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Fractal Consumables

The existence of consumables that equip players with high control skills creates an unintended play pattern involving combat with the inventory panel open. It's our goal that encounters with substantial defiance bars be addressed by build changes rather than reliance on consumables, and for this reason we are disabling several items in dungeon and fractal content. The following consumable items are no longer usable in dungeons or fractals:

Metal Rod
Power Matrix
Rock
Wooden Plank
Sentinel Rifle
Termite Shovel

Let's have a moment of silence for our fallen consumables.

If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.

<13

Comments

  • :'(:'(:'(:'(:'(

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • and not ting people actily to open world to to evend to get cc but nooo and dont forget the havend nerf cc bar in 100cm soo it still 3000

  • TPMN.1483TPMN.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Well how long is it before we expect a quick new meta shift ? Looks like we're going to have to equip CC skills again...

  • Wisty.4135Wisty.4135 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh no. Our cheese has spoiled and we'll have to make more.:(

  • So much sadness :(

  • Bannerslaves: "Looks like Mace is back on the menu boys"

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm really happy about this. Since people kept demanding ccc n lfg as requirement without having dps to really used it

  • ArenaNet and balancing is almost as iconic of a duo as Renegade and build templates. Looking forward to not pugging anymore! 😎✌✌

    minecrafter

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

  • @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Not really, i play alac in fract and with pug parties i use all my cc (staff 5 + those from legends + axe 5...) AND cc cons because usually ppl don't use cc at all in random CM groups (not an issue in static).

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Not really, i play alac in fract and with pug parties i use all my cc (staff 5 + those from legends + axe 5...) AND cc cons because usually ppl don't use cc at all in random CM groups (not an issue in static).

    There are always bad players

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

    Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

    Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

    It's just going to leave the content dead after all those most invested players who enjoyed all those intricacies have left.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Saniyah.1984Saniyah.1984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

    Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

    Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

    It's just going to leave the content dead after all those most invested players who enjoyed all those intricacies have left.

    The groups you talked about are statics(should be) LFG groups are NOT hardcore lolol
    The problem was it becme and lfg requirement. that meant no choice
    Also the groups i joined without consumables are ussually better than with and 3 hours is super rare for me.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

    Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

    Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

    It's just going to leave the content dead after all those most invested players who enjoyed all those intricacies have left.

    The groups you talked about are statics(should be)
    The problem was it becme and lfg requirement. that meant no choice
    Also the groups i joined without consumables are ussually better than with and 3 hours is super rare for me.

    The choice is to make your own group without those requirements, wait for a group not having those requirements, or to fullfill those requirements.

    Consumables have been a part of Fractals for years and years now, clearly they were not the problem here, nor were KP before them, nor are Pot's and Food after them, and (Choya etc.)Tonics beyond that.
    At this point Anet is just mandating what people are allowed to look for in their own LFG's or not like some authoritarian regime, in the most heavy handed way possible, by removing things they don't like being asked for from the game altogether. Everything further than playing at or asking for the lowest common denominator is outlawed.
    That just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

    If I don't want to play with consumables, I just make a group not asking for it. What's the issue with that?
    For those who do want to play with consumables though, now there isn't any choice. Previously there was.

    @Saniyah.1984 said:
    LFG groups are NOT hardcore lolol

    Right, the ~30m , preclear, Reset 750KP+ LFG speedrunners and such are super casual ofc, and people aren't allowed to play the way they want and with whom they want outside of statics. Makes sense. That's why it's called the "Looking for casual group system", and not LFG, right?

    I guess I didn't get the memo that hardcore players weren't allowed to utilise the LFG, or if they do, by definition aren't hardcore.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Carcharoth Lucian.1378Carcharoth Lucian.1378 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Anyone is free not to join those groups or make their own ones, same with KP.

    Even as someone who long quit playing this game in any hardcore capacity, I just find it silly to repeatedly punish the few remaining hardcore players making their own groups with their own requirements, just because others are too lazy to make their own groups not demanding any KP or consumables.

    Not every group has to be for everybody, regardless of skill, experience or willingness to put in effort. That's such a silly utopia to push for. No one not wanting to play with consumables is harmed by someone else making a group demanding it, and the idea that everybody is just going to make "Everybody welcome, lets take 3h to clear this 45m daily content" groups once KP, Consumables, Tonics, Pot's, Food, AR, etc. is all removed from the game to make it more "accessible" is ridiculous and imo misguided.

    Also the groups i joined without consumables are ussually better than with and 3 hours is super rare for me.

    To complete @Asum.4960, it's not because the lfg don't ask for cc cons that the players in the party don't use it either (on CM100).

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit.

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Only Even.6193Only Even.6193 Member ✭✭✭

    Time to bring 5 Guardians with Sanctuary for cheesy 100CM CCs, so they can nerf Guards too !

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait this guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    ?

    People start to ask for it because the breakbar of the boss (in 100CM only) in hugh! (=3200)
    To break it, all players need to use their cc skills, not just alac/war (it's not enough), good luck with pugs...

    I know why. I know you(as in eveyone not just Carcharoth) also got to not sacrifice dps for CC because of them which is why anet took a look after seeing the wood plank spam in lfg I bet. You wanna be shady you gotta be discreet not advertise it

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This isn't the 1st time they disabled consumables in content too. I remember some ash legion kit one of my characters has like 200 of no idea why

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    Time to bring 5 Guardians with Sanctuary for cheesy 100CM CCs, so they can nerf Guards too !

    Oh so 1 extra guardian. That might be tough

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I can understand removal of consumables, but I don't understand doing it without looking at defiance bars.
    No rebalance of CC bars or additional defiance bar damage from boon corrupts or other such skill types that don't contribute isn't helpful.

    This essentially cements an alacrity renegade spot along with guardian/berserker/soulbeasts in 98/99. I don't believe that it will suddenly make chrono gravity well suddenly sought after as the recharge is too high.

    Defiance bar damage:

    rev: 100 per hit up to 6 times Dark Razor's Daring (12s cooldown), 300 from Jade Winds (basically uses all your energy even if 5s cooldown), 150 per hit from Surge of the Mists (20 cooldown), 200 from Scorchrazor (12s cooldown, only condi RR) , 150 from Call to Anguish (3s cooldown but gated by energy cost , condi RR), 150 from Temporal Rift (15s cooldown, condi RR)

    guardian: 150 per pulse up to 5 times from Sanctuary (60s cooldown, utility slot), 300 from bane signet (30s cooldown or 24s when traited, utility slot) , 150 from Blazing edge (12s cooldown), 150 with shield of absorption (offhand shield , 20s cooldown) , 100 with symbol of vengeance (traited typically on CFB, 8s cooldown)

    warrior mace: 332 with wild blow (30s cooldown , utility slot) , 300 damage with offhand mace Tremor (25s cooldown), 100 damage with pommel bash (12s cooldown) , skull grinder (5s cooldown burst skill) , full counter (if running spellbreaker for some reason in PVE)

    ranger : 150 from Path of Scars (axe offhand ,15s cooldown or 12s traited), 150 from Point Blank Shot (longbow, 15s cooldown or 12s traited), 150 from Hilt Bash (Greatsword , 25s cooldown) , 232 from Head Toss (Rock Gazelle, 20s cooldown), 200 from Charge (Rock Gazelle merged skill, 15s cooldown), 200 from Concussion shot (shortbow, 25s cooldown)

    elementalist: 400 from Gale (focus offhand , 40s cooldown), 200 from Earthquake (dagger offhand , 30s cooldown), 332 from Updraft (dagger offhand, 40s cooldown), from Gale Strike (Weaver sword mainhand, 20s cooldown), 200 from the rarely used Mudslide (20s cooldown,weaver dagger dual attack), 200 from Comet (focus offhand, 25s cooldown), 150 from Cyclone (Tempest warhorn offhand, 25s cooldown) , 150 from Tidal Surge (Tempest warhorn offhand, 35s cooldown) , 150 from the rarely used Katabatic Wind (weaver mainhand dagger dual attack, 18s cooldown) , 100 from Transmute Lightning (requires shock aura and dagger mainhand, 10s cooldown)

    mesmer : 550 total defiance bar damage from Gravity well (90 cooldown), 200 from magic bullet (25 cooldown , condi builds) , 100-200 from tides of time (chrono with shield only , 30s cooldown) , 50 from power lock (24s ammo cooldown) , 100 from Diversion/Time Sink per clone (38s cooldown)

    holo : 332 damage from Big Ol Bomb (20s cooldown), 232 damage from Holographic Shockwave (Photon Forge , 15s cooldown), 232 damage from Prime Light Beam (60s cooldown , elite slot)

    necro : 200 from Oppressive Collapse (scourge only, 25s cooldown), 200 from Charge on Flesh Golem (40s cooldown, elite slot), 200 from Chilled to the Bone (utility slot Reaper only , 90s cooldown) , 200-300 depending on if traited from Wail of Doom (warhorn , 30s cooldown) ,150 from Executioner's Scythe (Reaper only in shroud, 30s cooldown), 150 from Grasping Darkness (Reaper only , 25 cooldown), 150 from Spectral Grasp (utility slot, 35s cooldown)

    thief: unless you're running sword+pistol for pistol whip (100 defiance bar damage per use for 5 initiative = effectively recharges in 5s once initiative is depleted) or 200 defiance bar damage off headshot (200 defiance bar damage per use for 4 initiative) you are relying on utility skills ; 150 per hit up to 5 people from Basilisk Venom (40s cooldown elite skill)

    Most likely because anet when making defiance bars didn't take into effect us spamming consumables so why would they now. All you smart players will adjust. This again hurts anyone who hasn't cracked elite status and skill level and is currently locked out of the reqs that are set

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait this guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    ?

    People start to ask for it because the breakbar of the boss (in 100CM only) in hugh! (=3200)
    To break it, all players need to use their cc skills, not just alac/war (it's not enough), good luck with pugs...

    I know why. I know you also got to not sacrifice dps for CC because of them which is why anet took a look after seeing the wood plank spam in lfg I bet. You wanna be shady you gotta be discreet not advertise it

    Have you read what you quote? I said i use all my cc so i don't try to dps at all cost.

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    Not really, i play alac in fract and with pug parties i use all my cc (staff 5 + those from legends + axe 5...) AND cc cons because usually ppl don't use cc at all in random CM groups (not an issue in static).

    There are always bad players

    Its not that they are bad players. I suppose you could say they are bad but They are dps greedy people. They can't hurt their dps number by clicking on consumable or taking cc instead of something that might give them 500 more dps. Or worse, they don't use/save CC and they wont cc unless its within their rotation.
    I have encountered this quite a lot on 100 cm which is not problem anymore coz I am retired from that content because of blinding lightfest.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Saniyah.1984 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    No more proper templates to quickly adapt and play how you want, no more proper KP to find and join the players/groups you want to, and now more consumables as optional added depth to substitute builds and increase variety.

    I've never seen a company so hell bent on killing off their hardcore communities who love their game.

    Even as someone who generally didn't enjoy playing with consumables (save for some CC only exceptions like speeding up Artsariiv), this is just yet another patch taking ultimately optional things out of the game for really no proper reason, rather than adding anything of value to it. Something that's been a trend for quite some time now.

    I think, it's because people started demanding consumables in lfg. So its a bit their own fault. When they removed KP people should have guessed it was to prevented gate keeping yet they made worse gate keeping with forcing ppl to used consumables even alac and HB even tho they can just used staff 5 and sanctuary to do plenty of cc, but nope that 1K more dps was all that counted even if only few ppl in lfg even reack 20K dps that's totally carry

    CC consumables are way, way easier to get than KP, lmao.

  • @TPMN.1483 said:
    Well how long is it before we expect a quick new meta shift ? Looks like we're going to have to equip CC skills again...

    @Brandon Uzumaki.1524 said:
    Bannerslaves: "Looks like Mace is back on the menu boys"

    The current fractal meta is not using any CC consumables. All bars can be broken without.

    However, this requires rather high amount of precision and often fails, especially pugs are not aware of their duties to contribute to CC. Many people still believe that CC is the job of the renegade and warrior despite it being a group effort for nearly 2 years now.
    Many players, who are aware of the CC mechanics join a pug would rod and shovel every bar to make the run effectively a lot smoother can't do this now even if they play different utilities or builds. This will make the pug experience even worse than it already is and ONLY screws the entry level fractal players.

    The fractal designers should start to look into how to communicate the importance of the CC bar so new players learn about the importance of breaking it and that everyone has to contribute to it.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait this guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    ?

    People start to ask for it because the breakbar of the boss (in 100CM only) in hugh! (=3200)
    To break it, all players need to use their cc skills, not just alac/war (it's not enough), good luck with pugs...

    I know why. I know you also got to not sacrifice dps for CC because of them which is why anet took a look after seeing the wood plank spam in lfg I bet. You wanna be shady you gotta be discreet not advertise it

    Have you read what you quote? I said i use all my cc so i don't try to dps at all cost.

    You as the "most players" not you as you as an individual

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

    Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area? Yes it's different. I don't even want to converse with someone who obviously can't see the diff between food and skills and stuff like that with some dumb level 22 rock you buy as a joke type thing in early zones not to drop on end game content

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Carcharoth Lucian.1378 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait this guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    ?

    People start to ask for it because the breakbar of the boss (in 100CM only) in hugh! (=3200)
    To break it, all players need to use their cc skills, not just alac/war (it's not enough), good luck with pugs...

    I know why. I know you also got to not sacrifice dps for CC because of them which is why anet took a look after seeing the wood plank spam in lfg I bet. You wanna be shady you gotta be discreet not advertise it

    Have you read what you quote? I said i use all my cc so i don't try to dps at all cost.

    You as the "most players" not you as you as an individual

    ah ok, i was mislead because you quote me

    Carcharoth Lucian/Mini Chibii
    Ruin of Surmia world
    PvE : [CdL] Les Chasseurs De Légendes
    WvW : [MIMs] Mobile Ingénieuse Et Marteau

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:>
    @Jilora.9524 said:
    As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

    The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.
    Only added this last comment to you because of some edit 1h later I never would of seen if I didn't recheck something you said

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • @Mayga.7241 said:
    Dear Anet! Interesting changes. And an interesting position. "encounters with substantial defiance bars be addressed by build changes rather than reliance on consumables"(c)
    I have a little question. We have already seen your stream, in which you pass 25 fractal. Can we now see your stream in which you are passing 100cm fractal for DwD with any setup (excluding 4 guardians +alac)? And show us how do you perform mechanics of cm fractal you've created (without consumables). I think it will be very interesting for all of us. And you will like it too, I have no doubt.

    3 scourage + hb alac can do it very easily actually. In Fact, its a go to method for alot of pug for DWD.

  • @Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

    3 scourage + hb alac can do it very easily actually. In Fact, its a go to method for alot of pug for DWD.

    Well, let's see what setup they will choose if they suddenly agree to stream their passage 100cm for dwd. I excluded only the easiest way in my opinion. And of course I forgot to attach the sarcasm sign :)

  • Wisty.4135Wisty.4135 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm liking this change. Fractal groups have literally not changed at all for me so far, and I doubt they will. Overreactions to a non-issue are just that.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

    Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area?

    They don't sell food there either.

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:>
    @Jilora.9524 said:
    As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

    The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.

    Yea, no. I'm not offended, just deeply disappointed with the direction the game has been going for while now since I really enjoyed it, being with the franchise since Prophecies 15+ years ago.
    And to reiterate, I'm personally not a fan of consumables and outside of things like Artsariiv, where without them you just have to stand around uselessly and wait for cooldowns, rarely used them.
    I would rather join or make a group not requiring them than one that does, and personally rather just adjust my build to contain more or less CC depending on demand.
    That doesn't mean that I can't defend them being valuable as option and added depth to the game on principle.

    Things is, this isn't just about purely optional CC consumables being removed - which were mostly used and nice to help out less proficient players, carrying CC for them to provide a smooth run, but a general trend Anet has being going down over the last year or two especially, in which we get to see next to no content added to the game, while pretty much every other patch takes things out of the game that people have been using and enjoying for years without issue, for incredibly poorly thought out reasons of increasing accessibility, which pretty much always, predictably, backfired.

    The game gets more simplified, less interactive and interesting by the patch, revenue and likely population is continuously dropping, and meanwhile the people who rather complain and want to take toys away from others rather than getting their own and making their own groups and play the way they like, in who's name this is all done, still just do that - forever moving the goalpost in complaining about what "toxic elitist" thing is barring their entry into content that just isn't for them, no matter what steps Anet takes, while overtime destroying the content for those who did actually enjoy and play it regularly or even daily.

    Anet is sacrificing the quality and complexity of the game and it's content, and the majority of the palyerbase which actually enjoyed it, for a vocal minority who was, is and never will be actually playing that content at large, and are just using everything hardcore as scapegoat.

    Players who complained about Arc Templates and celebrated their removal for Anet's native lacklustre solution at large stated they themselves didn't want or need Templates, ultimately they just didn't want other's to have something they didn't care to get. As a price, many players who relied on and enjoyed proper Templates quit.

    Players who complained about KP and celebrated their removal are now that they are gone not going hard on playing Fractals, they just didn't like the idea of it and something not super easily being accessible to them (if they are actually interested in it or not), and just wanted others not to have that option, while moving on to the next thing that apparently locks them out of the content (like doing a 5 minute heart event and buying a consumable CC item). As price, many players who enjoyed and relied on such a group finding tool quit.

    Now CC consumables, which were used since years, are gone too - once again taking something away from that content and how it was played and enjoyed by many for years.

    Is the world whole now? Is everybody playing Fractals en masse now? Ofc not, there's got to be another thing to complain about next that is apparently keeping people form that content.
    Anet fails to realise that they can't please everybody. Hardcore content is always going to primarily for more hardcore players. By repeatedly dumbing down the game/content to appeal to those who aren't actually interested in it anyway and just don't like others having their fun that they can't or want to have, they are just gonna be left with dead content appealing to no one eventually.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

    Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area?

    They don't sell food there either.

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:>
    @Jilora.9524 said:
    As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

    The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.

    Yea, no. I'm not offended, just deeply disappointed with the direction the game has been going for while now since I really enjoyed it, being with the franchise since Prophecies 15+ years ago.
    And to reiterate, I'm personally not a fan of consumables and outside of things like Artsariiv, where without them you just have to stand around uselessly and wait for cooldowns, rarely used them.
    I would rather join or make a group not requiring them than one that does, and personally rather just adjust my build to contain more or less CC depending on demand.
    That doesn't mean that I can't defend them being valuable as option and added depth to the game on principle.

    Things is, this isn't just about purely optional CC consumables being removed - which were mostly used and nice to help out less proficient players, carrying CC for them to provide a smooth run, but a general trend Anet has being going down over the last year or two especially, in which we get to see next to no content added to the game, while pretty much every other patch takes things out of the game that people have been using and enjoying for years without issue, for incredibly poorly thought out reasons of increasing accessibility, which pretty much always, predictably, backfired.

    The game gets more simplified, less interactive and interesting by the patch, revenue and likely population is continuously dropping, and meanwhile the people who rather complain and want to take toys away from others rather than getting their own and making their own groups and play the way they like, in who's name this is all done, still just do that - forever moving the goalpost in complaining about what "toxic elitist" thing is barring their entry into content that just isn't for them, no matter what steps Anet takes, while overtime destroying the content for those who did actually enjoy and play it regularly or even daily.

    Anet is sacrificing the quality and complexity of the game and it's content, and the majority of the palyerbase which actually enjoyed it, for a vocal minority who was, is and never will be actually playing that content at large, and are just using everything hardcore as scapegoat.

    Players who complained about Arc Templates and celebrated their removal for Anet's native lacklustre solution at large stated they themselves didn't want or need Templates, ultimately they just didn't want other's to have something they didn't care to get. As a price, many players who relied on and enjoyed proper Templates quit.

    Players who complained about KP and celebrated their removal are now that they are gone not going hard on playing Fractals, they just didn't like the idea of it and something not super easily being accessible to them (if they are actually interested in it or not), and just wanted others not to have that option, while moving on to the next thing that apparently locks them out of the content (like doing a 5 minute heart event and buying a consumable CC item). As price, many players who enjoyed and relied on such a group finding tool quit.

    Now CC consumables, which were used since years, are gone too - once again taking something away from that content and how it was played and enjoyed by many for years.

    Is the world whole now? Is everybody playing Fractals en masse now? Ofc not, there's got to be another thing to complain about next that is apparently keeping people form that content.
    Anet fails to realise that they can't please everybody. Hardcore content is always going to primarily for more hardcore players. By repeatedly dumbing down the game/content to appeal to those who aren't actually interested in it anyway and just don't like others having their fun that they can't or want to have, they are just gonna be left with dead content appealing to no one eventually.

    Well you seem to have a more in depth issue with gw2 as a whole. These changes which anet implemented don't help any newer players or those in t2-t3 and someday working up but it still was silly that 100cm were using items like those and again the spam in lfg probably caused anet to do this. You will be fine or anyone who's does t4 and cms everyday. You just might take longer. Some of you are way under 45m for a full run and the amount of loot for that time is high. Maybe that's the reason for the changes. Idk. It's not that I agree with these last 2 fractal changes it kinda is they both make sense to try and stop this shady cc thing and try and stop players from be excluded from content. Both these changes probably won't help because speed clearers and so called elitists will adjust but pugs will be hurt more.

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • @Wolfb.7025 said:

    The existence of consumables that equip players with high control skills creates an unintended play pattern involving combat with the inventory panel open. It's our goal that encounters with substantial defiance bars be addressed by build changes rather than reliance on consumables, and for this reason we are disabling several items in dungeon and fractal content. The following consumable items are no longer usable in dungeons or fractals:

    "The existence of a Challenge Mote Fractal Boss with 1.5x times the Defiance Bar Damage required for an average Raid Boss in a 5 player mode creates an unintended need for players to involve combat with the inventory panel open. So we have decided to disable said consumables so you all can struggle even more by taking the possibly only way of getting through these phases without having to change your build and your rotation AKA the way you desire to play."

    I'm going to have to disagree with you. The problem with consumables is exactly what you suggest is a desired way to play. Combat shouldn't be about memorizing a rotation and expecting that to work in every situation. Rather, it should be about preparing for and adapting to the new challenges any additional content presents. Consumables allowed players to circumvent the need to change their builds to fit the needs of the situation at hand. That only helped to stagnate what would be considered meta and limited the ability to open up new roles and patterns of play that keeps content feeling fresh. With a build system offering as much flexibility as it does, changing what works best should should be encouraged whenever possible.

    Count me as someone who wholeheartedly supports this change. I'm not saying that every new encounter needs to be built to force players to rethink how they build and use cc, but I can only see it as a net positive for build diversity and the creation of new ways to play. Maybe this opens up room for some lesser-used weapons, traits and builds to see play at high levels. Some builds like LR weaver, which are not really seen as optimal in pve, could see consideration for some instances of high-level endgame (this coming from the selfish perspective of a player who spends a majority of the time running LR weaver in pve). And if after a while the devs feel that the change creates too much of a burden on players, they can always adjust the scaling of breakbars as needed.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    Do you honestly think a wooden plank or a rock should do more CC then actual skills. You cause this issues when you start demanding them in lfg which puts the usually oblivious anet to go hey wait these guys aren't passing content in a way we find legit. As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Do you think Pot's and Food should give a much greater damage boost than the majority of Traits? I hear those have been demanded almost universally in LFG too!
    The Choya tonic also gives a greater speed boost than any skill, trait or boon in the game. Clearly that should be removed too.

    Where is the line here, and how dumbed down does the game have to get before the people complaining about everything that makes them have to put in effort and make their own groups is removed before they are happy? And will there still anyone to play with at that point?

    Is knowing your rotations, which drastically increases your DPS over randomly pressing buttons, the next "discriminatory" thing after all those which has to be removed by giving everybody just an auto attack or smth?

    I'm sure if everyone started writing bring yo Choya's anet might notice. Anet draws the line. And the food and pot comparison is just silly and is diff then requiring me to go buy out a vendor of planks and rocks

    So buying and demanding food consumables for a DPS boost is completely different to buying and demanding CC consumables for a CC boost. Got it.

    Do they sell effing rocks and planks in the fractal area?

    They don't sell food there either.

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:>
    @Jilora.9524 said:
    As always tho elitist tears are always the yummiest

    Right, once all those "elitist" players who enjoy the game as originally designed and just want to play their way with like minded players, enjoying all the intricacies of the game without harming anyone else since they can just make their own groups, are gone, and only people like you who actively revel in the displeasure and disappointment of others, toxicity truly will have been defeated.

    The tears thing was a joke. Only an elitist would get offended so hard tho. Yeah anet put rocks and planks on vendors and they were designed to have 5 guys in their hardest content swinging away on end bosses with the best rewards. It's baffling to me how you think that any of what you just said can't be still accomplished w/o said rocks and planks. Now you are doomed to never play with like minded players again.

    Yea, no. I'm not offended, just deeply disappointed with the direction the game has been going for while now since I really enjoyed it, being with the franchise since Prophecies 15+ years ago.
    And to reiterate, I'm personally not a fan of consumables and outside of things like Artsariiv, where without them you just have to stand around uselessly and wait for cooldowns, rarely used them.
    I would rather join or make a group not requiring them than one that does, and personally rather just adjust my build to contain more or less CC depending on demand.
    That doesn't mean that I can't defend them being valuable as option and added depth to the game on principle.

    Things is, this isn't just about purely optional CC consumables being removed - which were mostly used and nice to help out less proficient players, carrying CC for them to provide a smooth run, but a general trend Anet has being going down over the last year or two especially, in which we get to see next to no content added to the game, while pretty much every other patch takes things out of the game that people have been using and enjoying for years without issue, for incredibly poorly thought out reasons of increasing accessibility, which pretty much always, predictably, backfired.

    The game gets more simplified, less interactive and interesting by the patch, revenue and likely population is continuously dropping, and meanwhile the people who rather complain and want to take toys away from others rather than getting their own and making their own groups and play the way they like, in who's name this is all done, still just do that - forever moving the goalpost in complaining about what "toxic elitist" thing is barring their entry into content that just isn't for them, no matter what steps Anet takes, while overtime destroying the content for those who did actually enjoy and play it regularly or even daily.

    Anet is sacrificing the quality and complexity of the game and it's content, and the majority of the palyerbase which actually enjoyed it, for a vocal minority who was, is and never will be actually playing that content at large, and are just using everything hardcore as scapegoat.

    Players who complained about Arc Templates and celebrated their removal for Anet's native lacklustre solution at large stated they themselves didn't want or need Templates, ultimately they just didn't want other's to have something they didn't care to get. As a price, many players who relied on and enjoyed proper Templates quit.

    Players who complained about KP and celebrated their removal are now that they are gone not going hard on playing Fractals, they just didn't like the idea of it and something not super easily being accessible to them (if they are actually interested in it or not), and just wanted others not to have that option, while moving on to the next thing that apparently locks them out of the content (like doing a 5 minute heart event and buying a consumable CC item). As price, many players who enjoyed and relied on such a group finding tool quit.

    Now CC consumables, which were used since years, are gone too - once again taking something away from that content and how it was played and enjoyed by many for years.

    Is the world whole now? Is everybody playing Fractals en masse now? Ofc not, there's got to be another thing to complain about next that is apparently keeping people form that content.
    Anet fails to realise that they can't please everybody. Hardcore content is always going to primarily for more hardcore players. By repeatedly dumbing down the game/content to appeal to those who aren't actually interested in it anyway and just don't like others having their fun that they can't or want to have, they are just gonna be left with dead content appealing to no one eventually.

    Well you seem to have a more in depth issue with gw2 as a whole. These changes which anet implemented don't help any newer players or those in t2-t3 and someday working up but it still was silly that 100cm were using items like those and again the spam in lfg probably caused anet to do this. You will be fine or anyone who's does t4 and cms everyday. You just might take longer. Some of you are way under 45m for a full run and the amount of loot for that time is high. Maybe that's the reason for the changes. Idk.

    I mostly quit PvE since everybody I played with quit and I'm not satisfied with the amount (or rather lack of) new content and all the little changes like this, chipping away at all the little intricacies that made the content fun for me (from having highly specialised fun builds per encounter with Arc Templates, to fall damage trait skips, to consumables, to group finding, etc.), so I'm personally not really affected by these changes anymore, although they are still a shame to see.

    Ofc I would still be completely fine playing the content, it's just progressively less interesting to do so, and I don't really blame all the ex players in old guild Discords just going "welp, I'm glad I already quit" upon seeing all these changes, taking stuff out of the game - rather than adding new stuff and winning players back.

    @Jilora.9524 said:
    It's not that I agree with these last 2 fractal changes it kinda is they both make sense to try and stop this shady cc thing and try and stop players from be excluded from content. Both these changes probably won't help because speed clearers and so called elitists will adjust but pugs will be hurt more.

    That's exactly the thing. Long term highly proficient players, especially those part of statics still, aren't really affected. They might quit over time bc the game just keeps getting less interesting, but in terms of being able to clear the content easily, they don't need KP, consumables or anything.
    These things just used to make the content more fun and interactive and clears faster, but were never necessary.

    The ones really being hurt by those changes are those who cry for them and then celebrate them the most. As more hardcore players quit or move into statics the content becomes less and less accessible and lively on the LFG, and I doubt anyone is helped if all that's left there eventually are sellers, and even those players who still are fine with carrying less proficient players on LFG won't have tools like CC consumables to do so anymore, eventually just giving up after repeated wipes which they simply cannot carry over alone anymore by digging deep into these optional systems.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019