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GW2 league rank broken

uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
edited October 17, 2020 in PVP

When you start the league you get +100s within an hour, then after a bit it goes to +50s, then it goes to +15-25s, then it averages at +7-+15.

So what happens is some players they get to 1900s real quick, stop playing and play a few games to keep their rating.

So, if say you do 10 loses 3 wins and at 1000, if you don't play another game for say 4 days and win. You'll be getting +10s.
However, if say you do 10 loses 3 wins at 1000, you play games and win on the start of league day, you'll get + or -, 50-100

So those who don't play on start of day are screwed, and those who exploit it by getting 30 wins and at 1900+.
If you did 30 wins a week or 2 after the start day, you wouldn't be anywhere near 1900+.

Solution.
Add a cap of how much rating points you can get per day.
Such as have a cap on league start day, 1600 is the highest, a week later 1700 is the highest, a week later 1800 is the highest.
This will make it so people don't automatically be #1 on day 1 and nothing you can do about it. (all they do is play 1 game every 5 days, they exploited to very high rating points, nearly impossible to get that high after a week since the start date, you'd need to quadruple the wins they have)

Glicko system or whatever they run, is exploitable when new league starts

Comments

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    When you start the league you get +100s within an hour, then after a bit it goes to +50s, then it goes to +15-25s, then it averages at +7-+15.

    So what happens is some players they get to 1900s real quick, stop playing and play a few games to keep their rating.

    So, if say you do 10 loses 3 wins and at 1000, if you don't play another game for say 4 days and win. You'll be getting +10s.
    However, if say you do 10 loses 3 wins at 1000, you play games and win on the start of league day, you'll get + or -, 50-100

    So those who don't play on start of day are screwed, and those who exploit it by getting 30 wins and at 1900+.
    If you did 30 wins a week or 2 after the start day, you wouldn't be anywhere near 1900+.

    Solution.
    Add a cap of how much rating points you can get per day.
    Such as have a cap on league start day, 1600 is the highest, a week later 1700 is the highest, a week later 1800 is the highest.
    This will make it so people don't automatically be #1 on day 1 and nothing you can do about it. (all they do is play 1 game every 5 days, they exploited to very high rating points, nearly impossible to get that high after a week since the start date, you'd need to quadruple the wins they have)

    Glicko system or whatever they run, is exploitable when new league starts

    That isn't how it works. You don't understand.

    It is not based on "number of days". It is based on "number of games played". If you were to do all of your placement games on the very last day of season, you would also be getting +50 results for the first few games.

    Whether it is 1st day or last day of season is irrelevant. You will always get high +/- for you first ~10 games, medium +/- for your 10th to 30th games (roughly) and low gains thereafter.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah first 30 games give increased points/loss, if you are high rated, you even loose more and gain less

  • Yes this how the Ranked PvP scoring works talked last time in 'How does PvP scoring works?' besides that I don't know why the PvP community didn't complained about it in the past because it unfairly nailing people down on a rank(and some other stuff) which it isn't its purpose. Matchmaking should balance this out

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lord of the Fire.6870 said:
    Yes this how the Ranked PvP scoring works talked last time in 'How does PvP scoring works?' besides that I don't know why the PvP community didn't complained about it in the past because it unfairly nailing people down on a rank(and some other stuff) which it isn't its purpose. Matchmaking should balance this out

    They just do the minimal games that are required, if you are good enaugh, pick 2 mates and do the 15 games one day and the other a week later

    If you can't do that stop complaining

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Yeah first 30 games give increased points/loss, if you are high rated, you even loose more and gain less

    Nope.
    I was given +50 points, this was on day 1. AND the -50s points.
    Now on day whatever
    all I see is +10 to +16

    IF say a good player came along all sudden
    Won 60 games straight, won all straight in the prelims.

    He probably wouldn't make top 20 because all he gets is +10s to +16s.

    Unfair because day 1 everyone is getting +50s to +100s

    This happens any season.
    ...
    Right out the gates there needs to be a cap, like 1600 is the highest, and wait so EVERYONE is getting fair +10 to 16s. Not select few who exploit right away get insane high score and don't play anymore.

    Those guys get 30 wins, someone with 50 wins 0 losses a week after NEVER be able to catch up to them, they'd have to win insane amount just to get close.

    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the first week 1600
    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the second week 1800
    then its fair game.

    One of the leagues I saw someone 2200s.
    How???? Because they exploited the glicko system.

    GLICKO system is BROKEN when it starts new league.
    It needs TIME TO ADJUST ITSELF
    NEEDS TO BE A HARD CAP on first week

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Yeah first 30 games give increased points/loss, if you are high rated, you even loose more and gain less

    Nope.
    I was given +50 points, this was on day 1. AND the -50s points.
    Now on day whatever
    all I see is +10 to +16

    IF say a good player came along all sudden
    Won 60 games straight, won all straight in the prelims.

    He probably wouldn't make top 20 because all he gets is +10s to +16s.

    Unfair because day 1 everyone is getting +50s to +100s

    This happens any season.
    ...
    Right out the gates there needs to be a cap, like 1600 is the highest, and wait so EVERYONE is getting fair +10 to 16s. Not select few who exploit right away get insane high score and don't play anymore.

    Those guys get 30 wins, someone with 50 wins 0 losses a week after NEVER be able to catch up to them, they'd have to win insane amount just to get close.

    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the first week 1600
    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the second week 1800
    then its fair game.

    One of the leagues I saw someone 2200s.
    How???? Because they exploited the glicko system.

    GLICKO system is BROKEN when it starts new league.
    It needs TIME TO ADJUST ITSELF
    NEEDS TO BE A HARD CAP on first week

    You are wrong. It has already been explained to you why, I will not repeat it again.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 20, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Avatar.3568 said:
    Yeah first 30 games give increased points/loss, if you are high rated, you even loose more and gain less

    Nope.
    I was given +50 points, this was on day 1. AND the -50s points.
    Now on day whatever
    all I see is +10 to +16

    IF say a good player came along all sudden
    Won 60 games straight, won all straight in the prelims.

    He probably wouldn't make top 20 because all he gets is +10s to +16s.

    Unfair because day 1 everyone is getting +50s to +100s

    This happens any season.
    ...
    Right out the gates there needs to be a cap, like 1600 is the highest, and wait so EVERYONE is getting fair +10 to 16s. Not select few who exploit right away get insane high score and don't play anymore.

    Those guys get 30 wins, someone with 50 wins 0 losses a week after NEVER be able to catch up to them, they'd have to win insane amount just to get close.

    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the first week 1600
    NEEDS TO BE A CAP on the second week 1800
    then its fair game.

    One of the leagues I saw someone 2200s.
    How???? Because they exploited the glicko system.

    GLICKO system is BROKEN when it starts new league.
    It needs TIME TO ADJUST ITSELF
    NEEDS TO BE A HARD CAP on first week

    I don't think your understand what you're on about and just want to complain about something.

    Post is filled with undertones of "I'm not doing as well as I think I should be doing. It's in no way anything to do with me , my choices or my skill..it's the system that's holding me back or other people, who are worse then me, are exploiting it to get ahead of me and preventing me from claiming my rightful place"

    You've had it explain to you how it works and the volatility. You ignoring that doesn't make it any less accurate.

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    New league coming soon.

    Yes, you get +50s early, day 1. Make the cap 1600 for a week please, so top 250 don't just play 50 games and auto easy win.

    Sure they dang good, but they also dang lazy.

    Having league caps is better than once every 3 days rank decline that they have.

    Because with league caps, you gotta ACTUALLY KEEP PLAYING.

    None of this, looks like I'm #1. I'll just not do anything for awhile and maintain mode for now.

    1600 CAP for first week 1700 CAP for second week 1800 CAP for third week NO cap for other weeks.

    None of this
    +50 +50 +50 +50 +50, I'm so high up on leaderboard MAINTENANCE mode now.
    EXPLOITED Glicko System.... Play games EARLY, where everyone is fresh, and EARN HIGH POINTS, GET TOP 250 THEN DO NOTHING.
    Meanwhile a late player, +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 +10 + 10.... Dang it takes so many games to catch up with that guy at 1900 and he hasn't played a game in 4 days.

    SLAP ON THE RANK POINT CAP 1600 ON WEEK ONE.
    So Glicko System actually can't be exploited.

  • Idk what the math is and all that. But, I won 6-4 placements and got placed bottom gold 1, and had to climb all the way up to gold 3 for 2 days straight. I'm not quite sure what it is tbh, but on day one I had a higher win ratio with around 40 games at rank 30 than someone with 15 in top 10.

    That to me is bogus, I don't know how rating works tbh maybe I deserve to be placed super low but it pretty much destroys my whole season and it happens almost every season unless I grind an absurd amount and I have a lot more time than the average player.

    I was talking in map chat about it on the first day of season and I just got wrote off, an explanation would be nice, I'm not sure if the issue brought up in this thread is the same as mine. I thought I'd just throw this in here without making a new thread

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    @Sailorz.5426 said:
    Idk what the math is and all that. But, I won 6-4 placements and got placed bottom gold 1, and had to climb all the way up to gold 3 for 2 days straight. I'm not quite sure what it is tbh, but on day one I had a higher win ratio with around 40 games at rank 30 than someone with 15 in top 10.

    That to me is bogus, I don't know how rating works tbh maybe I deserve to be placed super low but it pretty much destroys my whole season and it happens almost every season unless I grind an absurd amount and I have a lot more time than the average player.

    I was talking in map chat about it on the first day of season and I just got wrote off, an explanation would be nice, I'm not sure if the issue brought up in this thread is the same as mine. I thought I'd just throw this in here without making a new thread

    They grind right away, when the points are HUGE.
    Within first couple hours, your getting +50s for wins.

    Then they sit on it the rest of the season.

    Thats why you need league point CAPS.
    First week, 1600.
    If its just 2 week long.
    First 3 days, 1600.
    Next 3 days 1700.

    This way people like you, who actually are trying and SUCCEEDING. are able to compete. against those sitting around already claiming victoryon the first day and just waiting around till season is over now.

    GLICKO system is not bad.... But its EXPLOITABLE in the beginning.
    You need point caps in the beginning until it gathers enough data and becomes FAIR.

    They probably think "10 games to qualify is enough", I mean why you qualifying every season???

    BECAUSE GLICKO SYSTEM IS BAD IN THE BEGINNING.

    It does not solve people exploiting it though, after 10 games.... +50 points per game here I come.

    Why you think in 3v3 2v2 people are at 2100+ sometimes?
    Its quicker to do 3v3 2v2, but 5v5 takes more time.... More time means more games being played, more people getting points.
    Glicko system is evening now, so not easy to do 2100+ on regular season.

    ....
    But 3v3 2v2, quick games.... GLICKO SYSTEM EXPLOITABLE in the beginning. Oh here I come 2100+.

    Exploited the kitten outta the glicko system and these developers still clueless.
    Well here I am, PUT A DANG CAP on the seasons for the first week or two and first couple days on short seasons.
    Got people EXPLOITING the heck outta it here.

    "he heh hehe, +50s, hey keep it on the down lo, you play games right away, make sure you win, after 20 of em, should be 1800+ easy."
    ....
    .
    Meanwhile someone entering the league now.
    "How come I have 60 victories 1 loss and I aint even close to the top 20????"
    "the dude with 37 wins 5 losses has 150 more points than I, impossible!"

    ...

    "lets say they lost an important fight, and the 37 victories guy won all fights he was suppose to lose, hehehe hehe, trick the playerbase into thinking this way"
    "they aint know the secret +50s within the first couple of hours! GLICKO EXPLOIT we keep on the down lo! hehe hehehehe"

  • Sailorz.5426Sailorz.5426 Member ✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Sailorz.5426 said:
    Idk what the math is and all that. But, I won 6-4 placements and got placed bottom gold 1, and had to climb all the way up to gold 3 for 2 days straight. I'm not quite sure what it is tbh, but on day one I had a higher win ratio with around 40 games at rank 30 than someone with 15 in top 10.

    That to me is bogus, I don't know how rating works tbh maybe I deserve to be placed super low but it pretty much destroys my whole season and it happens almost every season unless I grind an absurd amount and I have a lot more time than the average player.

    I was talking in map chat about it on the first day of season and I just got wrote off, an explanation would be nice, I'm not sure if the issue brought up in this thread is the same as mine. I thought I'd just throw this in here without making a new thread

    They grind right away, when the points are HUGE.
    Within first couple hours, your getting +50s for wins.

    Then they sit on it the rest of the season.

    Thats why you need league point CAPS.
    First week, 1600.
    If its just 2 week long.
    First 3 days, 1600.
    Next 3 days 1700.

    This way people like you, who actually are trying and SUCCEEDING. are able to compete. against those sitting around already claiming victoryon the first day and just waiting around till season is over now.

    GLICKO system is not bad.... But its EXPLOITABLE in the beginning.
    You need point caps in the beginning until it gathers enough data and becomes FAIR.

    They probably think "10 games to qualify is enough", I mean why you qualifying every season???

    BECAUSE GLICKO SYSTEM IS BAD IN THE BEGINNING.

    It does not solve people exploiting it though, after 10 games.... +50 points per game here I come.

    Why you think in 3v3 2v2 people are at 2100+ sometimes?
    Its quicker to do 3v3 2v2, but 5v5 takes more time.... More time means more games being played, more people getting points.
    Glicko system is evening now, so not easy to do 2100+ on regular season.

    ....
    But 3v3 2v2, quick games.... GLICKO SYSTEM EXPLOITABLE in the beginning. Oh here I come 2100+.

    Exploited the kitten outta the glicko system and these developers still clueless.
    Well here I am, PUT A DANG CAP on the seasons for the first week or two and first couple days on short seasons.
    Got people EXPLOITING the heck outta it here.

    "he heh hehe, +50s, hey keep it on the down lo, you play games right away, make sure you win, after 20 of em, should be 1800+ easy."
    ....
    .
    Meanwhile someone entering the league now.
    "How come I have 60 victories 1 loss and I aint even close to the top 20????"
    "the dude with 37 wins 5 losses has 150 more points than I, impossible!"

    ...

    "lets say they lost an important fight, and the 37 victories guy won all fights he was suppose to lose, hehehe hehe, trick the playerbase into thinking this way"
    "they aint know the secret +50s within the first couple of hours! GLICKO EXPLOIT we keep on the down lo! hehe hehehehe"

    I don't know any thing about glicko, but I feel like they score a lot higher on placements than someone who doesn't have top rank in the last season. I was talking in map, and someone who went 4-6 placement got put in mid gold 2.

    My issue is that I had positive placements and just got placed way lower than I should have been so I started off with a massive disadvantage.

  • @Sailorz.5426 said:

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:

    @Sailorz.5426 said:
    Idk what the math is and all that. But, I won 6-4 placements and got placed bottom gold 1, and had to climb all the way up to gold 3 for 2 days straight. I'm not quite sure what it is tbh, but on day one I had a higher win ratio with around 40 games at rank 30 than someone with 15 in top 10.

    That to me is bogus, I don't know how rating works tbh maybe I deserve to be placed super low but it pretty much destroys my whole season and it happens almost every season unless I grind an absurd amount and I have a lot more time than the average player.

    I was talking in map chat about it on the first day of season and I just got wrote off, an explanation would be nice, I'm not sure if the issue brought up in this thread is the same as mine. I thought I'd just throw this in here without making a new thread

    They grind right away, when the points are HUGE.
    Within first couple hours, your getting +50s for wins.

    Then they sit on it the rest of the season.

    Thats why you need league point CAPS.
    First week, 1600.
    If its just 2 week long.
    First 3 days, 1600.
    Next 3 days 1700.

    This way people like you, who actually are trying and SUCCEEDING. are able to compete. against those sitting around already claiming victoryon the first day and just waiting around till season is over now.

    GLICKO system is not bad.... But its EXPLOITABLE in the beginning.
    You need point caps in the beginning until it gathers enough data and becomes FAIR.

    They probably think "10 games to qualify is enough", I mean why you qualifying every season???

    BECAUSE GLICKO SYSTEM IS BAD IN THE BEGINNING.

    It does not solve people exploiting it though, after 10 games.... +50 points per game here I come.

    Why you think in 3v3 2v2 people are at 2100+ sometimes?
    Its quicker to do 3v3 2v2, but 5v5 takes more time.... More time means more games being played, more people getting points.
    Glicko system is evening now, so not easy to do 2100+ on regular season.

    ....
    But 3v3 2v2, quick games.... GLICKO SYSTEM EXPLOITABLE in the beginning. Oh here I come 2100+.

    Exploited the kitten outta the glicko system and these developers still clueless.
    Well here I am, PUT A DANG CAP on the seasons for the first week or two and first couple days on short seasons.
    Got people EXPLOITING the heck outta it here.

    "he heh hehe, +50s, hey keep it on the down lo, you play games right away, make sure you win, after 20 of em, should be 1800+ easy."
    ....
    .
    Meanwhile someone entering the league now.
    "How come I have 60 victories 1 loss and I aint even close to the top 20????"
    "the dude with 37 wins 5 losses has 150 more points than I, impossible!"

    ...

    "lets say they lost an important fight, and the 37 victories guy won all fights he was suppose to lose, hehehe hehe, trick the playerbase into thinking this way"
    "they aint know the secret +50s within the first couple of hours! GLICKO EXPLOIT we keep on the down lo! hehe hehehehe"

    I don't know any thing about glicko, but I feel like they score a lot higher on placements than someone who doesn't have top rank in the last season. I was talking in map, and someone who went 4-6 placement got put in mid gold 2.

    My issue is that I had positive placements and just got placed way lower than I should have been so I started off with a massive disadvantage.

    I was Gold T2 last season. I ended up Silver T1 this season. I went 2 of 8, 2 of the losses was with flipping bots.
    Maybe does have some effective who knows.

    Just like another thread I made,
    GW2 is restrictive
    You don't know that info
    You don't know your MMR
    You don't know this and that.

    How come I don't know???? GW2 being restrictive is why.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guys

    1. Glicko is just broken and does not work in low population.
    2. There is way too much match manipulation going on. Guys in p3+ somehow losing ATs to teams of bottom plat 1 players.
    3. There are way too many bots in play, which are also used for throwing for the mains of the people running the bots.
    4. Old accounts with many many total games played get outrageously more difficult matches than new accounts with much lower total games played. This results in an effect where guys playing on 50cc take 1st place in their matches and end up with higher ratings than guys playing on 150cc who take 2nd in their matches. So you got guys who are riding bottom plat 2, who are noticeably poor at combat mechanics and even rotational knowledge in ATs, and then there are guys stuck in bottom plat 1 on very old mains with many games played, who are clearly much stronger in ATs both mechanically and rotationally.

    Nothing with the GW2 rating makes any sense anymore. You really really really shouldn't take rating seriously in the ranked modes in 2020.

  • uberkingkong.8041uberkingkong.8041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 22, 2020

    Nah not broken like that, moreso broken, if you didn't play within first couple hours, you missed out on opportunity for very quick victory.

    Especially if your someone who wins more than you lose.

    IF you get 30 wins 10 losses right out the gates you gonna have a high score
    Someone else 30 wins 10 losses a week later..... Not so high score

    "uughghg the one had tougher games than the other, thats why"
    brah,
    GLicko system is broken when it first starts, sure if its off by a couple points yeah, but 200 point difference????
    Yeah exploited the system.

    I'm
    Going
    To
    Say
    It
    Again
    Put a point cap on for the first week. 1600.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Read about GLICKO here: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko.pdf

    If you can explain the last paragraph and understand it, we can talk. So far you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea how it works even though people explained several times why this is not a "time" but a "games played" issue.

    It is not broken. But it is not working in optimal conditions with low population (and maybe some wintrading/queue-dodging). Bots are fine for the system, it is not GLICKO's fault that bots with some builds are stronger than many players. That's on Anet's game design.

  • @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Read about GLICKO here: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko.pdf

    If you can explain the last paragraph and understand it, we can talk. So far you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea how it works even though people explained several times why this is not a "time" but a "games played" issue.

    It is not broken. But it is not working in optimal conditions with low population (and maybe some wintrading/queue-dodging). Bots are fine for the system, it is not GLICKO's fault that bots with some builds are stronger than many players. That's on Anet's game design.

    I read the whole thing.

    "One practical problem with the Glicko system is that when a player competes very frequently,
    his/her rating stops changing appreciably which reflects that the RD is very small. This may
    sometimes prevent a player’s rating from changing substantially when the player is truly
    improving."

    It'd be easy for me to say that this is why I'm stuck at gold3-plat1, but is it because I play too much, or that no one else plays enough? Or is my problem unrelated and this is just confirmation bias for me being stuck at my rating.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2020

    @uberkingkong.8041 said:
    Nah not broken like that, moreso broken, if you didn't play within first couple hours, you missed out on opportunity for very quick victory.

    Saying the same thing over and over, doesn't stop it from being wrong.

    The more you say it, the less and less anyone here will take you seriously.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sailorz.5426 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:
    Read about GLICKO here: http://www.glicko.net/glicko/glicko.pdf

    If you can explain the last paragraph and understand it, we can talk. So far you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea how it works even though people explained several times why this is not a "time" but a "games played" issue.

    It is not broken. But it is not working in optimal conditions with low population (and maybe some wintrading/queue-dodging). Bots are fine for the system, it is not GLICKO's fault that bots with some builds are stronger than many players. That's on Anet's game design.

    I read the whole thing.

    "One practical problem with the Glicko system is that when a player competes very frequently,
    his/her rating stops changing appreciably which reflects that the RD is very small. This may
    sometimes prevent a player’s rating from changing substantially when the player is truly
    improving."

    It'd be easy for me to say that this is why I'm stuck at gold3-plat1, but is it because I play too much, or that no one else plays enough? Or is my problem unrelated and this is just confirmation bias for me being stuck at my rating.

    Naah, that's not it. GLICKO (without this "lowest limit of RD") would at some point be extremely sure about your rating. It would actually result in rating changes like +-0. Anet implemented this limit though, which is why at the end for average ratings, the changes are about +-15ish.

    I fear it is more confirmation bias. :tongue: Or at least unrelated to GLICKO. It can of course be possible that you are a good player but your build doesn't carry as much as other builds - just an example.

  • Ouk.5914Ouk.5914 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2020

    No, Simply put just no.

    They have explained to you how it works and how it is.

    You literally just suck at the game and can't climb up or hold a level of rating. I don't even play the game anymore and whenever I get back from doing placements (usually end up in g2) it takes no more then a week worth of trying to get into p2 either alone or with a buddy.

    It is not based on "number of days". It is based on "number of games played". If you were to do all of your placement games on the very last day of season, you would also be getting +50 results for the first few games.

    Whether it is 1st day or last day of season is irrelevant. You will always get high +/- for you first ~10 games, medium +/- for your 10th to 30th games (roughly) and low gains thereafter.

    You want the best possible results then play during the OFF hours and Camp easy rating with a solid duo or better yet do what SOME OF us do when we are extremely kitten bored of this game. Go onto Twitch and Solo Q into some of the streamers that are doing Spvp and are above Gold this would either get you into a stack team or a kitten team.....but it's fun either way.

    Good luck and stop crying about the system.