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I miss having dmg

xan.8549xan.8549 Member

So there i was derpin around smc, when a lil minstrils or nomads idk, scrapper shows up. Ive got the most offensive food on "Cilantro Lime Sous-Vide Steaks, Writ of Masterful Strength and im on berserker gunflame with scholar runes all zerk no hybrid no mix matchy stuff all zerk. The guy decides to humor me, and let me wail on him pop sig of fury and unblockable, go in for the gunflame traited for garanteed crit and..... I get a 2127. I load up using the heal get a 1717. Is this really how we're gunna play gw2 now? I wailed on him for about 3 minutes and he never got below 70% hp, why is this the direction of the game. No why has this been the direction of the game since 2014. is the point to get where there is no dmg and we just /emote each other? Build campfires and just sit around? Theres other games that do a much better job of this. I get it its 2020 and no one wants to feel like there a bad player and all but this is just rediculous I think toughness and dmg midigation is literally out of control now, and its fully in favor of Mega blobs that are 90% supports. It takes player skill completely out of the equation. And trust me there comes a point when even the mega blobbers are gunna sit in discord together and think thier amazing bc thier unkillable and be like this games too ez. Look at all the guilds, ENTIRE guilds that have left the game. Gw2 ur taking too much player skill out of the equation, and believe me the moment a better option with similar gameplay comes out everyone's gunna jump ship. People need to adapt, not just wear tankier kitten. Plz take the training wheels off so we can all have fun again. Thats all im asking for. Now dont get me wrong some stuff was HILARIOUSLY broken b4, like revenant 5, Im personally glad it got nerfed into being un-usable but the problem was mainly the way it 1 shot literally anything. That is not skillful gameplay, anyone can 1 shot something, theres no counterplay to it at all, "oops one shot u lol ur bad" -no not advocating this at all. But for a fully decked out zerker to get no where literally against a tanky dude thats literally by himself??? Idk, this is gunna fall on deaf ears and get no where but whatever I tried I gess. GG fun game =/

<1

Comments

  • Agreed.

    Removing our ability to burst the cheesy tank specs has hurt WvW drastically in solo/small scale. No surprise there is tons of them floating around WvW now.

    Sometimes I sneak into my screenshot folder and look at my wonderful glass core 18k+ killshots, I giggle a bit, and then close the folder and sigh.................

  • Balthazzarr.1349Balthazzarr.1349 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The key is to complain LOUDLY. That’s what the other folks did that didn’t like the damage. Now they can survive better on their builds of choice. Seriously, if everybody complains enough then protection will be NERFED or damage will be buffed and so on and so on and will go back-and-forth back-and-forth. All under the guise of balance.

    Just another WvW lifer who'll never say die... while dying again and again!

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    This is amusing to read, cause I play full minstrel scrapper primarily, and I still routinely get hit for 10k+ by gun flame (backstab too, but this is a war thread). Even without making mistakes, I get CC'd and the near instakilled by warriors all the time. Heal scrapper has 1 stunbreak and the only stability is an F skill from a gyro. I would make sure you have the gear on you think you do, because just about every class has a build that can 100-0 a full minstrel scrapper in under 3 seconds, especially if you catch them just after using their utilities.

    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps. Single target hps should match single target dps if the game is balanced correctly. Now, if that hps can tank several full dps, than you have a problem, which yes, this game has some of that.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.

    This brings the bunker scrapper from 100 to 70% health, like he said. :p

    Pretty poor for such a warrior build, don't you think? Maybe he exaggerated with his 2k example, but in general he is right.

    Side note: You forgot the damage reduction food in your calculation.

    Side note 2: Before anyone here comes to the wrong conclusion from that example: the problem is not that warrior deals not enough damage (the damage is fine!), but that bunker builds are too strong (too many defensive boons!).

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.

    This brings the bunker scrapper from 100 to 70% health, like he said. :p

    Pretty poor for such a warrior build, don't you think? Maybe he exaggerated with his 2k example, but in general he is right.

    Side note: You forgot the damage reduction food in your calculation.

    Side note 2: Before anyone here comes to the wrong conclusion from that example: the problem is not that warrior deals not enough damage (the damage is fine!), but that bunker builds are too strong (too many defensive boons!).

    The maximum hit would bring it to ~55%. But yes there are ways the scrapper can reduce the damage more, there are also ways the berserker can deal more.

    Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.

    And it would be outgoing healing food unless it's a literal troll build (not that this scrapper build isn't already troll for running nomads and sigil of momentum). And if someone wants to absolutely maximize cheese 100% all in on their survivability, why should you be able to kill them easily in a 1v1? They certainly aren't doing anything to you, or much else for anyone else.

    Edit: This is to say nothing of the dozens of other builds that wouldn't even survive one of those gunflames.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @God.2708 said:
    Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.

    Okay okay, but all this stuff coming together is a lot more unlikely than that the scrapper just dodges the killshot.

    Anyway the typical cheese combo in smallscale these days is scrapper + fb or scrapper + tempest and two trailblazer damage dealers like torment spamming rev or burn spamming guard. If you bring only damage dealers such a combo is unbeatable and also a mirror match will last forever due to cleanses. Their damage reduction is insane. You have to bring at least (!) one necro that does slot all corruptions he can get. I am really happy I main that class currently as I have to carry a lot of smallscale fights with corrupts at the moment.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Throw Bolas -> On my Mark! -> Sundering Leap would mean the maximum hit becomes 13,515. Cast it twice and... oh look the scrapper only has 24500 HP. So unless he definitely has protection up he's dead.

    Okay okay, but all this stuff coming together is a lot more unlikely than that the scrapper just dodges the killshot.

    Anyway the typical cheese combo in smallscale these days is scrapper + fb or scrapper + tempest and two trailblazer damage dealers like torment spamming rev or burn spamming guard. If you bring only damage dealers such a combo is unbeatable and also a mirror match will last forever due to cleanses. Their damage reduction is insane. You have to bring at least (!) one necro that does slots all corruptions he can get. I am really happy I main that class currently as I have to carry a lot of smallscale fights with corrupts at the moment.

    Throw Bolas immobilizes to prevent the dodge, but yes. I'll grant that the combat is more than just throw skills into a text box on a forum and saying 'Look he's dead'! It sounds to me like combat would then entail you attempting to bait his dodges and setting him up for the one shot, and if you fall into his rhythm of spamming random damage in hopes to overcome his sustain he won't die. This sounds fascinating, complex, and skillful if I'm being honest. Much more so than 'Lol I berserk and hit gunflame and you're dead'.

    Apparently he just needs to play a ranger instead of a berserker though. That's one shotting tanky people rumor has it.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

    nope

    That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    There's a subtle difference between stalemating through green numbers and stalemating through utilization of all defenses. A 'Tank' should be able to nullify/counter a DPS assuming both are played equally through blocks, dodges, heals, mitigation, and interrupts/CC. It's interesting and skillful in a 1v1 for it to become a game of trying to waste an opponents CDs. If a tank can nullify a DPS without having to utilize all of those against some builds, you have a meta shift. If you have multiple tanks that can nullify ALL DPS without having to utilize all of those, you have a balance problem. I think there is a trend towards the latter, but we are not there yet.

    Tank builds can be beaten by certain DPS classes, just not all DPS classes. The larger issue is usually that of mobility in combination with tankiness. Some tanks full committed to defense simply aren't killable while trying to run because of things like stealth or large quantities of leaps. Realistically, the 'no risk' a full tank build should have is that it takes a long time for it to finish a fight, which means it's vulnerable to new opponents arriving and swaying the odds. That's why despite tankiness being so obtuse glassy quick killers are still the preferred roaming class. Their target pool has just shrunk some, which I don't see an issue with.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

    nope

    That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

    no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

    I'm not though. This game has kitten single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I too miss damage. It's insane how long it takes to clear an undefended T-zero camp now.

    Damage was not the issue. Zerg meta size, AOE, and Boonspam was, where the side the bombed first won. And that balance change completely kittened all non-zerg players.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

    nope

    That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

    no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

    I'm not though. This game has kitten single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

    Stale "fights" are not healthy for the game and neither are builds with the sole purpose of stalemating encounters. The concept of a "tank" has no place in PvP game modes.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

    nope

    That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

    no one would be able to take objectives let alone even down each other in fights. what you're asking for is to replace dodge with raw heals.

    I'm not though. This game has kitten single target heal skills. You have to rely on dodges, positioning, every single utility, F skills, plus healing to stay alive. That said, if a player specs full minstrel and does all the above correctly, yes, they should be able to stay alive indefinitely against a single zerk dps.

    Stale "fights" are not healthy for the game and neither are builds with the sole purpose of stalemating encounters. The concept of a "tank" has no place in PvP game modes.

    Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @God.2708 said:
    Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

    Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

    Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

    Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • archmagus.7249archmagus.7249 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Damage should scale based on proximity and targets. Highest damage being closest and single target. This is where the game lost the plot. Melee damage that requires up close application should really pressure tank builds and require tank builds to employ dodges and such rather than just passive defenses. Ranged damage especially ranged AoE damage should take a significant hit unless it roots the caster.

    I can already see the whining and complaining all over the thief forum on how they ruined the game because they can't one-shot people from 1200 range away in stealth permanently.

  • God.2708God.2708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

    Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

    Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

    Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

    That's simply a paradigm from how you are defining tank. Can use the term support if that makes you feel more comfortable, but I don't know how you can say WvW doesn't have tanks when that's what this very topic is complaining about. If it obligates you to ignore him and target the next soft sucker, that means the 'tank' is free to fulfill whatever purpose it has set out to do, whether that be disrupt, heal, or deal (less) damage.

  • Mokk.2397Mokk.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    I would be the first to advocate that the amount of damage pre " Competitive content update " was excessive. The damage got so high that a person has absolutely no ability to respond to an attack . But when the damage and health reduction occurred some classes were already in a deficit in many ways and although the damage reduction was welcome , the ANET developers neglected to take into consideration the defensive capabilities and sustain of some classes was compatible to the High damage of before but excessive now. The Engi and the Ele fit in this category and many ways the specialization of the Druid . Also some skills managed to escape " Competitive content update " by not getting the appropriate damage downgrade as they should have . The Reverent and Reaper are prime examples with skills that did not get appropriate downgrades .
    Stability , Stealth , Condition Removal , Boon Stacking , Boon duration , Boon removal and Control effects for many classes were already on par or lacking prior to the " Competitive content update " . But went largely unnoticed because at the time these skills took a back seat to many builds because they were unnecessary or could never successfully be incorporated into a working build .
    The damage reduction was a good first start . But the developers have much more work to do . I'm willing to wait for such changes to occur as long as theirs some acknowledgement that many of the existing problems are being addressed .
    This is where most of the frustration is coming from for many people when it feels like we're all banging our heads against a wall of silence .

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @archmagus.7249 said:

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Damage should scale based on proximity and targets. Highest damage being closest and single target. This is where the game lost the plot. Melee damage that requires up close application should really pressure tank builds and require tank builds to employ dodges and such rather than just passive defenses. Ranged damage especially ranged AoE damage should take a significant hit unless it roots the caster.

    I can already see the whining and complaining all over the thief forum on how they ruined the game because they can't one-shot people from 1200 range away in stealth permanently.

    You've posted in the thief forum before haven't you? So you know that's not what would happen, kind of makes you look sad. Also, if you're talking about Rifle, you know that's not going to one shot anyone but the same kind of build that's trying to one shot. Death's Judgement might be the most obvious skill and it can't happen while still in stealth plus it should only connect on you when you're distracted in a blob and then it doesn't even matter. You'll have to worry about stuff like Binding Shadow from range but mostly you should worry about up close.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    Concept of a tank has plenty of place in a PvP game mode, especially one relating to large scale encounters.

    Except a tank is useless in GW2 and in particular in WvW.

    Tanks in PvE tank by holding aggro. Doesn't work in WvW because when I see I can't get real damage thru, I ignore you and target the next softer sucker.

    Tanks per the classic D&D trope don't happen in WvW because there is no collision detection. You can not make a line to hold with tanks. You hold the line by making RED CIRCLES OF DEATH THE ENEMY CAN NOT CROSS. And in this meta, you do that with Firebrands and Scourges.

    Guild Wars 1 had a very different tank philosophy in PvP, which was this: you're the up-close damage dealer that's easier to contain than they are to bring down. That meant a Warrior could pressure the enemy team, and they'd die if they ignored him, but just bursting a Warrior while all his supports were still in place was a pretty weak move. So optimal play often involved applying enough defenses and soft CC to reduce their DPS while you tried to save your burst, hard CC, and Enchantment (that's basically Boons) removal for a softer target. It made for an interesting flow.

    You can't quite do that in GW2 but I do think Bubble Spellbreakers in large-scale and tanky disruption-heavy builds like Condi Rev in small-scale do kinda come close.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All I have to say to the wvw community still here,

    You people asked for this, now lay in the bed you made.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    All I have to say to the wvw community still here,

    You people asked for this, now lay in the bed you made.

    I didn't ask for this kitten.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • the main problem with the overall damage reduction is, battles often take a bit long. on hard largescale battles, sides can respawn quick due to the warkittens, and sometimes the zergs just do the "starring each other warrantly" things for a bit long time.

    damage still exists, we shouldn't care about 1v1 damage tho. there's a ton of builds that does way too much damage even to ascended minstrels in smallscale. that cheap bursting is rather getting too much damage, while slow damage like rev hammer 5 got major hits.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    That said, a full spec healer should be able to heal an amount equal to a single full spec dps.

    nope

    That's what balance is. Single target hps should equal single target dps. I get that most people don't actually want balance. They think that zerk dps should insta-kill everything in the game. But that isn't balance.

    We already have it.... theres quite some skills that heal a big part of the health(heal equal as a personal healing skill), people just dont use them cause then cant be spammed aoe permanently.....nor overstack them.

    IMO part of the tankiness blob issue is the minstrell stats need to loose some tankiness and/or a chenge on how boon stacking works needs to happen.

    Slayers [XD] NSP Guild
    Yao Chen Herald/Ventari
    Ying Wuxian Renegade/Demon

  • Killing players is still easy, but the ways of distributing damage efficiently has significantly changed.

    Its like you are trying to run with almost everything in complete opposition of the current game meta key points, and that's going to suck. It shouldn't really come as a big surprise that it will be terribly inefficient and bad. Have you been away from the game for a long time perhaps? Have u read the balance patch notes this year at all?

    There's always gonna be a few players running highly specialized builds that seem untouchable.. but they have always been there no matter what the current meta's are.

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    [Respect Ur Opponents, We All Provide Eachothers Fun]
    Blackgate Since Season 1

  • This is also coming from a guy that wants the most defensive sustain traits and doing high dmg while using karka potion. Nice rant here.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    "WvW lacks damage after the nerfs"

    " Is this really how we're gunna play gw2 now?"

    "And trust me there comes a point when even the mega blobbers are gunna sit in discord together and think thier amazing bc thier unkillable and be like this games too ez"

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1340043#Comment_1340043
    -yeah was testing build with 3.2k toughness which should be around 4k armor

    "But for a fully decked out zerker to get no where literally against a tanky dude thats literally by himself???"

    Dear OP...let's stop with the falsehood claims.....there is no damage in wvw atm? Are you kidding me? Just check the damage of the renegage shortbow bow.....check the screenshot in my linked comment......2shotted by a thief while I was using 4k armor build+ protection...the build was unusable, useless but made it to prove my point about these kind of threads that pop out from time to time.

    There is plenty of damage already and the sustain got nerfed by a lot since Feb....Learn to gear up properly and to actually read what the opponent is using...and check if you have weakness on you or blind

    If you keep claiming otherwise, I want to see a video of your "full zerk build" being unable to do damage to a tanky target...I dare you

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @God.2708 said:
    7,727 damage minimum. 9,444 damage maximum. Whilst still holding to easy realistic conditions.

    This brings the bunker scrapper from 100 to 70% health, like he said. :p

    Pretty poor for such a warrior build, don't you think? Maybe he exaggerated with his 2k example, but in general he is right.

    Side note: You forgot the damage reduction food in your calculation.

    Side note 2: Before anyone here comes to the wrong conclusion from that example: the problem is not that warrior deals not enough damage (the damage is fine!), but that bunker builds are too strong (too many defensive boons!).

    BOONS don't make your build super tanky

    Class mechanics like : barrier spam, evasion, huge HP bar...those make your build super tanky, it's BS to claim that having protection even if "perma" will somehow turn you into a super tanky spec

    Just check how barrier keeps these players alive

    Neither protection or regen even if perma will keep you alive against huge burst

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    Let's stop blaming stats for the tankiness of some specs , that tankiness comes from the class mechanic for at least 80%

    The most tanky specs in WvW don't rely on boons at all....folks should stop spreading lies about boons being the main culprit

    Wake Up Devs! Don't be fooled" PLAY YOUR OWN GAME BEFORE MAKING HASTY DECISIONS

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Boons have always been the real power creep and they will never understand it. Back then it took guards fire field blasts to keep up the 25 might stacks now classes are able to sustain 25 might stacks with no problem.

  • Supreme.3164Supreme.3164 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    Boons have always been the real power creep and they will never understand it. Back then it took guards fire field blasts to keep up the 25 might stacks now classes are able to sustain 25 might stacks with no problem.

    Boon uptime was increased to makeup for the deficiencies with some professions compared to others, not everybody has access to 18k or 15k base HP or inbuilt defensive mechanics like stealth, clones and shroud

    Boons can be stolen/corrupted/removed very easily.......calling for a curb on boons while playing a class that doesn't specifically rely on them....it's at best...hypocritical

    Professions like : ranger, ele, revenant, engineer...would become close to unplayable without the great boon uptime they currently enjoy

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    Last I checked, WvW is not a 1on1 game mode (without getting into any of the details of how damage stacking works and the fact that support scrapper certainly is not immortal least he is engaged by a competent player).

    There is 1 essential difference between tank and damage specs:
    damage can scale indefinitely until it succeed. Support/healing/tank can not. That's with the power of scale. You can only heal or out tank damage until you hit 0 hit points and most of the time this is not stack-able (with barrier being an exception). You can stack mitigation, but even that is capped via boons and class mechanics. More players can only re-actively increase survival, which again is limited to the targets hit point pool buying more time as a function of damage/second taken versus healing/second received.

    Damage on the other hand is not capped. It can be stacked until a spike instant downs a player at which point all healing and tank become meaningless and resurrect mechanics take over, which again are limited.

    The entire argument that stalemates in 1v1s are unhealthy is from players who prefer small scale without actually taking the big picture into account: this game mode is not about your roaming 1v1s and as such the argument is moot on this level. It is far more relevant for Spvp.

    That's why balance for WvW requires a very different approach than for say Spvp.

    The ONLY issue are tank specs which scale indefinitely against an unlimited number of opponents via mostly class mechanics like perma dodges, perma blocks, insane uptime on abilities which make the player immune or negate all damage. The developers have been addressing some of these in the past (see Warrior survival nerf, see Mirage nerf, etc.).

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @Straegen.2938 said:
    Damage should scale based on proximity and targets. Highest damage being closest and single target. This is where the game lost the plot. Melee damage that requires up close application should really pressure tank builds and require tank builds to employ dodges and such rather than just passive defenses. Ranged damage especially ranged AoE damage should take a significant hit unless it roots the caster.

    This would be an interesting change for the AoE condi spam that currently occurs a lot in fights between zergs. Why anybody thought having many AoE condi damage sources would make for fun gameplay is beyond me. All I see from many gigantic guild blobs to deal damage is launches/knockback + AoE condi spam.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    I can still +1 shot on Mesmer Profession and Thief Profession players in the server was +1 shotting enemy players non stop-as the usual.

    For the past 8 years, there has not been any effort to decrease damage, +1 shot, Toxic mechanics, absolutely nothing. All those so called 'nerf damages patches' are all illusions. Why? Than why are we still having to deal with them again and again for the past 8 years? If there were Truths to fix damages with Toxic balancing...we wouldn't be having to deal with them repeatedly for the past 8 years? Correct? but it is not.

    'Within the illusions hide real illusions... from the real illusions, the illusions are created. Within the truth hides the lie... within the lie hides the truth'

    Players and Guilds left because of the Whole Truth

    (here is a secret-- many old-past months/years 'Nerf damage' broken builds are still functionable. In fact, many 'top' players are running old builds that were supposedly nerfed much better than ever including myself)

    Damage Nerf, +1 shot nerf, Stealth nerf, aoe nerf, Profession nerf etc... are all Marketing

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    The entire argument that stalemates in 1v1s are unhealthy is from players who prefer small scale without actually taking the big picture into account: this game mode is not about your roaming 1v1s and as such the argument is moot on this level. It is far more relevant for Spvp.

    The gamemode isn't only about zerging either, whether players like it or not. It is designed for a multitude of playstyles and as such all of them should be considered balance wise (which of course is very hard in practise, but still ...). The whole "it is ok if it can be beaten by numbers" argument also leads to an unhealthy game, because numbers are rarely even and if the smaller side can't fight back (even if they are better players), then they might as well not play at all/stack on "better" servers (which already happens way too much).

    Sure, I didn't say that balance should not be aimed at being healthy for multiple group sizes. Only in this case, with the limitations in place, it is hardly something one can cry about when 1v1 or has discrepancies. There is a game mode for 1v1 and small fights: it's called Spvp. As far as small scale, there is hardly any build which can tank 2 or 3 competent players besides maybe a thief who is adept at avoiding and stealthing out of all damage.

    That is without getting into any arguments about amount of players which play this mode. I'm sure the vast majority of squad only players, which I would believe make up the significant part of the player base, could care less if roaming was removed from the mode. Players who play multiple aspects of this mode understand the limitations of balance I would assume.

    The argument presented by me was not purely "it is beaten by numbers". I explained in detail how tank and damage are affected in different ways by number of players, in short: tankiness scales differently and worse as player count goes up. I did so to signal how arguing about something being to tanky in small scale is contra-productive to this game modes main goal, except if this tankiness is achieved via scale ignoring mechanics, which in turn has a huge amount of issues by its own.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    SPvP isn't more about 1vs1 than WvW, in fact the chances for an actual "duel" are even lower. And ofc there are a lot more zerglings than roamers/small scalers, and the devs keep catering to the former since years. Has it improved health and popularity of the game mode? Does not look like it, despite massive increase in rewards.

    Also the issue with tankyness/boon spam isn't just about small scale. Stacking dmg and "spiking down" a target actually works much better in small scale, but is nearly impossible if 50 players are stacked on top of each other due to the huge dmg mitigation provided by aoe caps in addition to all those boons, healing and cleanses flying arround, and even if a players goes down the ability to basically insta rezz makes finishing one off a losing game.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    SPvP isn't more about 1vs1 than WvW, in fact the chances for an actual "duel" are even lower. And ofc there are a lot more zerglings than roamers/small scalers, and the devs keep catering to the former since years. Has it improved health and popularity of the game mode? Does not look like it, despite massive increase in rewards.

    So we agree, the vast majority of players are not roamers, as such balancing the game around that aspect makes the most sense IF player count is of significance.

    Please don't use that nonsese argument "oh but we've had this XYZ and what good has it done?". You should know fully well that the issues with WvW are by far more related to other things like lack of attention, new content, etc. than not balancing around roaming.

    Unless you want to make an argument that focusing on roaming for this mode would increase player count. Which I look forward to hearing.

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    Also the issue with tankyness/boon spam isn't just about small scale. Stacking dmg and "spiking down" a target actually works much better in small scale, but is nearly impossible if 50 players are stacked on top of each other due to the huge dmg mitigation provided by aoe caps in addition to all those boons, healing and cleanses flying arround, and even if a players goes down the ability to basically insta rezz makes finishing one off a losing game.

    If you haven't been able to spike down parts of a similar sized blob, you need better players. That counts for all parts of the fight be it the initial rev ranged pokes, or the mid range wells, or the melee engage.

    Sure, if the enemy is outnumbering you by 20-30% or more, it will be harder (not impossible as is evidenced by top tier guild groups on border, I guarantee you a full group of say Lays or Kill, even with 30% less players, will create downs in their first bomb).

    One could prove this mathematically by simply looking at the amount of modifiers available for damage versus damage reduction, then adding in the delay in support which happens by simple reasoning that support happens after damage is done (unless you use cooldowns preemptively, which will put you at a disadvantage later in the fight depending on how much earlier you used them) but who has the time for something like this when it is visible every single day in this mode?

    As far as this happening in roaming more, that depends entirely on the roaming build doesn't it and the number advantage or not?

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    top tier guild groups ...

    I'll have to build a time machine to go find top tier guild groups.

    Now, if I want to watch mediocre guilds with plenty of players who got farmed by TA, LaG, etc back in the day, roleplay at being "top tier" against zergs that are largely not even mediocre (even for zergs), then 2020 is primetime.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    SPvP isn't more about 1vs1 than WvW, in fact the chances for an actual "duel" are even lower. And ofc there are a lot more zerglings than roamers/small scalers, and the devs keep catering to the former since years. Has it improved health and popularity of the game mode? Does not look like it, despite massive increase in rewards.

    So we agree, the vast majority of players are not roamers, as such balancing the game around that aspect makes the most sense IF player count is of significance.

    Please don't use that nonsese argument "oh but we've had this XYZ and what good has it done?". You should know fully well that the issues with WvW are by far more related to other things like lack of attention, new content, etc. than not balancing around roaming.

    Unless you want to make an argument that focusing on roaming for this mode would increase player count. Which I look forward to hearing.

    Balancing for the majority isn't always the best way to go. Whether this is true for WvW - i don't know. But the biggest decline in active WvW population probably happened after HoT - when we got a lot of new things in the first time since years - and terrible balance, especially for small scale. Players kept playing for years with no new content and non existent rewards, simply because they enjoyed the combat. Unlike PvE, PvP combat is "infinite content" by itself, as encounters against other players are never exactly the same and new content can actually do more harm than good, if it hurts the core of the game mode (desert border was/is a good example). And while i can't speak for everyone ofc, in those cases where i know the reason for leaving the game - it was all about bad balance and resulting unfun combat.

    Nowadays it might be different, because a lot more players seem to be here only for easy rewards and not for actual WvW, and as such a lot more "carrots" are needed to keep them playing. Would balancing arround roaming increase the player count? Probably not, for exactly this reason. Would it harm?
    It is not like balance for zerging and roaming are mutually exclusive, as often different builds/skills are used and as such adjustments can be made without affecting other playstyles.

    Regarding the rest of your post - maybe you are right and boons and tankyness are not an issue in zergs. I can't judge as i tend to avoid these kind of fights. But if i see blobs with permanent uptime of almost every boon in the game i have a very hard time calling it balanced, especially when considering how hard corrupts got nerfed and how easy the remaining boon strips are to avoid.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    top tier guild groups ...

    I'll have to build a time machine to go find top tier guild groups.

    Now if I want to watch mediocre guilds with plenty of players who got farmed by TA, LaG, etc back in the day, roleplay at being "good" against zergs that are largely not even mediocre (even for zergs), then 2020 is primetime.

    I was talking relative. Sure, you can argue that the overall performance has changed or even decreased. As have approaches to mitigate this by groups, which is in part seen in the mass migrations of players we see now, because some players feel they need to stack due to the overall quality of players dropping (somethig I personally disagree with but fully understand).

    Given this is about today's state of game, I am unsure what your comment is supposed to accomplish except for dissing the entire current WvW community. Says a lot more about you though doesn't it?

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    SPvP isn't more about 1vs1 than WvW, in fact the chances for an actual "duel" are even lower. And ofc there are a lot more zerglings than roamers/small scalers, and the devs keep catering to the former since years. Has it improved health and popularity of the game mode? Does not look like it, despite massive increase in rewards.

    So we agree, the vast majority of players are not roamers, as such balancing the game around that aspect makes the most sense IF player count is of significance.

    Please don't use that nonsese argument "oh but we've had this XYZ and what good has it done?". You should know fully well that the issues with WvW are by far more related to other things like lack of attention, new content, etc. than not balancing around roaming.

    Unless you want to make an argument that focusing on roaming for this mode would increase player count. Which I look forward to hearing.

    Balancing for the majority isn't always the best way to go. Whether this is true for WvW - i don't know. But the biggest decline in active WvW population probably happened after HoT - when we got a lot of new things in the first time since years - and terrible balance, especially for small scale. Players kept playing for years with no new content and non existent rewards, simply because they enjoyed the combat. Unlike PvE, PvP combat is "infinite content" by itself, as encounters against other players are never exactly the same and new content can actually do more harm than good, if it hurts the core of the game mode (desert border was/is a good example). And while i can't speak for everyone ofc, in those cases where i know the reason for leaving the game - it was all about bad balance and resulting unfun combat.

    Sure, that went hand in hand with the overall population decline with HoT.

    Also no, PvP combat is not infinite combat no matter how much players who pvp want to believe that. There is a reason why changes to meta and classes happen in the most popular pvp games, most of which are not MMOs btw. Combat can grow stale. Now I will agree that pvp combat and content is often longer lived than pve content IF made well, but even in pvp scenarios variety has to happen to keep players engaged.

    Balancing for the majority is always the best approach IF appeasing the majority of players is the goal. If this is achieved or how successful that balance may be, that is a different issue. Unless the developers want to take a huge risk and balance according to what they believe will bring a different set of players to the mode in greater numbers, while retaining some of the original players. Remember, balancing around something does not mean that the balance changes actually succeed at what they are intended for.

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    Nowadays it might be different, because a lot more players seem to be here only for easy rewards and not for actual WvW, and as such a lot more "carrots" are needed to keep them playing. Would balancing arround roaming increase the player count? Probably not, for exactly this reason. Would it harm?

    If balancing around roaming directly affects big scale fights in a negative way, yes it likely would be harmful to the mode. The reason why balancing around roaming or 1v1 makes no sense is simple: the current map design doesn't even give enough room for enough roamers or small scale groups to operate. That is unless you consider the popular "we are more then them" roamer groups actual roaming. Every time I see 3 "roamers" gang up on 1 target, all I can think of is:"oh another gank squad", because that's what they are: gankers, not roamers.

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    It is not like balance for zerging and roaming are mutually exclusive, as often different builds/skills are used and as such adjustments can be made without affecting other playstyles.

    No, it is not exclusive. I explained why in relation to tanking mechanics, which is often built around maximum survival gear and support output, fits into this issue.

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    Regarding the rest of your post - maybe you are right and boons and tankyness are not an issue in zergs. I can't judge as i tend to avoid these kind of fights. But if i see blobs with permanent uptime of almost every boon in the game i have a very hard time calling it balanced, especially when considering how hard corrupts got nerfed and how easy the remaining boon strips are to avoid.

    Which is at the core of this issue tbh. Corrupts having been nerfed has hit small scale far harder than large fights, unless there are no warriors or scourges around. It does make picking off squad players a lot harder once they are balled up and poking down a player from out of squad is harder.

    Then again if roamers actually built around boon denial this issue would be somewhat mitigated. That heal scrapper from TCs opening example would hardly have survived with some boon rip on him.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    If balancing around roaming directly affects big scale fights in a negative way, yes it likely would be harmful to the mode. The reason why balancing around roaming or 1v1 makes no sense is simple: the current map design doesn't even give enough room for enough roamers or small scale groups to operate. That is unless you consider the popular "we are more then them" roamer groups actual roaming. Every time I see 3 "roamers" gang up on 1 target, all I can think of is:"oh another gank squad", because that's what they are: gankers, not roamers.

    Not enough room? Entire servers choke when a single 5 man group is running around off prime capping everything.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"