Counterplay Ideas for Stealth

Stealth, as it currently stands is an unhealthy game mechanic. It is easily spammable, denies information in fights, allows for too safe repositioning, can be categorized as psuedo damage negation and breaks target locks. On top of that, in some cases, it is used to cover hacking.

The current option is revealed, which is not only limited, but in all cases but sic 'em is either placed on a weak skill, or costs a stunbreak. That also assumes you're not against a deadeye, which can remove revealed, and has access to attacks with longer range than any skill other than sic 'em that applies revealed.

My proposal is to rework stealth so that it is a boon, and therefore somewhat more easily removed. This way stealth builds can still exist, but have some viable counterplay options. Not every class will have an option for counter play, but thats probably alright (though this could open the avenue of having a boon strip on dragon hunter).

I'd like to hear more suggestions, because while stealth SHOULD remain in the game, it SHOULD NOT be so abundant with no viable counterplay mechanic. If it has accessible and not useless/god awful counterplay, then the amount of stealth in the game should be fine.

I don't know if I agree with your solution, but I definitely agree that stealth in GW2 is an awful design.

I assume you mean in PvP even though you didn't post in those forums? Stealth's wonderful in PvE. So long as they split the implementation and keep stealth loss in the PvP areas, go for it :) Unless you mean for it to behave exactly as it does now, only to count as a boon rather than its own buff, and the mobs don't boon strip us.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:I don't know if I agree with your solution, but I definitely agree that stealth in GW2 is an awful design.

Heh. When I first started playing this game I thought stealth would be a permanent thing until you entered combat, and once you enter combat you would have only 1 skill on a long cooldown to escape and stealth again, like it works in some other MMOs I played. The way stealth works in GW2 does not interest me at all and I don't think I will ever play thief because of this personal preference.

Dunno if it being a boon would really change much but I do agree this mechanic is awful and far too easily abused to annoy people and on occasion to hide players who are cheating.

I'd say the problem lies more with reveal.. mostly that there isn't enough of it and in a number of cases it can't even be used to de-stealth an enemy.Sic-Em is a prime example of that as it needs an active target to use and you cannot target a stealthed player in order to use it.And with thieves additional mobility access as well it is very easy for them to just run away until the debuff wears off while keeping you trapped in combat so they can come back and harass you to death, same tactic when they need to heal too.

Thieves just have too much access to cheap mechanics that are easy to abuse to make them expert trolls and pests.. and there's not enough counter play to that.And that's a bad thing for thieves too because it greatly hinders their potential to be anything else.. thus limiting their own viable build and playstyle diversity.Basically every thief you find is some form of stealthy, teleporty annoying harasser and that's all thief will ever really be so long as they have so much stealth and mobility access and everyone else lacks a good way to counter it.

My suggestion: Two versions of Stealth (Partial and Full), and a new buff "Observant".

Full Stealth works as Stealth currently does, though only a few skills will grant it. Partial Stealth works only on people some set distance away or more. Up close, you still see them. Observant allows you to see through Partial Stealth at full range (and maybe treats Full as Partial).

Observant would have to be given out sparingly, but I could see it being given to the Deadeye's kneel skill (after a 5 second delay), Engineer rocket turrets, and Rangers (somehow) as examples.

Deadeye being able to remove revealed I think should be changed but other than that stealth is fine, there are already many counters to stealth in WvW via traps, watch towers and sentry's.

@Teratus.2859 said:

Sic-Em is a prime example of that as it needs an active target to use and you cannot target a stealthed player in order to use it.And with thieves additional mobility access as well it is very easy for them to just run away until the debuff wears off while keeping you trapped in combat so they can come back and harass you to death, same tactic when they need to heal too.

Sic-em has a huge range though, and other classes already have aoe reveals...Also, it really does not matter if a thief is stealthed or not, they can always run away and reset the fight due to the mobility, dodge spam and invulnerability.

Man, its funny to see this still a problem. I used to complain vehemently in the old forums about stealth and thieves and its still the same as ever xD

At the current rate of balance patch attention, asking for any kind of big redesign is basically asking for a rush job followed by two-three years of clunky adjustments. Let's not.

Here's an easy fix for your frustration: Just make damage numbers pop up over your head when you hit someone in stealth so you don't have to stare at your skill bar or combat log. That'll bring the average player's ability to counterplay stealth up closer to the top players', without otherwise requiring massive rebalance.

@Vavume.8065 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

Sic-Em is a prime example of that as it needs an active target to use and you cannot target a stealthed player in order to use it.And with thieves additional mobility access as well it is very easy for them to just run away until the debuff wears off while keeping you trapped in combat so they can come back and harass you to death, same tactic when they need to heal too.

They do but most cases you'll be dealing with thieves spamming stealth is in single combat when they ambush you so you won't have any AoE reveal capability backing you up, you'll have to rely on whatever you own class is capable of in that regard.

Sic Em does have large range that's true but it's almost useless against thieves because they can just run away and outlast it, or in deadeye's case just remove it.. at least there is a short period where you can chase them down though and maybe get a few good hits in but it's not good enough.

Also, it really does not matter if a thief is stealthed or not, they can always run away and reset the fight due to the mobility, dodge spam and invulnerability.

That's actually part of the point, those are already exceptionally good capabilities that makes thieves formidable, plus they've got cleanses and stunbreaks on top of that to counter shutdown which is the only thing i've found that is really effective against them.. when it's successful.Adding stealth on top of that just makes them too OP in a lot of peoples eyes.

Much of this game's combat works on reading tells so you have a chance to react appropriately but stealth makes that impossible.. not a problem if you don't have much of it like Mesmers, but if you can jump in and out of it constantly like thieves can then it's just too much.

@Donari.5237 said:I assume you mean in PvP even though you didn't post in those forums? Stealth's wonderful in PvE. So long as they split the implementation and keep stealth loss in the PvP areas, go for it :) Unless you mean for it to behave exactly as it does now, only to count as a boon rather than its own buff, and the mobs don't boon strip us.

I mean in WvW and PvP. PvE balance is likely near perfect because of the attention PvE gets over PvP and WvW...

@Teratus.2859 said:I'd say the problem lies more with reveal.. mostly that there isn't enough of it and in a number of cases it can't even be used to de-stealth an enemy.Yeah. Like i said most reveal skills are either bad, or using it to apply reveal is a feels bad.

@Vavume.8065 said:Sic-em has a huge range though, and other classes already have aoe reveals...Also, it really does not matter if a thief is stealthed or not, they can always run away and reset the fight due to the mobility, dodge spam and invulnerability.

1) Sic 'em is on one class. The Aoe reveals aren't even half of DE's rifle range. and as someone stated before, some can't strip stealth. They're also otherwise very bad skills.2) No class should have the defensive power that thief has. It has insane mobility, options for stealth, and on condi builds they're THICC. Thats the issue as someone stated above.I'd say mesmer could stand to be hit, but having played both thief and mesmer, mesmer isn't as bad as thief.

Until they fix auto aim skills like rapid fire and stealth tracking. They wont be able to fix stealth combat. My suggestion would go the ESO approach. Slow fade into stealth instead of instant disappearance.

Nah, stealth is fine.

Ah, it's another PvP / WvW thread.

The counterplay for stealth is to bombard the area with AOEs, crowd-control, and generally either pen your foe in or have enough area denial (and conditions) that the lowest health pool in the game either wilts or is forced out of the fight. Just grab a necromancer or elementalist and you'll be fine. It's the same logic we had to use back in the days of Guild Wars 1.

As for PvP? Well, maybe the right option is to not try to be the hero, and just disengage.

Core thief, since release, has been focused on using stealth to amplify damage, inflict conditions, and generally get out of a fight -- precisely what you've described. It's an integral part of the class' offensive capabilities and one of their few true defenses (and a soft one, no less, as they have no terrestial blocking without using Daredevil; Deadeye and Smoke Screen only block projectiles).

Mesmers and Rangers have access to stealth as well (and the occasional scrapper engineer), and yet ironically enough, I've never heard any complaints about mesmers disappearing whole groups from a fight, nor anyone getting upset at a shortbow ranger.

But more than that, thief has one feature you can use to your advantage: initiative. Skills 2 through 5 cost initiative, and a lot of old "perma-stealth" builds relied on that -- do the same, by forcing your opponent to waste their attacks. A thief without initiative cannot react readily to a situation.

From the sound of things, you're attempting to fight your foe the same way you do others. Change tactics, rather than facing them reactively. Daredevil can only remove revealed twice in a fair span; let an ally wear down their stealth, then take them down. Besides, their range only exceeds your own when they're kneeling and have vastly reduced mobility.

@fluffdragon.15231) Yes bombard with AoEs in a 1v1. It doesn't matter because very few classes have 1500 range Aoes and shortbow and shadowstep exist.2) thief ok you can actualy disengage most PvP fights fair. But you can't escape the majority of WvW thief builds.3) I agree it should retain stealth. It should not have the ability to remove the ONLY counterplay mechanic AND have stealth essentially on command4) Mesmer veil lasts 2 seconds and PU doesn't apply itself to blobs and mass invis has a target cap and both have long CDs. Rangers have dashes through smoke scale field, celestial shadow, Longbow 3 and trapper rune. It does not have half as much stealth as thief. Scrapper is capped at 10 targets on stealth and thats all its elite does. It doesn't remove reveal, and it has a longer CD than shadow meld.5) Yes thief has No Cooldowns and with dagger offhand or D/P it has stealth on No Cooldown. Your tactic of forcing skills only applies to non-deadeye maleficent seven builds. Maleficent seven refills 7 initiative and gives a ton of boons. Couple that with permanent cripple uptime and unless you're a ranger you can't hit them, but they can hit you.

Isn't there a PvP section for this kind of thing? I'm sure you know the answer, so why are you here? I'm simply curious.

@Yggranya.5201 said:Isn't there a PvP section for this kind of thing? I'm sure you know the answer, so why are you here? I'm simply curious.

Its not just PvP, its PvP and WvW. I won't make 2 posts because I would like the comments that give ideas to be in one place

@jpsssss.7530 said:Stealth, as it currently stands is an unhealthy game mechanic. It is easily spammable, denies information in fights, allows for too safe repositioning, can be categorized as psuedo damage negation and breaks target locks. On top of that, in some cases, it is used to cover hacking.

The current option is revealed, which is not only limited, but in all cases but sic 'em is either placed on a weak skill, or costs a stunbreak. That also assumes you're not against a deadeye, which can remove revealed, and has access to attacks with longer range than any skill other than sic 'em that applies revealed.

My proposal is to rework stealth so that it is a boon, and therefore somewhat more easily removed. This way stealth builds can still exist, but have some viable counterplay options. Not every class will have an option for counter play, but thats probably alright (though this could open the avenue of having a boon strip on dragon hunter).

I'd like to hear more suggestions, because while stealth SHOULD remain in the game, it SHOULD NOT be so abundant with no viable counterplay mechanic. If it has accessible and not useless/god awful counterplay, then the amount of stealth in the game should be fine.

Stealth is fine as it is. There are more than enough counters.In pvp in stealth u cant contest a point + serval reaveal skills. In wvw just omg, all this reveal mechanics just lol + personal reveal + traps + ...In pve nobody cares anyway.

Maybe do not give everything and everybody stealth in the game.

• teef, should have acces to it
• mes, torch and gud
• ranger only by combofield not with LB
• holo hm nope
• trapper rune (DH/ranger) , ofc not
• ...

Stealth in PvP, specifically conquest, is fine as-is, to be honest. The maps are small enough that they're easy to follow if you know what they may do. Also stealthed targets don't cap points or do damage. It's in Deathmatch (2v2s, 3v3s) or WvW where stealth becomes an annoying target break or disguises movements on massive maps where the thief literally has more than 30,000 range to move around. This is where stealth gets problematic. Hitting them shouldn't fully reveal the thief. However, I believe that a thief that gets hit multiple times, should be revealed. There should be a stacking buff that, once at 25 stacks (or a stack number set by ANet for balance reasons) they're just revealed. Like how you can bump into a spy in TF2 or hit them with damage and make them flash visibly for a moment while they're cloaked. Something that does that ingame for a split second would give enough feedback to make it less annoying in WvW.

Every class (if not core, at least one elite spec) should get access to a new additional stealth skill. When entering into stealth yourself using said skill, all other players, enemies, who are stealthed are revealed [only to the player character] and have a bluish Aura. While stealthed the player gains access to a second-stage stealth ability that ends their stealth but reveals [to all players] other stealthed players (max 3) within 150 burst radius, dazing revealed enemy players/npcs/mobs, etc. but putting also 5 stacks of vulnerability on the player character. There could be more specific mechanics for each class. I don't play a stealth class (warrior), so honestly I don't know how viable the implementation of something like this would be, but I do know that stealth in PvP can be pretty annoying and it would be nice to have the option for a couple seconds of stealth in PvE. Maybe Cantha will give a "Shadow Warrior" elite spec or something. ;p

[Edited for clarity]

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@Donari.5237 said:I assume you mean in PvP even though you didn't post in those forums? Stealth's wonderful in PvE. So long as they split the implementation and keep stealth loss in the PvP areas, go for it :) Unless you mean for it to behave exactly as it does now, only to count as a boon rather than its own buff, and the mobs don't boon strip us.

I didn't even know pve was even meant to be balanced since it's all about killing brain dead ai with lots of health, and the ai dosnt complain lol so why do they focus on pve balance ?

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@Donari.5237 said:I assume you mean in PvP even though you didn't post in those forums? Stealth's wonderful in PvE. So long as they split the implementation and keep stealth loss in the PvP areas, go for it :) Unless you mean for it to behave exactly as it does now, only to count as a boon rather than its own buff, and the mobs don't boon strip us.

If they did focus on PvE, then PvP balance wouldn't ever screw over PvE players. Since that isn't true, what are you talking about? PvP combined with PvE screws over PvE every time, as proven by all games that have this kind of idiocy.

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@"Yggranya.5201" said:Isn't there a PvP section for this kind of thing? I'm sure you know the answer, so why are you here? I'm simply curious.

If this is a "problem" in both of them, I'm sure most people who are interested in PvP will visit both.

@Yggranya.5201 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@Donari.5237 said:I assume you mean in PvP even though you didn't post in those forums? Stealth's wonderful in PvE. So long as they split the implementation and keep stealth loss in the PvP areas, go for it :) Unless you mean for it to behave exactly as it does now, only to count as a boon rather than its own buff, and the mobs don't boon strip us.

@jpsssss.7530 said:

@Yggranya.5201 said:Isn't there a PvP section for this kind of thing? I'm sure you know the answer, so why are you here? I'm simply curious.

And what excatly gets screwed over in pve? its not competitive at all. i dont get why pve balance is a thing.