What is the purpose of Toughness? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Guild Wars 2 Discussion

What is the purpose of Toughness?

Is Toughness a completely useless stat? I don't see any benefits for taking Toughness over any other stat. If i take a gear with 1000 Toughens, for example, i don't see for how much i get dmg reduced. 10%? 17%? 22%? Please, Anet, could you add the exact numbers? Why do i have to do a math by myself? We get exact numbers with ALL other stats, with Toughness being an exception for no reason.

Lets take a look at Guardian Sword. With base 1000 Power the sword Auto attack deals 158 dmg (in PvP). With adding 1000 Power the dmg rises up to 315. The Dmg is doubled! We get exact number, not just random numbers.
Lets look at Vitality: 500 Vitality adds 5000 health, 900 Precision gives about 42% critical chance etc. You can see a numbers rising up with any other stat added, with exception of Toughness.
Now lets take a look at toughness: I take a gear with 900 toughness. The tooltip doesn't show for how much dmg reduction 900 Toughness gives. If i have 1000 base toughens (2167 armor) and i take 900 additional toughness i get 1900 toughness (3067 armor). Great, right? I am immortal now, right? Hmm, am i? I have no idea, because i can't see any dmg reduction numbers on my gear. So i have absolutely no idea how much is toughness worth in reality. I guess 900 toughness gives 15 -20% physical dmg reduction and that's it. But it's stupid that i have to guess about it. We should get exact numbers.

Comments

  • Carcharoth Lucian.1378Carcharoth Lucian.1378 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    Is Toughness a completely useless stat? I don't see any benefits for taking Toughness over any other stat. If i take a gear with 1000 Toughens, for example, i don't see for how much i get dmg reduced. 10%? 17%? 22%? Please, Anet, could you add the exact numbers? Why do i have to do a math by myself? We get exact numbers with ALL other stats, with Toughness being an exception for no reason.

    Lets take a look at Guardian Sword. With base 1000 Power the sword Auto attack deals 158 dmg (in PvP). With adding 1000 Power the dmg rises up to 315. The Dmg is doubled! We get exact number, not just random numbers.
    Lets look at Vitality: 500 Vitality adds 5000 health, 900 Precision gives about 42% critical chance etc. You can see a numbers rising up with any other stat added, with exception of Toughness.
    Now lets take a look at toughness: I take a gear with 900 toughness. The tooltip doesn't show for how much dmg reduction 900 Toughness gives. If i have 1000 base toughens (2167 armor) and i take 900 additional toughness i get 1900 toughness (3067 armor). Great, right? I am immortal now, right? Hmm, am i? I have no idea, because i can't see any dmg reduction numbers on my gear. So i have absolutely no idea how much is toughness worth in reality. I guess 900 toughness gives 15 -20% physical dmg reduction and that's it. But it's stupid that i have to guess about it. We should get exact numbers.

    You don't have a fixed value because it depends on your encounter :
    Damage taken = (Opponent's weapon strength) * Opponent's Power * (Opponent's skill-specific coefficient) / (your Defense + your Toughness)
    Source : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughness

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Taril.8619Taril.8619 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    Toughness is hard to give a definitive number for because it has diminishing returns. Every point gives a lower % damage reduction than the previous one.

    As far as its use goes...

    For instanced PvE it is useless, because nothing hits hard enough to make a "Tank" character need to stack Toughness to survive (Thanks to Protection, Aegis, Block and Evade) and for anyone else, its actively detrimental because of aggro being influenced by Toughness rating.

    Outside of this, it's useful for staying alive longer. OW PvE is predominantly power damage and so Toughness reduces this (Which makes healing skills more effective)

    In PvP/WvW, there's a lot of Condition damage which is unaffected by Toughness, but it will still help against Power builds and will help you stick around a while.

    Cat: Meow.

  • Sifu.9745Sifu.9745 Member ✭✭✭

    Thx, guys. Huh, complicated ... I think that Toughness should get replaced by some more simplistic defensive stat :) I have in mind something similar to Protection boon, which gives a definite numbers. With Protection you get exactly 33% dmg reduction. I am sure Anet can make it that simple.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    It's true that it isn't very useful, but i have only slightly toughness on my gear and i still remember doing some legendary boss and getting hit by one if its AoE abilities. I get knocked down and get up, everyone else is downed, and so i have to rescue them all. Well, i didn't HAVE to, but it helped the boss die faster. That was funny.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Plus they scale with the number of players fighting them which increases their level and stats and even gives them access to new skills and abilities etc.

    Pretty sure that was never implemented.

    You tested it on the golem I expect which has it's own defence rating.

    Yep. Wiki has the armor rating for each of the different golem types. Same goes for raid bosses. For most other things I don't think anyone has bothered to document.

    Against other players you maybe hitting one player for say 1000 damage but you might hit another for only 400.. because they have a much higher armour stat total than the first one you hit.

    Also Protection.

    So basically you can't figure out how much damage reduction you are going to get from your gear and toughness because you don't know the other half of the math equation.. the power stat etc of whoever or whatever you are fighting against.
    You would either have to ask them for that information or be very good at spotting if they are using a common meta build and guessing their stat/gear setup from that.. and then you'll have to do the math rapidly in combat on the fly for each individual skill.. and calculate for potential critical damage as well >.<
    I can't even imagine that being possible for a human being though lol.

    Exact values are impossible but quickily triaging enemy builds is a necessary skill for PvP and WvW roaming.

    As for is toughness useless?
    I have to say from many years of experience no.. it's definitely not useless but you may not find it incredibly useful just on it's own.
    Most people will combine toughness with Vitality to make really tanky builds as the two stats do work really good together, specially if they are backed up with sustained healing either by yourself or another player.
    You can make some very tanky builds in this game using defensive stats like toughness.

    It depends on what you are doing. In high end PvE the damage is often so high that it doesn't help much. You can be stacking layers of damage reduction and stuff will still hit for massive damage so the best defense is to not get hit. Additionally there are attacks which are linked to fight specific mechanics that are going to be guaranteed kills if you don't do the mechanic. Toughness isn't useful against those either.

    Evade, blindness, aegis and to a lesser degree weakness(due to lower reliability) are much cheaper and effective in most cases than investing in toughness. Biggest difference is that those are all active defenses while toughness is completely passive.

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    Thx, guys. Huh, complicated ... I think that Toughness should get replaced by some more simplistic defensive stat :) I have in mind something similar to Protection boon, which gives a definite numbers. With Protection you get exactly 33% dmg reduction. I am sure Anet can make it that simple.

    It is simple. Toughness is a great stat if you preferred not to put any efforts into learning how to use active defenses. Don't want to learn the timing of enemy attacks, telegraphed animations or fight mechanics? Invest more into toughness. That will increase your chance of making through things without learning when to use your skills/dodges or what needs to be negated.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    Maximum Toughness you can get from Ascended gear is 1381 as a primary stat and 961 as a secondary stat. As others said, the reason you don't see the reduction is because it's relative to your Armor, light, medium or heavy.

    Assuming Ascended quality, Light is 967, Medium is 1118 and Heavy is 1271. Given the base Toughness of 1000 for all characters, that gives us1967 Defense for Light, 2118 for Medium and 2271 for Heavy armor users. Let's assume you take 10000000 damage (10 million) and see how much damage each will take. Light will take 5084 damage, Medium will take 4721 damage and Heavy will take 4403 damage

    Let's see the Toughness as Secondary stat (+961), the new values will be: 2968 for Light, 3079 for Medium and 3232 for Heavy. The new damage values will be: 3369 for Light, 3248 for Medium and 3094 for Heavy.

    Now let's add Toughness as Primary stat (+1381), the new values will be: 3348 for Light, 3499 for Medium and 3652 for Heavy, the new damage values will be: 2987 for Light, 2857 for Medium and 2728 for Heavy.

    Or more consolidated:
    Light: 5084 / 3369 (33.7% less damage than 0 Toughness) / 2987 (41.2% less damage than 0 Toughness)
    Medium: 4721 / 3248 (31.2% less damage than 0 Toughness) / 2857 (39.5% less damage than 0 Toughness)
    Heavy: 4403 / 3094 (29.7% less damage than 0 Toughness) / 2728 (38% less damage than 0 Toughness)

    tl;dr
    This means, using gear with Toughness secondary is the same as having a permanent Protection boon
    Also, we can see that going for Primary stat Toughness isn't really worth it

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    Toughness is to offset the incoming damage, it doesn't fully prevent it. Without toughness your healing demand is higher.

    With the healing nerfs in PVP/WVW , every class has to rely more on active defenses whether it is aegis, protection, kiting , evades, or weakness/blind.

    For PVE, unless there is multiple minor incoming damage packets it's better to run full damage stats or damage with vitality (marauder, etc) as incoming damage will not be reduced enough for it to matter. The reason is except for a few cases such as Boneskinner there's a dedicated tank if tanking is possible.

    The biggest issue with toughness in WVW is there aren't that many stat combinations with toughness that also have precision or ferocity which means only condi builds really benefit from heavy investment into it or full on healing builds on minstrel. Most power builds either run runes with toughness (such as durability/brawler/scrapper etc) or a few trinkets with cavalier (toughness main stat, power + ferocity secondary) or captain's (precision main stat, power + toughness secondary). Since most power builds aren't aiming for healing power , Crusader isn't normally used (power + toughness main stat, ferocity + healing power minor stat).

    This would change a bit if the 4-stat demolisher amulet combination were made available to WVW/PVE (power+precision main stat, toughness + ferocity minor stat) which would mix well with marauder (power+precision main stat , vitality+ferocity minor stat).

    The tooltip for a skill is based on non-crit damage against an approximately 2.6K armor target.

  • Ototo.3214Ototo.3214 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    I'm not great at math but I was under the impression that toughness alone isn't that great, you also need to have more overall hp to feel the impact. As for a purpose for toughness alone, it is the stat that determines most aggro for mobs. It you have more toughness, you're more likely to be the one mobs target.

  • Vavume.8065Vavume.8065 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Taril.8619 said:
    Toughness is hard to give a definitive number for because it has diminishing returns.

    This is what I was thinking could be the reason, but still I think we should have the information available for build crafting purposes.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Tyncale.1629 said:
    I think Toughness should mitigate Condi damage too.

    This would make an interesting change to WvW at least, since the most popular builds in that mode seem to be only made to spam AoE condi in areas.

    I can't even count how many times I've seen massive blobs of guilds in WvW running around and stacking purely to spam AoE condis and heals, probably trying to never die and get easy kills from the players that fall for these condi traps.

  • BunjiKugashira.9754BunjiKugashira.9754 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Or to quote the exact formula on the wiki.
    Damage taken = (Opponent's weapon strength) * Opponent's Power * (Opponent's skill-specific coefficient) / (your Defense + your Toughness)
    (Just to clarify the last bit, your defence + toughness is basically your Armour stat total so you don't need to calculate that yourself as the game already shows it to you in the hero pannel.)

    So basically you can't figure out how much damage reduction you are going to get from your gear and toughness because you don't know the other half of the math equation.. the power stat etc of whoever or whatever you are fighting against.

    Actually you can figure out how much damage reduction you are going to get from gear.
    The formular can be simplified to damage_taken = total_offense / total_defense
    If you double your defense you get damage_taken = total_offense / (2 * total_defense) = 1/2 * total_offense / total_defense
    If the formular on the wiki is correct, then doubling your armor value should cut your damage taken by half.

    Of course you can't calculate a flat damage number, but you can calculate the relative damage reduction.

    So the damage reduction is 1 - (armor at base toughness / armor at your current toughness)

    Example:
    A Warrior with Berserker stats has 2271 Armor
    A Warrior with Soldier stats has 3231 Armor

    Damage reduction = 1 - 2271 / 3231 = 0.30 = 30%

    Bugtracker: Costume Brawl, Sunqua Clouds
    Announcementtracker: Alliances, Legendary Armory

  • xXMapcoXx.9614xXMapcoXx.9614 Member ✭✭✭

    Let me give you the short answer, yes it useless. I built a character to see if def stats were even worth it, my character died just as fast with toughness than without it. i tested in several different area in the game an i can say for certain its useless

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In general terms, increasing vitality seems to be much more useful than toughness for defence. However, sometimes the best choices for defence can depend on the class you are playing. For example, for a class that is able to heal a lot, such as the elementalist, I find that increasing healing power and vitality are the best options for increasing defence and survivability.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    For the most part, worthless.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeap, pretty much useless because GW2 mitigate dmg mostly through active skill and passive traits, only place where toughness is in raid tanking, and it's not even for dmg mitigation, but purely as 'aggro' in traditional MMOs terms to grab boss' attention

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @BunjiKugashira.9754 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Or to quote the exact formula on the wiki.
    Damage taken = (Opponent's weapon strength) * Opponent's Power * (Opponent's skill-specific coefficient) / (your Defense + your Toughness)
    (Just to clarify the last bit, your defence + toughness is basically your Armour stat total so you don't need to calculate that yourself as the game already shows it to you in the hero pannel.)

    So basically you can't figure out how much damage reduction you are going to get from your gear and toughness because you don't know the other half of the math equation.. the power stat etc of whoever or whatever you are fighting against.

    Actually you can figure out how much damage reduction you are going to get from gear.
    The formular can be simplified to damage_taken = total_offense / total_defense
    If you double your defense you get damage_taken = total_offense / (2 * total_defense) = 1/2 * total_offense / total_defense
    If the formular on the wiki is correct, then doubling your armor value should cut your damage taken by half.

    Of course you can't calculate a flat damage number, but you can calculate the relative damage reduction.

    So the damage reduction is 1 - (armor at base toughness / armor at your current toughness)

    Example:
    A Warrior with Berserker stats has 2271 Armor
    A Warrior with Soldier stats has 3231 Armor

    Damage reduction = 1 - 2271 / 3231 = 0.30 = 30%

    ^^ This is a really good breakdown. The fact remains you can quantify the impact it has and make a decision on how much to take is what matters. If that's useful or not to people ... that depends on what they are doing really. Admittedly, it's not the easiest thing to determine for lots of people so what would be nice is for there to be some calculator.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    Thx, guys. Huh, complicated ... I think that Toughness should get replaced by some more simplistic defensive stat :) I have in mind something similar to Protection boon, which gives a definite numbers. With Protection you get exactly 33% dmg reduction. I am sure Anet can make it that simple.

    It is simple. Toughness is a great stat if you preferred not to put any efforts into learning how to use active defenses. Don't want to learn the timing of enemy attacks, telegraphed animations or fight mechanics? Invest more into toughness. That will increase your chance of making through things without learning when to use your skills/dodges or what needs to be negated.

    Incorrect. See, for example, Lord Hizen. He's beaten top notch PvP players and WvW roamers using glass builds. He also uses toughness builds to solo fractal CMs, open world metas, and legendary bounties. So have I, for that matter. I won't say there aren't better players out there, but I'd say it's a stretch to say that players who can do these types of things qualify as incapable of learning timing, telegraphed animations or fight mechanics.

    You use the right tool for the job and in my experience, toughness is an excellent stat for condi builds, especially those with a poor power ratio. If you only deal 10-15% of your damage from power using Viper, then it's a no-brainer to take toughness for solo play. It will allow you to play more aggressively and stretch between defensive cooldowns where a glass build would be forced to play defensively, very possibly losing more damage than you gain from taking power stats!

    Here's a video to illustrate the point. I'm wearing Dire gear and my evasion is pretty solid. The combined effect allows me stay on offense the entire fight. My health stays above 66% despite no kiting, line of sight, healing, or rotating to water attunement. Using Viper stats vs. Dire those hits landing for 10-15% health per shot land for 25-30% health and you're forced to play defensively very quickly. The small amount of power damage gained by taking power/precision with this build is much less than the damage lost having to play defense and heal.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It has some uses although it’s not all that useful for general usage.

  • Kichwas.7152Kichwas.7152 Member ✭✭✭

    In any PvE content where the NPCs are not using the 'aggro on toughness' mechanic it can increase survivability a lot if you're not 'skilled' in timing dodges yet or if you're having latency issues.

    Soldiers is an ideal gear set for new players, especially if coming from something like WoW. Despite being a tab-target game fights in FFXIV are all about moving in and out of telegraphed AoEs... so FFXIV players can probably skip toughness. After that, graduate to Knights or Rabid, and then once you're fully dodging properly... you go berserk, vipers, or whatever fits your build...

    Before HoT I had high toughness builds on all professions. I didn't do as much DPS as others, but we didn't have a DPS meter so I didn't really fully know that also... I survived more than most other people though because the folks I was running with were, like me, coming from 'tab target' games and not good at getting out of the way of attacks. Over the years I started learning to dodge more. Now... the attacks that do hit me still take me down if I put on the old "knight's" set I used to use, so toughness has little value for me in most PvE now.

    In WvW where you're not being focused, just being attacked alongside your group - it can greatly increase your survival rate but it comes at the cost of giving up some DPS stat that may have been more useful to the group. I use it on a 'WvW roaming' build - if you're playing WvW solo, even when you end up with a zerg or a group they will often break up after each battle or they might all be in comms and suddenly port out on you... so having toughness makes things viable.

    Just say no to butt-flaps. | 光復香港 時代革命

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sifu.9745 said:
    Is Toughness a completely useless stat? I don't see any benefits for taking Toughness over any other stat. If i take a gear with 1000 Toughens, for example, i don't see for how much i get dmg reduced. 10%? 17%? 22%? Please, Anet, could you add the exact numbers? Why do i have to do a math by myself? We get exact numbers with ALL other stats, with Toughness being an exception for no reason.

    Lets take a look at Guardian Sword. With base 1000 Power the sword Auto attack deals 158 dmg (in PvP). With adding 1000 Power the dmg rises up to 315. The Dmg is doubled! We get exact number, not just random numbers.
    Lets look at Vitality: 500 Vitality adds 5000 health, 900 Precision gives about 42% critical chance etc. You can see a numbers rising up with any other stat added, with exception of Toughness.
    Now lets take a look at toughness: I take a gear with 900 toughness. The tooltip doesn't show for how much dmg reduction 900 Toughness gives. If i have 1000 base toughens (2167 armor) and i take 900 additional toughness i get 1900 toughness (3067 armor). Great, right? I am immortal now, right? Hmm, am i? I have no idea, because i can't see any dmg reduction numbers on my gear. So i have absolutely no idea how much is toughness worth in reality. I guess 900 toughness gives 15 -20% physical dmg reduction and that's it. But it's stupid that i have to guess about it. We should get exact numbers.

    In theory its as simple as this.(Competitive at the very least.)
    Toughness = Reduction in power damage
    Vitality= Reduction/protection from condi.

    Or at least thats what everyone loves to claim, honestly toughness should be rolled together with vitality and turned into something like "Survivability" or some such thing to make it so more stat-sets can have them incorporated. But I digress.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @Tyncale.1629 said:
    I think Toughness should mitigate Condi damage too.

    This would make an interesting change to WvW at least, since the most popular builds in that mode seem to be only made to spam AoE condi in areas.

    I can't even count how many times I've seen massive blobs of guilds in WvW running around and stacking purely to spam AoE condis and heals, probably trying to never die and get easy kills from the players that fall for these condi traps.

    The mainstays for damage in WvW are still Hammer Rev and Power Scourge, still. Condi zerg comps do exist but they can have a hard time against enemy groups with a lot of cleansing from Scrappers, Spellbreakers, and Tempests in support roles. (Or you can play Burn Guard solo and try to catch people with lots of burning from reflects.) It's really not a condition meta overall, despite how much power condition builds enjoy in WvW thanks to gear with Expertise on it.

    Roaming, too, you'll see some bunkery condition builds (Torment Renegade/Herald, Fear Core Necro, sometimes a Mirage, Thief, or Druid as well) but they haven't edged out normal Power burst builds for Holo, Soulbeast, Daredevil/Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Sword-Sword Herald, or Reaper.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @Tyncale.1629 said:
    I think Toughness should mitigate Condi damage too.

    This would make an interesting change to WvW at least, since the most popular builds in that mode seem to be only made to spam AoE condi in areas.

    I can't even count how many times I've seen massive blobs of guilds in WvW running around and stacking purely to spam AoE condis and heals, probably trying to never die and get easy kills from the players that fall for these condi traps.

    The mainstays for damage in WvW are still Hammer Rev and Power Scourge, still. Condi zerg comps do exist but they can have a hard time against enemy groups with a lot of cleansing from Scrappers, Spellbreakers, and Tempests in support roles. (Or you can play Burn Guard solo and try to catch people with lots of burning from reflects.) It's really not a condition meta overall, despite how much power condition builds enjoy in WvW thanks to gear with Expertise on it.

    Roaming, too, you'll see some bunkery condition builds (Torment Renegade/Herald, Fear Core Necro, sometimes a Mirage, Thief, or Druid as well) but they haven't edged out normal Power burst builds for Holo, Soulbeast, Daredevil/Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Sword-Sword Herald, or Reaper.

    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

    No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

  • the purpose of toughness depends on the format you are playing. In general there are two things important to be succesfull.
    1: Stay alive
    2: kill your oponent as quickly as possible

    The first is important to touchness. However. It is a yes or no condition. If you stay alive you done it. If you die, you didnt do enough. The second factor is more subjective as more is always better.

    In general PvE without roles. Each class has to bring their own defense, but base armor, number 5 healing skill and good dodging is enough to stay alive. So thoughness is absolutly useless.

    In high end content like t4 fracals and raids it is different as you have roles and some roles require defense. As explained by others, toughness is part of this, but not the only factor.

    In WvW and sPvP it can be usefull as well, but again, when you invest in toughness, you lack it in DPS.

    On top of it, there is a lot of thoughness ignoring damage, that isn't ignored by other stats like vitality and healing power.

    I personally always thought it to be an issue with the combat system of this game. They removed the holy trinity and this is good, but it is pretty flat now. I would like to see them atleast experiment with some systems to counter this. On of it could be an environment effect during some boss fights that your dps is decreased by healthloss. This would make toughness usefull for maintaining DPS.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    This is a very helpful post. I wonder how the numbers would look like with Sentinel's instead of Soldier's. (Despite player's claims that tank builds aren't useful in this game, they are used by Commanders, so the information is still appreciated.)

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 16k hours, 27k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Tempest & Alisha Kei/Druid(PvE), Terakura/Spellbreaker & Kitty Koume/Reaper(WvW)
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I won't say there aren't better players out there, but I'd say it's a stretch to say that players who can do these types of things qualify as incapable of learning timing, telegraphed animations or fight mechanics.

    Yeah I second that as well.
    While it is possible to facetank a lot of things in the game with tank builds there are many things that you will still need to use active defences against to survive.

    Being it's Halloween the Lab Horror is an easy example of that.
    I can tank it with one of my builds, even solo kill it but even with an extremely tanky build it's not possible to facetank it because of it's insanely high damage.
    I have to rely on dodging, shroud tanking, Dark Bond (Necro exclusive protect), CC and backing in and out of his attack range constantly to avoid taking as much direct damage as possible.. as well as lifesteal to recover the damage I do take.
    The tanky stats are more or less only useful so that I can survive a few hits and not get one shot like he does to most other players, plus I've found it useful for pulling his Aggro too so I can lure him away from a group when he does one of his show up and screw everyone trying to kill the Lich or Viscount moments lol

    @Khisanth.2948 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Plus they scale with the number of players fighting them which increases their level and stats and even gives them access to new skills and abilities etc.

    Pretty sure that was never implemented.

    Enemy Scaling? oh most definitely, that's always been in the game.
    It might not seem like much of a thing today with so much powercreep but it's definitely there.

    Against other players you maybe hitting one player for say 1000 damage but you might hit another for only 400.. because they have a much higher armour stat total than the first one you hit.

    Also Protection.

    Aye Protection also a factor though that can be ripped off if you got the right skills.
    There's others too such as Dark Bond which is basically another form of protection that can only be accessed by Necromancers.
    Not sure if ti stacks with protection though and it's circumstantial but it exists.

    As for is toughness useless?
    I have to say from many years of experience no.. it's definitely not useless but you may not find it incredibly useful just on it's own.
    Most people will combine toughness with Vitality to make really tanky builds as the two stats do work really good together, specially if they are backed up with sustained healing either by yourself or another player.
    You can make some very tanky builds in this game using defensive stats like toughness.

    It depends on what you are doing. In high end PvE the damage is often so high that it doesn't help much. You can be stacking layers of damage reduction and stuff will still hit for massive damage so the best defense is to not get hit. Additionally there are attacks which are linked to fight specific mechanics that are going to be guaranteed kills if you don't do the mechanic. Toughness isn't useful against those either.

    Evade, blindness, aegis and to a lesser degree weakness(due to lower reliability) are much cheaper and effective in most cases than investing in toughness. Biggest difference is that those are all active defenses while toughness is completely passive.

    Yeah you're talking more about raids now right?
    I would certainly agree it has very minor uses there specially because of the one shot mechanics, outside of intentionally pulling enemy aggro it has no real use there at all.
    Strikes, Fractals and Dungeons though it has good use, you can play Tanks quite well in those modes and I have done for many years.. except for Strikes since they are new, but tanky builds can have a use there if they're designed more for support purposes, healing, buffing reviving etc

    Active defences are going to be part of any good tank build as well, Tanks do still need to dodge on occasion as I mentioned in the first part of this response with my Lab Horror example, Other factors such as sustain, protection, weakness, blinds, blocks etc are all good and useful to tanks as well.
    While you can facetank a lot of things in this game you can't facetank everything so active defences are something we do definitely use quite often, at least I speak for myself anyway.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hannelore.8153 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    This is a very helpful post. I wonder how the numbers would look like with Sentinel's instead of Soldier's. (Despite player's claims that tank builds aren't useful in this game, they are used by Commanders, so the information is still appreciated.)

    Sentinel instead of Soldier will add 420 Vitality or 4200 health compared to Soldier.

    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits
    Sentinel Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 25455 health, 7.56 hits

    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits
    Sentinel Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 29732 health, 8.83 hits

    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits
    Sentinel Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 33022 health, 9.8 hits

    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits
    Sentinel Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 25455 health, 7.84 hits

    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits
    Sentinel Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 29732 health, 9.15 hits

    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits
    Sentinel Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 25455 health, 8.23 hits

    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits
    Sentinel Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 29732 health, 9.6 hits

    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits
    Sentinel Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 33022 health, 10.67 hits

    Interesting notes:
    Sentinel low health (Elementalist, Guardian, Thief) reach same health as Soldier medium health (Mesmer, Ranger, Engineer, Revenant) (25455 vs 25532)
    Sentinel medium health has 1000 more health than Soldier high health (29732 vs 28822)

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

    No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

    People dont run that in WvW except maybe for Youtube laughtracks, its not something they commonly run.

    There are very few non-bunker viable condi builds in WvW because none of them can really compete with the insane damage of pure power builds stacked by zerging. Dire/trailblazer has been the only truly viable armor set for many years and it only works 1v1 and very small scale. Anything above 5 people is either power builds or minstrel supports, because the enemy run power builds and minstrel supports as well. Hell I've seen a literal 50/50 ratio on supports in 10 man groups, giving everyone a pocket firebrand or pocket scrapper. Unless you are really good at pulling out people (not that easy with perma-stab and all boons up) or they are really bad at it, condi barely even scratch those groups because it's cleansed as soon as it's applied.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

    No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

    You mean this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Burn_Guard
    Which is relying heavily on dropping Wall of Reflection in chokes to apply its damage, and can be most easily countered by pushing in melee (your own Firebrands drop their Resistance fields and the spinny sword, which is their hardest direct condi application, does nothing during the first critical parts of the engagement).

    A PvE-style Condibrand like the one you posted is dead meat in WvW: you're a fragile porcelain doll with no mobility that needs to be in melee range to apply your big burn stacks.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

    (Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

    X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

    If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

    It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

    However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

    If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

    In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

    (Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

    X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

    If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

    It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

    However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

    If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

    In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

    You are right, Toughness amplifies Healing while Vitality makes you need more Healing instead. I made a comparison between Vitality and Toughness as passive stats because it's not really possible to include all factors in, like active defenses and healing. In the same example you gave above, Toughness wouldn't help the Elementalist if they were hit by condition damage. I took a fresh level 80 Elementalist with green damage gear (and some blue) to Cursed Shore, slotted Signet of Restoration and I was invulnerable, I could out heal even level 80 Risen just using the passive healing. It's why an Elementalist with Cleric gear could solo the Spider Queen in Ascalonian Catacombs while afk. But I think it was too much to include in my calculations

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

    (Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

    X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

    If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

    It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

    However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

    If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

    In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

    You are right, Toughness amplifies Healing while Vitality makes you need more Healing instead. I made a comparison between Vitality and Toughness as passive stats because it's not really possible to include all factors in, like active defenses and healing. In the same example you gave above, Toughness wouldn't help the Elementalist if they were hit by condition damage. I took a fresh level 80 Elementalist with green damage gear (and some blue) to Cursed Shore, slotted Signet of Restoration and I was invulnerable, I could out heal even level 80 Risen just using the passive healing. It's why an Elementalist with Cleric gear could solo the Spider Queen in Ascalonian Catacombs while afk. But I think it was too much to include in my calculations

    Bigger picture the action happens in smaller intervals based upon the relationship between many variables, not least of which available defensive cooldowns and their cadence compared to the more impactful enemy attacks of a given encounter. In this context, you only need to survive so many seconds in order to "stretch" to the next cooldown and avoid that which must be avoided in order to sustain.

    In our comparison, the value of vitality is artificially inflated in relation to toughness by the fact that we are essentially assuming both builds fail to sustain and die within a number of hits. However, how many hits one may sustain before succumbing is usually not relevant within the time intervals we're considering (e.g. The vitality build sustaining for 12.5 seconds before succumbing doesn't really matter if I only need to survive 6 seconds for a defense cooldown that will allow me to survive into the next interval).

    Consider the video I linked. My health stays above 66% the entire fight due to the combined impact of active defense and passive healing and damage mitigation. While a certain health cushion is required to avoid forcing me into playing defensively, strictly speaking I only really needed about a third of my total health. In other words, I could have succeeded with no additional vitality at all.

    On the other hand, toughness reduced every bit of power damage taken. Clearly, I would have succeeded with less toughness than I had, but there is likely a toughness value at which I would have been forced to play more defensively in order to sustain. Up until that point, toughness is useful.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    My rule of thumb is: "I'm getting insta-downed a bit too often" = add a moderate amount of Vitality, "I want to absorb a ton of punishment, just straight-up solo brawl with champions and stuff" = add a lot of Toughness, a moderate amount of Vitality, and make sure you have Protection uptime and condi cleanse, possibly also Healing Power depending on the build.

    Part of that is just that it's really easy to get "a moderate amount of Vitality" on otherwise offensively-oriented gear(Marauder's).

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 19, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

    No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

    People dont run that in WvW except maybe for Youtube laughtracks, its not something they commonly run.

    There are very few non-bunker viable condi builds in WvW because none of them can really compete with the insane damage of pure power builds stacked by zerging. Dire/trailblazer has been the only truly viable armor set for many years and it only works 1v1 and very small scale. Anything above 5 people is either power builds or minstrel supports, because the enemy run power builds and minstrel supports as well. Hell I've seen a literal 50/50 ratio on supports in 10 man groups, giving everyone a pocket firebrand or pocket scrapper. Unless you are really good at pulling out people (not that easy with perma-stab and all boons up) or they are really bad at it, condi barely even scratch those groups because it's cleansed as soon as it's applied.

    It may be commonly run or not commonly run. What I said here is that I find it extremely boring when the bunker condi builds are used to create a stalemate situation (as described in detail in my previous post in this thread) where both sides are unwilling to initiate the fight. I find this happens a lot between large blob fights involving guilds.

    Also as I stated in my previous post I have no problem at all with countering such builds. As a roamer, I have to often initiate such fights by myself because others seem to be unable or unwilling to do it themselves. Which is why I would find it interesting for WvW if such changes like the quote I made in my initial post were done.

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Atomos.7593 said:
    I think that condi builds (even the AoE focused ones) that are not purely bunker based are fine. I have no problems countering them on my elementalist, necromancer or warrior, or just simply avoiding the AoE condi traps.

    Here I'm referring exclusively to the AoE condi skills that can be easily spammed in large groups in tight areas, sometimes resulting in a virtual stalemate between both sides where each side is too afraid to run in and initiate a fight because there are too many AoE condi effects blocking the only path. Some classic examples of areas in WvW where this frequently occurs are in the ogre camp and dredge tunnel entrances/exits.

    Perhaps these kinds of situations were not intended by the devs with how the skills currently work, but this is the end result anyway. IMO these resultant stalemate situations are extremely boring and require little skill.

    You mean Wells and Marks? Those are mostly Power damage.

    No. Firebrands are a good example of a class that has a lot of AoE condi damage skills such as in this build.

    You mean this: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_Burn_Guard
    Which is relying heavily on dropping Wall of Reflection in chokes to apply its damage, and can be most easily countered by pushing in melee (your own Firebrands drop their Resistance fields and the spinny sword, which is their hardest direct condi application, does nothing during the first critical parts of the engagement).

    A PvE-style Condibrand like the one you posted is dead meat in WvW: you're a fragile porcelain doll with no mobility that needs to be in melee range to apply your big burn stacks.

    Like I said in my previous post, I know it can be countered and actively do it myself. That's not what I was talking about in this thread, as I have clarified in my previous post here in case it wasn't clear enough.

    To make it even clearer that I have no difficulty countering such builds I'll describe a fight I had 1v1 with a firebrand guard yesterday on my scourge necro: While I was solo roaming and trying to capture a camp, the firebrand sneaked up behind and attacked me. It barely scratched me but since the player seemed to be keen on defending the camp I started fighting them. I pulled them away from the npcs to an open field fight where we had some fun.

    I even intentionally reduced my health to below 20% a couple of times with necro self-bleed and sacrifice skills in order to make the fight more interesting. As soon as I realized that the player was a firebrand using AoE condi skills (probably thinking that I wouldn't see these effects and would die in them), I started to actively dodge out of these areas. This worked so well that eventually I went back up to max health again. Unfortunately someone else came then and ended the 1v1 fight we were having by killing the player.

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    An interesting idea thrown around a lot is that Vitality is good, while Toughness is bad. Let's do an objective comparison.

    Using a Toughness as a Minor stat (for example Soldier gear instead of Berserker) provides similar benefit to having a permanent Protection boon. To be exact, Light armor users take 33.7% less damage, Medium takes 31.2% less damage and Heavy take 29.7% less damage in Soldier than in Berserker gear, so using Toughness on Light armor is more effective than using it on Heavy, which is as expected since Heavy armor provides more defense, but the difference is very small.

    Now let's see how Vitality works. Low health professions have 11645 health, Medium health professions have 15922 health and High health professions have 19212
    Using Vitality as Minor (+961) we get Low: 21255 (82% increase), Medium: 25532 (60% increase), High: 28822 (50% increase), just like with Toughness, the higher the base health, the lower the effect of adding Vitality.

    So which is better? Vitality or Toughness? Let's do a small comparison, assuming a 10 million damage hit and see how long each profession will last. Due to how relative numbers work, the results would be the same no matter the damage taken so it's accurate.

    Berseker Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.29 hits
    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits
    Soldier Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.3 hits

    Berseker Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.13 hits
    Toughness Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.73 hits
    Vitality Mesmer: 5084 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.02 hits
    Soldier Mesmer: 3369 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.58 hits

    Berseker Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 19212 health, 3.78 hits
    Toughness Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 19212 health, 5.7 hits
    Vitality Necromancer: 5084 damage per hit, 28822 health, 5.67 hits
    Soldier Necromancer: 3369 damage per hit, 28822 health, 8.55 hits

    Berserker Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.47 hits
    Toughness Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.59 hits
    Vitality Thief: 4721 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.5 hits
    Soldier Thief: 3248 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.54 hits

    Berserker Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.37 hits
    Toughness Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 15922 health, 4.9 hits
    Vitality Ranger | Engineer: 4721 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.4 hits
    Soldier Ranger | Engineer: 3248 damage per hit, 25532 health, 7.86 hits

    Berserker Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 11645 health, 2.64 hits
    Toughness Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.76 hits
    Vitality Guardian: 4403 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.83 hits
    Soldier Guardian: 3094 damage per hit, 21255 health, 6.87 hits

    Berserker Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 15922 health, 3.62 hits
    Toughness Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 15922 health, 5.15 hits
    Vitality Revenant: 4403 damage per hit, 25532 health, 5.8 hits
    Soldier Revenant: 3094 damage per hit, 25532 health, 8.25 hits

    Berserker Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 19212 health, 4.36 hits
    Toughness Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 19212 health, 6.2 hits
    Vitality Warrior: 4403 damage per hit, 28822 health, 6.55 hits
    Soldier Warrior: 3094 damage per hit, 28822 health, 9.32 hits

    The interesting results from the above show which profession is the hardest to kill with passive defense alone. This is the list:
    Elementalist
    Thief
    Guardian
    Mesmer
    Ranger | Engineer
    Revenant
    Necromancer
    Warrior

    It's quite obvious that Health/Vitality play a more important role than Armor/Toughness. Also Necromancer is the ONLY Profession that gets more from Toughness than Vitality (who knew right?)

    The problem with passive sustain comparisons is that they lack any practical context with which one could determine which stat is actually better for a build in practice. This is why:

    (Max Health/(DPS - X) = Time to Live

    X = the combined value of DPS mitigated via both active and passive defense including effects like healing and barrier.

    If X is = or > incoming DPS, then you can sustain indefinitely.

    It is impossible to quantify the impact of active defense or the variable rate of incoming damage in a way that could be applied to all scenarios. What is the value of dodging an attack without knowing how much damage the specific attack dealt, your current health total, and any number of other variables that apply to a real scenario?

    However, to continue along the lines of the simplistic comparison, consider the impact of healing. What happens if we assume that the number of "hits" the elementalist in the passive comparison can sustain is equal to the number of seconds they have to live?

    Toughness Elementalist: 3369 damage per hit, 11645 health, 3.46 hits
    Vitality Elementalist: 5084 damage per hit, 21255 health, 4.18 hits

    If, for example, I can heal for 3.4k/s then the toughness elementalist can sustain an infinite number of hits as each hit is mitigated by a slightly greater amount of healing. However, the vitality elementalist is still taking about 1.7k DPS that is not being mitigated by healing and will now survive for about 12.5 seconds.

    In our simplified example, healing-per-second = X. In a real scenario, the amount of healing required is less all damage mitigated via other means, active and passive. Without accounting for X, it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison between toughness and vitality.

    For what it's worth, I mostly prioritize healing power, vitality and toughness on my elementalist for a more defensive build. This combined with frequently using run speed buffs and debuffs on enemies, I find that I can survive in situations where normally it would seem unrealistic to be able to do so. It often takes 4+ players in WvW to kill me solo on my elementalist when I use this type of build.

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Toughness has a huge value, but not alone. It acts as perma passive protection boon, except the % damage reduction value depends on amount of toughness you have vs amount of armor you had prior to taking it. If you like numbers better here is a simple formula for you:

    how much damage reduction my new toughness investment gives me??

    1. what amount of my current armor is the new toughness gain?
    2. add it to armor.
    3. reverse the number (divide 1 by the total new armor value)

    example:

    I have 2k armor prior to equipping gear that will give me 1k tougness total. How much damage reduction will I get?
    1k tougness is half of your armor prior to adding it. So after adding it your armor will be 1.5 of starter value.
    Therefore the damage you take will be reverse of that - 1/1.5 = 2/3 of previous value.
    So that 1k tougness made you take 33% less damage prior to adding it.

    The value of tougness shines when combined with healing. Most healing skills don't heal based on amount of health you got. You can have 15k health, or go hog wild with vitality stat and get 30k....your heal skill will still heal for roughly 5-6k health...

    Toughness reduces damage taken - the wounds are smaller and your mediocre healing capacity can handle that much better than large wounds taken with little to no toughness...