).

    Other games seem to be doing better, radio silence also doesn't really bring confidence. While I think the other games like you said are hot garbo, I feel like guild wars 2 isn't doing enough and doing fast enough cadence on balance changes/reworks. Im assuming End of dragons will come with new specs and reworks to old specs and the classes, I think and hope it will basically remake/revitalize/fix the game. But my faith is shaken and Im not sure Im able to believe it until they prove it to me; Note I never said guild wars 2 was a bad game based on personal opinion. I said as a competitive player Id never touch it if I were introduced to it today, but im already invested so I stick with it and Im basing my view on how I look at games. And to me right now the game is not as fun as it was~ Its subjective but no more or less real than the reality you see, and the issue Is when I see so many people leaving it just doesn't make me believe things will get better.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

    1. Tera went into maintenance mode. And Tera 2 is in development.

    TERAs PvP hasnt been healthy even back when it was still regularly updated. It was always tiny. TERA 2 is not in development. They pretty explicitely shot that down earlier this year.

    1. I was comparing WvW to BDO explicitly because they do it better. Their WvW scene seems way healthier

    They dont, its actually got a lot more issues, and its even less healthy than WvW.

    1. ESO's PvP seems to be booming, the game seems to be doing better than this one? Do I play it? No. I don't like the art style.

    Yeah I cant say that they seem to agree. Lots of stories of matchmaking not even filling up the teams, leading to situations like 4v2. Booming doesnt appear to be the right word.

    1. Ashes will be fine considering they have tons of rich whales backing it; And who will pay for it. Its one of the most anticipated up-coming MMO's on the market and honestly the only one that I continuously hear about. Anything else is a one off and then never mentioned again~

    So did Wildstar. Not just that, Wildstar had a ton of hype behind it, thanks to its presentation, developers, and so on. On the other hand, Ashes has yet to shake the Scam stigma it got after the whole battle royale thing. It was anticipated once upon a time, before we know much about the game. Now? Most people dont really seem to care. It looks terrible, sub-based model means a lot of people straight up wont even try it, and its development cycle hasnt inspired confidence. It will go F2P quickly and die most likely, just as Wildstar did.

    Why am I comparing other MMO's to this one? Because this one despite its free nature is not as popular which is a given considering its presence on both twitch and youtube, if you want to get into it final fantasy (bleh) and ESO (meh) seem more popular with more of a playerbase and a unity in that player base. Like I Said Guild wars 2 to me seems to be on a downward trend, people are leaving and yet these other games aren't have a huge exodus? Their modes seem lively and people are producing content for it (Well not tera because of obvious reasons). Note I love guild wars, I dont really care about any of these other games but as an outsider looking in and from what I see the community is more engaged and numerous on all game modes than they are here. PvP has shrunk, continues to shrink and WvW is only good when the band-wagon goes into your favor. Honestly The game doesn't feel very alive and the "feel" is more important than the numeric value because when it FEELS like no ones there, you leave. Simple as that. I doubt we have 11 million active accounts in the game in general and I HIGHLY DOUBT pvp is in the higher echelon of the community population, I think the only two modes with good pop numbers is open world PvE and WvW because there is little no bar of entry (Even though the bars are completely fabricated).

    Of course FFXIV is more popular. Its a bloody final fantasy game. Name recognition matters a lot. Likewise with ESO, though in its case we dont even know if it really is bigger. They dont tend to share numbers. Oh and ESO already had its Exodus. Its just rebounding now. Somewhat. Its PvP is however underpopulated (moreso than GW2 if the stories are to be believed) and continously shrinking. Esodil seems to be at the level of lowest tier WvW at the highest population, and worse below that.

    Other games seem to be doing better, radio silence also doesn't really bring confidence. While I think the other games like you said are hot garbo, I feel like guild wars 2 isn't doing enough and doing fast enough cadence on balance changes/reworks. Im assuming End of dragons will come with new specs and reworks to old specs and the classes, I think and hope it will basically remake/revitalize/fix the game. But my faith is shaken and Im not sure Im able to believe it until they prove it to me; Note I never said guild wars 2 was a bad game based on personal opinion. I said as a competitive player Id never touch it if I were introduced to it today, but im already invested so I stick with it and Im basing my view on how I look at games. And to me right now the game is not as fun as it was~ Its subjective but no more or less real than the reality you see, and the issue Is when I see so many people leaving it just doesn't make me believe things will get better.

    Lets be real here, if youre a competitive player, youre not likely to play an MMO for that. As far as MMOs are concerned though? GW2 still has the best PvP. ESOs is doing worse, FFXIVs PvP exists purely as a technicality, BDOs is p2w incarnate and thats about it. Granted, yes, GW2s PvP has issue, slow balance patches, the absolute catastrophe that was the february patch.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    Yeah this is false. WoW is popular because...
    1) it's been around for years. Much longer than gw2. It has a solid playerbase that's been around since its inception.
    2) Believe it or not, WoW balance is actually much better than gw2's current balance because it has....wait you hear that? give and take. Repeat it.
    3) WoW's marketing team is spot on with their product showcase, aka marketing. Great marketing goes a long way. Anet's marketing likes to linger for a long time on a specific thing (remember griffons? lel) and hammer that onto people when they could linger on something more worthwhile like its unrivaled combat mechanics that no other game could even dream of accomplishing because the original devs who worked on it were plain and simple freaking BOSSES (kudos to you guys for constructing this combat system, seriously it's amazing).

    So, basically what you're telling me is that if I was the head of the balance team, introduce healthy balance to the game to help alleviate one of the 3 things that's holding gw2 back from what it could be, and what it used to be, pvp/wvw would be dead? At the same time, I've not seen you come back with what you would do to "fix" the game according to your standards. But I may have a slight clue (ok I lied, it's a big clue it's so obvious). You'd basically undo all the changes from the February patch because you think, keyword THINK, powercreep is "fun". If you were the head of balance, I'd give the game 2-3 months before next expac was cancelled, and the servers shut down for good, both pvp/wvw and pve. We'd have no more game.
    I'll also squash the statement of "so many classes balance is impossible/unfathomable" yet league of legends has what, close to 100 champions and they seem to be doing quite well with balance. Their playerbase and being able to stay in the competitive scene testifies to this.

    Most of the top players who've played in ESL, Worlds, big regional tournaments, etc....they came back when feb patch hit. You know what ultimately drove a lot of them off again recently? The broken promise of more frequent smaller balance passes to address factors that were missed in february and still may be running rampant right now that makes the game unfun because they're way overperforming. Lets take this specific patch as an example. Hot-fix level patch that could have easily been done after a couple weeks of discovering the issues that were causing this imbalance took....3 or 4 months? to implement. That's a big yikes.

    However, from what I've just read recently, they're going through another big layoff most likely thanks to Covid and everyone so scared to death for no reason over it that states decided to shut down for so long when it was not necessary. That, unfortunately, affects business so I can see why the hot-fix patch took some time to get here so I won't give them kitten for that. Btw folks at anet, I'm truly sorry for the things you guys are going through currently, please try and stay strong.

    BDO does not boast a healthy pvp scene. While it's an interesting one, if you max out your gear, you can literally one shot people. Not "one shot" but literally 1 skill depletes the entirety of the enemy's health bar. Do I still like BDO? Yes. But it's definitely not balanced.
    ESO, we could argue about that one there because I tend to think ESO is not bad in terms of balance. The combat looks and plays pretty cool, very similar to gw2 (but not quite there). IMO gw2 is much smoother and refined, feels more "real time".
    Tera online, lel. Though fun, yeah that's a meme. This is coming from someone who really enjoyed the gunner when it first came out.

    I'm also pretty hyped for ashes of creation and new world, they look really cool. I've not played those yet so i can't make a great comparison. Anxious to try both out.

    All in all, yeah gw2's balance is not where it should be but I do feel it's slowly working toward it. what killed balance was during the specialization patch before HoT release, one change which
    1) allowed burn and poison to break one cap, while also keeping their very high damage potential per tick (burn) and great utility by stunting healing power while it's applied (poison). This change did NOT need to happen, as the highest condition damage from burn and the great utility bonus from enemies being poisoned were enough to keep it as is and still function very well for condition style builds.
    2) overloading too many effects into a single trait after the specialization introduction, which resulted in builds being able to build as a "jack of all trades" build and still outperform builds that solely focused on one role, and then still performed something specific much better than the builds that focused on one major role (more give, little take, see how important give and take is?)
    3) Single trait choices granting very big benefit bonuses after introducing the specialization changes, making those trait choices the single most important traits to take regardless of build because of how great those benefits were. Which resulted in very boring builds that had "standard" trait line and individual trait choices that would literally make you significantly worse if you didn't take those standards.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    Yeah this is false. WoW is popular because...
    1) it's been around for years. Much longer than gw2. It has a solid playerbase that's been around since its inception.
    2) Believe it or not, WoW balance is actually much better than gw2's current balance because it has....wait you hear that? give and take. Repeat it.
    3) WoW's marketing team is spot on with their product showcase, aka marketing. Great marketing goes a long way. Anet's marketing likes to linger for a long time on a specific thing (remember griffons? lel) and hammer that onto people when they could linger on something more worthwhile like its unrivaled combat mechanics that no other game could even dream of accomplishing because the original devs who worked on it were plain and simple freaking BOSSES (kudos to you guys for constructing this combat system, seriously it's amazing).

    So, basically what you're telling me is that if I was the head of the balance team, introduce healthy balance to the game to help alleviate one of the 3 things that's holding gw2 back from what it could be, and what it used to be, pvp/wvw would be dead? At the same time, I've not seen you come back with what you would do to "fix" the game according to your standards. But I may have a slight clue (ok I lied, it's a big clue it's so obvious). You'd basically undo all the changes from the February patch because you think, keyword THINK, powercreep is "fun". If you were the head of balance, I'd give the game 2-3 months before next expac was cancelled, and the servers shut down for good, both pvp/wvw and pve. We'd have no more game.
    I'll also squash the statement of "so many classes balance is impossible/unfathomable" yet league of legends has what, close to 100 champions and they seem to be doing quite well with balance. Their playerbase and being able to stay in the competitive scene testifies to this.

    Most of the top players who've played in ESL, Worlds, big regional tournaments, etc....they came back when feb patch hit. You know what ultimately drove a lot of them off again recently? The broken promise of more frequent smaller balance passes to address factors that were missed in february and still may be running rampant right now that makes the game unfun because they're way overperforming. Lets take this specific patch as an example. Hot-fix level patch that could have easily been done after a couple weeks of discovering the issues that were causing this imbalance took....3 or 4 months? to implement. That's a big yikes.

    However, from what I've just read recently, they're going through another big layoff most likely thanks to Covid and everyone so scared to death for no reason over it that states decided to shut down for so long when it was not necessary. That, unfortunately, affects business so I can see why the hot-fix patch took some time to get here so I won't give them kitten for that. Btw folks at anet, I'm truly sorry for the things you guys are going through currently, please try and stay strong.

    BDO does not boast a healthy pvp scene. While it's an interesting one, if you max out your gear, you can literally one shot people. Not "one shot" but literally 1 skill depletes the entirety of the enemy's health bar. Do I still like BDO? Yes. But it's definitely not balanced.
    ESO, we could argue about that one there because I tend to think ESO is not bad in terms of balance. The combat looks and plays pretty cool, very similar to gw2 (but not quite there). IMO gw2 is much smoother and refined, feels more "real time".
    Tera online, lel. Though fun, yeah that's a meme. This is coming from someone who really enjoyed the gunner when it first came out.

    I'm also pretty hyped for ashes of creation and new world, they look really cool. I've not played those yet so i can't make a great comparison. Anxious to try both out.

    All in all, yeah gw2's balance is not where it should be but I do feel it's slowly working toward it. what killed balance was during the specialization patch before HoT release, one change which
    1) allowed burn and poison to break one cap, while also keeping their very high damage potential per tick (burn) and great utility by stunting healing power while it's applied (poison). This change did NOT need to happen, as the highest condition damage from burn and the great utility bonus from enemies being poisoned were enough to keep it as is and still function very well for condition style builds.
    2) overloading too many effects into a single trait after the specialization introduction, which resulted in builds being able to build as a "jack of all trades" build and still outperform builds that solely focused on one role, and then still performed something specific much better than the builds that focused on one major role (more give, little take, see how important give and take is?)
    3) Single trait choices granting very big benefit bonuses after introducing the specialization changes, making those trait choices the single most important traits to take regardless of build because of how great those benefits were. Which resulted in very boring builds that had "standard" trait line and individual trait choices that would literally make you significantly worse if you didn't take those standards.

    Lets agree to disagree and not speak to one another. You go your way and Ill go mine; I had a big long discussion post made to respond but I realize its a waste of time as it will likely be removed due to the safe space this is. You think likely that Im an ignorant Idiot (Judging by what you said in this post and how it came off. Im not sorry, I will put words in your mouth and assume. Too aggressive to care if that puts you in your feels.) And what I think is too colorful for me to put in this thread, or even in the community this game has garnered.

    Im tired of offering feedback, let it burn. Dont care. I dont think any of the changes coming or done will save the game; I dont think End of dragons will save the game and Im expecting everything I love to be removed and me be given the bird by the game. So do me a favor and just dont respond because I really dont want to talk to you going forward; Take that as you will because here we can't debate. Pointless. You and I both know it will get heated, and A-net hates passion of any kind on the forums no matter how its worded. Its not that I Care if I get banned before anyone goes there; I dont. But the removal of the post removes the point of posting it and honestly its not worth my effort.

    Be safe, Take care and stay healthy. May we NOT meet again.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

    1. Tera went into maintenance mode. And Tera 2 is in development.

    TERAs PvP hasnt been healthy even back when it was still regularly updated. It was always tiny. TERA 2 is not in development. They pretty explicitely shot that down earlier this year.

    1. I was comparing WvW to BDO explicitly because they do it better. Their WvW scene seems way healthier

    They dont, its actually got a lot more issues, and its even less healthy than WvW.

    1. ESO's PvP seems to be booming, the game seems to be doing better than this one? Do I play it? No. I don't like the art style.

    Yeah I cant say that they seem to agree. Lots of stories of matchmaking not even filling up the teams, leading to situations like 4v2. Booming doesnt appear to be the right word.

    1. Ashes will be fine considering they have tons of rich whales backing it; And who will pay for it. Its one of the most anticipated up-coming MMO's on the market and honestly the only one that I continuously hear about. Anything else is a one off and then never mentioned again~

    So did Wildstar. Not just that, Wildstar had a ton of hype behind it, thanks to its presentation, developers, and so on. On the other hand, Ashes has yet to shake the Scam stigma it got after the whole battle royale thing. It was anticipated once upon a time, before we know much about the game. Now? Most people dont really seem to care. It looks terrible, sub-based model means a lot of people straight up wont even try it, and its development cycle hasnt inspired confidence. It will go F2P quickly and die most likely, just as Wildstar did.

    Why am I comparing other MMO's to this one? Because this one despite its free nature is not as popular which is a given considering its presence on both twitch and youtube, if you want to get into it final fantasy (bleh) and ESO (meh) seem more popular with more of a playerbase and a unity in that player base. Like I Said Guild wars 2 to me seems to be on a downward trend, people are leaving and yet these other games aren't have a huge exodus? Their modes seem lively and people are producing content for it (Well not tera because of obvious reasons). Note I love guild wars, I dont really care about any of these other games but as an outsider looking in and from what I see the community is more engaged and numerous on all game modes than they are here. PvP has shrunk, continues to shrink and WvW is only good when the band-wagon goes into your favor. Honestly The game doesn't feel very alive and the "feel" is more important than the numeric value because when it FEELS like no ones there, you leave. Simple as that. I doubt we have 11 million active accounts in the game in general and I HIGHLY DOUBT pvp is in the higher echelon of the community population, I think the only two modes with good pop numbers is open world PvE and WvW because there is little no bar of entry (Even though the bars are completely fabricated).

    Of course FFXIV is more popular. Its a bloody final fantasy game. Name recognition matters a lot. Likewise with ESO, though in its case we dont even know if it really is bigger. They dont tend to share numbers. Oh and ESO already had its Exodus. Its just rebounding now. Somewhat. Its PvP is however underpopulated (moreso than GW2 if the stories are to be believed) and continously shrinking. Esodil seems to be at the level of lowest tier WvW at the highest population, and worse below that.

    Other games seem to be doing better, radio silence also doesn't really bring confidence. While I think the other games like you said are hot garbo, I feel like guild wars 2 isn't doing enough and doing fast enough cadence on balance changes/reworks. Im assuming End of dragons will come with new specs and reworks to old specs and the classes, I think and hope it will basically remake/revitalize/fix the game. But my faith is shaken and Im not sure Im able to believe it until they prove it to me; Note I never said guild wars 2 was a bad game based on personal opinion. I said as a competitive player Id never touch it if I were introduced to it today, but im already invested so I stick with it and Im basing my view on how I look at games. And to me right now the game is not as fun as it was~ Its subjective but no more or less real than the reality you see, and the issue Is when I see so many people leaving it just doesn't make me believe things will get better.

    Lets be real here, if youre a competitive player, youre not likely to play an MMO for that. As far as MMOs are concerned though? GW2 still has the best PvP. ESOs is doing worse, FFXIVs PvP exists purely as a technicality, BDOs is p2w incarnate and thats about it. Granted, yes, GW2s PvP has issue, slow balance patches, the absolute catastrophe that was the february patch.

    Goes for you too by the way, second verse same as the first. Done preaching to this choir.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    Yeah this is false. WoW is popular because...
    1) it's been around for years. Much longer than gw2. It has a solid playerbase that's been around since its inception.
    2) Believe it or not, WoW balance is actually much better than gw2's current balance because it has....wait you hear that? give and take. Repeat it.
    3) WoW's marketing team is spot on with their product showcase, aka marketing. Great marketing goes a long way. Anet's marketing likes to linger for a long time on a specific thing (remember griffons? lel) and hammer that onto people when they could linger on something more worthwhile like its unrivaled combat mechanics that no other game could even dream of accomplishing because the original devs who worked on it were plain and simple freaking BOSSES (kudos to you guys for constructing this combat system, seriously it's amazing).

    So, basically what you're telling me is that if I was the head of the balance team, introduce healthy balance to the game to help alleviate one of the 3 things that's holding gw2 back from what it could be, and what it used to be, pvp/wvw would be dead? At the same time, I've not seen you come back with what you would do to "fix" the game according to your standards. But I may have a slight clue (ok I lied, it's a big clue it's so obvious). You'd basically undo all the changes from the February patch because you think, keyword THINK, powercreep is "fun". If you were the head of balance, I'd give the game 2-3 months before next expac was cancelled, and the servers shut down for good, both pvp/wvw and pve. We'd have no more game.
    I'll also squash the statement of "so many classes balance is impossible/unfathomable" yet league of legends has what, close to 100 champions and they seem to be doing quite well with balance. Their playerbase and being able to stay in the competitive scene testifies to this.

    Most of the top players who've played in ESL, Worlds, big regional tournaments, etc....they came back when feb patch hit. You know what ultimately drove a lot of them off again recently? The broken promise of more frequent smaller balance passes to address factors that were missed in february and still may be running rampant right now that makes the game unfun because they're way overperforming. Lets take this specific patch as an example. Hot-fix level patch that could have easily been done after a couple weeks of discovering the issues that were causing this imbalance took....3 or 4 months? to implement. That's a big yikes.

    However, from what I've just read recently, they're going through another big layoff most likely thanks to Covid and everyone so scared to death for no reason over it that states decided to shut down for so long when it was not necessary. That, unfortunately, affects business so I can see why the hot-fix patch took some time to get here so I won't give them kitten for that. Btw folks at anet, I'm truly sorry for the things you guys are going through currently, please try and stay strong.

    BDO does not boast a healthy pvp scene. While it's an interesting one, if you max out your gear, you can literally one shot people. Not "one shot" but literally 1 skill depletes the entirety of the enemy's health bar. Do I still like BDO? Yes. But it's definitely not balanced.
    ESO, we could argue about that one there because I tend to think ESO is not bad in terms of balance. The combat looks and plays pretty cool, very similar to gw2 (but not quite there). IMO gw2 is much smoother and refined, feels more "real time".
    Tera online, lel. Though fun, yeah that's a meme. This is coming from someone who really enjoyed the gunner when it first came out.

    I'm also pretty hyped for ashes of creation and new world, they look really cool. I've not played those yet so i can't make a great comparison. Anxious to try both out.

    All in all, yeah gw2's balance is not where it should be but I do feel it's slowly working toward it. what killed balance was during the specialization patch before HoT release, one change which
    1) allowed burn and poison to break one cap, while also keeping their very high damage potential per tick (burn) and great utility by stunting healing power while it's applied (poison). This change did NOT need to happen, as the highest condition damage from burn and the great utility bonus from enemies being poisoned were enough to keep it as is and still function very well for condition style builds.
    2) overloading too many effects into a single trait after the specialization introduction, which resulted in builds being able to build as a "jack of all trades" build and still outperform builds that solely focused on one role, and then still performed something specific much better than the builds that focused on one major role (more give, little take, see how important give and take is?)
    3) Single trait choices granting very big benefit bonuses after introducing the specialization changes, making those trait choices the single most important traits to take regardless of build because of how great those benefits were. Which resulted in very boring builds that had "standard" trait line and individual trait choices that would literally make you significantly worse if you didn't take those standards.

    Lets agree to disagree and not speak to one another. You go your way and Ill go mine; I had a big long discussion post made to respond but I realize its a waste of time as it will likely be removed due to the safe space this is. You think likely that Im an ignorant Idiot (Judging by what you said in this post and how it came off. Im not sorry, I will put words in your mouth and assume. Too aggressive to care if that puts you in your feels.) And what I think is too colorful for me to put in this thread, or even in the community this game has garnered.

    Im tired of offering feedback, let it burn. Dont care. I dont think any of the changes coming or done will save the game; I dont think End of dragons will save the game and Im expecting everything I love to be removed and me be given the bird by the game. So do me a favor and just dont respond because I really dont want to talk to you going forward; Take that as you will because here we can't debate. Pointless. You and I both know it will get heated, and A-net hates passion of any kind on the forums no matter how its worded. Its not that I Care if I get banned before anyone goes there; I dont. But the removal of the post removes the point of posting it and honestly its not worth my effort.

    Be safe, Take care and stay healthy. May we NOT meet again.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

    1. Tera went into maintenance mode. And Tera 2 is in development.

    TERAs PvP hasnt been healthy even back when it was still regularly updated. It was always tiny. TERA 2 is not in development. They pretty explicitely shot that down earlier this year.

    1. I was comparing WvW to BDO explicitly because they do it better. Their WvW scene seems way healthier

    They dont, its actually got a lot more issues, and its even less healthy than WvW.

    1. ESO's PvP seems to be booming, the game seems to be doing better than this one? Do I play it? No. I don't like the art style.

    Yeah I cant say that they seem to agree. Lots of stories of matchmaking not even filling up the teams, leading to situations like 4v2. Booming doesnt appear to be the right word.

    1. Ashes will be fine considering they have tons of rich whales backing it; And who will pay for it. Its one of the most anticipated up-coming MMO's on the market and honestly the only one that I continuously hear about. Anything else is a one off and then never mentioned again~

    So did Wildstar. Not just that, Wildstar had a ton of hype behind it, thanks to its presentation, developers, and so on. On the other hand, Ashes has yet to shake the Scam stigma it got after the whole battle royale thing. It was anticipated once upon a time, before we know much about the game. Now? Most people dont really seem to care. It looks terrible, sub-based model means a lot of people straight up wont even try it, and its development cycle hasnt inspired confidence. It will go F2P quickly and die most likely, just as Wildstar did.

    Why am I comparing other MMO's to this one? Because this one despite its free nature is not as popular which is a given considering its presence on both twitch and youtube, if you want to get into it final fantasy (bleh) and ESO (meh) seem more popular with more of a playerbase and a unity in that player base. Like I Said Guild wars 2 to me seems to be on a downward trend, people are leaving and yet these other games aren't have a huge exodus? Their modes seem lively and people are producing content for it (Well not tera because of obvious reasons). Note I love guild wars, I dont really care about any of these other games but as an outsider looking in and from what I see the community is more engaged and numerous on all game modes than they are here. PvP has shrunk, continues to shrink and WvW is only good when the band-wagon goes into your favor. Honestly The game doesn't feel very alive and the "feel" is more important than the numeric value because when it FEELS like no ones there, you leave. Simple as that. I doubt we have 11 million active accounts in the game in general and I HIGHLY DOUBT pvp is in the higher echelon of the community population, I think the only two modes with good pop numbers is open world PvE and WvW because there is little no bar of entry (Even though the bars are completely fabricated).

    Of course FFXIV is more popular. Its a bloody final fantasy game. Name recognition matters a lot. Likewise with ESO, though in its case we dont even know if it really is bigger. They dont tend to share numbers. Oh and ESO already had its Exodus. Its just rebounding now. Somewhat. Its PvP is however underpopulated (moreso than GW2 if the stories are to be believed) and continously shrinking. Esodil seems to be at the level of lowest tier WvW at the highest population, and worse below that.

    Other games seem to be doing better, radio silence also doesn't really bring confidence. While I think the other games like you said are hot garbo, I feel like guild wars 2 isn't doing enough and doing fast enough cadence on balance changes/reworks. Im assuming End of dragons will come with new specs and reworks to old specs and the classes, I think and hope it will basically remake/revitalize/fix the game. But my faith is shaken and Im not sure Im able to believe it until they prove it to me; Note I never said guild wars 2 was a bad game based on personal opinion. I said as a competitive player Id never touch it if I were introduced to it today, but im already invested so I stick with it and Im basing my view on how I look at games. And to me right now the game is not as fun as it was~ Its subjective but no more or less real than the reality you see, and the issue Is when I see so many people leaving it just doesn't make me believe things will get better.

    Lets be real here, if youre a competitive player, youre not likely to play an MMO for that. As far as MMOs are concerned though? GW2 still has the best PvP. ESOs is doing worse, FFXIVs PvP exists purely as a technicality, BDOs is p2w incarnate and thats about it. Granted, yes, GW2s PvP has issue, slow balance patches, the absolute catastrophe that was the february patch.

    Goes for you too by the way, second verse same as the first. Done preaching to this choir.

    Oh I only responded the way I did because of how standoff-ish you responded. Not sorry you can't take your own heat, sprinkled with a little bit of structured feedback. Yes retreat to your safe space. I agree that anet will be quick to flag things that hurts others feelings but I can dish whatever you dish out back to me, so personally I feel a little bad that you can't let loose so that I can just let loose on you too. :smiley:

    Thanks for the chats though, and I wish you the best in all of your endeavors.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    Yeah this is false. WoW is popular because...
    1) it's been around for years. Much longer than gw2. It has a solid playerbase that's been around since its inception.
    2) Believe it or not, WoW balance is actually much better than gw2's current balance because it has....wait you hear that? give and take. Repeat it.
    3) WoW's marketing team is spot on with their product showcase, aka marketing. Great marketing goes a long way. Anet's marketing likes to linger for a long time on a specific thing (remember griffons? lel) and hammer that onto people when they could linger on something more worthwhile like its unrivaled combat mechanics that no other game could even dream of accomplishing because the original devs who worked on it were plain and simple freaking BOSSES (kudos to you guys for constructing this combat system, seriously it's amazing).

    So, basically what you're telling me is that if I was the head of the balance team, introduce healthy balance to the game to help alleviate one of the 3 things that's holding gw2 back from what it could be, and what it used to be, pvp/wvw would be dead? At the same time, I've not seen you come back with what you would do to "fix" the game according to your standards. But I may have a slight clue (ok I lied, it's a big clue it's so obvious). You'd basically undo all the changes from the February patch because you think, keyword THINK, powercreep is "fun". If you were the head of balance, I'd give the game 2-3 months before next expac was cancelled, and the servers shut down for good, both pvp/wvw and pve. We'd have no more game.
    I'll also squash the statement of "so many classes balance is impossible/unfathomable" yet league of legends has what, close to 100 champions and they seem to be doing quite well with balance. Their playerbase and being able to stay in the competitive scene testifies to this.

    Most of the top players who've played in ESL, Worlds, big regional tournaments, etc....they came back when feb patch hit. You know what ultimately drove a lot of them off again recently? The broken promise of more frequent smaller balance passes to address factors that were missed in february and still may be running rampant right now that makes the game unfun because they're way overperforming. Lets take this specific patch as an example. Hot-fix level patch that could have easily been done after a couple weeks of discovering the issues that were causing this imbalance took....3 or 4 months? to implement. That's a big yikes.

    However, from what I've just read recently, they're going through another big layoff most likely thanks to Covid and everyone so scared to death for no reason over it that states decided to shut down for so long when it was not necessary. That, unfortunately, affects business so I can see why the hot-fix patch took some time to get here so I won't give them kitten for that. Btw folks at anet, I'm truly sorry for the things you guys are going through currently, please try and stay strong.

    BDO does not boast a healthy pvp scene. While it's an interesting one, if you max out your gear, you can literally one shot people. Not "one shot" but literally 1 skill depletes the entirety of the enemy's health bar. Do I still like BDO? Yes. But it's definitely not balanced.
    ESO, we could argue about that one there because I tend to think ESO is not bad in terms of balance. The combat looks and plays pretty cool, very similar to gw2 (but not quite there). IMO gw2 is much smoother and refined, feels more "real time".
    Tera online, lel. Though fun, yeah that's a meme. This is coming from someone who really enjoyed the gunner when it first came out.

    I'm also pretty hyped for ashes of creation and new world, they look really cool. I've not played those yet so i can't make a great comparison. Anxious to try both out.

    All in all, yeah gw2's balance is not where it should be but I do feel it's slowly working toward it. what killed balance was during the specialization patch before HoT release, one change which
    1) allowed burn and poison to break one cap, while also keeping their very high damage potential per tick (burn) and great utility by stunting healing power while it's applied (poison). This change did NOT need to happen, as the highest condition damage from burn and the great utility bonus from enemies being poisoned were enough to keep it as is and still function very well for condition style builds.
    2) overloading too many effects into a single trait after the specialization introduction, which resulted in builds being able to build as a "jack of all trades" build and still outperform builds that solely focused on one role, and then still performed something specific much better than the builds that focused on one major role (more give, little take, see how important give and take is?)
    3) Single trait choices granting very big benefit bonuses after introducing the specialization changes, making those trait choices the single most important traits to take regardless of build because of how great those benefits were. Which resulted in very boring builds that had "standard" trait line and individual trait choices that would literally make you significantly worse if you didn't take those standards.

    Lets agree to disagree and not speak to one another. You go your way and Ill go mine; I had a big long discussion post made to respond but I realize its a waste of time as it will likely be removed due to the safe space this is. You think likely that Im an ignorant Idiot (Judging by what you said in this post and how it came off. Im not sorry, I will put words in your mouth and assume. Too aggressive to care if that puts you in your feels.) And what I think is too colorful for me to put in this thread, or even in the community this game has garnered.

    Im tired of offering feedback, let it burn. Dont care. I dont think any of the changes coming or done will save the game; I dont think End of dragons will save the game and Im expecting everything I love to be removed and me be given the bird by the game. So do me a favor and just dont respond because I really dont want to talk to you going forward; Take that as you will because here we can't debate. Pointless. You and I both know it will get heated, and A-net hates passion of any kind on the forums no matter how its worded. Its not that I Care if I get banned before anyone goes there; I dont. But the removal of the post removes the point of posting it and honestly its not worth my effort.

    Be safe, Take care and stay healthy. May we NOT meet again.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @wevh.2903 said:

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    @Math.5123 said:
    Honestly, good job on the guardian changes. Destroying lazy symbol builds let's them build guardian from the ground up without buffing this awful playstyle.

    A guardian main undertanding spam aoe at node is not a healthy playstyle what is this

    AOE spam is fine if the game had healers or builds that deal with AOE spam. Of course there are no healers in spvp, but that's why it works in WvW, and without aoe, the zergs would never die to anything.

    This thread right now, in which there's too many messages to reply to, manifests the problem. Endless bickering about "this is stronger than that", "this is weaker than this..."ITS ALL SUBJECTIVE. There is and can be NO standard so long as you want player choices...

    The current understanding of balance is completely artificial, and it doesn't work. And we will be here forever until we realize that.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    There are some things I agree with you on, but I disagree with you on your statement of "MMOs can never be balanced". This is false.

    and continuing on the above thought, @Thornwolf.9721 is right here and his statement is not false... it is mathematically impossible to make an mmo like gw2 "perfectly balanced" without removing player choice. Ive proved this before, in fact directly to you in a different thread.

    @Ghos.1326 said:
    Balance is about the gives and the takes. The amount of give vs the amount of take is what makes something balanced. when something flows too much in one direction via too much give or take, or the thing being given far outweighs the thing being taken or vice versa, then is when you are presented with the dilemma of imbalance.
    Fixing that imbalance requires data from many sources, including but not limited to: amount of attacks within 1 skill, cooldown, casting time, casting speed, after/precast, damage coefficients, speed of flow from one attack to another, supporting damage outliers, etc etc. The list goes on.

    and even though this is more on track...but it's still a misunderstanding about balance mechanisms, cause real balance mechanisms DO exist that you can learn from elsewhere. It's not about requiring infinite amount of data at all...which ive pointed out before is a fallacy. It's about just changing your perspective about what balance actually is (really only requiring you to doing some basic research on understanding balance mechanisms and how they work elsewhere in the world). "Gives and Takes" is an oversimplification...an unfinished way of trying to explain balance, when it has a proper real world applicable definition.

    no.

    Yes, he is completly correct. If you were head of the balance team the game mode for both PvP and WvW would be dead; Perfect balance is impossible and honestly with as many classes/specs as we have its nearly even unfathomable. And we HAVE MORE ON THE WAY? Honestly Id rather the game be fun, than some dumb version of balance when pre-febuary was more balanced in the fun department then we have now. You needed to be skilled to do anything sure; But at least learning and being better was fun and finally getting to where you WERE able to overcome the hurdles that led you there was fun. Competitive play isn't meant to be easy, its not meant to hold your hand and honestly guild wars 2 is more like a MoBa in its competitive modes than it is a MMO-RPG and Id wager there is NOTHING rpg about this game. Smite, Leauge, DoTa and even WoW and ESO all have unbalanced match-ups and unbalanced aspects of their classes. BUT all of those games are more popular than guild wars 2 in the competitive market, and in the words of joko "Did you ever stop to wonder what that says about you?"

    This game is a joke, it isn't even well known and isn't even applicable in the sphere of mmo's right now despite an expansion being on the horrizon; If you're not invested already then you wont be interested as they do nothing to get you into the game or invested into it. And I as a competitive player if I looked at the game right now, and hadn't been here since launch would turn my back and never look back. Because its hot garbage. THE ONLY REASON Im here is because I was invested already, and I remember the fun I used to have and am seeking to find it again. Ashes of Creation is fast approaching, WvW and PvP will get murdered if they dont do something because ashes has even FASTER and more FLUID gameplay with it being one of the primary focus's of the game (Given it comes out.) And even crowfall has made huge strides in ensuring that their game is getting better and better. Sure amazons new world might screw the pooch, but you have that lord of the rings mmo they are working on who will have a pretty big emphases from what I've seen and heard on faction based warfare. So no this version of balance is clearly unhealthy for the game, most of the people I've known have quit. People who were solely here for the PvP and WvW and from what I've heard; Unless end of dragons completely changes the game and gives big content for both modes (It wont, we know it wont..) They aren't coming back. And thats only within my circle; But those friends had guilds and those guilds have quit? One of which was a pretty sizeable guild able to fill out a map zerg if they put their mind to it. CLEARLY not the best state of the game.

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Dave.6819 said:
    I'm lookin at a profession balance/build variety in general. Not only FB vs. Daredevil.

    So, you're legitimately trying to argue that if a class is strong in PvE, it should be nerfed in PvP?

    Wow talk about completely distorting his argument.

    He's clearly talking about how Firebrand, and guardian for that matter in general, has more variety of viable builds to pick from in multiple games modes, than thief, which has essentially only 1 build that's used in just 1 game mode.

    Like he said earlier, remove conquest and turn it into 3v3, and thief goes out the window in terms of viability because thief has no viable team-fighting builds (None that can at least be considered meta)

    My position on this is that all the classes are like thief, but each with varying levels of viability in the number of viable build choices....some have more than others, and that's his point. Thief so happens to be one of the worst ones. Like i mentioned earlier, remove DP/Daredevil from the game and thief will not exist...all the weapons and choices they have are dogpile.

    I'm still waiting to hear why the variety or strength of builds that a class has in PvE/WvW is relevant to a discussion on PvP balance.

    Still waiting.

    Because WvW and PvP often share balance despite being different modes; These changes might make it into WvW so the WvW playerbase is like "We dont want this, dont you do it." As for PvE I have no clue considering they aren't even applicable to these changes and will never be? Entitlement maybe. But WvW and PvP are lumped together and I honestly for a moment thought these were coming to wvw too because Im used to them just blanketing the changes into both modes. That is squarely laid on A-net shoulders, because the norm is not what they did here.

    @mes.4607 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    Wow, this forum is so salty, I'm having a blast reading this. Everyone seems so emotionally invested in this game. It is pure insanity on here.

    GW2 has a fairly balanced PvP as is. I mean it sucks that they often don't adress the big issues in a timely manner, that there still are some mechanics so obviously flawed you'd think they must have realized by now (Explosive entrance, Grenade kit). But it's what it is. The next patch will come and hopefully bring in the necessary mechanical changes.

    If they stick to the regular balance cadence the next real balance patch should come in about a month. If it doesn't they're probably too busy designing new elite specs. I hope the steam release will bring in a lot of new players and put a bit of spotlight on the PvP as well. Until then I think it's more reasonable to be happy that PvP balance is being run as a side project by one dev (who luckily knows what he's doing most of the time).

    It's releasing on Steam? Comment section is going to be wild

    Its gonna get horrible reviews and get murdered. Thats whats gonna happen because steam players are inherently more confrontational, lack patience and above all a TON of competitive players exist within the medium. A-net has put competitive/PvP on their tags and its being compared to smite, ESO, BDO and Tera all of which boast a healthy PVP scene with tons of players. (At least for me its saying they are similar, based on whats in my libary.) Guild wars 2's PvP right now doesn't hold up to any of those games in terms of fun. So you can expect a hate mob will form eventually when they get to the pvp and really sink their teeth in, considering they aren't going to be selling the expansions through steam judging by what that_shaman has stated its likely that they will have to buy it through the Black lion in game. THAT will already be a huge issue of contention if it turns out to be true.

    ESO, BDO and TERA have "healthy" PvP scenes? TERAs is practically non-existent, BDO is like WvW except considerably more unbalanced gear-wise, and ESO is split between a worse WvW and a PvP scene hardly anyone plays. Also why do you think a sub-based MMO will even scratch GW2? Sub-based MMOs have failed over and over, and will keep failing. Ashes of Creation will launch like Wildstar and try to salvage itself like wildstar. Its also fully tab targetted with global cooldowns, so its less fast and a whole lot less fluid.

    1. Tera went into maintenance mode. And Tera 2 is in development.

    TERAs PvP hasnt been healthy even back when it was still regularly updated. It was always tiny. TERA 2 is not in development. They pretty explicitely shot that down earlier this year.

    1. I was comparing WvW to BDO explicitly because they do it better. Their WvW scene seems way healthier

    They dont, its actually got a lot more issues, and its even less healthy than WvW.

    1. ESO's PvP seems to be booming, the game seems to be doing better than this one? Do I play it? No. I don't like the art style.

    Yeah I cant say that they seem to agree. Lots of stories of matchmaking not even filling up the teams, leading to situations like 4v2. Booming doesnt appear to be the right word.

    1. Ashes will be fine considering they have tons of rich whales backing it; And who will pay for it. Its one of the most anticipated up-coming MMO's on the market and honestly the only one that I continuously hear about. Anything else is a one off and then never mentioned again~

    So did Wildstar. Not just that, Wildstar had a ton of hype behind it, thanks to its presentation, developers, and so on. On the other hand, Ashes has yet to shake the Scam stigma it got after the whole battle royale thing. It was anticipated once upon a time, before we know much about the game. Now? Most people dont really seem to care. It looks terrible, sub-based model means a lot of people straight up wont even try it, and its development cycle hasnt inspired confidence. It will go F2P quickly and die most likely, just as Wildstar did.

    Why am I comparing other MMO's to this one? Because this one despite its free nature is not as popular which is a given considering its presence on both twitch and youtube, if you want to get into it final fantasy (bleh) and ESO (meh) seem more popular with more of a playerbase and a unity in that player base. Like I Said Guild wars 2 to me seems to be on a downward trend, people are leaving and yet these other games aren't have a huge exodus? Their modes seem lively and people are producing content for it (Well not tera because of obvious reasons). Note I love guild wars, I dont really care about any of these other games but as an outsider looking in and from what I see the community is more engaged and numerous on all game modes than they are here. PvP has shrunk, continues to shrink and WvW is only good when the band-wagon goes into your favor. Honestly The game doesn't feel very alive and the "feel" is more important than the numeric value because when it FEELS like no ones there, you leave. Simple as that. I doubt we have 11 million active accounts in the game in general and I HIGHLY DOUBT pvp is in the higher echelon of the community population, I think the only two modes with good pop numbers is open world PvE and WvW because there is little no bar of entry (Even though the bars are completely fabricated).

    Of course FFXIV is more popular. Its a bloody final fantasy game. Name recognition matters a lot. Likewise with ESO, though in its case we dont even know if it really is bigger. They dont tend to share numbers. Oh and ESO already had its Exodus. Its just rebounding now. Somewhat. Its PvP is however underpopulated (moreso than GW2 if the stories are to be believed) and continously shrinking. Esodil seems to be at the level of lowest tier WvW at the highest population, and worse below that.

    Other games seem to be doing better, radio silence also doesn't really bring confidence. While I think the other games like you said are hot garbo, I feel like guild wars 2 isn't doing enough and doing fast enough cadence on balance changes/reworks. Im assuming End of dragons will come with new specs and reworks to old specs and the classes, I think and hope it will basically remake/revitalize/fix the game. But my faith is shaken and Im not sure Im able to believe it until they prove it to me; Note I never said guild wars 2 was a bad game based on personal opinion. I said as a competitive player Id never touch it if I were introduced to it today, but im already invested so I stick with it and Im basing my view on how I look at games. And to me right now the game is not as fun as it was~ Its subjective but no more or less real than the reality you see, and the issue Is when I see so many people leaving it just doesn't make me believe things will get better.

    Lets be real here, if youre a competitive player, youre not likely to play an MMO for that. As far as MMOs are concerned though? GW2 still has the best PvP. ESOs is doing worse, FFXIVs PvP exists purely as a technicality, BDOs is p2w incarnate and thats about it. Granted, yes, GW2s PvP has issue, slow balance patches, the absolute catastrophe that was the february patch.

    Goes for you too by the way, second verse same as the first. Done preaching to this choir.

    Oh I only responded the way I did because of how standoff-ish you responded. Not sorry you can't take your own heat, sprinkled with a little bit of structured feedback. Yes retreat to your safe space. I agree that anet will be quick to flag things that hurts others feelings but I can dish whatever you dish out back to me, so personally I feel a little bad that you can't let loose so that I can just let loose on you too. :smiley:

    Thanks for the chats though, and I wish you the best in all of your endeavors.

    Don't got a safes-space mate, I just know A-net loathes my existence and look for any reason to flag my forum account. If the post is removed and you cant read it then whats the point? If your response to my response is removed then whats the point? The discussion is censored and removed therefor it doesn't need to exist. Im not retreating or giving up; I just know we literally can't have the debate here because it will get heated. And yea I am stand-offish as I dont like most human beings; Your post didn't bug me I just assume you think the same thing I think of you. Thats all. Its not about loosing its about two opposing views meeting, and in reality we agree on more than either of us likely care to admit. I just think its funny you use the "give and take" argument when A-net never gives when they take, its not how they work or function and the reason WoW's balance is as good as it is comes down to that ideal. IF they did that likely most of us wouldn't be so mad... but they dont and never will.

    Anyhow, again be safe. And something something, vulgar goodbye inserted here I guess~

  • Eddbopkins.2630Eddbopkins.2630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I would expect some new Amulets with HoT and PoF stats such as Viper or Trailblaizer ...

    Trailblazers was in the game but was removed becuase of it unfair advantage of having to much tankyness and to much condi in one ammy. It was a bad idea to have it in pvp anyway.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:
    @Dave.6819 what you are missing is this, anet will almost never remove sb5 so you are stuck to that for your class. Go roll a mesmer, right now it's just thief without sb5.

    Thief doesn't give other thieves plasma.