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Epidemic of rangers and thieves in WvW

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  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:
    Tbh this video just speaks more to how Condi is over performing in this meta.

    If condi is over performing we would see all condi everywhere on random classes with random builds.

    Yet we see specific classes and specific builds mentioned every time it's brought up.

    Weird.

    I mean...

    Is poison warrior overperforming?

    Edit: actually I think I might have misread your post as saying that all condi and not just mentioning thief condi. Well oops, I don't feel like rewriting though haha. I'll say individual class balance is always needed, and that does include thief and its condi builds as well.

    Edit again: Actually i just got rid of the whole post. Ignore me. :p

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Thank you for your kind reply, I currently play a Weaver Elementalist in WvW, however profession is not relevant when talking about mechanics. I have had plenty of experience dealing with the Smokescale's assault and watching my HP bar going drastically down with 1 burst attack and target break. This is a very toxic mechanic I have seen in other games and no matter how good you are capable to talk about it I will always advice developers to avoid this mechanic and to rework it in order to offer some counterplay.

    I can assure you I will never change my mind about target break abilities.

    Regards

    I would disagree. Profession is important to discuss as certain classes will be countered by others. Elementalist was designed to be weak to burst damage, the developers have commented on this in the past. It has the lowest armor rating and lowest HP pool coupled with the lack of any stealth revealing skill. Elementalist is not a bruiser class that is meant to be able to soak up damage, even as a Weaver. Its a sustain based class, it stays alive over long periods of time by retaining its HP through heals, boons, heavy access to vigor for multiple dodges, and in Weavers case, barrier. I've mained elementalist since the games launch, so I am speaking from experience here. Ranger's smokescale is strong, yes, but you have plenty of ways to defend against it. I posted earlier this thread a list of evades Weaver has access too on Sword. But if you're running staff and playing with zergs, then yes of course you're going to eat it when you're attacked by these classes, they are literally built to take out squishy targets like Weaver. In those situations you need to learn your positioning and how to kite around, using the terrain to LoS the enemies. If range pressure is really causing you trouble, grab Focus, it can literally shut down rangers strongest moves. Since Elementalist doesn't have access to reveal skills, consider picking up some Target Marker traps or do one of the following: 1) If they are stealth and are using ranged, LoS immediately and watch for the first sign of incoming damage. When you see it coming, use one of your evades to avoid most of the damage, then begin to assault. 2) If they stealth and are using melee, prepare to use your skills that mostly effect short range AoE (Flame Uprising, Earthen Vortex, Lava Skin, Earthquake) so you can catch them when they get out of stealth.

    Practice will make perfect. Learn your match ups. You've chosen to main one of the hardest, if not THE hardest class in PvP game modes. It will take time to get used to it, but I promise these skills are not as terrible as they may seem right now. Should they be balanced a bit more? Probably. But it will get easier as you play more.

    Fun fact: Did you know that Elementalists is one of the classes have natural access to Stealth? =) It's just never useful since its underwater. Ahaha

    I am ok with the fact that highly skilled players should feel rewarded playing a profession with the highest skill ceiling in the game, I know Elementalists have a stealth spell, it comes from the trident but since going underwater is not practical in WvW because there is a lack of water in Conquest maps I wouldn't even contemplate it. I like playing a build that requires hard work in order to feel rewarding, that is why I don't play my Dragonhunter Guardian anymore. Weaver feels rewarding once you gear up properly and master a stall build but that is not how squad fights work. I am aware I have to play a squishy squad build in Conquest when I am not roaming. I am very impressed with the Thief's roaming potential that I am thinking of adding one to my roster. I doubt Anet is going to nerf the current toxic meta so in order to learn how to deal with one I have to play one.

    'Guild Wars 2 | New player tries Condi Thief PvP'

    Lol if I wanted I could make a montage of killing unranked boys with my condi weaver too, let's be serious now. Condi thieves are difficult if you can clear through their first burst they usually cant handle long term pressure. Tbh this video just speaks more to how Condi is over performing in this meta. And that sPvP and WvW are balanced differently.

    +1

    You are correct that Conditions are Toxic in this meta but there is an underlying issue when it comes to Toxicity/Toxic Meta in itself especially when it has been present since Guild Wars 2 beta until this day= Thief Profession

    Thief Profession has been Toxic since Guild Wars 2 release and has been excused from any serious nerfs whereas other Professions since Guild Wars 2 beta has gone through many serious nerfs including conditions.

    Even Condition Mesmer Profession has long gone through many nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta and has been the scapegoat for Condition Thief Profession

    (In other word, it is Mesmer Profession fault for Thief Profession Toxicity including all other Professions, so Blame them instead for all Toxic meta's including , taking away their Perma-dodge/evade because they're the only Profession who can do it)

    WHERE IS THIEF PROFESSION 1 DODGE CONSEQUENCE TOO?!!

    HOW DOES A DPS PROFESSION ROLE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAP INTO A CONDITON BASE ROLE PROFESSION- NECROMANCER CONDITIONS AND EXCELL IN IT, BETTER THEVEN AN ITS HOLDER??!!

    WHERE ARE NECROMANCER PROFESSION CONDITIONS?!!

    Let us be serious here, isn't dealing with the root cause and removing its influences is the right approach in dealing with Toxicity?

    So why 1 Profession is freely allowed and permitted to continue to be Excused, Destructive and Blameless when it comes to serious nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta?

    WHY IS MESMER PROFESSION BEING BLAMED, USED AS ITS SCAPEGOAT INSTEAD OF TACKLING WITH THE ROOT CAUSE OF ENDLESS PROFESSIONS TOXICITY?!!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81212/nerf-the-mesmers-for-the-love-of-pvp/p3

    If you genuinely think that condi mirage was fine on release, and that it was nerfed because thief condis were OP, that alone refutes your own point more than anything else I could say.

    my post did not state anything of which you 've stated therefore, i have nothing to reply

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Thank you for your kind reply, I currently play a Weaver Elementalist in WvW, however profession is not relevant when talking about mechanics. I have had plenty of experience dealing with the Smokescale's assault and watching my HP bar going drastically down with 1 burst attack and target break. This is a very toxic mechanic I have seen in other games and no matter how good you are capable to talk about it I will always advice developers to avoid this mechanic and to rework it in order to offer some counterplay.

    I can assure you I will never change my mind about target break abilities.

    Regards

    I would disagree. Profession is important to discuss as certain classes will be countered by others. Elementalist was designed to be weak to burst damage, the developers have commented on this in the past. It has the lowest armor rating and lowest HP pool coupled with the lack of any stealth revealing skill. Elementalist is not a bruiser class that is meant to be able to soak up damage, even as a Weaver. Its a sustain based class, it stays alive over long periods of time by retaining its HP through heals, boons, heavy access to vigor for multiple dodges, and in Weavers case, barrier. I've mained elementalist since the games launch, so I am speaking from experience here. Ranger's smokescale is strong, yes, but you have plenty of ways to defend against it. I posted earlier this thread a list of evades Weaver has access too on Sword. But if you're running staff and playing with zergs, then yes of course you're going to eat it when you're attacked by these classes, they are literally built to take out squishy targets like Weaver. In those situations you need to learn your positioning and how to kite around, using the terrain to LoS the enemies. If range pressure is really causing you trouble, grab Focus, it can literally shut down rangers strongest moves. Since Elementalist doesn't have access to reveal skills, consider picking up some Target Marker traps or do one of the following: 1) If they are stealth and are using ranged, LoS immediately and watch for the first sign of incoming damage. When you see it coming, use one of your evades to avoid most of the damage, then begin to assault. 2) If they stealth and are using melee, prepare to use your skills that mostly effect short range AoE (Flame Uprising, Earthen Vortex, Lava Skin, Earthquake) so you can catch them when they get out of stealth.

    Practice will make perfect. Learn your match ups. You've chosen to main one of the hardest, if not THE hardest class in PvP game modes. It will take time to get used to it, but I promise these skills are not as terrible as they may seem right now. Should they be balanced a bit more? Probably. But it will get easier as you play more.

    Fun fact: Did you know that Elementalists is one of the classes have natural access to Stealth? =) It's just never useful since its underwater. Ahaha

    I am ok with the fact that highly skilled players should feel rewarded playing a profession with the highest skill ceiling in the game, I know Elementalists have a stealth spell, it comes from the trident but since going underwater is not practical in WvW because there is a lack of water in Conquest maps I wouldn't even contemplate it. I like playing a build that requires hard work in order to feel rewarding, that is why I don't play my Dragonhunter Guardian anymore. Weaver feels rewarding once you gear up properly and master a stall build but that is not how squad fights work. I am aware I have to play a squishy squad build in Conquest when I am not roaming. I am very impressed with the Thief's roaming potential that I am thinking of adding one to my roster. I doubt Anet is going to nerf the current toxic meta so in order to learn how to deal with one I have to play one.

    'Guild Wars 2 | New player tries Condi Thief PvP'

    Lol if I wanted I could make a montage of killing unranked boys with my condi weaver too, let's be serious now. Condi thieves are difficult if you can clear through their first burst they usually cant handle long term pressure. Tbh this video just speaks more to how Condi is over performing in this meta. And that sPvP and WvW are balanced differently.

    +1

    You are correct that Conditions are Toxic in this meta but there is an underlying issue when it comes to Toxicity/Toxic Meta in itself especially when it has been present since Guild Wars 2 beta until this day= Thief Profession

    Thief Profession has been Toxic since Guild Wars 2 release and has been excused from any serious nerfs whereas other Professions since Guild Wars 2 beta has gone through many serious nerfs including conditions.

    Even Condition Mesmer Profession has long gone through many nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta and has been the scapegoat for Condition Thief Profession

    (In other word, it is Mesmer Profession fault for Thief Profession Toxicity including all other Professions, so Blame them instead for all Toxic meta's including , taking away their Perma-dodge/evade because they're the only Profession who can do it)

    WHERE IS THIEF PROFESSION 1 DODGE CONSEQUENCE TOO?!!

    HOW DOES A DPS PROFESSION ROLE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAP INTO A CONDITON BASE ROLE PROFESSION- NECROMANCER CONDITIONS AND EXCELL IN IT, BETTER THEVEN AN ITS HOLDER??!!

    WHERE ARE NECROMANCER PROFESSION CONDITIONS?!!

    Let us be serious here, isn't dealing with the root cause and removing its influences is the right approach in dealing with Toxicity?

    So why 1 Profession is freely allowed and permitted to continue to be Excused, Destructive and Blameless when it comes to serious nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta?

    WHY IS MESMER PROFESSION BEING BLAMED, USED AS ITS SCAPEGOAT INSTEAD OF TACKLING WITH THE ROOT CAUSE OF ENDLESS PROFESSIONS TOXICITY?!!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81212/nerf-the-mesmers-for-the-love-of-pvp/p3

    If you genuinely think that condi mirage was fine on release, and that it was nerfed because thief condis were OP, that alone refutes your own point more than anything else I could say.

    my post did not state anything of which you 've stated therefore, i have nothing to reply

    You sure about that?

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Thief Profession has been Toxic since Guild Wars 2 release and has been excused from any serious nerfs whereas other Professions since Guild Wars 2 beta has gone through many serious nerfs including conditions.

    Even Condition Mesmer Profession has long gone through many nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta and has been the scapegoat for Condition Thief Profession

    (In other word, it is Mesmer Profession fault for Thief Profession Toxicity including all other Professions, so Blame them instead for all Toxic meta's including , taking away their Perma-dodge/evade because they're the only Profession who can do it)

    First of all, you do not know my thoughts so instead you should be asking me for inputs of my though the correct way, Do you think ? What do you think? etc...? Secondly, i never once stated ever on my post (highlight it again)' that Condition Mesmer was fine'.. Lastly,

    again, nowhere in my post did i ever said that Condition Mesmer Profession was fine, Lastly, not only was Condition Mesmer was nerfed because of Thief Profession....throughout the years, all Professions Conditions were nerfed in favor of Thief Profession.

    In fact, there is a patch in which Anet gave Thief Profession a huge undeserving, unwarranted increase of Poison Condition Buffs and Punished Mesmer Profession Conditions with nerfs

    None of these Profession- Necromancer, Mesmer, Warrior, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer were given additional Condition buffs increase over condition buffs non other than Thief Profession

    (Thief Profession is the only Profession whose given more reasons of excuses for more additional increase of Toxicity. In other word, instead of decreasing an already Toxic Bad Design Profession, buff it even more because it is not enough.)

    Thief Is The Only Profession Throughout Guild Wars 2 8 Years Where It Is Was Never Given Enough Reason When It Comes To Buffs


    Mesmer Profession Portal - Portal Entre-August 28, 2012

    'Create an entry portal at your location that teleports allies to your exit portal.'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal_Entre

    --Shadow Portal-July 16, 2019

    'Unleash shadow magic at your prepared location, creating a one-way portal for you and your allies. Allies traveling through the portal gain stealth. Weakens foes around the portal's exit.'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Portal

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:

    @fuzzyp.6295 said:

    @Touchme.1097 said:
    Thank you for your kind reply, I currently play a Weaver Elementalist in WvW, however profession is not relevant when talking about mechanics. I have had plenty of experience dealing with the Smokescale's assault and watching my HP bar going drastically down with 1 burst attack and target break. This is a very toxic mechanic I have seen in other games and no matter how good you are capable to talk about it I will always advice developers to avoid this mechanic and to rework it in order to offer some counterplay.

    I can assure you I will never change my mind about target break abilities.

    Regards

    I would disagree. Profession is important to discuss as certain classes will be countered by others. Elementalist was designed to be weak to burst damage, the developers have commented on this in the past. It has the lowest armor rating and lowest HP pool coupled with the lack of any stealth revealing skill. Elementalist is not a bruiser class that is meant to be able to soak up damage, even as a Weaver. Its a sustain based class, it stays alive over long periods of time by retaining its HP through heals, boons, heavy access to vigor for multiple dodges, and in Weavers case, barrier. I've mained elementalist since the games launch, so I am speaking from experience here. Ranger's smokescale is strong, yes, but you have plenty of ways to defend against it. I posted earlier this thread a list of evades Weaver has access too on Sword. But if you're running staff and playing with zergs, then yes of course you're going to eat it when you're attacked by these classes, they are literally built to take out squishy targets like Weaver. In those situations you need to learn your positioning and how to kite around, using the terrain to LoS the enemies. If range pressure is really causing you trouble, grab Focus, it can literally shut down rangers strongest moves. Since Elementalist doesn't have access to reveal skills, consider picking up some Target Marker traps or do one of the following: 1) If they are stealth and are using ranged, LoS immediately and watch for the first sign of incoming damage. When you see it coming, use one of your evades to avoid most of the damage, then begin to assault. 2) If they stealth and are using melee, prepare to use your skills that mostly effect short range AoE (Flame Uprising, Earthen Vortex, Lava Skin, Earthquake) so you can catch them when they get out of stealth.

    Practice will make perfect. Learn your match ups. You've chosen to main one of the hardest, if not THE hardest class in PvP game modes. It will take time to get used to it, but I promise these skills are not as terrible as they may seem right now. Should they be balanced a bit more? Probably. But it will get easier as you play more.

    Fun fact: Did you know that Elementalists is one of the classes have natural access to Stealth? =) It's just never useful since its underwater. Ahaha

    I am ok with the fact that highly skilled players should feel rewarded playing a profession with the highest skill ceiling in the game, I know Elementalists have a stealth spell, it comes from the trident but since going underwater is not practical in WvW because there is a lack of water in Conquest maps I wouldn't even contemplate it. I like playing a build that requires hard work in order to feel rewarding, that is why I don't play my Dragonhunter Guardian anymore. Weaver feels rewarding once you gear up properly and master a stall build but that is not how squad fights work. I am aware I have to play a squishy squad build in Conquest when I am not roaming. I am very impressed with the Thief's roaming potential that I am thinking of adding one to my roster. I doubt Anet is going to nerf the current toxic meta so in order to learn how to deal with one I have to play one.

    'Guild Wars 2 | New player tries Condi Thief PvP'

    Lol if I wanted I could make a montage of killing unranked boys with my condi weaver too, let's be serious now. Condi thieves are difficult if you can clear through their first burst they usually cant handle long term pressure. Tbh this video just speaks more to how Condi is over performing in this meta. And that sPvP and WvW are balanced differently.

    +1

    You are correct that Conditions are Toxic in this meta but there is an underlying issue when it comes to Toxicity/Toxic Meta in itself especially when it has been present since Guild Wars 2 beta until this day= Thief Profession

    Thief Profession has been Toxic since Guild Wars 2 release and has been excused from any serious nerfs whereas other Professions since Guild Wars 2 beta has gone through many serious nerfs including conditions.

    Even Condition Mesmer Profession has long gone through many nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta and has been the scapegoat for Condition Thief Profession

    (In other word, it is Mesmer Profession fault for Thief Profession Toxicity including all other Professions, so Blame them instead for all Toxic meta's including , taking away their Perma-dodge/evade because they're the only Profession who can do it)

    WHERE IS THIEF PROFESSION 1 DODGE CONSEQUENCE TOO?!!

    HOW DOES A DPS PROFESSION ROLE HAVE THE ABILITY TO TAP INTO A CONDITON BASE ROLE PROFESSION- NECROMANCER CONDITIONS AND EXCELL IN IT, BETTER THEVEN AN ITS HOLDER??!!

    WHERE ARE NECROMANCER PROFESSION CONDITIONS?!!

    Let us be serious here, isn't dealing with the root cause and removing its influences is the right approach in dealing with Toxicity?

    So why 1 Profession is freely allowed and permitted to continue to be Excused, Destructive and Blameless when it comes to serious nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta?

    WHY IS MESMER PROFESSION BEING BLAMED, USED AS ITS SCAPEGOAT INSTEAD OF TACKLING WITH THE ROOT CAUSE OF ENDLESS PROFESSIONS TOXICITY?!!

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81212/nerf-the-mesmers-for-the-love-of-pvp/p3

    If you genuinely think that condi mirage was fine on release, and that it was nerfed because thief condis were OP, that alone refutes your own point more than anything else I could say.

    my post did not state anything of which you 've stated therefore, i have nothing to reply

    You sure about that?

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Thief Profession has been Toxic since Guild Wars 2 release and has been excused from any serious nerfs whereas other Professions since Guild Wars 2 beta has gone through many serious nerfs including conditions.

    Even Condition Mesmer Profession has long gone through many nerfs since Guild Wars 2 beta and has been the scapegoat for Condition Thief Profession

    (In other word, it is Mesmer Profession fault for Thief Profession Toxicity including all other Professions, so Blame them instead for all Toxic meta's including , taking away their Perma-dodge/evade because they're the only Profession who can do it)

    First of all, you do not know my thoughts so instead you should be asking me for inputs of my though the correct way, Do you think ? What do you think? etc...? Secondly, i never once stated ever on my post (highlight it again)' that Condition Mesmer was fine'.. Lastly,

    Correct, I don't know your thoughts, but I didn't need to ask for your input as you already gave it in the form of your previous post. If what you said there isn't your actual opinion on the matter then it's up to you to clarify that, I can't help you with that one.

    again, nowhere in my post did i ever said that Condition Mesmer Profession was fine, Lastly, not only was Condition Mesmer was nerfed because of Thief Profession....throughout the years, all Professions Conditions were nerfed in favor of Thief Profession.

    The only reason that someone would be upset about condition mesmer being nerfed is if they thought it was fine as it was, and that the nerf was unjustified. If condition mesmer was not fine, then the reason it was nerfed is because it was too strong and that alone. Calling mesmer a scapegoat for thief makes no sense unless you believe mesmer was fine as it was, hence why I inferred that from your post. So if you do agree that condition mesmer was not fine, why are you complaining that it got nerfed? Thief actually has nothing at all to do with that.

    In fact, there is a patch in which Anet gave Thief Profession a huge undeserving, unwarranted increase of Poison Condition Buffs and Punished Mesmer Profession Conditions with nerfs

    You only think that the buff was unwarranted because you don't like thief. That makes about as much sense as if I said ranger pets should not be buffed because I think they are ugly. Bias alone is not a sound argument, and if that is your only point of reasoning it means that you actually have no argument at all.

    None of these Profession- Necromancer, Mesmer, Warrior, Revenant, Ranger, Engineer were given additional Condition buffs increase over condition buffs non other than Thief Profession

    I am 100% sure I could find buffs to condition skills on every single one of those classes within a few minutes of looking. I won't bother though as it would still have absolutely nothing to do with thief.

    (Thief Profession is the only Profession whose given more reasons of excuses for more additional increase of Toxicity. In other word, instead of decreasing an already Toxic Bad Design Profession, buff it even more because it is not enough.)

    You seem to think that thief has only ever received buffs to conditions throughout it's lifetime. Just looking at this year, the May 26th patch saw nerfs to shadow strike, pistol sneak attack and spider venom in PvP and WvW, and the July 7th patch saw access to repeater after using shadow strike be nerfed from 4 seconds to 3. Condition thief was overperforming, and it got nerfed, just like condition mesmer. Fancy that.

    Thief Is The Only Profession Throughout Guild Wars 2 8 Years Where It Is Was Never Given Enough Reason When It Comes To Buffs

    What Exactly Do You Mean By Never Given Enough Reason When It Comes To Buffs? And What Does That Have To Do With Mesmer?


    Mesmer Profession Portal - Portal Entre-August 28, 2012

    'Create an entry portal at your location that teleports allies to your exit portal.'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Portal_Entre

    --Shadow Portal-July 16, 2019

    'Unleash shadow magic at your prepared location, creating a one-way portal for you and your allies. Allies traveling through the portal gain stealth. Weakens foes around the portal's exit.'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_Portal

    I am assuming that your point is that shadow portal wasn't needed on thief. If you look through my post history, you will see that I actually agree with you on that point. If you are trying to say that thief portal shouldn't exist simply because that's something only mesmer should have, then I wonder how you would feel about all stealth skills on mesmer being removed next patch. Because, you know, stealth is thief's thing, so mesmer shouldn't have any stealth for that reason. Right?

    i fully support giving Thief Profession access to Stealth entirely and to remove it from all other Professions without exception including Mesmer Profession. I am 100% against them having Stealth roles to begin with because it goes against their role and their lore.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Team_roles

    Throughout the years i struggle to accept Thief Profession being a Rogue Profession so i finally accepted them being one and had advocated to Anet with the Community to only restrict Stealth to Thief Profession.

    With having a new redesign heathy competitive Stealth mechanic including full removal of Mesmer Profession portal, clones and with their access to their condion-Confusion

    I believe we both can agree with this new positive proposal change for Mesmer Profession and Thief Profession

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • I don't know.. I'm on a Thief and I suck.. running that Rifle roamer build.. I think the only reason why I live so long is because I have stealth to break LOS..

    I tried on my ranger thinking it might be better from reading some builds and videos and I suck with him as well. He was getting CRUSHED.....
    Mind you I solo but I will run with a zerg if I see them around.. Zerg was great to get my mount..
    Nonetheless it all relative.. I will keep playing my rogue until I figure out my keys and less mouse..

  • @manu.7539 said:
    The most used class (at least in T1) these days are probably thieves and rangers. There's some good reasons for that.. rangers can dismount you with a rapid fire then kil u like a sitting duck in few seconds, if u dont believe it just try sw/d weaver.. it happens to me quite often! Thieves.. are thieves, no need to explain how annoying they are! ANET devs must be aware of all that but they obviously doesnt care! How did they manage to build such a nice game but then ruined it with such a bad balance! Money talk I guess, I dont feel like ANET is worthy of my money anymore! Why should I care for a company who doesnt care about their custumers?!?

    The most used ... just lol.

    These few left roamers maybe play teef ranger holo more often than nec and other blob classes (since beta) and the rest from the wvw playerbase 99%, the blob, for sure is not playing teef ... bc it is useless.

    But hey, most used class in wvw is teef ...

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Inoki.6048 said:
    Perhaps one simpler way of making thief a more challenging class to play would be to remove the initiative system and impose cool downs on their skills. Right now it’s way too forgiving as thieves can withdraw from combat as they please, with near-infinite dodges.

    It’s not so much the stealth that’s a problem. It’s rather annoying, but can be countered. Condis are excellent against enemies who use stealth. It’s as easy as that.

    What is hard to counter is the constant step-in-step-out of combat that’s completely out of hand. I know, as I have a thief, and it really doesn’t require much to best someone. It’s funny how those types of core thieves think themselves skilled when in reality it requires little effort to play the specialisation right. That’s not to say Thief doesn’t require mastery, surely it does, as does everything, but the initiative system makes it extremely elusive through spammable skills and on top of that they have boosted Vigor. This just doesn’t make it balanced.

    There should be a way to convert Thief from forgiving to challenging and perhaps my initial thought of removing initiative could accomplish that, or at least add a cool down to each teleport, like with the exhaustion after DD dodge (say, at least 10s after skill 2 on sword), so that they can’t just bounce between locations like crazy but have to time their actions carefully.

    The matter of right and wrong is an endless debate. Take BDO e.g. and their gimmicky movement that’s also just way out of hand, at least in my view, but I can see why some people may like it.

    There’s no way to appease everyone.

    Worst suggestion I've seen yet, Initiative is likely why most people play their thieves and it's a good resource system. Thief is challenging to play, and it has some broken builds, more than one thing can be true at the same time. Thieves aren't all that challenging to fight compared to other classes if you make build choices. A lot of people in this forum don't like making build choices and we get these threads.

    There is nothing challenging about thief. It literally is the easiest class in the game to play and get and secure player kills. Get to choose every fight, regardless of whether the thief initiates it, and can run away from nearly 100% of every fight they choose to. Thief is low to no risk and very high reward.

    ...and there's only 2-4 thieves per map because all the true heroes sacrifice and play lesser classes like necro, warrior or revenant.

    Those are the blobbing classes, this thread is about the overabundance of a few classes in small encounters. It still doesn't change the fact that thief has the easiest time picking, winning or running from any fight they choose. It does not take much skill at all to win fights as thief. You get near infinite chances to win by just resetting until your opponent gets tired or makes a mistake. Low risk, high reward.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • manu.7539manu.7539 Member ✭✭

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    You people go "Rangers are Op" but only 1 out 10 commanders will take them into a zerg, the other 9 commanders tell the ranger to reroll? Yah we're going to dismount you, if we want to slow you down, to keep you from your target destination. Your the enemy. What? We're just supposed to wave at you as you pass by?

    I saw some of our zergs being immobilized in a ranger "immo field" then range bombed, that was very effecient and scary! I think in sufficient numbers rangers could be a nice asset for any open minded commander.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    We have Entangling vines, but they only work when someone isn't got a whole slew of permastability on. Otherwise it's worthless. people say that's not true, and then i'd tell them play ranger for 8 years and get back to me. We have several abilities to "root" enemy down, but they only work when boon strips have been applied to keep the enemy from using Stability. Otherwise, NONE of them work. Vines. Hound. Traited interupt can root an enemy. Against thieves and mesmers and teleport guardians, they are ALL useless.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    We have Entangling vines, but they only work when someone isn't got a whole slew of permastability on. Otherwise it's worthless. people say that's not true, and then i'd tell them play ranger for 8 years and get back to me. We have several abilities to "root" enemy down, but they only work when boon strips have been applied to keep the enemy from using Stability. Otherwise, NONE of them work. Vines. Hound. Traited interupt can root an enemy. Against thieves and mesmers and teleport guardians, they are ALL useless.

    The problem ranger has is huge projectile reflection uptime. Soulbeast otherwise is basically just an easier, safer, and generally more mobile version of pre-rework BQOBK Deadeye. Without projectile reflection spam, the class quickly overruns the WvW meta, as seen by clouding/roaming groups running primarily SB + Sustain Ele + Thief + DH or Scrapper, and the lack of diversity in the small-scale scene for more melee-centric builds which can usually our-trade or burst the thief down. Even with less than 100 hours on soulbeast, my ability to dual and fight 1v2 is often times better than 5k hours on thief and 2k hours on reaper, of which I am one of the better reaper players given my history of having never found the reaper vs. daredevil matchup difficult, consistently out-dueling DE, and having trained more than one reaper to top50 in sPvP.

    Ranger was originally intended to be kept a bit weaker at range because ANet forsaw the problem of pirate shipping before it happened years ago. There was a livestream in like 2013 about longbow damage back before they buffed RF for this exact reason. Then we got hammer Rev and we saw the same thing play out, and it still happens because of Hammer Rev.

    The ranger also has some very unique and very potent group abilities to the point they'd be OP without nerfs elsewhere (looking at vines in particular), but the game's dependence on boon and spammed CC phases out the significance of most of them and their limited sharing uptime.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    Only one reflect that comes to mind for ranger's is Axe off hand. And it doesn't reflect condi wells or AoE's.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:
    What's your alternative? WvW should be necros and guardians everywhere you look?

    Well you see through the invisible thieves in front of them and the pewpew rangers are hidden far behind them, so yes, thats what you already see.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    thieves just need a nerf.
    They are squishy hard hitting classes ,right? No.

    They have immense healing, tons of cleansing, permastealth, permaevade, epic range teleports on mass + hard hitting too.

    There is an epidemic of thieves because they are unkillable, if played right. It doesnt even need fast hands or much knowledge.

    And i forgot the portal... its cancer with permastealth. Not even a tower marker helps if they keep going invis every 2 secs (after 0.5s visible)

    Then why aren't there squads full of them, especially during your "thief epidemic". What immense healing are you talking about, best they can do is keep their health low enough for a heal to replenish fast to keep them over a percentage more often to avoid damage increase off of health percentage. You can't tell me if thieves were all that there wouldn't be squads full of them cleaning up maps in record speed.

    have i said there are no squads of thieves only? ofc there are thief groups from 2 to +10

    and yes they could clean out maps in superspeed, but thieves generally are just there to troll and spawnblock, in which they excel

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @ASP.8093 said:

    If you're playing something that gets eaten alive by ranged burst, I get how this is frustrating, but honestly no amount of nerfs is going to make your build all that useful as a roamer.

    I know that particular player.
    He plays an engi. He has stealth, he has ranged defence and he has ample escape options. What he doesn't have (and so few casual pugs seem to) is awareness of when he's a big, juicy obvious target.

    You left out minstrel, full minstrel scrapper 90% of the time. I don't have any problems dying to ranger and thieves. Most days I can just stand there cause they can't outplay me. It doesn't change my original statement. Thieves are very low risk, high reward. I spent the first couple years on thief, insta-killing people and running from anyone that didn't just explode. I have several years of ranger main, especially the no downstate events, where I can safely delete people from 2k range. I just prefer to heal.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure nearly every strong build in this game can be described as "low risk, high reward" in some capacity.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

    @Virdo.1540 lol no. groups of thieves cannot do much more than single thieves. they cannot fight other zergs effectively. its a weak group play class. the 10 thieves get like 2 kills of a zerg at best and 8 of the 10 die in the process on average. has been tried, they only gank single targets faster in groups, kinda useless.

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

    Scouting is teamplay. Disrupting supply is teamplay. Sneaking your way up to 20-50 people standing around a big wad of catas and shield generators to drop a siege disabler on all their stuff is teamplay. Heck, even tapping stuff or "ganking" reinforcements is teamplay.

    WvW will always have asymmetric situations, resources and information to manage, and team roles that don't involve kitten-riding your commander in zergs.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:

    I don't have any problems dying to ranger and thieves. Most days I can just stand there

    Wait weren't these problem classes a moment ago?
    Now you can just stand there no problem?

    Thieves are very low risk, high reward. I spent the first couple years on thief, insta-killing people and running from anyone that didn't just explode.

    As the saying goes, fraps or it didn't happen.
    Or you could show us in person, we are matched this week after all.

    I really do hope he takes you up on this.
    Please upload the recording for all to see.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:
    he's right as in that both of them are problematic classes since they add nothing for Wvw and are anti-teamplay, but easy to scam some cheap kills. they should get, specifically for Wvw, hard nerfs to their damage to make them more unattractive to pick.

    @Virdo.1540 lol no. groups of thieves cannot do much more than single thieves. they cannot fight other zergs effectively. its a weak group play class. the 10 thieves get like 2 kills of a zerg at best and 8 of the 10 die in the process on average. has been tried, they only gank single targets faster in groups, kinda useless.

    Ya I don't see an all thief squad doing much unless they're all on point, once you have to baby sit one or two people it gets out of hand fast.

    You can do alright in group play though if you can find that threshold for stats that lets you work in a radius for a bit. I build to cover people but most of my control skills and equipment slots also have to help rip or dismantle stuff because it's easier to set something up to flip control of a fight then to sustain.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Thieves are in the same bucket, Thief is the most oppressive class in 1vX still they aren't desired in squads same as Rangers if they can keep the range on the target.

    I'd like to humbly suggest that no class is "oppressive in 1vX." You can talk about what's more or less effective, sure, but nobody's out there single-handedly making entire groups leave a borderland because their class is just so OP in actual combat. (And chasing someone until you get bored is not at all the same thing.)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @KeyOrion.9506 said:
    You people go "Rangers are Op" but only 1 out 10 commanders will take them into a zerg, the other 9 commanders tell the ranger to reroll? Yah we're going to dismount you, if we want to slow you down, to keep you from your target destination. Your the enemy. What? We're just supposed to wave at you as you pass by?

    That's not because the ranger is not a good class for roaming, it is because the ranger does bring nothing to the squad. In an squad you need to provide to the group.
    Thieves are in the same bucket, Thief is the most oppressive class in 1vX still they aren't desired in squads same as Rangers if they can keep the range on the target.

    Stealth in general needs a rework. It is a very oppressive mechanic which breaks any build it touches. It happened to Druid and DH.

    Stealth needs to stop working a some range, so if you are close to the stealthed target you are able to see it. Thus making the class more engaging instead just spam stealth, do malicious backstab, teleport away, rinse and repeat.

    Lmao what? First of thos is literally the perfect example of a stealth rework idea that so extreme it would never happen, like most ideas. A stealth that stops functioning at close range u say, how would that function exactly? Do we just delete the whole backstab mechanic and design cuz we know no ones landing them without being stealth'd unless ur opponent is a potato. So the thief designed as it is would engage in its predominantly melee fashion while being visible, thief would definitely require some hard buffs for that to happen. Not gonna go on but point is a whole thief rework would have to follow a change like stealth being lost at close range. Meaning it will never happen

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    no, because the whole format isn't designed about all elite specs those classes have, period. if ranger and thief had a chronolike thing, they'd be legit. they have not, they are glass or smallscale mainly, which is the opposite that Wvw is built for.

    most of them also don't try to be useful. the few that do also somehow manage to be, just still very nieche and u need not many of them. more than 4-5 of each per map is a weakening of the zergpower.

    (matters less if the zerg'd be voiced and full with veterans, but for most servers that is a extremly utopian scenario)

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Ranger use is sort of declining and there is an increase in thief.
    Come across so many duo of thief/mes or thief/rev and as soon as mes or rev dies, thief just runs away.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sleepwalker.1398 said:
    I think Ranger use is sort of declining and there is an increase in thief.
    Come across so many duo of thief/mes or thief/rev and as soon as mes or rev dies, thief just runs away.

    Thief usually does well in a duo with something sturdy to help it be able to stay in the fight. It runs because once the ally is down it will be focused and die.

    Thief is usually slippery enough that you are better off in XvX focusing targets you can consistently pressure, then aoe the down to secure a kill and avoid a stealth res. Then attack the thief if they are still around.

    Alternatively, you can try to hit the thief with cc during the fight to get them to burn a stun break or two. If they stay in the fight you may be able to briefly focus them down first. It's basically just another version of "watch your cool downs and don't spam into evade spam."

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • By the way, the collective noun for rangers is a 'glory', and not an 'epidemic'. Just saying.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure the problem here? U see a ton of both ranger and thief roaming around cuz that's what the class is best at, u see few in zergs or atleast organized zergs, especially thief. U see a ton of the same classes in zergs but not roaming around cuz thats where their strength's lie so....
    No problems to report really on this front :)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2020

    today we encountered 2 Ranger Profession players using Laser Range Hacks that enhances their bow to hit over 2000 range. Not only that, that Laser Hack allows their bow to +1 shot, immobilize, entangle and daze.

    They are doing it right in the open, shooting laser lightning bows

    One of our Commander was able to share the hack with us through a website (which i will not share) and told us that, Anet is well aware of it because last year, she had made numerous posting about it and instead of Anet caring to take a look into it, they took it down alongside with other players posts reporting it

    -The thread was about Ranger Laser Light Show because i had commented on it as well-

    -before i logged out, i took upon myself to respawn to face the Laser Ranger Profession Hacker on my Ranger Profession; my range couldn't target it or hit it because he was too far. But The Laser Ranger Profession Hacker was the one able to target me and attack me pass 2000 range. He dazed me than +1 shot me and the other came to join in after i died-

    I have no interest of using the laser hack program because i have morals

    --many of the server players also have noticed an increase of them, after we shared our experience--

    With WvW and PvP intentionally being Neglected and intentionally left at its state to be Vulnerable by Hackers, Bot, Cheaters; Toxicity takes it precedence by walking naked in the open, unafraid and laughing at all of us because It Is Allowed To and Does Not Care!!

    (i also forgot to mention, they can stealth too and the laser light is White)

    Clown Fiesta, Perfectly fits WvW/PvP game modes

    'Situations that are present are there because you allow and tolerate them to continue'

  • Truth is that every game needs a class, build, damage type, whatever that allows the below average person to play and feel good about themselves. What would happen if they actually nerfed that absolutely ridiculous kit that rangers have access to? Half of an already minuscule WvW playerbase would just stop playing. You need to balance around the baddies, that's why you have dire condi builds, rangers and whatnot.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Funny you say this epidemic considering neither are meta and really have no space in a zerg so the only thing left is to roam/gank.

    What about the mindless necros/revs/engines in zergs spamming a few skills here and there?

    This^ 100%

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    Funny you say this epidemic considering neither are meta and really have no space in a zerg so the only thing left is to roam/gank.

    What about the mindless necros/revs/engines in zergs spamming a few skills here and there?

    That's reality denial.

    This isn't 2012 anymore. Times have changed. Population issues and bandwagoning result in lots of servers doing smallscale fights 80% of the week. So it's 80% prime time for thieves and rangers.

  • @manu.7539 said:
    The most used class (at least in T1) these days are probably thieves and rangers. There's some good reasons for that.. rangers can dismount you with a rapid fire then kill u like a sitting duck in few seconds, if u dont believe it just try sw/d weaver.. it happens to me quite often! Thieves.. are thieves, no need to explain how annoying they are! ANET devs must be aware of all that but they obviously doesnt care! How did they manage to build such a nice game but then ruined it with such a bad balance! Money talk I guess, I dont feel like ANET is worthy of my money anymore! Why should I care for a company who doesnt care about their custumers?!?

    If a ranger pops their rapid fire to burst down your mount how does he kill you afterwards when his main burst damage skill is on CD? Unless your build is glass cannon and really bad in 1v1 I don't see how that happens. Most of the time all it takes is a single evasion jump on your mount to negate more than half the damage from rapid fire. I've never gotten dismounted ever from a rapid fire when at full health. I don't think any ranger that knows what they're doing would waste their RF on a player mount to begin with since it's far easier to use their Mount #4 to dismount the opponent and follow that up with RF on the player.

    You don't sound like you know what you're talking about.