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Death's Judgment broken in WvW by not requiring the Deadeye to mark its actual target


Shadowcat.2680

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Title says it pretty succinctly. The mechanic of Death's Judgment, the skill not caring which target (player, NPC, or ambient mob) the Deadeye has marked does not work for WvW. Death's Judgment is a one-shot skill requiring no setup in WvW as it exists now. Dodging the tell is problematic in anything beyond a 1 v 1 as the Deadeye doesn't have to make its presence known (again, it doesn't have to mark any enemy if it's marked something else) until it fires off Death's Judgment for numbers high enough to wipe out a toon's entire health pool.

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@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals to the marked target."

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:Please check out this thread for an ongoing discussion on it, and why people are confused about how Deadeye's Mark and Death's Judgement works.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5756/deaths-judgment

A deadeye does not need to hit their marked target to get the damage bonus from death's judgment. So long as a deadeye has something marked nearby (even white mobs can be marked), said deadeye will generate malice. From its tooltip, the intent of the malice mechanic seems to be to increase the deadeye's damage against their marked target. But the Death's Judgment skill gets its damage bonus regardless of what's marked. A deadeye can start a fight with full malice stacks and hit with a fully charged Death's Judgment so long as they mark something else before the fight begins.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

So you've read "malice" description... Good job, have a cookie.Now, you're trying to talk about DJ, so go and read DJ description.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

A deadeye marking ambient mobs to generate malice and then using that malice for a fully charged death's judgment against a player is not those two mechanics working as intended. If a deadeye was meant to be able to build up malice using mobs, then the malice stacks would be more of a permanent mechanic.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:Title says it pretty succinctly. The mechanic of Death's Judgment, the skill not caring which target (player, NPC, or ambient mob) the Deadeye has marked does not work for WvW. Death's Judgment is a one-shot skill requiring no setup in WvW as it exists now. Dodging the tell is problematic in anything beyond a 1 v 1 as the Deadeye doesn't have to make its presence known (again, it doesn't have to mark any enemy if it's marked something else) until it fires off Death's Judgment for numbers high enough to wipe out a toon's entire health pool.

Skills that can also one shot you or do a ton of damage which is almost unavoidable or with little to no tell.BackstabGunflameShattersCoRWorldy Impact

Yes DE is annoying, but simply moving up uneven terrain is enough to counter the weapon as a whole.

Be glad it doesn't pierce

I don't agree with the whole marked target mechanic or Kneel, it doesnt feel like a thief or Assassin and should be scrapped entirely, but since anet wont do that I think the best course of action would be to lower the BONUS DAMAGE coefficient from DE from 15% to 12%

This would mean that instead of a 105% bonus damage you are looking at an 84% bonus damage increase, a 20% nerf to the one skill. (With malificent 7)Then I would increase the initiative cost by 1, add the effect of initiative regen when hitting the marked targetThis will mean no DJ back to back on an unmarked target, and hitting a marked target is more beneficial and in your best interest.That should make it to where damage is normalized a bit

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

A deadeye marking ambient mobs to generate malice and then using that malice for a fully charged death's judgment against a player is not those two mechanics working as intended. If a deadeye was meant to be able to build up malice using mobs, then the malice stacks would be more of a permanent mechanic.

Show where it’s not intended, normally when something isn’t intended Anet is quick to state so look at Scourge for example, so please show us where they have said as such, since any skill in game can be used on any neutral/enemy NPC/Ambient why would Mark not be the same? so please show us how or where it’s been acknowledged as not being intended, I will wait.

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@LetoII.3782 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice itself is toward one target.The theme in play is assassin, not mass murderer.

And assassins are not murderers? Be it mass or single target..........

OK, I really have to restrain myself here now before #ModIncoming

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

A deadeye marking ambient mobs to generate malice and then using that malice for a fully charged death's judgment against a player is not those two mechanics working as intended. If a deadeye was meant to be able to build up malice using mobs, then the malice stacks would be more of a permanent mechanic.

Show where it’s not intended, normally when something isn’t intended Anet is quick to state so look at Scourge for example, so please show us where they have said as such, since any skill in game can be used on any neutral/enemy NPC/Ambient why would Mark not be the same? so please show us how or where it’s been acknowledged as not being intended, I will wait.

Can you name another skill on any profession where the user can drastically and passively increase its damage against a player by using said skill against a nearby mob first? At 1500 range? Without ever aggroing the mob?

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

A deadeye marking ambient mobs to generate malice and then using that malice for a fully charged death's judgment against a player is not those two mechanics working as intended. If a deadeye was meant to be able to build up malice using mobs, then the malice stacks would be more of a permanent mechanic.

Show where it’s not intended, normally when something isn’t intended Anet is quick to state so look at Scourge for example, so please show us where they have said as such, since any skill in game can be used on any neutral/enemy NPC/Ambient why would Mark not be the same? so please show us how or where it’s been acknowledged as not being intended, I will wait.

Can you name another skill on any profession where the user can drastically and passively increase its damage against a player by using said skill against a nearby mob first? At 1500 range? Without ever aggroing the mob?

Just because the mechanic is new, doesn't mean it's "not intended", how's that anything close to a valid argument?

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Title says it pretty succinctly. The mechanic of Death's Judgment, the skill not caring which target (player, NPC, or ambient mob) the Deadeye has marked does not work for WvW. Death's Judgment is a one-shot skill requiring no setup in WvW as it exists now. Dodging the tell is problematic in anything beyond a 1 v 1 as the Deadeye doesn't have to make its presence known (again, it doesn't have to mark any enemy if it's marked something else) until it fires off Death's Judgment for numbers high enough to wipe out a toon's entire health pool.

Skills that can also one shot you or do a ton of damage which is almost unavoidable or with little to no tell.BackstabGunflameShattersCoRWorldy Impact

Yes DE is annoying, but simply moving up uneven terrain is enough to counter the weapon as a whole.

Some of the most complained about skills in WvW during the past five years:BackstabGunflameCoRTrue ShotEpidemicDeath's Judgment

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Considering the mark builds up malice, which is usable on other weapon sets, how would you deal with that?

Malice isn't only benefiting one skill.

Malice increases damage dealt to the deadeye's marked target regardless of the weapon set used. It doesn't increase the deadeye's damage against all targets with all weapons so long as they have a marked target nearby. From the wiki: "Malice is a stacking effect exclusive to the Deadeye elite specialization of the Thief. It increases damage the Deadeye deals
to the marked target
."

You are quoting Wiki which in this case has been shown to be inaccurate. Look at the actual tooltip / skill description in game.

Quoted the wiki for the sake of the ease of copy and paste. The tooltip in game also specifies that malice increases a deadeye's damage to its marked target. Nowhere does it say that malice increases the deadeye's damage against all targets.

Mark Causes the Malice Generated to cause more damage to the Marked Target, that is an effect of Mark not Malice.

Malice is generated on the Thief.

Death's Judgement doesn’t care about Marked Target and only cares about how many stacks of Malice the Thief has accumulated.

Remember these are two separate skills, each have two separate affects each use a common thing called Malice to augment the two skills.

They are working as intended.

A deadeye marking ambient mobs to generate malice and then using that malice for a fully charged death's judgment against a player is not those two mechanics working as intended. If a deadeye was meant to be able to build up malice using mobs, then the malice stacks would be more of a permanent mechanic.

Show where it’s not intended, normally when something isn’t intended Anet is quick to state so look at Scourge for example, so please show us where they have said as such, since any skill in game can be used on any neutral/enemy NPC/Ambient why would Mark not be the same? so please show us how or where it’s been acknowledged as not being intended, I will wait.

Can you name another skill on any profession where the user can drastically and passively increase its damage against a player by using said skill against a nearby mob first? At 1500 range? Without ever aggroing the mob?

Can you name another skill that allows you to dodge and continue another action at the same time?Can you name another skill that allows you to reduce damage by 100%, daze a target, gain resistance, strip boons, and copy conditions to an enemy while also doing damage?Can you name another skill that lets you passively stack conditions while also providing the user and teammates with large barriers, and condition conversion?

A New mechanic is new, you arent going to find skills like that in game except on one profession, same as malice.So try using an argument that makes sense.

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@LetoII.3782 said:Anet are the one's who've evoked the theme...... You do know this expansion is borrowing heavily from One Thousand and One Nights... Yes?It's classical literature, and to a certain extent popular mythology.

Assassins have a defined role, and it's not random attacks

eliminating threats around a target to get to said target safely is not random either..That arguement of how an assassin kills could be used in any way, and I really hope no one knows from experience 0_o

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Amusing how many folks come out to defend the Malice mechanics and claim people don't understand how it works, when anyone with a minimum of common sense should understand why many have a problem with how it currently stands.

You target a white-border , non-aggroable ambient, build Malice up and use Death's Judgement to do between 20k - 30k to someone that happens by. Now, if I'm on my thief and cloak and dagger an ambient...it dies. If I Hunter's Shot with my ranger/druid...it dies. If I smack it on my necro or reaper for lifeforce...it dies. If every other damage -enhancing action involving mobs pulls said mob into combat, why can a Dead Eye just camp a mob, be it white, yellow, or red, and never be in combat? Frankly, since every other use of ambient creatures is a one-shot-and-it's-dead usage, with the exception of movement skills...(which I don't care about because there are movement skills that are simply ground targeted as well) I don't think they should even be a source for Malice. And, if a Dead Eye targets a non-one-shotable mob, why isn't it AND the Dead Eye dragged into combat?

I think it's the whole charging up combat advantages while not in combat and humping stealth that leaves people somewhat annoyed; especially when squishy, non-combat creatures can be used to do it.

It isn't hard to understand.

However, it's -very- easy to understand why folks argue for it. ;)

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@Adamarc.7463 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:Title says it pretty succinctly. The mechanic of Death's Judgment, the skill not caring which target (player, NPC, or ambient mob) the Deadeye has marked does not work for WvW. Death's Judgment is a one-shot skill requiring no setup in WvW as it exists now. Dodging the tell is problematic in anything beyond a 1 v 1 as the Deadeye doesn't have to make its presence known (again, it doesn't have to mark any enemy if it's marked something else) until it fires off Death's Judgment for numbers high enough to wipe out a toon's entire health pool.

Skills that can also one shot you or do a ton of damage which is almost unavoidable or with little to no tell.BackstabGunflameShattersCoRWorldy Impact

Yes DE is annoying, but simply moving up uneven terrain is enough to counter the weapon as a whole.

Some of the most complained about skills in WvW during the past five years:BackstabGunflameCoRTrue ShotEpidemicDeath's Judgment

Hey, can you show me the exact source of this... well, statistic? Or did you just decide to present your subjective opinion/feeling on the matter as a fact?

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@dawsm.5398 said:Amusing how many folks come out to defend the Malice mechanics and claim people don't understand how it works, when anyone with a minimum of common sense should understand why many have a problem with how it currently stands.

It's amusing that people who most probably never touched the spec are free to spread their "one and only valid opinion on the matter" and decide what should or shouldn't be nerfed, but somehow "defending" it is... "amusing" for you?Don't be a hypocrite.

There are easy ways to counter this skill, which already was explained on multiple occasions, but the only answers to that so far is anything along the lines of "WELL I THINK NOT" or "BUT I DON'T WANT TO FOCUS ON PVP IN WvW". Maybe you should find this little fact "amusing" and focus on calling out those people?No? Well, so I guess someone else will, even if you won't like it. (or like it to the point of being "amusing", whatever suits you)

E: ah and btw, it's not "claiming people don't understand how it works" -if you actually read through the latest threads about it, you'll notice that it's a fact and people don't understand how and why it works the way it does. And then they come on the boards and claim "it's bugged". Ahh... isn't THIS amusing? :D

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@dawsm.5398 said:If every other damage -enhancing action involving mobs pulls said mob into combat, why can a Dead Eye just camp a mob, be it white, yellow, or red, and never be in combat? Frankly, since every other use of ambient creatures is a one-shot-and-it's-dead usage, with the exception of movement skills...(which I don't care about because there are movement skills that are simply ground targeted as well) I don't think they should even be a source for Malice. And, if a Dead Eye targets a non-one-shotable mob, why isn't it AND the Dead Eye dragged into combat?

I think it's the whole charging up combat advantages while not in combat and humping stealth that leaves people somewhat annoyed; especially when squishy, non-combat creatures can be used to do it.

if deadly arts is taken it will

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