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  • @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    Blame D&D for it.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2020

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

    But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

    The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

    But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

    The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

    So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

    If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

  • Grand Marshal.4098Grand Marshal.4098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

    If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

    Veri interesting idea! I would not mind that at all! A more magically inclined warrior using staff to create a set of polearms without them having to exist! This would mix very well with my 'demonslayer' spec i Had in mind which has some access to magic like demon-hunters from wow. Actually any idea can work with this variant of a weapon. Some choreography in the animations would be appreciated (and I think this is what most people want wehn they speak of staff warrio, but they describe it like Daredevil).

    Anyway, how would you change adrenaline for a new spec? The only interesting change I've come up with is 3 different bursts (animation and effects) that if carried out as a combo give some reward to the player. And with such a weapon, it would make sense.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    If they are able to create effect on the necro staff that make it look like a scythe when using a skill, they can create effects on warrior staff to make it look like whatever they want. Imo, it could even be interesting visually, the warrior shaping the tip of it's staff with each skill (A sword edge for a slash, a spear tip for a thrust, a hammer head for a bash... etc.), it would certainly give a different vibe than revenant and dardevil's staff.

    We already have multiple staff skins that are actual spears and many others that could easily be used for poking (like the Adamant Guard Staff or the four Legion Staves from the Forging steel mission), so we don't need to have another magical warrior, just to have some Staff poking.

    Of course there would also be silly things like Warriors poking with Kasmeer's Staff.
    But those are non-issues with Daredevil or Revenant, so they would be non-issues for Warrior as well.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:
    Anyway, how would you change adrenaline for a new spec? The only interesting change I've come up with is 3 different bursts (animation and effects) that if carried out as a combo give some reward to the player. And with such a weapon, it would make sense.

    Personally, I'd like the next e-spec to not affect the base burst mechanic. I'd like it to sacrifice the ability to chose the secondary weaponset, replacing it with a banner/standard having it's own set of skills and burst. With the staff and banner this would mean 10 new weapon skills and 2 new bursts added with this e-spec.

  • VocalThought.9835VocalThought.9835 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet give an introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

    The main problem for me is: why should Anet make a systemic change like allowing offhand weapons in the mainhand if they don't have to?

    All classes still have enough weapons open for elite specs without them having to use such tricks to artificially increase the pool of weapons they can chose from.

  • @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    Listen to your logic... you found something wrong with people wanting to use a weapon in their main hand that can use in their offhand? I can understand the other way around, but this makes no sense to me. I can understand not needing to put a torch or war horn in the main hand, but if someone had a cool idea for it, I would support it.

  • @Kodama.6453 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet give an introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

    The main problem for me is: why should Anet make a systemic change like allowing offhand weapons in the mainhand if they don't have to?

    All classes still have enough weapons open for elite specs without them having to use such tricks to artificially increase the pool of weapons they can chose from.

    "Systemic Change"? I guess I don't see making a "main hand only" or an "offhand weapon only" dual welded a systemic change. I can understand if you said aquatic weapons, but this is simply having the weapon in another hand like most of their other weapons. The only weapon that would need more care would be a main hand Shield due to positioning and stowing.

    The reason for allowing these weapons to be used would be to stick with the theme of the profession. If any profession was to use a Scepter in an off hand or a focus in the main hand, would be a spell caster and if anyone would be able to use a Shield in their main hand would definitely be the Warrior.

    The point of thinking of off hand weapons as a main hand option doesn't have to be taboo or against a cardinal rule. It's adding to a creative process without straying too far from what's implemented. I think offhand/main hand only weapons are more of a "happen-stance" than something that ANet was focused on having.

  • VocalThought.9835VocalThought.9835 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2020

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

    But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

    The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

    There is only one weapon I can see a Warrior not using, which is Scepter. I would perfer that they also keep Warriors away from using Short Bows, but every other weapon should be on the table. I think with Focus, they should have had SpellBreakers use that instead of Daggers, but I'm hoping they give each elite an extra weapon to use. If they had focus they could have one skill that buffs themselves and another skill that may cause enemies to have conditions, almost like how their Meditations skills are.

  • @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Grand Marshal.4098 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    I agree. When I see people requesting double hammer warrior, or double gs etc, I get dissapointed cause it is utterly stupid and as a warrior main I would never touch the spec.

    But I'm also not fond of 'pistolier' warrior or 'staff' warrior. Where's peoples' creativity? That's Thief and Daredevil already... But i respect everyone's opinion in the end.

    The issue with warrior is that he already got a lot of weapons. Apart from shortbow, focus, scepter, pistol and staff there is no option left. Focus and scepter feel unlikely and it seem that subcousciously nobody want shortbow. Staff is a way for players that root for polearm to get a substitute while pistol just feel "right" (which is probably charr's propaganda since their army heavily invest into technology).

    So Staff used as a spear in land just so Anet doesnt have to code the actual spear as a land weapon? Sounds like something cheap they can pull. But not martial arts staff. Revenant and Daredevil already give off that vibe with how they swing the staff.

    I think they can easily use Staff as a Pole-arm or Halberd instead of a bo or quater. I'll even be ok if they use it like a javelin. As someone said already, they have so many skins, they can pull it off.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

    I'm using 'large shield' to distinguish from things like bucklers - something which I'd hoped would be evident from the context since I talked about weaponised bucklers in an earlier post. Broadly speaking, any shield that reaches the neck in the standard Guild Wars 2 shield stance is big enough for the observations I've made to apply... and that's the overwhelming majority of the shield skins in the game. Meanwhile, there are actually a few focus skins that would make for decent fancy bucklers, like Mist Lord, Stormcaller, and Dark Wing. It's not a matter of "okay, the larger shields are large enough that trying to dual-wield them will create the problems I've described", it's that pretty much ALL of the existing shield skins are big enough to block vision, get in each other's way, and otherwise be more awkward than it's worth.

    Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

    Closest thing I could see to 'dual shields' actually making sense would be to use daggers, give them defensive skills, and have a skin that resembles weaponised bucklers. Give the profession special animations so that they wield the daggers the right way up for defensive use rather than icepick grip, similar to how thief and revenant have a special staff grip (this grip could possibly also be retroactively added to elementalists who use daggers purely as casting implements). Historically, daggers, sais, and similar weapons were often used as parrying weapons (particularly in situations where carrying large shields was impractical - a parrying dagger is easier to carry and hide than a buckler, let alone a larger shield), so the defensive skills would still make sense pretty much regardless of which dagger skin you used. And if this was done with a profession which already has a shield offhand, you could still combine it with a large shield in the off hand if you wanted to.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

    With that line of thought, hardly any weapon would made a decent conventional weapon, with all the over-sized skins and all the floaty parts.
    I don't think real life conventions, other than "this is one-handed and this is two-handed", should be applied to fantasy games.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

    With that line of thought, hardly any weapon would made a decent conventional weapon, with all the over-sized skins and all the floaty parts.
    I don't think real life conventions, other than "this is one-handed and this is two-handed", should be applied to fantasy games.

    Eh. I don't disagree that some of the skins are a bit over-the-top, but I think there's a distinction between hitting someone with a sword, even if it's a sword that's comically overlarge, held together only be magic, or overengineered to the point of being completely impractical in real life, and using something like a bell, cup, doll, scroll, or flower as your primary weapon. The focus class is pretty much a grab-bag of pretty much anything that could be held that doesn't fit into another category - the point is that while there are certainly some focuses that have a buckler-esque look which can work well if you want a 'mage knight'-esque look, I wouldn't build an elite specialisation around the idea that focuses are bucklers.

    I might, however, see a specialisation built around the idea of daggers being defensive weapons, and give them a few skins that are essentially weaponised bucklers.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:
    There is only one weapon I can see a Warrior not using, which is Scepter. I would perfer that they also keep Warriors away from using Short Bows, but every other weapon should be on the table. I think with Focus, they should have had SpellBreakers use that instead of Daggers, but I'm hoping they give each elite an extra weapon to use. If they had focus they could have one skill that buffs themselves and another skill that may cause enemies to have conditions, almost like how their Meditations skills are.

    I think everything could be a weapon in a warrior's hands, even the scepter.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    Listen to your logic... you found something wrong with people wanting to use a weapon in their main hand that can use in their offhand? I can understand the other way around, but this makes no sense to me. I can understand not needing to put a torch or war horn in the main hand, but if someone had a cool idea for it, I would support it.

    Of course you and countless others don’t understand. You’re talking about a significant change to the game with weapon classification.

    It’s one thing to want something interesting but at least be a little realistic about it.

  • @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

    I'm using 'large shield' to distinguish from things like bucklers - something which I'd hoped would be evident from the context since I talked about weaponised bucklers in an earlier post. Broadly speaking, any shield that reaches the neck in the standard Guild Wars 2 shield stance is big enough for the observations I've made to apply... and that's the overwhelming majority of the shield skins in the game. Meanwhile, there are actually a few focus skins that would make for decent fancy bucklers, like Mist Lord, Stormcaller, and Dark Wing. It's not a matter of "okay, the larger shields are large enough that trying to dual-wield them will create the problems I've described", it's that pretty much ALL of the existing shield skins are big enough to block vision, get in each other's way, and otherwise be more awkward than it's worth.

    Of course, focus skins also have the problem that most focus skins don't look like they'd make decent conventional weapons or bucklers, so I wouldn't consider dual-wielding focii to be a suitable approach either.

    Closest thing I could see to 'dual shields' actually making sense would be to use daggers, give them defensive skills, and have a skin that resembles weaponised bucklers. Give the profession special animations so that they wield the daggers the right way up for defensive use rather than icepick grip, similar to how thief and revenant have a special staff grip (this grip could possibly also be retroactively added to elementalists who use daggers purely as casting implements). Historically, daggers, sais, and similar weapons were often used as parrying weapons (particularly in situations where carrying large shields was impractical - a parrying dagger is easier to carry and hide than a buckler, let alone a larger shield), so the defensive skills would still make sense pretty much regardless of which dagger skin you used. And if this was done with a profession which already has a shield offhand, you could still combine it with a large shield in the off hand if you wanted to.

    Since Warrior's already use daggers for an elite, and already uses a Shield offensively in thier offhand, they could just give them another shield to be used in their main hand with an new shield skin that more suited to what Kratos would use in "God of War". Heck they could make a glass shield skin or an energy skin. I don't care about the skin personally, but they could do it because any Shield would do. I'm not suggesting other professions use the shield in the main hand, and with warrior basically already using most weapons, the shield in his main hand, I feel, is fitting to, especially since he already has skills with off hand Shield that would compliment a fisticuffs style of fighting that I'm suggesting with a main hand Shield.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:
    Since Warrior's already use daggers for an elite, and already uses a Shield offensively in thier offhand, they could just give them another shield to be used in their main hand with an new shield skin that more suited to what Kratos would use in "God of War". Heck they could make a glass shield skin or an energy skin. I don't care about the skin personally, but they could do it because any Shield would do. I'm not suggesting other professions use the shield in the main hand, and with warrior basically already using most weapons, the shield in his main hand, I feel, is fitting to, especially since he already has skills with off hand Shield that would compliment a fisticuffs style of fighting that I'm suggesting with a main hand Shield.

    It's probably a misunderstanding, I think what's important related to "shield mainhand" is that there exist traits that work based on whether the weapon in off-hand can be used as a main hand weapon or not (Arms's traitline: dual wielding). Which mean that there is an existing list of weapons (shield/focus/torch/warhorn) that is coded to only be used as off-hand weapon. ANet trying to put those weapons on main hand might break the game architecture.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2020

    Generally speaking, when I come across 'dual shields', it's in the context of guardians or both rather than Warriors specifically, so I was talking in generalities. Warriors do have an issue that most of the non-spellcaster weapons are already taken. My observations still apply, though, and like Dadnir points out, there may be technical considerations in play.

    Personally, I'd still consider pistol or staff to be better options, although the exact approach might well depend on the theme of the elite.

    (Incidentally, the weapon that you're currently supposed to combine with shield for a 'brawling' style is probably mace, since MH mace gives you a daze, a block, and the adrenaline skill is a stun.)

  • JohnWater.5760JohnWater.5760 Member ✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    Dual Shield has the same energy as dual Scepter.
    Doesn't fit GW worlds

    This is the exact same argument people gave for mounts.

    I'm not this person, I always wanted mounts.
    And it came much better than I expected.

  • JohnWater.5760JohnWater.5760 Member ✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Off-hand weapons won’t be main-hand and two-handed weapons won’t be dual wielded.

    What are peoples fascination with this ridiculous concept?

    I agree. The game never gave a chance for this to happen, it has enough weapons to distribute yet, even the Warrior who has more weapons that everyone can still have more.
    Off-hand doesn't need to be main-hand,
    two-handed doesn't need to be dual wielded,
    underwater doesn't need to be terrestrial.

  • All of these ideas and NO ONE suggested giving the Guardian 2 pistols and calling them Sheriff?

  • Tuco.2419Tuco.2419 Member ✭✭✭

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Delita Silverburg.8632 said:
    We need a unarmed/clawed monk profession imo.

    Maybe warrior gets another melee specialization that uses dual Foci as fist weapons.
    Imagine punching people while dual-wielding Binding of Ipos!

    Dual Shields!!

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Runiir.6425 said:
    All of these ideas and NO ONE suggested giving the Guardian 2 pistols and calling them Sheriff?

    Sheriff.... in an Asian setting... whut?

  • hatsamu.4327hatsamu.4327 Member ✭✭
    edited December 9, 2020

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @VocalThought.9835 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    I've seen it. I've also seen some very detailed analyses of it.

    One large shield is good. Two large shields tend to get in the way of attacking with either, and give you a large blind zone around you that makes it hard to defend yourself. Like I said, a lot of people who haven't trained in fighting with a large shield underestimate how much of a blind spot it can create, especially if you raise it to defend your head. With sword and shield, you can adopt a stance where the sword defends your head until you use it to strike. With two shields, you can't effectively adopt that stance (it relies on using the length of the blade to protect your head when your hand is above and behind your head).

    With equal skill, I wouldn't bet on someone with two shields against someone with sword and shield. I don't think I'd even bet on someone with two shields against someone with a sword alone. It might be a long fight, but the sword offers longer reach, greater agility, and a more potentially damaging attack - sooner or later the guy with a sword will find an opening or a blind spot to get a thrust in.

    Sure, if you've got one guy who's trained for twenty years with dual shields and another guy who's just picked up a sword for the first time, the guy with two shields could win. But like a lot of exotic weapon combinations, it's one of those situations where the guy who spends the same amount of time training with a conventional set of weapons is still going to be ahead.

    You keep saying "Large Shield" No one is suggesting a "Large Shield". I just said "Shield". Plus the game doesn't even have a shield size option like it does for Bow and Swords, so I don't know what you're referring to. Plus, when ANet give an introduces a new weapon to a profession, they typically create a new weapon skins, so players can always pick a skins they want, small or large, but it'll still just be a Shield.

    The main problem for me is: why should Anet make a systemic change like allowing offhand weapons in the mainhand if they don't have to?

    All classes still have enough weapons open for elite specs without them having to use such tricks to artificially increase the pool of weapons they can chose from.

    "Systemic Change"? I guess I don't see making a "main hand only" or an "offhand weapon only" dual welded a systemic change. I can understand if you said aquatic weapons, but this is simply having the weapon in another hand like most of their other weapons. The only weapon that would need more care would be a main hand Shield due to positioning and stowing.

    The reason for allowing these weapons to be used would be to stick with the theme of the profession. If any profession was to use a Scepter in an off hand or a focus in the main hand, would be a spell caster and if anyone would be able to use a Shield in their main hand would definitely be the Warrior.

    The point of thinking of off hand weapons as a main hand option doesn't have to be taboo or against a cardinal rule. It's adding to a creative process without straying too far from what's implemented. I think offhand/main hand only weapons are more of a "happen-stance" than something that ANet was focused on having.

    Somewhere in the back-end, the game knows to treat them differently. Off-hands have their own category in the bank wardrobe and a double-click or right-click command within the inventory gets handled differently. I'm not sure how UI layout + coding can be happenstance.

    Plus, wouldn't asymmetrical shields and foci need to receive mirrored models? I'm just skeptical of the return on investment. I don't know how much work a change like this would create, but it's guaranteed at least some. Meanwhile, it's just opinion that the remaining weapons can't fit Warrior, so how many classes really require this change to justify it?

    Assassin elite spec concept for Thief doesn't make sense anymore.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Asymmetric models could be a problem, although it might not be too difficult to just mirror-flip them around. Might be worth having a close look at the one-handed weapons to see how they've done it with those, come to think on it.

    The back-end differences in their treatment would probably be more significant, though.

  • Headcase.4618Headcase.4618 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    Since we're sharing, here are my ideas for e-specs!

    (SOME OF THESE ARE STILL WORKS-IN-PROGRESS, SO KEEP AN OPEN MIND WHEN RESPONDING)

    Guardian/Avenger: dps-focused spec.
    Lore: Not wanting his skills to go to waste, a faction of Cantha's guardians, who came to be known as "Avengers," incorporated Shiro Tagachi's twin sword style into their fighting techniques, allowing them to strike at enemies even faster then before
    Weapon: Off-hand sword
    Armor: Shoulder
    Profession mechanic: Virtues become Furies*. a combination of Tempest's overload and warrior's adrenaline, Each fury can charge up overtime with each attack. Once charged they can release an AoE field that has different effects depending on the fury used. Furious Justice; damage/burning, Furious Resolve; healing/condi cleanse, and Furious Courage; stability/resistance. The major drawback is that they can only focus on one fury at a time so you need to keep that in mind during battle
    Utility skills: Rage. These skills can speed up the charging time of furies when used

    Revenant/Savant: dps-focused (plus some condi) spec.
    Lore: Oola and Zinn were master and apprentice turned bitter rivals in the world of golemancy. Now revenants can channel both of their legends and talents as Savants
    Weapon: Scepter, focus, or dagger**
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession mechanic: Channels the legends of golemancers, Oola and Zinn, doing so causes a classic golem to appear that never strays too far from your current location. Grants unique profession skills, Zinn's Enhancements to boost golem's stats and your own, and Oola's Necrosis to allow you and your golem to siphon health and convert boons into conditions. Utility skills: Legendary Savant skills. Unique only to savants, these allow the player to command your golem to use special attacks like rocket punch, missile barrage, etc. Elite skill causes golem to self-destruct, knocking back opponents and releasing poisonous gas and rendering utility skills useless until re-summoned with healing skill, similar to Ventari's tablet.

    Warrior/Monk: Support-focused spec.
    Lore: Naming themselves after the monks of old, these warriors seek inner peace and balance, even in the heat of battle
    Weapon: Melee staff
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession Mechanic: Serenity. Similar to the Berserk mode of berserkers, it is a unique burst skill that alters existing burst skills to grant different boons to themselves and allies depending on which burst skill is used
    Utility skills: Mantras.

    Engineer/Apothecary or Aethermancer***:

    4a. Apothecary: Condi-focused spec
    Lore: Apothecaries are masters of chemicals that have studied various elixirs and poisons over the years and uses this knowledge to enhance their fighting capabilities
    Weapon: main hand/dual wield axes***
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession mechanic: n/a
    Utility skill: Chemicals. similar to Thief's venom skills, these can add additional conditions and/or boons to your weapon skills or create aoe fields that can harm enemies and buff allies.
    Note: This could potentially bring back old traits such as Acidic Elixirs and Acid coating.

    4b: Aethermancer: CC-focused spec
    Lore: By reverse engineering the technology from the Aetherblade pirates, Engineers are now able to channel aether magic through scientific means as Aethermancers
    Weapon: Main-hand mace
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession mechanic: N/A
    Utility skills: Aether weapons. Summons weapons of pure aether energy to attack or defend, similar to guardian's spirit weapons

    Elementalist/Spellslinger: Ranged/dps-focused spec
    Lore: Some elementalists are not able to wield magic like their brethren. Fortunately, the ones in Cantha found a workaround for that by focusing the elements into specially made ammunition, allowing them to cast spells through pistols at great distances by simply pulling the trigger
    Weapon: Dual pistols
    Armor: Helm
    Profession mechanic: Attunements become ammunition. Spellslingers are able to attack without needing to be attuned to a specific element, and instead creates bullets that are based on one of the four elements. These bullets last for about 15 charges, but this can be increased to 20 through e-spec trait. they're able to switch to other ammo like before but if you do with while another set of ammo is active, you will lose the leftover charges and will have to wait until cooldown to use them again
    Utility skills: Tricks

    Ranger/Warden: Dps/CC-focused spec
    Lore: Wardens were mysterious creatures that protected the Echovald Forests of Cantha. Now Rangers can learn their secrets and carry on their legacy of defending nature from those who would exploit it
    Weapon Hammer
    Armor: Boots
    Profession mechanic: Build energy during combat to use unique skill to temporarily transform into large tree monster.
    Utility skills: Punishments

    Thief/Gangleader: DPS/support-focused spec
    Lore: Various gangs run rampant in the criminal underworld. As a gangleader, you will command your underlings to do your bidding while aiding them in battle
    Weapon: Main-hand/Dual mace(s) or Greatsword***
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession mechanic: N/A
    Utility skills: Minions. Summon gang members with unique abilities and effects, similar to Necromancer's minions

    Mesmer: (I wasn't able to come up with anything that could work for mesmers, so now I support this person's idea called "The Psychomancer." Check it out here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58284/the-psychomancer-mesmer-elite-specialization-suggestion )

    Necromancer/Seance: Support/ranged-focused spec
    Lore: Seances seek to bring peace to restless souls and protect them from otherworldly creatures that would harm them. They can also summon spirits to aid them in battle
    Weapon: Longbow/shortbow***
    Armor: Gloves
    Profession Mechanic: Replaces Death Shroud with Spirit Shroud. This grants unique skills that heals and buffs themselves and other players as well as do damage. #5 skill grants the user distortion for a few seconds
    Utility skills: Spirits. Similar to Ranger's spirits, seance's summon ghostly souls that cause effects depending on which ones where summoned. These skills can also be traited to grant distortion when activated

    *Name subject to change
    **would like to see a combination of two of these, even if it is unlikely that will happen.
    ***Either one could work

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Runiir.6425 said:
    All of these ideas and NO ONE suggested giving the Guardian 2 pistols and calling them Sheriff?

    Sheriff.... in an Asian setting... whut?

    Dont kno if u noticed but no spec suggestions for any class for the most part have taken any consideration of the expacs general theme. Warrior for example...what's the first asian warrior themes come to mind, or thief' as its obviously a warrior/ fighter or used to be but now is outlaw'ish in nature.
    My vote goes to a spear warrior, rev already has the chinese warrior vibe with its staff skills and dragon themes. Warrior could have a mix of offensive and support options and use spear like attacks unlike the DD or revs staff skills.
    Thief ronin with OH sword, quick offense skills and defenses less reliant on stealth and teleports.
    Those of course are suggestions for ideas that follow the theme, which obviously probably wont happen, also not following the theme may allow more creativity.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Chinese samurai? That's really not a thing...

    I think there's a degree to which the flavour can follow. After all, if you look at the PoF elite specs mechanically, none of them really shout Middle Eastern/African themes. Maybe the Mirage, since the entire specialisation was built around the 'Mirage' key word and that's associated with deserts, but that could have been associated with any desert region. But all of them except the Renegade have some connection to Elona fluff-wise - Weavers were inspired by djinn, Firebrands were keepers of Elonian history, and so on.

    Similar connections could be made here. For instance, consider the popular 'support warrior' concept. The first Ascendant Emperor of Cantha was a Warrior Monk. I'm sure ArenaNet could bring in a tie-in from that. Like the PoF elite specs, the broad concept is region-neutral, and the fluff can then be made to fit whichever region Arenanet decides to associate it with.

    Something like 'Sheriff', on the other hand, is very clearly coming from a Western origin. Give it pistols, and everyone's likely to be immediately thinking Wild West.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 9, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Chinese samurai? That's really not a thing...

    I think there's a degree to which the flavour can follow. After all, if you look at the PoF elite specs mechanically, none of them really shout Middle Eastern/African themes. Maybe the Mirage, since the entire specialisation was built around the 'Mirage' key word and that's associated with deserts, but that could have been associated with any desert region. But all of them except the Renegade have some connection to Elona fluff-wise - Weavers were inspired by djinn, Firebrands were keepers of Elonian history, and so on.

    Similar connections could be made here. For instance, consider the popular 'support warrior' concept. The first Ascendant Emperor of Cantha was a Warrior Monk. I'm sure ArenaNet could bring in a tie-in from that. Like the PoF elite specs, the broad concept is region-neutral, and the fluff can then be made to fit whichever region Arenanet decides to associate it with.

    Something like 'Sheriff', on the other hand, is very clearly coming from a Western origin. Give it pistols, and everyone's likely to be immediately thinking Wild West.

    I said asian, is east asian not include Japanese cuz Japan's in east Asia no? Also the expac is oriental themed, no spacific japanese or chinese context has been given for the expac.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Chinese samurai? That's really not a thing...

    I think there's a degree to which the flavour can follow. After all, if you look at the PoF elite specs mechanically, none of them really shout Middle Eastern/African themes. Maybe the Mirage, since the entire specialisation was built around the 'Mirage' key word and that's associated with deserts, but that could have been associated with any desert region. But all of them except the Renegade have some connection to Elona fluff-wise - Weavers were inspired by djinn, Firebrands were keepers of Elonian history, and so on.

    Similar connections could be made here. For instance, consider the popular 'support warrior' concept. The first Ascendant Emperor of Cantha was a Warrior Monk. I'm sure ArenaNet could bring in a tie-in from that. Like the PoF elite specs, the broad concept is region-neutral, and the fluff can then be made to fit whichever region Arenanet decides to associate it with.

    Something like 'Sheriff', on the other hand, is very clearly coming from a Western origin. Give it pistols, and everyone's likely to be immediately thinking Wild West.

    I said asian, is east asian not include Japanese cuz Japan's in east Asia no? Also the expac is oriental themed, no spacific japanese or chinese context has been given for the expac.

    You did say "chinese samurai warrior". That's either implying that "chinese samurai" is a thing (which they're not, samurai is purely a Japanese concept where I don't think China ever had a direct equivalent) or a really unfortunate way to write "samurai/chinese warrior".

    Point is, though, at the point of talking about what elite specialisations bring to the table, they don't have to be oriental-themed, since a concept that's fairly culture-agnostic could them be given fluff that has it coming from Cantha. However, they're probably not going to do something that is specific to some OTHER culture like a Wild West gunslinging sheriff.

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Kodama.6453 said:

    @Runiir.6425 said:
    All of these ideas and NO ONE suggested giving the Guardian 2 pistols and calling them Sheriff?

    Sheriff.... in an Asian setting... whut?

    Dont kno if u noticed but no spec suggestions for any class for the most part have taken any consideration of the expacs general theme. Warrior for example...what's the first asian warrior themes come to mind, or thief' as its obviously a warrior/ fighter or used to be but now is outlaw'ish in nature.
    My vote goes to a spear warrior, rev already has the chinese samurai warrior vibe with its staff skills and dragon themes. Warrior could have a mix of offensive and support options and use spear like attacks unlike the DD or revs staff skills.
    Thief ronin with OH sword, quick offense skills and defenses less reliant on stealth and teleports.
    Those of course are suggestions for ideas that follow the theme, which obviously probably wont happen, also not following the theme may allow more creativity.

    My own suggestion for the engineer elite spec, plague doctor, actually does consider the actual theme of the expac. It directly ties in with the lore of factions, specifically the Am Fah, which were trying to use the plague as a measure to strengthen their warriors instead of seeing it as the flesh forging curse it truly was.

    Expand that idea to engineers trying to use poisonous fumes and chemicals to strengtehn allies and voila, plague doctor spec with lore ties.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Chinese samurai? That's really not a thing...

    I think there's a degree to which the flavour can follow. After all, if you look at the PoF elite specs mechanically, none of them really shout Middle Eastern/African themes. Maybe the Mirage, since the entire specialisation was built around the 'Mirage' key word and that's associated with deserts, but that could have been associated with any desert region. But all of them except the Renegade have some connection to Elona fluff-wise - Weavers were inspired by djinn, Firebrands were keepers of Elonian history, and so on.

    Similar connections could be made here. For instance, consider the popular 'support warrior' concept. The first Ascendant Emperor of Cantha was a Warrior Monk. I'm sure ArenaNet could bring in a tie-in from that. Like the PoF elite specs, the broad concept is region-neutral, and the fluff can then be made to fit whichever region Arenanet decides to associate it with.

    Something like 'Sheriff', on the other hand, is very clearly coming from a Western origin. Give it pistols, and everyone's likely to be immediately thinking Wild West.

    I said asian, is east asian not include Japanese cuz Japan's in east Asia no? Also the expac is oriental themed, no spacific japanese or chinese context has been given for the expac.

    You did say "chinese samurai warrior". That's either implying that "chinese samurai" is a thing (which they're not, samurai is purely a Japanese concept where I don't think China ever had a direct equivalent) or a really unfortunate way to write "samurai/chinese warrior".

    Point is, though, at the point of talking about what elite specialisations bring to the table, they don't have to be oriental-themed, since a concept that's fairly culture-agnostic could them be given fluff that has it coming from Cantha. However, they're probably not going to do something that is specific to some OTHER culture like a Wild West gunslinging sheriff.

    Ur right, my bad as it was a mistake, I meant to say rev already has the chinese warrior vibe with its staff skills and dragons themed skills. Put a halbert like skin on the staff and rev skills fit the theme well.