Kittymarks - The kitten girl's comprehensive benchmark - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Kittymarks - The kitten girl's comprehensive benchmark

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  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    I had a long reply written out for this, frankly put, these builds are misleading, they lack even the most basic context that other benchmarks have tried to given, there are so so so many reasons why half of these benchmarks are wrong, and will fall flat on there faces the moment they touch a raid environment, at least with someone whom has put effort into there website like QT I can point someone towards condi firebrand and be like "Ok, here are your gear choices, here's what bosses you're effective on, you'll notice that you have some bosses you're not, that's why you want to have gear for power dragonhunter for bosses like KC."

    Informations on that coming soon, once Kitty's done with benchmarking process. Kitty's just a lot slower at outputting dem informations 'cause she's doing this all alone with way lesser resources than qT. (note: the site has been online for 1,5 months now and Kitty also had to do tons of gear farming between early September and starting the benchmarks 2 weeks ago, still lacking a few weapons that Kitty needs to farm.)

    Trying to herald this post as "wow look at how many V I A B L E builds there are that the meta scoffs ignores!" is stupid, i could honestly fart out a 25k+ parse with pistol pistol deadeye and post it, does that make pistol thief remotely worth bringing to raids? hell no, for a magnitude of reasons.

    Let's not forget you are joining a group where 6 other people are resigning themselves to VERY boring builds like chrono, druid & condiPS, you are expected to come, take one of these vital dps spots, and bring the most synergistic, optimal build you can for each boss, it doesn't have to be diehard meta, but you're expected to pull a certain level of weight.

    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like. Of course, the builds with lower DPS potential do require more skilled play to pull off enough DPS, but that's just the matter of skill, not the fault of the build. If someone can't pull enough DPS on their build, the blame is more on person who chose to play a build but not playing it well enough to justify using it. (unless the build is messed up with bad runes, stats and stuff but that's again the person's bad choices).

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    These builds are enough to kill bosses. When people realize you don't need to look for bad weavers, pugging will be much better experience.

    Again with the weaver nonsense, you realise how incredibly easy condi weaver is to play right? you have a very VERY small handful of skills to use, some coming with hefty cooldowns so even less twitch based players can plan there next move with little impunity, you'd have to literally just hammer drake breath only to get something as low as 10k.

    Again you are there on 9 other peoples times, show some respect and try to to optimise, it's not about "oh look they have low dps checks, oh look you can do it on PP Deadeye" it's about respect for the 9 other people who have potentially invested time into making something work whilst you show little regard for that and just play snowflake builds for the sake of it, and it's not like you can't return to your build after, picking an optimised one is not a set in stone decision.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    "Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like. Of course, the builds with lower DPS potential do require more skilled play to pull off enough DPS, but that's just the matter of skill, not the fault of the build. If someone can't pull enough DPS on their build, the blame is more on person who chose to play a build but not playing it well enough to justify using it. (unless the build is messed up with bad runes, stats and stuff but that's again the person's bad choices"

    That right there is the best thing you or anyone has said! That's it in a nutshell and once more figure it out the happier folks might be. We will always have our meta clones but for the most what is said above holds true. ;)

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    To "Kitty", same as above post my point about your Condi renegade rotation, you say to use Soulcleave which is a huge dps lose and yet in your video you are using razorclaw, as you should. That could be very confusing to someone trying out your ideas and such, that's all.

    Kitty wrote the 6 guides she's written this far before the expansion landed so people would have some idea about what the incoming builds would be like. And she knows she'll need to fix them when she's done with her tests. Guess Kitty better add a "waiting for a fix" or something on them meanwhile =.=

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    To "Kitty", same as above post my point about your Condi renegade rotation, you say to use Soulcleave which is a huge dps lose and yet in your video you are using razorclaw, as you should. That could be very confusing to someone trying out your ideas and such, that's all.

    Kitty wrote the 6 guides she's written this far before the expansion landed so people would have some idea about what the incoming builds would be like. And she knows she'll need to fix them when she's done with her tests. Guess Kitty better add a "waiting for a fix" or something on them meanwhile =.=

    All good............ ;)

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

  • Static.9841Static.9841 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    At this point, I'm struggling to consider this as anything other than plain trolling. All this is doing is telling newbie raiders and bad players that they can bring whatever the heck they like and not worry about compositions, decent rotations or to strive for anything above mediocrity and will just further people getting upset about being kicked from raids and blaming it on elitism rather than how atrocious they are and how bad their build is.

    I have no idea what pugs you claim to be parsing higher DPS than, but I absolutely do not believe it unless you are personally advertising for newbies or people who have no clue and can bring whatever they like. This is going to do more harm than it's ever going to do any good and if you think anyone who takes raids seriously and/or wants to do them competently will look at this and think any of it flies, you're living in a dreamworld, but then I guess you can keep making excuses and blaming those 'elitist' players for not being part of raids.

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer, it doesn't matter what the squad's composition is like.

    It's incredible how you don't even see what a recipe for disaster this is going to be in reality. I'd honestly love to see you attempt this with the mediocre DPS and random builds you're encouraging and now without any dedicated meta support builds and see how well you do - or rather how badly. I feel like you think it's OK to bash out a single boss for hours as long as you beat it in the end. You're nothing but harmful for raids, you do realise that actual bosses have mechanics and don't just sit there like DPS golems right?

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    They won't be well received because community is biased towards playing certain builds even though I dare to say 70% of pugs is incapable of executing meta builds. Kitty's builds do enough damage to allow raid to be cleared. No boss in raids requires top benchmark. 20k is absolutely enough.

    I would like to know why pugs are incapable of executing meta builds from qt/snow crows though according to you. Is it because they have to follow a "30 step rotation"? (Hint: they don't all have 30 steps, i'm looking at you condi ele/condi ps/condi daredevil/condi renegade and others) Because the way i see it Kitty has a rotation too in her videos...even often mimicking the qt rotations but with even more (and often extremely useless and unneeded) actions added in between the steps. I mean she literally needs to follow a rotation to even get to a few of the numbers she places in her benchmarks.

    Take her power berserker rotation for instance as a small example. In those rotations she does not take Blood Reckoning to recharge that F1 burst, but instead opts for taking wild blow AND THEN USING THAT to regain adrenaline putting a very useful cc skill on cool down. This is extremely unrealistic and possibly even dangerous when your group already struggles with cc because you're effectively wasting a heavy cc skill just so you can pump out an extra F1 which you could also do with Blood Reckoning and that even heals you for a percent of damage done. This is a good example of what people mean when they say these rotations are, to put it in strong terms, rubbish. I would surely hope you would atleast agree that doing things like this is not healthy and leads to bad decisions when someone would follow her rotations.

    Basically what it boils down too is the fact that atleast in qt/snow crow rotations there is a certain logic, which i have trouble finding in hers. So why try and follow some rotation that is in all logic sub optimal, and perhaps even detrimental to the run. Like learning to waste cc skills in rotation when someone, for example, is about to get sacrificed at Matthias leading to not enough cc and someone gets sacrificed and dies.

    All i'm saying is why go and learn something sub-optimal when you can learn something optimal, there is no difference in the process of learning something bad or good but for the end result when you have to put what you learned in practice. Learning a rotation from her or learning a rotation from qt/snow crows/lucky noobs is nothing different except for the quality. Like people are arguing that you can learn to drive a toy car via remote control when you could also just learn how to drive an actual car.

    Hopefully i would get a better counter argument to this then someone going "nye, you're mean and elitist" because that just...contributes nothing and shows a heavy lack of understanding of the topic.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Static.9841 said:
    All this is doing is telling newbie raiders and bad players that they can bring whatever the heck they like and not worry about compositions, decent rotations or to strive for anything above mediocrity and will just further people getting upset about being kicked from raids and blaming it on elitism rather than how atrocious they are and how bad their build is.

    Raids are designed the way you need absolutely nothing more than mediocrity. Fake elitism is fake. No raid boss is hard dps check. There is a lot of room for mistakes or less stressful approach.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?
    The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

  • @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?
    The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

    Except those same people end up in the people wanting fast clears group cause deep down no one wants to spend hours wiping on the same boss.
    DPS classes have the easiest roles in raid, they have 0 responsibilities apart from doing damage. You'd think or atleast hope they would try doing the one thing they are responsible for

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Digit.1823 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    They won't be well received because community is biased towards playing certain builds even though I dare to say 70% of pugs is incapable of executing meta builds. Kitty's builds do enough damage to allow raid to be cleared. No boss in raids requires top benchmark. 20k is absolutely enough.

    I would like to know why pugs are incapable of executing meta builds from qt/snow crows though according to you. Is it because they have to follow a "30 step rotation"? (Hint: they don't all have 30 steps, i'm looking at you condi ele/condi ps/condi daredevil/condi renegade and others) Because the way i see it Kitty has a rotation too in her videos...even often mimicking the qt rotations but with even more (and often extremely useless and unneeded) actions added in between the steps. I mean she literally needs to follow a rotation to even get to a few of the numbers she places in her benchmarks.

    Take her power berserker rotation for instance as a small example. In those rotations she does not take Blood Reckoning to recharge that F1 burst, but instead opts for taking wild blow AND THEN USING THAT to regain adrenaline putting a very useful cc skill on cool down. This is extremely unrealistic and possibly even dangerous when your group already struggles with cc because you're effectively wasting a heavy cc skill just so you can pump out an extra F1 which you could also do with Blood Reckoning and that even heals you for a percent of damage done. This is a good example of what people mean when they say these rotations are, to put it in strong terms, rubbish. I would surely hope you would atleast agree that doing things like this is not healthy and leads to bad decisions when someone would follow her rotations.

    Basically what it boils down too is the fact that atleast in qt/snow crow rotations there is a certain logic, which i have trouble finding in hers. So why try and follow some rotation that is in all logic sub optimal, and perhaps even detrimental to the run. Like learning to waste cc skills in rotation when someone, for example, is about to get sacrificed at Matthias leading to not enough cc and someone gets sacrificed and dies.

    All i'm saying is why go and learn something sub-optimal when you can learn something optimal, there is no difference in the process of learning something bad or good but for the end result when you have to put what you learned in practice. Learning a rotation from her or learning a rotation from qt/snow crows/lucky noobs is nothing different except for the quality. Like people are arguing that you can learn to drive a toy car via remote control when you could also just learn how to drive an actual car.

    Hopefully i would get a better counter argument to this then someone going "nye, you're mean and elitist" because that just...contributes nothing and shows a heavy lack of understanding of the topic.

    On these points I will have to agree, especially the one about the War rotation....yea, bad, just bad really.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?
    The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

    Except those same people end up in the people wanting fast clears group cause deep down no one wants to spend hours wiping on the same boss.
    DPS classes have the easiest roles in raid, they have 0 responsibilities apart from doing damage. You'd think or atleast hope they would try doing the one thing they are responsible for

    Yea, on that I am with you. One of my worst hates if you will is people that want a carry. Now, I am not for kicking someone for crappy dps but if we can help them then its just helps the whole picture as it makes them better raiders in the end. I don't mind wipes if we as a group are learning or have a new tank or any of the other variables. I am used it coming from WOW...hours spent on endless trash only to wipe on Boss because someone couldn't cc or god knows what. So yea, it doesn't bother me. But that's me and I reckon there all a lot that are just the opposite. Same reason I don't do dungeons as it seems everyone wants to just blow thru them, whereas I would like to try and fight and learn mechanics and all that. I am also a late comer to the game and get that most are over dungeons, so that's fine.
    But yea, if most of the post on these forums are from those that wish to be carried......please no.

  • @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

    The sheer difference in this comparison, one WoW rotations are simulated to perfection in hundreds of thousands of itterations, EVERYONE I know in that game has always worked towards the same goal in terms of getting better at classes, your comparison is not one of "oh we just didn't take whats optimal" because out of 20/25 difficulty ther eis ALOT of flexibility. What you're comparing is a low skill group too one that is high skill, and hence can clear faster, put the high skill on the same classes as yours and they'll still clear in twice your time.

    And given how highend raiders on WoW clear multiple times a week on mains and alts, it's safe to say they experience more of the content than a group that just lazily drifts through one wing does.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?
    The people that want the speed clears, and non wiping no tear clears will of course follow qT (I do) and the meta and pug a group asking for LI's (I wont). But there is also a vast number who just wanna have fun, and I think that's the target she is aiming for.

    @Static.9841 said:
    Yeah because a composition with no proper support and a "bring what you like" attitude, aiming for low DPS with rotations that promote DPS loss because of badly used skills where auto-attack would be better and using CC abilities whenever you feel like rather than when needed is going to be completely free of stress. I think you're more clueless than she is.

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • cat.8975cat.8975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it.
    Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results.

    Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at 52%. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that.

    The longer a fight takes, the more likely you are to have someone fail a mechanic and cause a raid wipe. You should almost always strive for faster kill times because of this (unless you're intentionally goofing around). The only exception to this is running safer builds/strats where, while the time-to-kill may be longer, the chance of failure is significantly lowered enough to make up for it.

    I research the game numbers and do wiki stuff sometimes. If you have any questions about how damage is calculated, feel free to ask me (easier to hit me up on reddit @ towelcat though)

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭

    @cat.8975 said:
    The only exception to this is running safer builds/strats where, while the time-to-kill may be longer, the chance of failure is significantly lowered enough to make up for it.

    Which is why Kitty's currently farming gears for DPS/support builds to benchmark them after she's done with pure DPS builds. 'Cause we currently have way more DPS available than what's needed to clear a boss and thus bringing some extra support does help increase the chance of getting the kill.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Most of the bosses don't require a single meta support build. Meta supports do make reaching optimal DPS easier, but it's not like other classes can't grant might, quickness and fury, for example. As long as squad's average DPS through the mechanisms is enough to get the kill before enrage timer

    >

    Stopping you here, surely you see the huge loophole in your way of thinking, you take longer to do the boss, the boss does more mechanics, the chance to wipe becomes increasingly more high, people -STRUGGLE- with min/maxed meta builds as it is, it's not often to have 100li pugs following it wipe alot, could you imagine how terrible everything would be if we deferred back to not giving half a toss and just hoping we brute through an encounter on the lowest denominator check?

    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    The point trying to be made is that not everyone wants to join a pug like that nor do they want/need/feel like doing a speed clear. kitten raids in WOW used to take up to 2 hrs for 1 wing and you guys (the really uber raiders) are clearing the ones in that time frame, all wings! Sometimes is just as fun to enjoy the battle and some of the work put into the fight than just blow through it and go, now what?

    The sheer difference in this comparison, one WoW rotations are simulated to perfection in hundreds of thousands of itterations, EVERYONE I know in that game has always worked towards the same goal in terms of getting better at classes, your comparison is not one of "oh we just didn't take whats optimal" because out of 20/25 difficulty ther eis ALOT of flexibility. What you're comparing is a low skill group too one that is high skill, and hence can clear faster, put the high skill on the same classes as yours and they'll still clear in twice your time.

    And given how highend raiders on WoW clear multiple times a week on mains and alts, it's safe to say they experience more of the content than a group that just lazily drifts through one wing does.

    I did as well. Studied and watched and practiced and geared to become the best I could. But as I have mentioned it has been a few years for me and since then the game has changed so my references to WOW are dated, so may not be the best to pull from but its all I got.

  • Verenhimo.3296Verenhimo.3296 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

  • Static.9841Static.9841 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    Yes, I'm aware of you constantly attempting to use this same phrase ad nauseam as your cardboard shield to hide behind, but in reality it's not viable for any competent run. It's not about speedclearing, it's about efficient clearing. I'd love to see you go against sloth tossing out your DPS and CC at random rather than in any way that could be considered efficient and see how well you do. If you ever managed to beat a raid boss, I'd consider it a statistical fluke after many hours of failed attempts.

    I want to see logs from a series of runs on all raid bosses.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    Please, the math is easily there. please stop trying to speak on matters with feels over facts.

  • Lunaire.9741Lunaire.9741 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them

    Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box.

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them

    Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box.

    But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them

    Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box.

    But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards.

    setting up party composition is up to commander

  • @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Lunaire.9741 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    So nomatter what someone else has to sacrifice there fun so you can play a snowflake build, why should 3/6 people have to play supports just too enable people to play lazily, it's not like it's hard to see how little DPS these builds do when you pull the rug of alacrity, quickness, 25 might, banners, spotter, spirits & fury out from under them.

    meta weaver is also trash without all the support leeched from other players

    You're fixation on weaver is urking, I would imagine ALOT of classes barely reach respectable numbers without the chrono safety net, hence the support meta ¬¬.

    which means argument against using support builds together with Kitty's builds is pointless because both her and qT's benchmarks are inflated with optimal support combos

    Who do you think has a higher chance of clearing, high dps optmized builds with no support, or badly played snowflake builds with no support? :+1:

    both will fail

    what about special snowflake support builds, healing thief maybe?... oh wait Im sure you expect chronos and druids in the group and to play something proper. no fun for them

    Special snowflake still can be reasonable build. Like Kitty builds. You need to start thinking outside the box.

    But her testing is done with 5 stacks of Gotl, with perma alacrity and quickness with the druid spirits. thats requires those classes to be running proper stuff. So to some extent she obviously expect the support classes to be running correct builds. as i was saying earlier double standards.

    setting up party composition is up to commander

    Im aware of this. It doesn't change what I'm saying about all these "run whatever you want build" people. They are mostly DPS'ers saying that. They still expect to be in a group with proper support. So if they expect Meta comp then why not just run meta builds too?

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:
    Enough support to help DPSers do enough damage is all that is needed. And it's not like Kitty's yelling "FOLLOW THE ROTATION KITTY SHOWS ON THIS VID". She does expect people to have at least some common sense to save CCs for the time they are needed, even if it drops DPS a bit. And that's a matter of knowing the boss fight well enough 'cause bosses have breakbars bound to either certain time, interval or health% mostly.

    And like Kitty's prolly already said more than once, what she's doing isn't aimed for speedrunners, 'cause speedrunners want optimized DPS and for such, qT the best source. Kitty just offers some alternatives, most of which are viable enough to carry their weight if played properly.

    I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it. Why go though all this trouble of benchmarking/keeping up your website/making videos if it's not so people have something to follow. If you expect "avarage pug" people to hit at least somewhere on the level of your numbers they are going to have to mimic your actions to some extent. Just as people have to mimic qt/sc/ln rotations if they want to hit the numbers they are putting out.

    Honestly, you're not doing all this just to go: "I know i've been making benchmarks and videos, but you can throw everything i'm doing out the window and just do, i dunno, whatehvs rotation you're feeling. Lolz."

    This is how it works when you make something and then put it out to the public, it WILL get peer reviewed and people WILL tell you if what you're doing is beneficial or harmful. Sure people could maybe bring things a bit more friendly, but beating around the bush and letting you continue your rose colored fantasy is also negative for you. I mean take the cc example i gave, that you're using wild blow in your rotation and then claiming people to be smart and save cc skills even if it drops dps. Woman i literally gave you the highly better alternative - Blood Reckoning - that you could use instead of wild blow. It does everything wild blow does and then more and you don't lose dps:

    • It's a quicker cast.
    • It completely removes the cool down on F1 skills so you can use them again instantly.
    • And it HEALS you for a percent of damage you're doing.

    Obviously it doesn't do cc damage, but by using Blood Reckoning you can save Wild Blow for the time you do need cc. The fact you didn't think of this yourself makes me question your claim that you're better then the average pug player. Either that or you're not taking the benchmarks that are already out there and have been tested/peer reviewed/tested some more and then released to the public seriously. Everyone, from qt to snow crows. From dnt to Lucky Noobs has used Blood Reckoning in Berserker rotations ever since it came out. It wouldn't hurt you looking at those rotations a bit more to improve your own gameplay and skill. This is an example of what people are talking about when they're speaking of special snowflake builds that actually bring nothing special to the table.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it.

    oh come on, does qt have monopolly for releasing anything for this game? Kitty can share her work as much as any elitist celebrity you decided to follow.

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:

    I would expect you to use common sense as well, it's true you're not literally telling people to follow your rotations but by releasing your benchmarks and video's you are implying it.

    oh come on, does qt have monopolly for releasing anything for this game? Kitty can share her work as much as any elitist celebrity you decided to follow.

    If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs.

    Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need.

    Exactly. People just copy paste qt builds without understanding why they are built this way or that they are made with certain comp in mind. At least you understand how your profession works. Now try explaining this to 10k weavers believing they are actually providing 50k.

    I like Kitty builds becasue they may be easier to execute for mediocre players resulting in better numbers with less stress than pretending to be speedrunners (which somehow most of raiding community believes they are, top kek).

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭

    @Digit.1823 said:
    If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs.

    Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2.

    But Kitty's benchmarks are not peer reviewed, because she never claimed to be your peer. To all those that criticize her work, feel free to do so, but almost all of you seem to ignore the fact that you're clearly not the public she's aiming at. You are farming raiders, you want efficiency, excellency, and you know what? More power to you. Kitty's benchmarks are not for farmer raiders (what she calls speed-running raiders, but I think she's incorrect, it's more a matter of efficiency, which tend to lead to faster clean times indeed).

    You have one fear : that noob raiders will use her tools and feel justify to play off-metabuilds. But this is irrelevant, because, let's be frank, you wouldn't play with people that would use Kitty's benchmarks in the first place! I'll repeat : you're not the intended public, it doesn't impact you in any way, form, or shape. You are the ones selecting the members of your raid squad, right? You're perfectly entitled to demand that they put as much effort as you deem necessary. But if some people are less ambitious, if some people want to find another way to enjoy raids, clearly not as efficient, but wholly conscious of what they're doing,...how does it impact you, honestly?

    What I think, it's that it's the zerg meta all over. You want people to come preformated so that you have a bigger pool to choose your pugs from. Even if it irks me, I can understand that (that's what I don't raid in GW2, I've cleared raids in the past, I'm burned out). But the fact is, Kitty's benchmarks will never impact that. At worse, it'll be exactly the same as now : either a pug conforms to your criterias, or he/she doesn't, but my suspicion is that's a different public than those that aim for a more casual approach to raid.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever. E: Since it doesn't show video's title in embedded vids here, Kitty clarifies that she plays quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand in the video below.

    @cat.8975 said:
    Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it.
    Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results.

    Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at 52%. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that.

    Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • Digit.1823Digit.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    @Myhr.9108 said:

    @Digit.1823 said:
    If you're going to cherry pick, then at least cherry pick with a vague understanding of the entire post i made. Qt has a monopoly on nothing, but you try and derail as much as you like. My intentions were to make clear to Kitty that her benchmarks were going to get peer reviewed the instant she made them public, just as qt's benchmarks were peer reviewed. Did you know for instance that qt's condi ps benchmark is not even the maximum? Snow crows player Goku placed a benchmark allowing for more damage, with a slightly different rotation. Did you know qt's condi ps benchmark is not even good for might upkeep? I tested this myself and the nightmare/trapper combo only alllows a vague might upkeep of slightly above 20 and as soon as you even slightly interrupt your rotation it drops down to somewhere around 10/15 because you lack the extra might duration. So i instantly went back to aristocracy runes to ensure my party always gets the 25 might stacks they need. This is what it means to have a good understanding of the game, wich you seem to lack. The player that did the condi ps rotation of qt even said so in the comments of his own youtube video, they only did nightmare/trapper combo to see what their theoretical maximum could be with their own rotation but he instantly admitted that they too run aristocracy in their own raid runs.

    Now if you want me to engage you further in discussion please stop cherry picking my posts, and please answer my question i made when i quoted you back on page 2.

    But Kitty's benchmarks are not peer reviewed, because she never claimed to be your peer. To all those that criticize her work, feel free to do so, but almost all of you seem to ignore the fact that you're clearly not the public she's aiming at. You are farming raiders, you want efficiency, excellency, and you know what? More power to you. Kitty's benchmarks are not for farmer raiders (what she calls speed-running raiders, but I think she's incorrect, it's more a matter of efficiency, which tend to lead to faster clean times indeed).

    You have one fear : that noob raiders will use her tools and feel justify to play off-metabuilds. But this is irrelevant, because, let's be frank, you wouldn't play with people that would use Kitty's benchmarks in the first place! I'll repeat : you're not the intended public, it doesn't impact you in any way, form, or shape. You are the ones selecting the members of your raid squad, right? You're perfectly entitled to demand that they put as much effort as you deem necessary. But if some people are less ambitious, if some people want to find another way to enjoy raids, clearly not as efficient, but wholly conscious of what they're doing,...how does it impact you, honestly?

    What I think, it's that it's the zerg meta all over. You want people to come preformated so that you have a bigger pool to choose your pugs from. Even if it irks me, I can understand that (that's what I don't raid in GW2, I've cleared raids in the past, I'm burned out). But the fact is, Kitty's benchmarks will never impact that. At worse, it'll be exactly the same as now : either a pug conforms to your criterias, or he/she doesn't, but my suspicion is that's a different public than those that aim for a more casual approach to raid.

    It is indeed true that she is not my peer in terms of skill or insight, that much is indeed made clear. But here is another snippet of the definition of peer-reviewing:

    "evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field."

    Benchmarks and rotations are in this case "the field" we are talking about (i wouldn't know or particularly care if we can call it "scientific" or even "professional"). But what i do know is that the moment she entered the field with benchmarks and numbers that people in the same field can look at it and review it. If you want to nail me to the wall on a technicality then it's easy to rephrase it: The moment she released those benchmarks people with the correct understanding are allowed to look at it, review it and voice their opinion on it. That's how it works. Nothing is stopping me from looking at her rotation videos, using my experience to see something is not quite right and then stating "Hey look, what you're doing here and there is less then optimal for x and y reason." A good example in the case being the Wild Blow vs Blood Reckoning usage i stated in multiple posts now.

    The only fear i have (nice of you to claim to know my fear btw) is that this is taken seriously, and the people with a scrap of knowledge voicing their concerns are being silenced on the premise of "elitism" by white knights. I've already stated that the process of learning something is exactly the same when learning something bad or good, it is only when you put what you learned into practice that the efficiency becomes visible. Why learn something sub-optimal when you can just start learning something optimal from the start.

    There is absolutely no difference in using a qt/sc/ln rotation in a high speed raid clear or in a casual run with the difference being how serious you're taking the raid. The order in which you're activating skills stays exactly the same with the only difference maybe being how quickly you're going through the motions to try and maximize your damage. You can try and squeeze that sixth F1 burst on your condi ps every single time, or just let it slide and stick with an easy 5 F1 bursts even if quickness and alacrity up time is sufficient for six bursts every time...sure you're doing less damage but it's still going to be a lot more then when you've learned a rotation that only has room for 3/4 F1 bursts. In the end, when you've learned an efficient rotation, the order in which you're activating your skills stays exactly the same every time so once you've learned that order it's quite easy to go at it a bit slower/easier to allow for a more casual experience.

    It's like i have to literally tell people that having fun and playing efficiently at the same time is quite possible. Like people think using an efficient rotation means fun gets kicked out the backdoor and can stay in the yard till people are done raiding. What is this, i don't even...

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever.

    @cat.8975 said:
    Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it.
    Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results.

    Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at 52%. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that.

    Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage.

    Good job! To help your case I'd like to suggest you trying to find some time and actually provide videos for some builds where you raid and kill bosses. So all the naysayers can move away to their groups and leave people actually interested in your builds and less stressful gaming read this thread without need to go through all the unnecessary and unjustified elitism here.

    Don't forget to post more often, I like your thread!

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Digit.1823 said:
    The only fear i have (nice of you to claim to know my fear btw) is that this is taken seriously, and the people with a scrap of knowledge voicing their concerns are being silenced on the premise of "elitism" by white knights. I've already stated that the process of learning something is exactly the same when learning something bad or good, it is only when you put what you learned into practice that the efficiency becomes visible. Why learn something sub-optimal when you can just start learning something optimal from the start.

    There is absolutely no difference in using a qt/sc/ln rotation in a high speed raid clear or in a casual run with the difference being how serious you're taking the raid. The order in which you're activating skills stays exactly the same with the only difference maybe being how quickly you're going through the motions to try and maximize your damage. You can try and squeeze that sixth F1 burst on your condi ps every single time, or just let it slide and stick with an easy 5 F1 bursts even if quickness and alacrity up time is sufficient for six bursts every time...sure you're doing less damage but it's still going to be a lot more then when you've learned a rotation that only has room for 3/4 F1 bursts. In the end, when you've learned an efficient rotation, the order in which you're activating your skills stays exactly the same every time so once you've learned that order it's quite easy to go at it a bit slower/easier to allow for a more casual experience.

    It's like i have to literally tell people that having fun and playing efficiently at the same time is quite possible. Like people think using an efficient rotation means fun gets kicked out the backdoor and can stay in the yard till people are done raiding. What is this, i don't even...

    You do sound like everything should indeed be optimized from the start. Which leads to only a few viable builds that everyone should play. Newsflash: playing the same build for a long time can get boring after some time. And perhaps it's better that there's new, perhaps not-so-optimized builds for peoples to try and have fun with when that time comes. Or people just quitting raiding (and perhaps the whole game) when it gets boring is a better option?

    Lots of Kitty's benchmarks do have flaws. But do we have any other more skilled peoples who test various builds' efficiency and post their results to public? qT doesn't do that. SC doesn't do that. For example, search youtube for power ranger or soulbeast longbow/axe+axe benchmark and see if anyone else has tried that weapon combo. Yet Kitty's pulled 25k benchmark on it and better players could clearly pull more. For power soulbeast greatsword/sword+axe, which is a rather popular power ranger weapon combo among the few people who bother with power ranger builds, there's even 1 benchmark.
    So, if Kitty didn't benchmark the possible alternatives, who would?

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    Good job! To help your case I'd like to suggest you trying to find some time and actually provide videos for some builds where you raid and kill bosses. So all the naysayers can move away to their groups and leave people actually interested in your builds and less stressful gaming read this thread without need to go through all the unnecessary and unjustified elitism here.

    Kitty will once she has time to raid again, but first Kitty needs to finish her benchmarks. For gameplay vids, Kitty has separate, older channel. https://www.youtube.com/user/kittysamart

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA

    Lmao top dps? Not even close.

    Btw heres a log for condition mesmer (not mirage). Build isnt even recommended for VG due to the loss of phantasms, but i do almost twice your boss dps. You kinda got carried m8ty.

    https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/DerivedSymbolsPreferringCorrectingReduced

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA

    Lmao top dps? Not even close.

    You realize that Kitty was playing quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand on that one? Which obviously means that Kitty had to take a decent toll on personal DPS.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • FrostDraco.8306FrostDraco.8306 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @FrostDraco.8306 said:
    https://imgur.com/L2m0tVA

    Lmao top dps? Not even close.

    You realize that Kitty was playing quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand on that one? Which obviously means that Kitty had to take a decent toll on personal DPS.

    I also realize you could have done similar dps playing chrono, and bringing alacrity AND quickness AND distorts. But thats none of my business -sips tea-. If you look at that log, you can see a chrono who does slightly worse dps than you, but is more useful to his team. And yes, it was a pug run.

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    Please go do a clear with any level of LI pug and refuse to take the 6 meta supports, record it and get back to me how that works for you.

    Kitty hasn't got a chance to do that with LI-groups 'cause "metasupport or gtfo", but with some nabby squad she actually got quite close to that once. We only had tank chrono as metasupport, rest out of meta. And we also had to carry a bad ranger but whatever. E: Since it doesn't show video's title in embedded vids here, Kitty clarifies that she plays quickness-support/condi-DPS firebrand in the video below.

    @cat.8975 said:
    Good players can use trash builds and sort of get away with it.
    Bad players need good builds if they want reasonable results.

    Imagine you have two players. Player A can hit 95% of a benchmark, while player B can only hit 65%. If you give both of them a build that is 20% weaker, then you end up with someone playing at 76% effectiveness, and someone playing at 52%. You should always take every little gain you can get, and builds are a big part of that.

    Kitty didn't have time to reply to this properly earlier as she was at work. This imagination doesn't take into consideration that a weaker build might be a lot easier to learn, like is case with some of Kitty's benchmarks. If player B hits 82% of weaker build's benchmark, that's already a slight improvement to damage.

    Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO.

    People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs.

  • Tarasicodissa.7084Tarasicodissa.7084 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @ people talking about target audience:
    As I and many others mentioned previously, this is gonna do even MORE HARM to newbie players than it does to seasoned veterans. Good player will immediately notice that something is way off and just dismiss these benchmarks, because he'll learn nothing useful from them.
    Newbie might be tricked into thinking these will have better results for him and actually pursue it, instead of learning straight up from the best source - qT or SC. When this noobie is gonna try to find a solid raid run, he's either gonna get kicked immediately or after people observe his horrible performance (partly due to bad build, partly due to bad rotation, both of which he got from these "benchmarks"). Or worse yet, he's gonna find a group of 9 similar people (all running off-meta builds from Kitty) who will accept him and proceed to struggle for hours on a single boss without realising what they're doing wrong.

    If you're looking into an easy foolproof way to play a solid DPS build efficiently (even if not as good as qT), there are some sources, but Kitty ain't one of them. Some time ago I came across a videoguide (somebody could dig it up perhaps?) from some DnT member, who suggested a power daredevil build to new players, including important tips and tricks as well as solid ingame footage demonstrating all those things in practice. So yes, there are sources, which will teach you easy starter tips for DPS in raids, but it's best to learn from good players who know what they're talking about, not learn bad rotations and further embed your mistakes.

    Edit: I've found it. It's slightly outdated now, but still offers some very useful advice.

  • Bast Bow.2958Bast Bow.2958 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    Hey Kitty! Thanks for all the work! It’s always nice seeing people contributing to the game. To each their own if they want to follow or not.

  • LadyKitty.6120LadyKitty.6120 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO.

    People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs.

    Well, snowflake builds can be useful at first 3 W4 bosses since they are easy, lots of them are better than meta at Deimos (if doing the popular "tank and oil kiter at edge, hand kiter at other edge and rest at mid) 'cause Deimos tends to favour ranged builds and...just how many qT meta builds we have currently that don't get seriously nerfed DPS-wise when playing from distance? 2, condi firebrand and condiweaver. And apparently the only other DPS-build qT lists as meta on that boss is power DH, which does get some nasty DPS-nerf at range.
    At VG, it doesn't matter much which builds peoples bring as long as there's a tank, enough heals to keep ppls alive and people do the mechanics properly (the only mechanic complicating the fight is greens and greens aren't a difficult mechanic. Moving between sectors is on tank's responsibility and Kitty doesn't feel like it should receive extra mention).
    At Gors, the need for DPS support is high compared to some others, but can be done without a single metabuild and with mediocre DPS builds as long as there's enough alternative DPS support and people know kitten they are doing.
    Sab doesn't differ much from DPS-golem from support's and DPSer's perspective. Can be done without meta as long as there's some alternative DPS support, cannonkillers know what they're doing and people bring enough CC for Knuckles.
    Sloth isn't heavy DPS check boss, moves slowly and as long as the mechanics are dealt with (in other words, reflects, condicleanse and pulling in the slubs), it doesn't matter much which builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS.
    Matthias has very low DPS check (50k ish enough) and as long as the mechanics are dealt with accordingly, it doesn't really matter what builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS.
    Escort...build requirements aren't worth mentioning.
    Keep Construct...possibly the worst boss for lots of alternative builds due to heavy need for burst damage. But then again, there's actually surprisingly many heavy-bursting power builds that just do weaker sustained DPS over longer fights and thus are generally shut out by metaists.
    Kitty can't say for Xera as she hasn't been to that boss yet (Xera pug trainings are super-rare on LFG and as a nice person, Kitty has done trainings one every boss 'til she's felt confident enough for NA exp squads. On EU, Kitty's LI alone would prevent her doing anything above escort, VG and Cairn 'cause seriously, when Kitty visited EU for a week, 100+ LI for MO, Gors and Sam? Kitty's been doing those since she had a couple VG kills under her belt on NA. And before she even got first Cairn kill.)

    So, is it really so difficult to find a boss that snowflakes can do? Oh well, they've promised lots of snow on Thursday so guess Kitty can hide from your bloodlust among dem snowflakes.

    It's Kitty. The young lady who streams and records videos playing various (non-)metabuilds. Raid/fractal videos at youtube.com/LadyKitty, Kittymarks test results at youtube.com/Kittymarks and tinyurl.com/Kittymarks and streams at twitch.tv/ladykittygw2 .

  • @LadyKitty.6120 said:

    @Verenhimo.3296 said:
    Of course it was vale guardian, the most undertuned boss, next up you'll be telling me snowflake builds can be useful because they can do literal golem bosses like MO.

    People have played x10 druids on VG, infact I can think of many MANY bad x10 combos that've done vg for fun runs.

    Well, snowflake builds can be useful at first 3 W4 bosses since they are easy, lots of them are better than meta at Deimos (if doing the popular "tank and oil kiter at edge, hand kiter at other edge and rest at mid) 'cause Deimos tends to favour ranged builds and...just how many qT meta builds we have currently that don't get seriously nerfed DPS-wise when playing from distance? 2, condi firebrand and condiweaver. And apparently the only other DPS-build qT lists as meta on that boss is power DH, which does get some nasty DPS-nerf at range.
    At VG, it doesn't matter much which builds peoples bring as long as there's a tank, enough heals to keep ppls alive and people do the mechanics properly (the only mechanic complicating the fight is greens and greens aren't a difficult mechanic. Moving between sectors is on tank's responsibility and Kitty doesn't feel like it should receive extra mention).
    At Gors, the need for DPS support is high compared to some others, but can be done without a single metabuild and with mediocre DPS builds as long as there's enough alternative DPS support and people know kitten they are doing.
    Sab doesn't differ much from DPS-golem from support's and DPSer's perspective. Can be done without meta as long as there's some alternative DPS support, cannonkillers know what they're doing and people bring enough CC for Knuckles.
    Sloth isn't heavy DPS check boss, moves slowly and as long as the mechanics are dealt with (in other words, reflects, condicleanse and pulling in the slubs), it doesn't matter much which builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS.
    Matthias has very low DPS check (50k ish enough) and as long as the mechanics are dealt with accordingly, it doesn't really matter what builds are brought as long as there's enough heals and DPS.
    Escort...build requirements aren't worth mentioning.
    Keep Construct...possibly the worst boss for lots of alternative builds due to heavy need for burst damage. But then again, there's actually surprisingly many heavy-bursting power builds that just do weaker sustained DPS over longer fights and thus are generally shut out by metaists.
    Kitty can't say for Xera as she hasn't been to that boss yet (Xera pug trainings are super-rare on LFG and as a nice person, Kitty has done trainings one every boss 'til she's felt confident enough for NA exp squads. On EU, Kitty's LI alone would prevent her doing anything above escort, VG and Cairn 'cause seriously, when Kitty visited EU for a week, 100+ LI for MO, Gors and Sam? Kitty's been doing those since she had a couple VG kills under her belt on NA. And before she even got first Cairn kill.)

    So, is it really so difficult to find a boss that snowflakes can do? Oh well, they've promised lots of snow on Thursday so guess Kitty can hide from your bloodlust among dem snowflakes.

    Thing is the better the DPS the less chance of a wipe as you finish bosses faster and skip mechanics like in center strat Xera. You can clear things with mediocre dps, increasing chance of mistakes and wipes.

    But why aim so low ?

  • Shard.4791Shard.4791 Member ✭✭✭

    Nemesis was right.

  • Myhr.9108Myhr.9108 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Digit.1823 said :

    It is indeed true that she is not my peer in terms of skill or insight, that much is indeed made clear. But here is another snippet of the definition of peer-reviewing:

    "evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field."

    Benchmarks and rotations are in this case "the field" we are talking about (i wouldn't know or particularly care if we can call it "scientific" or even "professional"). But what i do know is that the moment she entered the field with benchmarks and numbers that people in the same field can look at it and review it. If you want to nail me to the wall on a technicality then it's easy to rephrase it: The moment she released those benchmarks people with the correct understanding are allowed to look at it, review it and voice their opinion on it. That's how it works. Nothing is stopping me from looking at her rotation videos, using my experience to see something is not quite right and then stating "Hey look, what you're doing here and there is less then optimal for x and y reason." A good example in the case being the Wild Blow vs Blood Reckoning usage i stated in multiple posts now.

    The only fear i have (nice of you to claim to know my fear btw) is that this is taken seriously, and the people with a scrap of knowledge voicing their concerns are being silenced on the premise of "elitism" by white knights. I've already stated that the process of learning something is exactly the same when learning something bad or good, it is only when you put what you learned into practice that the efficiency becomes visible. Why learn something sub-optimal when you can just start learning something optimal from the start.

    There is absolutely no difference in using a qt/sc/ln rotation in a high speed raid clear or in a casual run with the difference being how serious you're taking the raid. The order in which you're activating skills stays exactly the same with the only difference maybe being how quickly you're going through the motions to try and maximize your damage. You can try and squeeze that sixth F1 burst on your condi ps every single time, or just let it slide and stick with an easy 5 F1 bursts even if quickness and alacrity up time is sufficient for six bursts every time...sure you're doing less damage but it's still going to be a lot more then when you've learned a rotation that only has room for 3/4 F1 bursts. In the end, when you've learned an efficient rotation, the order in which you're activating your skills stays exactly the same every time so once you've learned that order it's quite easy to go at it a bit slower/easier to allow for a more casual experience.

    It's like i have to literally tell people that having fun and playing efficiently at the same time is quite possible. Like people think using an efficient rotation means fun gets kicked out the backdoor and can stay in the yard till people are done raiding. What is this, i don't even...

    Ugh, you claim I'm using technicalities when you're abusing them yourselves. My point remains : you're not the target public. Of course, you can give your opinion, which is that people should play as you want them to play to achieve the results you want to have. I'll repeat : maybe they do not want the same thing as you do. Why learn something sub-optimal? Because reasons. Many. Like, having fun, being lazy, savoring the journey more than the result. And no, I never said you couldn't have fun by playing a meta-build, in fact, I sincerely hope you do enjoy your raiding sessions. Heck, maybe the immense majority of people enjoy aiming for the "optimal" way. As I said, good for you. But not everybody is like you. Does it really matter to you that there are other benchmarks than the optimal ones? And, no, I'm not promoting for Pugs to just go into the LFG and claim "yay, I can raid because Kitty's benchmarks said I could!". But for a group of people of the same mind, that aim to just clear the content, without as much constrain as raid farming, this is an interesting tool. All I see is you trying to undermine the value of her work instead of actually helping her. Or ignoring her, which you clearly should do since her work will never impact you (because, you know, you'll never raid with people using said tool).

    @Tarasicodissa.7084 said:
    @ people talking about target audience:
    As I and many others mentioned previously, this is gonna do even MORE HARM to newbie players than it does to seasoned veterans. Good player will immediately notice that something is way off and just dismiss these benchmarks, because he'll learn nothing useful from them.
    Newbie might be tricked into thinking these will have better results for him and actually pursue it, instead of learning straight up from the best source - qT or SC. When this noobie is gonna try to find a solid raid run, he's either gonna get kicked immediately or after people observe his horrible performance (partly due to bad build, partly due to bad rotation, both of which he got from these "benchmarks"). Or worse yet, he's gonna find a group of 9 similar people (all running off-meta builds from Kitty) who will accept him and proceed to struggle for hours on a single boss without realising what they're doing wrong.

    If you're looking into an easy foolproof way to play a solid DPS build efficiently (even if not as good as qT), there are some sources, but Kitty ain't one of them. Some time ago I came across a videoguide (somebody could dig it up perhaps?) from some DnT member, who suggested a power daredevil build to new players, including important tips and tricks as well as solid ingame footage demonstrating all those things in practice. So yes, there are sources, which will teach you easy starter tips for DPS in raids, but it's best to learn from good players who know what they're talking about, not learn bad rotations and further embed your mistakes.

    Edit: I've found it. It's slightly outdated now, but still offers some very useful advice.

    I respectfully disagree. You're afraid noobs will take bad habits. But in your opinion, what is worse : someone who has a meta-build but no rotation experience, nore any raid experience, or someone who has a bad dps but does know the mechanics? Both will "get carried", and don't you think one will have an easier time getting better if you want him to play a meta-build than the other? Again, Kitty never claimed that her benchmarks are better than the optimal ones. They're aimed at determining what is viable, not optimal. If your raid group aims for optimal, yes, it makes sense to aim for optimal too due to respecting everyone. But if your raid group aims only for viable, that's a different story. You know, it's not only for the better players to help the ones that struggle, the bad players can also find their fun by themselves.

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