Balance Suggestions - Revenant — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Balance Suggestions - Revenant

Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 16, 2020 in PVP

Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.

General

Healing orbs replaced with a pulsing heal over time around the Revenant. If a tablet is active, the healing will also take place around the tablet. Heals do not stack.

Healing orbs are a poor mechanic in practice. Changing the mechanic to give better control to the revenant. Orbs were difficult to see in the middle of combat.

Shortbow

Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

Bugfix. Seven shot currently goes on full cooldown when losing line of sight of it's target before finishing the cast.

Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

Reducing clunkiness while lowering the damage to prevent this skill from becoming too oppresive.

Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

Solving the real problem with this skill. The animation is too subtle for how powerful the effect is. Giving players a better opportunity to play around it.

Staff

Renewing wave - Functionality change: Healing pulses longer for each condition cleansed.

Tweaking this skill to work with the new healing mechanic while keeping the gameplay intact. This skill will still grant more value when conditions are cleansed by its effect.

Surge of the Mists - Evade decreased to .75 seconds. Self root removed. Damage coefficent increases by 0.05 for each hit that connects. (Total 2.25 if all hits connect)

Reducing clunkiness while adding back the skill expression of the skill. Rewarding players that manage to land all nine hits. The skill is now vulnerable for half of the warmup frames, adding counterplay.

Sword

Unrelenting Assault - Latch Range increased to 900.

This skill still requires that you be within 600 range to activate. However, it will no longer fizzle unless the target travels >900 range away or enters stealth.

Deathstrike- This skill can no longer be activated without a target.

Cleaning up the gameplay.

Hammer

Drop The Hammer - Knockdown increased to 3 seconds.

A 1.75 second cast is among the longest in the game. Increasing the stun duration so that the reward is appropriate to the amount of risk.

Comments

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    All herald build including condi are totally balanced right now . Is Renegade bad design wich needs a rework

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    I like all the changes except for Unrelenting Assault. That skill is already the most braindead, useful-in-every-situation, barely counterplayable skill in the game.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.

    General

    Healing orbs replaced with a pulsing heal over time around the Revenant. If a tablet is active, the healing will also take place around the tablet. Heals do not stack.

    For me healing orbs are already a nice mechanic. The only problem is they don't last long enough (2-3 secs) and only renegade/kalla can have constant access to it.

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Shortbow

    Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

    Bugfix. Seven shot currently goes on full cooldown when losing line of sight of it's target before finishing the cast.

    No. Stop with the game assistance. What's next? Infused Light is reset if the damage you took during those 3 secs is not enough? It's the player's responsibility to anticipate the LoS, not the game. Same thing with that phase traversal buff.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

    Reducing clunkiness while lowering the damage to prevent this skill from becoming too oppresive.

    This should have been added since HoT. Idk why damage should be reduced for a feature that should have been there since day 1. Either all ranged skills can be cast from behind either none of them can, unless some special traits.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.
    Renewing wave - Functionality change: Healing pulses longer for each condition cleansed.

    Tweaking this skill to work with the new healing mechanic while keeping the gameplay intact. This skill will still grant more value when conditions are cleansed by its effect.

    Rev is supposed to be weak to conditions. If you start "nerfing" that weakness you create a broken class. Besides, most revs builds don't take the support traitlines nor traits so it's almost like thieves complaining about their damage while they don't take any damaging traitline.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Surge of the Mists - Evade decreased to .75 seconds. Self root removed. Damage coefficent increases by 0.05 for each hit that connects. (Total 2.25 if all hits connect)

    I don't know where how you get your 2.25 modifier, I've found 0.45. But yeah the idea is great.

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Sword

    Unrelenting Assault - Latch Range increased to 1200.

    This skill still requires that you be within 600 range to activate. However, it will no longer fizzle unless the target travels >1200 range away or enters stealth.

    Deathstrike- This skill can no longer be activated without a target.

    Cleaning up the gameplay.

    I think Unrelenting Assault is already good as it is right now. It just needs its 2015 bug fixed.
    AFAIK Deathstrike requires a target. Maybe you meant a pathfinder check like phase traversal? In that case no. Again, it's not the game's responsibility to check the "doability" of a skill.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    AFAIK Deathstrike requires a target. Maybe you meant a pathfinder check like phase traversal? In that case no. Again, it's not the game's responsibility to check the "doability" of a skill.

    Atm yu can accidentally press Deathstrike and it will still go off, just a little awkward fart and Deathstrike second hit being cast on the spot.

    @OP :

    Honestly trying to balance Renegade is a whole lotta mess to begin with.

    Renegade is just such an insanely oppressive point controller which is braindead click and drop on point, and suddenly yur team automatically wins teamfights because there is no way the enemy can fight the unique effects of the summons without trying to waste CC on them or kill them.

    Knowing Anet all they gonna do is just slap more Energy cost on the skills.

    As for Shortbow :
    I'm sick and tired of SB and Hammer's all-offense long cooldown 5 slot weapons which are getting slapped every other patched because they get qq'd on.

    No I'm not upset that they are getting nerfed, I'm upset that they are just so simply designed, with no depth.

    Both of these weapons are literally "press 2,3,4,5 then back to autos" sort of design which when nerfed, ends up being "okay now we gotta press one button less, then back to autos"

    At least Hammer has some strategic usage of 3 and 4, SB is just so dumb.

    Everything about Renegade is just so dumbed down where yu can literally faceroll and get value.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    Shortbow

    Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

    No. Stop with the game assistance. What's next? Infused Light is reset if the damage you took during those 3 secs is not enough? It's the player's responsibility to anticipate the LoS, not the game. Same thing with that phase traversal buff.

    Sevenshot is bugged. Not only does it go on full cd when canceled. If you attempt to cast it without line of sight, it does not behave like other skills and give a "No line of Sight" error. Instead it does nothng and (not even an animation) goes on interrupt cooldown. It seems like when Anet redesigned this skill, someone flubbed up the code and the skill is exibiting all sorts of unintended behavoirs.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

    This should have been added since HoT. Idk why damage should be reduced for a feature that should have been there since day 1. Either all ranged skills can be cast from behind either none of them can, unless some special traits.

    It would be quite a large buff to Renegade to make this change, even if it realistically should have always been this way. My goal here isn't to buff Renegade. My goal is to reduce clunkiness, hence the damage nerf to compensate.

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    I agree, but aparently Anet saw fit to nerf this skill. Asuming I had to nerf it in some way, I would make it slightly more reactable. While giving it an increase in breakbar damage in PvE to make the cast time nerf worthwhile. An 18 second cooldown is a bit excessive for a skill that already comes with a hefty energy cost.

    Rev is supposed to be weak to conditions. If you start "nerfing" that weakness you create a broken class. Besides, most revs builds don't take the support traitlines nor traits so it's almost like thieves complaining about their damage while they don't take any damaging traitline.

    My change would not affect Rev's vulnerability to conditions in any way. Renewing wave currently cleanses 2 conditions and spawns a healing orb for each ally cleansed.
    Healing orbs are replaced with the pulsing heal effect. No additional condis are cleansed.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Surge of the Mists - Evade decreased to .75 seconds. Self root removed. Damage coefficent increases by 0.05 for each hit that connects. (Total 2.25 if all hits connect)

    I don't know where how you get your 2.25 modifier, I've found 0.45. But yeah the idea is great.

    Math here is a bit weird but the coefficient would increase by 0.05 for each consecutive hit. So the coefficients of each individual hit would look like this:

    1 - 0.001 | 2 - 0.05 | 3 - 0.1 | 4 - 0.15 | 5 - 0.2 | 6 - 0.25 | 7 - 0.3 | 8 - 0.35 | 9 - 0.4

    As it turns out, my math was off and I added one too many hits. I mistakenly added a 10th hit with a .45 coefficient for a total of 2.25 instead of the correct value of 1.8.

    I'm not sure if Anet could code this in with the game's current engine but it would be a change that rewards skillful play.

    I think Unrelenting Assault is already good as it is right now. It just needs its 2015 bug fixed.

    Is this the bug where it will fizzle if quickness is gained or lost during the wind up?

    AFAIK Deathstrike requires a target. Maybe you meant a pathfinder check like phase traversal? In that case no. Again, it's not the game's responsibility to check the "doability" of a skill.

    It currently does not require a target. If cast without a target the skill plays out the animation but does nothing. Changing it to behave like phase traversal. Purely a QoL change.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.

    General

    Healing orbs replaced with a pulsing heal over time around the Revenant. If a tablet is active, the healing will also take place around the tablet. Heals do not stack.

    Healing orbs are a poor mechanic in practice. Changing the mechanic to give better control to the revenant. Orbs were difficult to see in the middle of combat.

    Shortbow

    Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

    Bugfix. Seven shot currently goes on full cooldown when losing line of sight of it's target before finishing the cast.

    Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

    Reducing clunkiness while lowering the damage to prevent this skill from becoming too oppresive.

    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    Solving the real problem with this skill. The animation is too subtle for how powerful the effect is. Giving players a better opportunity to play around it.

    Staff

    Renewing wave - Functionality change: Healing pulses longer for each condition cleansed.

    Tweaking this skill to work with the new healing mechanic while keeping the gameplay intact. This skill will still grant more value when conditions are cleansed by its effect.

    Surge of the Mists - Evade decreased to .75 seconds. Self root removed. Damage coefficent increases by 0.05 for each hit that connects. (Total 2.25 if all hits connect)

    Reducing clunkiness while adding back the skill expression of the skill. Rewarding players that manage to land all nine hits. The skill is now vulnerable for half of the warmup frames, adding counterplay.

    Sword

    Unrelenting Assault - Latch Range increased to 1200.

    This skill still requires that you be within 600 range to activate. However, it will no longer fizzle unless the target travels >1200 range away or enters stealth.

    Deathstrike- This skill can no longer be activated without a target.

    Cleaning up the gameplay.

    Hammer

    Drop The Hammer - Knockdown increased to 3 seconds.

    A 1.75 second cast is among the longest in the game. Increasing the stun duration so that the reward is appropriate to the amount of risk.

    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Staff 5 and sword 3 changes are bad, rest are okay.

    Sword 3 would give a ton of sticking power.
    Staff is a defensive weapon and staff 5 is a very important defensive cooldown.

  • @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.

    General

    Healing orbs replaced with a pulsing heal over time around the Revenant. If a tablet is active, the healing will also take place around the tablet. Heals do not stack.

    For me healing orbs are already a nice mechanic. The only problem is they don't last long enough (2-3 secs) and only renegade/kalla can have constant access to it.

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Shortbow

    Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

    Bugfix. Seven shot currently goes on full cooldown when losing line of sight of it's target before finishing the cast.

    No. Stop with the game assistance. What's next? Infused Light is reset if the damage you took during those 3 secs is not enough? It's the player's responsibility to anticipate the LoS, not the game. Same thing with that phase traversal buff.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

    Reducing clunkiness while lowering the damage to prevent this skill from becoming too oppresive.

    This should have been added since HoT. Idk why damage should be reduced for a feature that should have been there since day 1. Either all ranged skills can be cast from behind either none of them can, unless some special traits.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    Point-Blank Shot has a very clear animation, as long as you're paying attention, and is very much dodge-able even outside anticipation. Agree 1s is too long of a cast time.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    Ah yes, the instant 0.75s casttime deflecting shot that has to be manually aimed and moves incredible slow, very op

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agree with most of the changes, but the stun increase on hammer couldn't be that long if increased. Yea, it does have a long cast, but when you can do it at 1,200 range, that is offset by a decent bit. Hammer could benefit with some love for sPvP though.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Goals: Reduce clunkiness, fix buggy interactions, and add additional counterplay and/or reward where appropriate.

    General

    Healing orbs replaced with a pulsing heal over time around the Revenant. If a tablet is active, the healing will also take place around the tablet. Heals do not stack.

    For me healing orbs are already a nice mechanic. The only problem is they don't last long enough (2-3 secs) and only renegade/kalla can have constant access to it.

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Shortbow

    Sevenshot - This skill now goes on inturrupt cooldown when line of sight is lost rather than full cooldown.

    Bugfix. Seven shot currently goes on full cooldown when losing line of sight of it's target before finishing the cast.

    No. Stop with the game assistance. What's next? Infused Light is reset if the damage you took during those 3 secs is not enough? It's the player's responsibility to anticipate the LoS, not the game. Same thing with that phase traversal buff.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Spirit Crush - Damage reduced by 30%. Can now be cast behind the player

    Reducing clunkiness while lowering the damage to prevent this skill from becoming too oppresive.

    This should have been added since HoT. Idk why damage should be reduced for a feature that should have been there since day 1. Either all ranged skills can be cast from behind either none of them can, unless some special traits.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    Point-Blank Shot has a very clear animation, as long as you're paying attention, and is very much dodge-able even outside anticipation. Agree 1s is too long of a cast time.

    The point of having an animation is to not having to pay attention. The moment you start paying attention, it's not an animation anymore. It's a detail.

  • Eugchriss.2046Eugchriss.2046 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tharan.9085 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Scorchrazer - Cast time increased to 1 second. Warm up effect added for better visual clarity. Cooldown reverted to 12 seconds. Knockdown increased to 3 seconds (In PvE only).

    1 second cast time on a spec with the worst break stun in the game. Meanwhile, you have deflecting shot and point-blank shot which are almost instant. The latter doesn't even have an animation.
    How is a slow red wave coming into your face not clear enough?

    Ah yes, the instant 0.75s casttime deflecting shot that has to be manually aimed and moves incredible slow, very op

    Who said that it was very OP? Just pointing out other skills that basically behave the same but yet have different treatments.
    And manually aimed doesn't necessarily mean "bad thing" like you are trying to make it sound. Manually aim usually come with cast behind the back.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    Who said that it was very OP? Just pointing out other skills that basically behave the same but yet have different treatments.
    And manually aimed doesn't necessarily mean "bad thing" like you are trying to make it sound. Manually aim usually come with cast behind the back.

    What's the point of casting behind back when yu have to stop to channel it tho.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

  • Tharan.9085Tharan.9085 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:

    Who said that it was very OP? Just pointing out other skills that basically behave the same but yet have different treatments.
    And manually aimed doesn't necessarily mean "bad thing" like you are trying to make it sound. Manually aim usually come with cast behind the back.

    What's the point of casting behind back when yu have to stop to channel it tho.

    You dont have to stop to channel it tho

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

  • felix.2386felix.2386 Member ✭✭✭

    i like spiritcrush right now, you can easily about face and cast and turn back, the cast time and after cast is incredibly small
    don't want it to be less skill demanding.

    warrior has been unplayable in pvp
    for 6 months till now

    good job balance team

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

    whats so buggy about it? enemy leaves its cast range and it does nothing. many skills do that.
    and since the skill itself is OP as kitten already it needs no buffs in the first place

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

    whats so buggy about it? enemy leaves its cast range and it does nothing. many skills do that.
    and since the skill itself is OP as kitten already it needs no buffs in the first place

    Any other targeted port if cast within range will port you to your target or, if the target moves out of range, it will port you closer to your target. Unrelenting Assault is the only port which exhibits this behavior where it frequently fizzle out. Not even smoke assault has this issue. `

    Moreover, this skill is prone to fizzling even when the opponent is within range, but when it chooses to do so can seem arbitrary at times. I've noticed it most when attempting to hit someone who is on slightly uneven ground.

    If you read the goal of this thread, the point is not explicitly buffs, but rather fixing clunky or buggy behavior. It is within reason for a player to expect their skill to behave as expected under normal circumstances.

    In this instance, you cast Unrelenting Assault at near max range. You attempt to evade a skill during the windup, moving your character ever so slightly out of that 600 unit distance. Your skill appears to bug out and plays out the animation while hitting nothing.

    By buffing the latch range to 900 (even 750 would be a reasonable buffer) it gives the player room to kite around the opponents abilities without their skill fizzling, removing unnecessary clunk.

    Naturally, this does end up buffing the skill, but that is the case, you can offset the buff in other ways, such as reducing the might duration from 3 seconds to 1 in PvP, reducing the coefficient, ect.

    I understand bias against Rev given their near-permanent status in the meta, but assuming the skill behaves this way by design, balancing a skill through clunky, unintuitive behavior is not good design in my opinion.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

    whats so buggy about it? enemy leaves its cast range and it does nothing. many skills do that.
    and since the skill itself is OP as kitten already it needs no buffs in the first place

    Any other targeted port if cast within range will port you to your target or, if the target moves out of range, it will port you closer to your target. Unrelenting Assault is the only port which exhibits this behavior where it frequently fizzle out. Not even smoke assault has this issue. `

    Moreover, this skill is prone to fizzling even when the opponent is within range, but when it chooses to do so can seem arbitrary at times. I've noticed it most when attempting to hit someone who is on slightly uneven ground.

    If you read the goal of this thread, the point is not explicitly buffs, but rather fixing clunky or buggy behavior. It is within reason for a player to expect their skill to behave as expected under normal circumstances.

    In this instance, you cast Unrelenting Assault at near max range. You attempt to evade a skill during the windup, moving your character ever so slightly out of that 600 unit distance. Your skill appears to bug out and plays out the animation while hitting nothing.

    By buffing the latch range to 900 it gives the player room to kite around the opponents abilities without their skill fizzling, removing unnecessary clunk.

    Naturally, this does end up buffing the skill, but that is the case, you can offset the buff in other ways, such as reducing the might duration from 3 seconds to 1 in PvP, reducing the coefficient, ect.

    I understand bias against Rev given their near-permanent status in the meta, but assuming the skill behaves this way by design, balancing a skill through clunky, unintuitive behavior is not good design in my opinion.

    bear with me for a sec, but I thought you can cast unerelenting while moving? whats stops you from moving towards the target? if enemy leaves your range thats on you for not stowing the skill or not staying in range for its entire animation.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    bear with me for a sec, but I thought you can cast unerelenting while moving? whats stops you from moving towards the target? if enemy leaves your range thats on you for not stowing the skill or not staying in range for its entire animation.

    I already answered this within my reply.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    Imo, Revenant only needs four design fixes:
    The shortbow AoE being cast-able in 360° around me.
    The Renegade stun break not being ground-targetted, but instantly popping on my position.
    Surge of The Mists needs to lose that garbage wind-up.
    Coalescence of Ruin needs to be enemy-targetted again.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Hammer

    Drop The Hammer - Knockdown increased to 3 seconds.

    A 1.75 second cast is among the longest in the game. Increasing the stun duration so that the reward is appropriate to the amount of risk.

    Why? Still will remain useless. Hammer just need to be replaced.

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    Hammer

    Drop The Hammer - Knockdown increased to 3 seconds.

    A 1.75 second cast is among the longest in the game. Increasing the stun duration so that the reward is appropriate to the amount of risk.

    Why? Still will remain useless. Hammer just need to be replaced.

    Not in WvW

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

    whats so buggy about it? enemy leaves its cast range and it does nothing. many skills do that.
    and since the skill itself is OP as kitten already it needs no buffs in the first place

    Any other targeted port if cast within range will port you to your target or, if the target moves out of range, it will port you closer to your target. Unrelenting Assault is the only port which exhibits this behavior where it frequently fizzle out. Not even smoke assault has this issue. `

    Moreover, this skill is prone to fizzling even when the opponent is within range, but when it chooses to do so can seem arbitrary at times. I've noticed it most when attempting to hit someone who is on slightly uneven ground.

    If you read the goal of this thread, the point is not explicitly buffs, but rather fixing clunky or buggy behavior. It is within reason for a player to expect their skill to behave as expected under normal circumstances.

    In this instance, you cast Unrelenting Assault at near max range. You attempt to evade a skill during the windup, moving your character ever so slightly out of that 600 unit distance. Your skill appears to bug out and plays out the animation while hitting nothing.

    By buffing the latch range to 900 (even 750 would be a reasonable buffer) it gives the player room to kite around the opponents abilities without their skill fizzling, removing unnecessary clunk.

    Naturally, this does end up buffing the skill, but that is the case, you can offset the buff in other ways, such as reducing the might duration from 3 seconds to 1 in PvP, reducing the coefficient, ect.

    I understand bias against Rev given their near-permanent status in the meta, but assuming the skill behaves this way by design, balancing a skill through clunky, unintuitive behavior is not good design in my opinion.

    So let's say this goes through.

    In 6 months time you'll be complaining that it fizzles against enemies which were 890 range and moved to 910 range.

    So it gets buffed again to 1200 range.

    6 months later you'll be complaining that it fizzles against enemies which were 1190 range and moved to 1210 range.

    So it gets buffed again to 1500 range........

    ad infinitum.

    Yay for addressing the symptom and not the cause!

    The actual solution would seem to me to put it on interrupt, not full, cooldown if it fizzles, and refund the energy cost. Assuming no buggy interactions, 600 range is already very generous.

    Shiro-Rev being able to Phase Traverse + Unrelenting Assault from 2400 units away, with unblockable, quickness, uninterruptiple, evading damage, is the most ludicrously OP thing I've ever heard suggested.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @Ragnar.4257 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    Nice suggestions, I have one concern with unrelenting assault latch range though, I think 1200 might be a bit too much on rev considering synergy with legend swap/impossible odds etc. I think 900 range would be perfect and reducing the windup time to not be so reliant on quickness.

    You have a good point. 1200 range would make the skill unecessarily sticky. 900 should be enough to make it consistent without being overbearing.

    unrelenting is already overbearing, boo hoo you have to be in range to use a skill, what a weird thing

    Controversial thought, I know, but I don't think buggy behavior is a good way to balance a skill.

    whats so buggy about it? enemy leaves its cast range and it does nothing. many skills do that.
    and since the skill itself is OP as kitten already it needs no buffs in the first place

    Any other targeted port if cast within range will port you to your target or, if the target moves out of range, it will port you closer to your target. Unrelenting Assault is the only port which exhibits this behavior where it frequently fizzle out. Not even smoke assault has this issue. `

    Moreover, this skill is prone to fizzling even when the opponent is within range, but when it chooses to do so can seem arbitrary at times. I've noticed it most when attempting to hit someone who is on slightly uneven ground.

    If you read the goal of this thread, the point is not explicitly buffs, but rather fixing clunky or buggy behavior. It is within reason for a player to expect their skill to behave as expected under normal circumstances.

    In this instance, you cast Unrelenting Assault at near max range. You attempt to evade a skill during the windup, moving your character ever so slightly out of that 600 unit distance. Your skill appears to bug out and plays out the animation while hitting nothing.

    By buffing the latch range to 900 (even 750 would be a reasonable buffer) it gives the player room to kite around the opponents abilities without their skill fizzling, removing unnecessary clunk.

    Naturally, this does end up buffing the skill, but that is the case, you can offset the buff in other ways, such as reducing the might duration from 3 seconds to 1 in PvP, reducing the coefficient, ect.

    I understand bias against Rev given their near-permanent status in the meta, but assuming the skill behaves this way by design, balancing a skill through clunky, unintuitive behavior is not good design in my opinion.

    So let's say this goes through.

    In 6 months time you'll be complaining that it fizzles against enemies which were 890 range and moved to 910 range.

    So it gets buffed again to 1200 range.

    6 months later you'll be complaining that it fizzles against enemies which were 1190 range and moved to 1210 range.

    So it gets buffed again to 1500 range........

    ad infinitum.

    Yay for addressing the symptom and not the cause!

    The actual solution would seem to me to put it on interrupt, not full, cooldown if it fizzles, and refund the energy cost. Assuming no buggy interactions, 600 range is already very generous.

    Shiro-Rev being able to Phase Traverse + Unrelenting Assault from 2400 units away, with unblockable, quickness, uninterruptiple, evading damage, is the most ludicrously OP thing I've ever heard suggested.

    It's highly unlikely that it would work that way in practice. The purpose of this change is to allow the Rev the ability to space themselves out of immediate danger during the wind up.

    900, or even 750 range would be more than sufficient to prevent fizzling under these circumstances due to the fact that the initial cast range is still 600. Lets say you buffed the latch range to as little as 750. You would have to move 150 units away from your target during the brief windup in order to cause it to fizzle, and at that point it would be the fault of the player for overstepping the amount of wiggle room granted by the skill. Currently, the skill grants no wiggle room at all if cast at maximum range. Want to stay in range, but don't want to path directly into a darkrazer's daring, DH trap, ect. (which would interrupt the cast anyway)? You're out of luck.

    What's more is that it would not remove counterplay. If you notice a rev attempting to use UA as a gapcloser, any tiny blink or dash (even a Jault) would allow you to break the tether.

    At 1500 range, nothing short of your opponent shadowstepping 901 units away would cause a fizzle... If anyone complains at that point, their goal isn't improved fluidity of combat, they want Rev to be god mode.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Unrelenting assault should be AoE circle ability where the rev teleports on the location and starts jumping around the targets in the circle. All these long dodge attack skills are kitten to me, one is attacking while the other can do kitten all about it is kinda dumb, everyone should have equal opportunity to punch each other.

  • @Vancho.8750 said:
    I think Unrelenting assault should be AoE circle ability where the rev teleports on the location and starts jumping around the targets in the circle. All these long dodge attack skills are kitten to me, one is attacking while the other can do kitten all about it is kinda dumb, everyone should have equal opportunity to punch each other.

    The counter to these skills are barriers like Spectral Wall, Line of Warding, etc. These skills yoink you from your dodge skills.

  • wevh.2903wevh.2903 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Imo, Revenant only needs four design fixes:
    The shortbow AoE being cast-able in 360° around me.
    The Renegade stun break not being ground-targetted, but instantly popping on my position.
    Surge of The Mists needs to lose that garbage wind-up.
    Coalescence of Ruin needs to be enemy-targetted again.

    Staff5 rework was a nice change , there shouldnt be insta stuns , staff 5 is defensive tool .