Viper, Trailblazer or Grieving for condi Mirage OW/WvW? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Viper, Trailblazer or Grieving for condi Mirage OW/WvW?

Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭

I just can't find a clear answer: what's the optimal gear for condi mirage open world? Some says Trailblazer, other Viper and some swear to Grieving. I have in mind OW mostly, with some WvW occasionally. I would like to use all condi weapons available: Axe/Torch, Staff and/or Scepter/Pistol. Depends on situation. I would like to know the difference between Viper and Trailblazer in terms of pure dmg: is the difference really minor, like 10% - 15%? Or it's more likely 30% - 40%?
I can't test it myself, because i only have Marauder set for my Power Chronomancer and Sisnister for condi mesmer, but i can see that both Axe and Scepter are quite dependent on Power. Also Staff #3 is pure Power ...

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  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I just can't find a clear answer: what's the optimal gear for condi mirage open world? Some says Trailblazer, other Viper and some swear to Grieving. I have in mind OW mostly, with some WvW occasionally. I would like to use all condi weapons available: Axe/Torch, Staff and/or Scepter/Pistol. Depends on situation. I would like to know the difference between Viper and Trailblazer in terms of pure dmg: is the difference really minor, like 10% - 15%? Or it's more likely 30% - 40%?
    I can't test it myself, because i only have Marauder set for my Power Chronomancer and Sisnister for condi mesmer, but i can see that both Axe and Scepter are quite dependent on Power. Also Staff #3 is pure Power ...

    it really depends im afraid.
    in open world against veterans and random mobs viper is massive damage boost over trailblazer. Against elites, event mobs or fractal bosses trailblazer loses less and less to viper, I would say 10-15%. against normal mobs ~30%
    ( im speaking from perspective of using axe/torch + axe/pistol, staff and scepter has much less dps than axe so I dont use it so I cant compare it )
    in WvW viper is unviable, almost everyone is power and you will keep getting 1shot.
    to put it into perspective, soulbeast will rapid fire you for over 40k within 1,5s. on viper you have no toughness and 16k hp. You die in under 1s while not even being in range to do anything. Some health and some toughness is mandatory there.
    Also important thing is that you dont HAVE to use 1 stat. you can mix and match them, use all viper but 3x trailblazer pieces for example. If I remember correctly I got used to run viper only but switched my 2x leg pieces to trail and its smooth sailing there.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    I just can't find a clear answer: what's the optimal gear for condi mirage open world? Some says Trailblazer, other Viper and some swear to Grieving. I have in mind OW mostly, with some WvW occasionally. I would like to use all condi weapons available: Axe/Torch, Staff and/or Scepter/Pistol. Depends on situation. I would like to know the difference between Viper and Trailblazer in terms of pure dmg: is the difference really minor, like 10% - 15%? Or it's more likely 30% - 40%?
    I can't test it myself, because i only have Marauder set for my Power Chronomancer and Sisnister for condi mesmer, but i can see that both Axe and Scepter are quite dependent on Power. Also Staff #3 is pure Power ...

    Friend of mine has a pretty nasty plauge-doctor mirage. I believe Trail-blazers from what I tested (Pre feb patch) just didn't cut the mustard so to speak, and since its more about movement and dodging along with teleports I believe going grieving would be fine. But honestly right now? Chron> Mirage. Infact your chrono might be fine as is (Id actually suggest Wanderer's for the boon-upkeep for team fights, but eh. Up to you.)

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    For WVW you want to play chrono, you don't want to play the meme 1 dodge mirage IMO.

    For PVE regardless of stat choice if you play condi mesmer the enemy has to actually attack often to not be useless (that's ho confusion works) so I would lean towards trailblazer unless you have outside healing or a tank.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    For WVW you want to play chrono, you don't want to play the meme 1 dodge mirage IMO.

    For PVE regardless of stat choice if you play condi mesmer the enemy has to actually attack often to not be useless (that's ho confusion works) so I would lean towards trailblazer unless you have outside healing or a tank.

    or you can rely on 12 stacks of torment you get from every ambush on axe, cmes in pve is mostly about that.

  • Zraurum.8493Zraurum.8493 Member ✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    you do not need power in a condi assembly viper gives power, the power stat itself is again useless without crit and critical power, plus you will not have a branch under power, it will not be an assembly, but a cuttlefish. In such an assembly, as the authors write above, you will be shot not only by players but also by bosses.
    In addition to everything, the staff and the axe, the scepter are primarily a condi weapon.

    I communicate through a translator

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    Thx for your replies, guys. I see that power is mandatory for Axe, irrelevant for Staff, not bad at all for Scepter #3, Scepter Ambush and Pistol. Not sure about Torch.
    I just did some math here with Power only numbers (from Build Editor):
    Axe without Power on gear: auto attack dmg 195 power dmg, #2: 426 dmg and #3: 622 dmg. Ambush: 356 dmg. With full Viper (ascended), no runes, no weapon sigils, the Power numbers are much higher: Auto attack dmg 446, #2: 972 dmg and #3: 1418 dmg. Ambush: 810 dmg. As you can see dmg with Power on gear is more then doubled + 35% - 40% base crit and you can get some nice numbers from power dmg ...

    So i guess if i focus on Axe/Pistol Viper is the best choice, while Staff and Scepter/Torch might work just fine with Trailblazer or some mixture between Viper and Trailblazer?
    I just want to have some fun with condi, get borred of power chrono ... It doesn't really matter much, if the dmg is lower, i just need something fresh:) I can still get back to chrono some day ...
    Sorry for English ...

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    Viper is the glass cannon stat for condi classes.
    You will never go all glass cannon on pvp modes (wvw or spvp) so you choose a stat that has offensive and a bit of defense for survivality (Trailblazer or Dire).

    Never use Grieving unless you know what you're doing. (its another glass cannon stat, but drops condi duration for more power damage).

    Years just pass like trains
    I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zraurum.8493 said:
    you do not need power in a condi assembly viper gives power, the power stat itself is again useless without crit and critical power, plus you will not have a branch under power, it will not be an assembly, but a cuttlefish. In such an assembly, as the authors write above, you will be shot not only by players but also by bosses.
    In addition to everything, the staff and the axe, the scepter are primarily a condi weapon.

    The reason Viper is meta is because its the only asc stat that has condi duration and expertise.

    The same goes for Harriers, power is useless on a druid/hb, but its the only stat that has healing and concentration and doesn't have toughness.

    Years just pass like trains
    I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    If you are playing condi mirage you will not dish out enough dmg to the meta classes that are currently dominating the WvW scene. Condi mirage with 2 dodges can just easily run away from because they have no real engage ability to keep up and catch up. Now that condi mirage is only one dodge you either have to dodge for dmg or dodge to mitigate dmg either way you lack the dmg. The problem with condi mirage is the fact that you have 3 dmg condi skills which can easily be removed by sigil of cleansing + traits. With 2 dodges you could reapply it while their things are on CD but with one dodge on a fixated 8 sec cd with food and vigor you will out rotate their condi cleanses.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    If you are playing condi mirage you will not dish out enough dmg to the meta classes that are currently dominating the WvW scene. Condi mirage with 2 dodges can just easily run away from because they have no real engage ability to keep up and catch up. Now that condi mirage is only one dodge you either have to dodge for dmg or dodge to mitigate dmg either way you lack the dmg. The problem with condi mirage is the fact that you have 3 dmg condi skills which can easily be removed by sigil of cleansing + traits. With 2 dodges you could reapply it while their things are on CD but with one dodge on a fixated 8 sec cd with food and vigor you will out rotate their condi cleanses.

    Ok, i can play core condi mesmer or power chrono in WvW then, if mirage is so bad. But anyway i am more interested about open world. WvW is so empty these days, that i can only do some solo or small group stuff there.
    I still can't decide jet between Viper and Trailblazer gear for open world or a mix of both. With Trailblazer i get much lower burst dmg but i am not sure if my defensive stats would compensate the dmg loss. With full Trailblazer i get, i guess, only 20% - 25% dmg reduction with all the Toughness i get, right? that's not much. And 4k additional health doesn't seem much either ... i really don't like toughness on gear: it's the most useless stat in the game. It barely provides any dmg reduction. So only real defense that Trailblazer provides is about 4.5 k additional health.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zraurum.8493 said:
    you do not need power in a condi assembly viper gives power, the power stat itself is again useless without crit and critical power, plus you will not have a branch under power, it will not be an assembly, but a cuttlefish. In such an assembly, as the authors write above, you will be shot not only by players but also by bosses.
    In addition to everything, the staff and the axe, the scepter are primarily a condi weapon.

    you would be surprised how much this little power and crit on viper can do. against weak mobs that die in ~2-3s stacking condi doesnt mean much since you apply 40 stacks of torment for 10s+ and they die in 2-3 and waste most of it. Meanwhile the power damage stays.
    and btw, crit = good since clone crits apply bleed due to sharper immages trait.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    Thx for your replies, guys. I see that power is mandatory for Axe, irrelevant for Staff, not bad at all for Scepter #3, Scepter Ambush and Pistol. Not sure about Torch.
    I just did some math here with Power only numbers (from Build Editor):
    Axe without Power on gear: auto attack dmg 195 power dmg, #2: 426 dmg and #3: 622 dmg. Ambush: 356 dmg. With full Viper (ascended), no runes, no weapon sigils, the Power numbers are much higher: Auto attack dmg 446, #2: 972 dmg and #3: 1418 dmg. Ambush: 810 dmg. As you can see dmg with Power on gear is more then doubled + 35% - 40% base crit and you can get some nice numbers from power dmg ...

    So i guess if i focus on Axe/Pistol Viper is the best choice, while Staff and Scepter/Torch might work just fine with Trailblazer or some mixture between Viper and Trailblazer?
    I just want to have some fun with condi, get borred of power chrono ... It doesn't really matter much, if the dmg is lower, i just need something fresh:) I can still get back to chrono some day ...
    Sorry for English ...

    just go 50/50 trail and viper, being at 16k hp with 0 toughness will be annoying from time to time

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You don't need trailblazers for open world PvE. Just go full vipers and call it a day. If you do go into WvW then use trailblazers and you'll be more than fine.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    just go 50/50 trail and viper, being at 16k hp with 0 toughness will be annoying from time to time

    But then i will only have 20% crit or even less ... I need at least 40% base crit to get benefits from Sharper Images and some other traits and Weapon Sigils, such as Superior Sigil of Earth, because all these stuff is so dependent on crit. Even Viper gear is very low on crit (35% only). Sinister or Rabid gear both give me 50% crit, but zero condi duration. Or i can simply get some Runes with Precison and condi duration + 7% crit on weapons: problem solved :)

  • Salt Mode.3780Salt Mode.3780 Member ✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    If you really want to go open world Grieving is the best stat VS Viper. Grieving overall has the better dmg both condi and power spike burst not Viper. Duration can be extended through runes or sigils and even food. Viper is only good for long extended fights in raids and mobs that move very often (Matthias in Raid).

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Since they neutered power coefficients on axe, sadly I believe straight condi bunker is the best way in wvw.

    Unless using scepter and aiming for some sc3 crits, but for axe and staff power is not worth the amount you have to invest - I used to go grieving with cele trinkets in wvw for nice F1 crits, axe 3 crits etc, but now it's pathetic even with boosting power. Personally with Axe/X + Staff I just go TB+Rabid up to ~30% crit for shaper images (though that's questionable as well - straight TB is simpler).

    Open world pve though, as others have said just go full viper or grieving. But tbh rabid is also fine in casual sense, plenty of damage while being relaxing.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • mesmer condi in wvw is pointless you dont do enough dmg with how many cleanses there are in the game and built in traits that remove the 3 dmg condis that mesmers dish out

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Salt Mode.3780 said:
    mesmer condi in wvw is pointless you dont do enough dmg with how many cleanses there are in the game and built in traits that remove the 3 dmg condis that mesmers dish out

    This thread being about condi within that subgroup, if they want to play it then is reasonable to discuss what stats work better, regardless of the overall efficacy of condi mirage in general.

    I agree it's not in a good place, felt like massaging enemies at times, and can be fairly boring/one-dimensional, or even pointless in some cases.

    But reality is majority of players will not be optimal - can die to condi, can be caught, can be escaped from etc. Relative few will be uncatchable, few will sustain if sticking around, and few will kill you if speccing full on cheese stats with max endurance regen.
    Depends how much the player cares about various encounters.

    Personally, having a few equipment+build templates at the ready - always nice to have one of them condi bunker, for whatever situation.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • condi bunker is nice as a distraction for your allies to engage to help you and assist but in terms of being able to fight alone it is dismissible and generally most classes can and will run away from you.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well that's never been my experience - rather the opposite, but builds and playstyles differ.

    My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    Why not just go full ham viper + tormeting runes ? Perma heal allows you to facetank through so many encounters whenever you do get hit in between evades.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I use a mix of Carrion Armor, Viper Weapons, and Marauder Trinkets, and do pretty well in WvW with that. Surprising damage, surviveability, and enough power damage up front for a good spike with some conditions to help keep the pressure up.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    OW viper or sinister. Grieving is okay too.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    Thy for your replies, guys. I am doing just fine with Viper (+ 2 Trailbalizer trinkets) in OW. Versus some tougher elite monsters i just swap to Staff from axe. Also Scepter single target burst dmg is just insane. There is no need to farm Trailblaizer gear for WvW because every time i enter WvW i barely see any people there. Maps are so empty ... I could do some solo stuff but i am not really interested about that. So i will just focus on open world and some low lvl fractals.

  • Tseison.4659Tseison.4659 Member ✭✭✭

    I use Sinister because the extra condi duration won’t mean kitten in PvP/wvw with all the condition cleanses....raw condi damage for me.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Check out the vanilla stat set that is a Dire/rabid combo.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Viper if yu are going for Fractals and Raids.

    Trailblazer if openworld or wvw.

    Simple reason being that if yu are running Fractals and Raids as a Mirage, yu are running as a DPS, and yur safety aside from not standing in bad like a rock is the Support's job, hence Viper being more favoured for optimal dps.

    Trailblazer in Ow and WvW is because yu absolutely need the defences to protect yurself in the event of getting focused, which is all the time.

    Trailblazer is $$ tho, so I would just pass go for Rabid armor and weapons and farm LW currency for full Trailblazer trinkets.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.