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Icebrood Saga: Champions (spoilers)

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 27, 2020 in Lore

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=rss
The episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

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Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

    It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

    Yeah, if we make a truce with anyone it would be Bangar IMO. Bangar got screwed, knows it, and hates Jormag. But his name would still carries some power in the remaining Dominion/Frost Legion Charr. That or, as we saw in the ICebrood Saga trailer, and as you mentioned yourself, centaurs.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

    WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    We could be uniting the rest of Charr or all races who might be in conflict (perhaps including Centaur) in a truce to combat this threat.

    Yeah, if we make a truce with anyone it would be Bangar IMO. Bangar got screwed, knows it, and hates Jormag. But his name would still carries some power in the remaining Dominion/Frost Legion Charr. That or, as we saw in the ICebrood Saga trailer, and as you mentioned yourself, centaurs.

    That makes a lot more sense

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

    WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

    Exactly. The aim was to kill both in one swoop which Balth took over when we realised how problematic that was

    Ultimately it's a no win situation to side with Jormag. We help them, we then have Jormag stab us in the back or continue to corrupt our allies (which is probably what a truce would involve anyway). Why side with one or the other when we have Aurene anyway

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It would. But killing the dragons is currently out of the question. And the only way we got Primordius to back off last time was by using Jormag.

    WE didn't do anything. Blathazar used Taimi's machine to try to harness the powers of the dragons, and that caused them both to go into hibernation.

    On purpose no. But it still remains that Jormag was part of the process to make Primordius comatose, even if it was unintentional.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Ultimately it's a no win situation to side with Jormag. We help them, we then have Jormag stab us in the back or continue to corrupt our allies (which is probably what a truce would involve anyway). Why side with one or the other when we have Aurene anyway

    Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon. He's literally the Dragon of Conflagration. The largest in size. And his minions don't get to enjoy as much freedom.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon.

    Uhh no. Aurne has never mentioned Primordus, she has said Jormag is moving around the Mists planning something.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because according to Aurene, Primordius is flying around in the Mists planning something. And on the whole. Jormag has always been the less destructive dragon.

    Uhh no. Aurne has never mentioned Primordus, she has said Jormag is moving around the Mists planning something.

    I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

    There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=rss
    The episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

    I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

    Edit: I forgot from Jormag Rising Primordius is moving and a threat to come.

    Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-icebrood-saga-champions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=news&utm_campaign=rss
    The episode titles are going to be Truce, Power, Balance, and then Judgement.

    I have a feeling we are going to truce with Jormag to defeat Primordius. They were disabled the same time as Jormag, and we know Jormag continued to do stuff, but we don't know what Primordius has being doing this whole time. And if there was ever was an enemy of my enemy is my friend situation, it would be the source of Jormag's weakness.

    Edit: I forgot from Jormag Rising Primordius is moving and a threat to come.

    Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

    That too.

    Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.
    Each chapter of The Icebrood Saga: Champions introduces new Dragon Response Missions, which can be tackled solo or in a group of up to five players. In these encounters, you’ll head to invasion points to shore up defenses and protect the area from rampaging dragon minions. Work together with allied reinforcements to neutralize powerful dragon champions—the ultimate threat at the heart of the assaults

    But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

    During global faction mobilization events, players can pitch in to train, rally, and build trust with factions both familiar and unlikely. You’ll be rewarded for your efforts, and your allies will begin randomly appearing in Dragon Response Missions to lend their special strengths to the fight.

    Befriending the Frost Legion sounds weird. But I could see Ryland leading them against Primordus.

    The new incursions could also be from the water dragon. Which ice would also help with.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    duplicate.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters.

    What gives you that idea?

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    My first thought is that the Truce isn't with Jormag, but with Dominion remnants. A true end to the Civil War and all conflicts with the charr (e.g., human-charr conflict), ushering in a new era of peace for charrkind under a new form of leadership brought on by the vacuum of Bangar's imprisonment and Smodur's death.

    If it is about a truce between Aurene+Commander and Jormag+Ryland, then it will be one forced upon us by Primordus' immediate and unprepared-for rise. If this happens, it will no doubt be directly revealed in the final topic of Bangar's discussions, "Jormag's Enemy".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

    There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

    Assuming that Aurene and the Commander would work with either. It isn't impossible to take them both down, assuming we have a means to keep the world from dying in the process.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

    If by the text preview you're referring to the phrases like "to shake Tyria to its core" and "An Earth-Shattering Story Finale", I would not put much emphasis on those. Anet has used similar terminology before, and people proudly and loudly shouted out "PRIMORDUS IS COMING!" but it was just about something else. Like Scarlet's reveal during Clockwork Chaos being preluded with a message talking about fire and destruction, or tremors being felt just being about Mordremoth.

    I do think that Primordus can - and likely will - get involved in the remaining four episodes, but I wouldn't take the phrasing as hints to such, per se.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

    Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.

    During global faction mobilization events, players can pitch in to train, rally, and build trust with factions both familiar and unlikely. You’ll be rewarded for your efforts, and your allies will begin randomly appearing in Dragon Response Missions to lend their special strengths to the fight.

    Befriending the Frost Legion sounds weird. But I could see Ryland leading them against Primordus.

    The new incursions could also be from the water dragon. Which ice would also help with.

    They've used similar terminology about "unlikely allies" before. They used it in Season 1 to refer to the biconics. They used it in HoT to refer to the hylek and exalted. They even used it in Season 4 to refer to the Awakened.

    I wouldn't think Frost Legion from that. It could be literally anyone. Like dredge, grawl, or jotun.

    While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).

    I would like to see this too.

    Game scale asaide and all, Orr was huge, an entire nation, there should still be tons of Risen there that would crawl out under the leadership of some powerful Zhaitan minions. Same thing with the Branded, and Mordrem. And even if Primordus is asleep, the Destroyers could also start rising up to try to find more magical energy to feed to their master to try to reawaken him.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Truce so soon after the events of last episode would jarring. Plus a truce with a Dragon known to manipulate would just be foolish.

    My first thought is that the Truce isn't with Jormag, but with Dominion remnants. A true end to the Civil War and all conflicts with the charr (e.g., human-charr conflict), ushering in a new era of peace for charrkind under a new form of leadership brought on by the vacuum of Bangar's imprisonment and Smodur's death.

    If it is about a truce between Aurene+Commander and Jormag+Ryland, then it will be one forced upon us by Primordus' immediate and unprepared-for rise. If this happens, it will no doubt be directly revealed in the final topic of Bangar's discussions, "Jormag's Enemy".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I may have misremembered which one was flying around the Mists. That does not change the situation. Unless you know of some other way to incapacitate Primordus. Jormag is still the lesser of two evils. Primordus will eventually recover, and Jormag is currently the only way to deal with them.

    There are multiple reasons why Aurene would prefer working with the Frost Legion/Icebrood over Destroyers.

    Assuming that Aurene and the Commander would work with either. It isn't impossible to take them both down, assuming we have a means to keep the world from dying in the process.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Given by the text of the preview, it’s clear that Primordus will be a large component of these new chapters. Seeing how Primordus was a major player in Season 3 and Jormag in IBS, we could see both dragons bite the dust and as the preview states the consequences will be felt across the sea.

    If by the text preview you're referring to the phrases like "to shake Tyria to its core" and "An Earth-Shattering Story Finale", I would not put much emphasis on those. Anet has used similar terminology before, and people proudly and loudly shouted out "PRIMORDUS IS COMING!" but it was just about something else. Like Scarlet's reveal during Clockwork Chaos being preluded with a message talking about fire and destruction, or tremors being felt just being about Mordremoth.

    I do think that Primordus can - and likely will - get involved in the remaining four episodes, but I wouldn't take the phrasing as hints to such, per se.

    They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:
    “Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

    Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.

    Yes. I meant in terms of a physical reach. Not necessarily teleportation via mist portals. There is way more rock than ice on Tyria. And tectonic action, or another supervolcano, poses a larger threat than the icebergs moving again.

    Primordus will probably be portrayed as the "bigger & badder" dragon, with mindless minions that can't be reasoned with.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:
    “Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

    Or, you know, Jormag had admitted that Ryland is building him an army, and now Jormag and his minions can travel anywhere via the Mists they can pop up anywhere, at any time.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    While it is very unlikely, I do hope that the incursions aren't bound to a singular minion type. It would be awesome if they included some in old maps with Risen, Mordrem, and Branded - either as "old timeline events" or as "remnant minions" (e.g., unchained).

    I would like to see this too.

    Game scale asaide and all, Orr was huge, an entire nation, there should still be tons of Risen there that would crawl out under the leadership of some powerful Zhaitan minions. Same thing with the Branded, and Mordrem. And even if Primordus is asleep, the Destroyers could also start rising up to try to find more magical energy to feed to their master to try to reawaken him.

    There shouldn't be many branded left, certainly not powerful ones, so those are the ones I'm least expectant to see. Bound by Blood had a heavy focus on denoting Aurene cleaning up the damage Kralkatorrik caused - namely the Dragonbrand and the Branded - to the point where Bangar could proclaim that one siege devourer as "the very last branded" (even though we know it was false, the fact he could make the claim meant that Aurene and others have wiped out at least 90% of all branded since War Eternal's ending).

    But Risen and Mordrem, on the other hand, were actively established as still being issues. So it'd be nice to see some incursions being such even if most will be destroyers (given the wording subtext).

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:
    “Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

    The subtext can definitely be interpreted there. But as I've said, people have seen subtext that didn't actually exist before many, many, many times.

    I feel at least 85% confident that Primordus will be awake and active by the end of Episode 5 / Champions Chapter 1, but there's still a chance it won't be.

    Makes me wonder if the "unlikely allies" mentioned are tengu, given they dealt with destroyers in the past.

    And if the incursions are primarily/solely destroyers, they really need to ensure having more than four models (or eight, if we're counting the S3 reskins as separate). Hopefully it won't just be "the original 3 destroyers plus the four S3 reskins plus the six Stone Summit psuedo-destoryer enemies)

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    But I feel these threats, and the next one to die if that happened, would be Primordus. He has the reach to do global incursions. Jormag is in the far north.

    Jormag is traveling throughout Tyria, as you established earlier with Aurene's comment.

    Yes. I meant in terms of a physical reach. Not necessarily teleportation via mist portals. There is way more rock than ice on Tyria. And tectonic action, or another supervolcano, poses a larger threat than the icebergs moving again.

    Primordus will probably be portrayed as the "bigger & badder" dragon, with mindless minions that can't be reasoned with.

    Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

    They don't. But I don't see them being able to force the entire planet into an ice age. The flooding is localized to the north and doing more of it benefits the deep sea dragon more than it does Jormag.

    Besides how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head is larger than their entire body.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    They don't. But I don't see them being able to force their entire planet into an ice age, and the flooding is localized to the north.
    And how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head larger than their entire body. There is no comparison

    People shouldn't take the Primordus head size too seriously. They changed Kralkatorrik's size like 5 times from PoF to War Eternal. Primordus' head was made the size it was for whatever "awe" factor they wanted when you saw it. They will change it 5 times before we kill him for whatever scale they need it to be in whatever instances we see him later.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 27, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    They don't. But I don't see them being able to force their entire planet into an ice age, and the flooding is localized to the north.
    And how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head larger than their entire body. There is no comparison

    People shouldn't take the Primordus head size too seriously. They changed Kralkatorrik's size like 5 times from PoF to War Eternal. Primordus' head was made the size it was for whatever "awe" factor they wanted when you saw it. They will change it 5 times before we kill him for whatever scale they need it to be in whatever instances we see him later.

    It's not only a question of their physical sizes but the domains they influence. Tectonic action will always beat ice and crumbling individual mountain ranges.
    Endless clones vs slow persuasion. I wouldn't say Jormag was the weakest dragon before Aurene but Primordus is definitely on another level. Speed, size, etc.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    They use a couple phrases in the text. The shake to the core, Earth Shattering Finale, as you mentioned as well as use words like:
    “Dragon minion incursions have thrown once-peaceful lands into chaos, and there’s no predicting where the next attack will erupt.” as well as “an enemy driven only by destruction” is a little more telling that we will be dealing with Destroyers erupting from these areas.

    Or, you know, Jormag had admitted that Ryland is building him an army, and now Jormag and his minions can travel anywhere via the Mists they can pop up anywhere, at any time.

    Sure, but they are talking about an enemy driven only by destruction. Even Aurene advised that Jormag is just moving through the mists and not destroying anything. This seems to indicated that the enemy driven only by destruction is, you know, Destroyers...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I feel at least 85% confident that Primordus will be awake and active by the end of Episode 5 / Champions Chapter 1, but there's still a chance it won't be.

    Makes me wonder if the "unlikely allies" mentioned are tengu, given they dealt with destroyers in the past.

    And if the incursions are primarily/solely destroyers, they really need to ensure having more than four models (or eight, if we're counting the S3 reskins as separate). Hopefully it won't just be "the original 3 destroyers plus the four S3 reskins plus the six Stone Summit psuedo-destoryer enemies)

    I wondered this too, unless they are leaving the destroyers alone because they plan to have every dragon domain displayed with destroyers eventually. Purple, blue, etc. That’s if Primordus survives the saga.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    Maybe Truce is between Jormag and Primordus. They seemed to have fought in the past, so the formation of a truce is cessation of this past conflict. Jormag has mentioned Ryland's tactics, so they might be doing some fighting between the episodes and slowly turning Primordus forces back to the point of negotiation a truce. The dragons know they are each other's weakness, so it is possible that neither knows they can actually win in a final fight, so they agree to avoid asking that question in the first place. They will no longer fight each other and split control of land/magic/minions, as long as Primordus doesn't attack Jormag's army and instead focuses on terrorizing those that resist Jormag's influence.

    Jormag normally uses carrots to lure followers, but a big stick in the form of another dragon melting your face off could boost recruitment even more. Primordus doesn't seem to have interest in fleshy followers, so it is ok with whoever it displaces being served to Jormag.

    And the use of Champions (plural) is somewhat concerning. The term champion in the recent story has mostly been to referencing a dragon's champion. I am skeptical that they will re-use it in a different way at this point. I forget where the idea of "one champion" comes from, or is it just one of Bangar's misguided propaganda points? Anyways, will the Icebrood have multiple champions? Perhaps Ryland is able to convince Jormag to create a 'warband' of peers for him, because his efforts have shown to Jormag, the effectiveness of having a team of powerful leaders over a single champion.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just to add against there being a truce between us and Jormag is what Aurene says in Visions of the Past.

    "Tyrians who align themselves with Elder Dragons historically bring disaster. Present company excluded."

    To go against that advice, even to face off Vs another Elder Dragon would not only be folly, but pretty poor writing given all the evidence is stacked against it

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

    They don't. But I don't see them being able to force the entire planet into an ice age. The flooding is localized to the north and doing more of it benefits the deep sea dragon more than it does Jormag.

    Besides how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head is larger than their entire body.

    My point was that "Jormag's reach" is not limited to ice. You ignore the existence of Mists portals, but Jormag's ability to enter the Mists and create portals extends Jormag's reach to literally anywhere. Just like Kralkatorrik.

    Just as Kralkatorrik created branded rifts throughout Core Tyria and even branded the Shiverpeaks, Jormag would theoretically be capable of creating localized ice ages anywhere because it can just pop into an area, flash freeze it, then pop out.

    And not sure what flooding the Shvierpeaks has to do with Jormag's reach.

    And like Sajuuk said, I wouldn't take the model size as per-fact, given Kralkatorrik had four model sizes throughout (one for his "storm mode", three for instances and open world, depending on LoD limitations in that map).

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Just to add against there being a truce between us and Jormag is what Aurene says in Visions of the Past.

    "Tyrians who align themselves with Elder Dragons historically bring disaster. Present company excluded."

    To go against that advice, even to face off Vs another Elder Dragon would not only be folly, but pretty poor writing given all the evidence is stacked against it

    Sadly, GW2 writing is not high quality. In large part, I feel, due to the fractured teams working on different releases.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Icebrood don't need ice to exist. We already got icebrood in Metrica Province, for example. Thanks to the Inquest. And Jormag isn't restricted to things like moving icebergs - they shattered the 10,000 foot tall shiverpeaks to below sea level when moving south, after all.

    They don't. But I don't see them being able to force the entire planet into an ice age. The flooding is localized to the north and doing more of it benefits the deep sea dragon more than it does Jormag.

    Besides how many factors of magnitude larger is Primordus than Jormag? Its head is larger than their entire body.

    My point was that "Jormag's reach" is not limited to ice. You ignore the existence of Mists portals, but Jormag's ability to enter the Mists and create portals extends Jormag's reach to literally anywhere. Just like Kralkatorrik.

    Just as Kralkatorrik created branded rifts throughout Core Tyria and even branded the Shiverpeaks, Jormag would theoretically be capable of creating localized ice ages anywhere because it can just pop into an area, flash freeze it, then pop out.

    And not sure what flooding the Shvierpeaks has to do with Jormag's reach.

    And like Sajuuk said, I wouldn't take the model size as per-fact, given Kralkatorrik had four model sizes throughout (one for his "storm mode", three for instances and open world, depending on LoD limitations in that map).

    I'm not ignoring the fact they can teleport. I'm saying so what? Lesser of two evils. They show up and freeze things? Primordus can already blow up volcanos, and what if they also gained the ability to mist travel? You mentioned the last time Jormag did something major they destroyed some peaks and flooded an area. The people just built boats. The Asura have not returned underground. Everything about Jormag's kit is slower and smaller than what Primordus has done.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    Imaging if the Truce only happens at the ending of the upcoming episode because Jormag dies the end of the episode.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EdwinLi.1284 said:
    Imaging if the Truce only happens at the ending of the upcoming episode because Jormag dies the end of the episode.

    Wouldn't be surprised, honestly. Tyria is on the brink of collapse already due to the number of elder dragons that are dead but judging by the plot teaser for this portion of the saga it sounds like something catastrophic will happen to them to "feel it across the seas" or whatever.

    So Jormag or Primordus one are going to die, maybe both. Makes a little iffy when you consider how much emphasis they've put on the magic imbalance. But it's full steam ahead for the expansion so it makes sense they're trying to amp up the dragon activity in preparation.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Wouldn't be surprised, honestly. Tyria is on the brink of collapse already due to the number of elder dragons that are dead but judging by the plot teaser for this portion of the saga it sounds like something catastrophic will happen to them to "feel it across the seas" or whatever.

    So Jormag or Primordus one are going to die, maybe both. Makes a little iffy when you consider how much emphasis they've put on the magic imbalance. But it's full steam ahead for the expansion so it makes sense they're trying to amp up the dragon activity in preparation.

    I could see End of Dragons being primarily concerned with reality steadily splintering into oblivion as we look for a way to stop it. Would be the only thing that makes sense if one or more elder dragons die before the expansion.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Makes me wonder if the "unlikely allies" mentioned are tengu, given they dealt with destroyers in the past.

    I hadn't considered that, but it would be as good a way to tie the tengu into the story as any.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    So Jormag or Primordus one are going to die, maybe both. Makes a little iffy when you consider how much emphasis they've put on the magic imbalance. But it's full steam ahead for the expansion so it makes sense they're trying to amp up the dragon activity in preparation.

    I can totally see Arenanet pulling one prismatic dragon-shaped cover over that topic and have Aurene replace all other Elder Dragons.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    So Jormag or Primordus one are going to die, maybe both. Makes a little iffy when you consider how much emphasis they've put on the magic imbalance. But it's full steam ahead for the expansion so it makes sense they're trying to amp up the dragon activity in preparation.

    I can totally see Arenanet pulling one prismatic dragon-shaped cover over that topic and have Aurene replace all other Elder Dragons.

    They have seem to mastered the art of inconsistency, so it wouldn't really surprise me either just to push something out. But given everything it seems like is coming with End of Dragons I'm still assuming they have other plans.

    Whether it will be the, all six dragons need to be replaced at some point plan, I'm not sure that we'll ever see in the franchise. But I could see some resolution in Cantha leaving Aurene and perhaps a DSD replacement that temporarily hold things together until some scions or born.

    Though it could also be that Jormag and Aurene are left over on the right, and two dragons ascend to fill some slots on the left. Aka - Primordus dies leaving us needing at least one more replacement if DSD doesn't get killed to keep the balance we have now.

    Who knows though, I'm just hoping they don't find some reason to kill off Aurene for good and that's one fear I've had about the direction of the story. I'd imagine they would have to find someway to siphon Balthazar's magic out of the elder dragons at some point as well.

    The more I think about it though you're probably right. I mean, we haven't revisited the pale tree since Heart of Thorns, it seems like we're quickly moving out of the spirit of the wild lore, we didn't deal with the Foefire. The story has really been as narrow and focused as possible, and shorter and shorter. I really don't see them being able to resolve things with the current cannon without ignoring some of it completely or shoving in some 1 hour story episode in a living story season to hand wave something away. Not knocking on the writers because I'm sure they're more than capable. More knocking on the fact that resources always seem to be really starved and the game development in general seems to be a bit chaotic these days....

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I mean, we haven't revisited the pale tree since Heart of Thorns,

    Why would we have? The Knight of the Thorn side story update wrapped up the last major plot point left with the Pale Tree, with her still being injured from the attack by Mordremoth's minions, by having us restore Caladbolg, which in turn healed her.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I mean, we haven't revisited the pale tree since Heart of Thorns,

    Why would we have? The Knight of the Thorn side story update wrapped up the last major plot point left with the Pale Tree, with her still being injured from the attack by Mordremoth's minions, by having us restore Caladbolg, which in turn healed her.

    Not fully. And at least for a sylvari Commander is feels wrong to not care anymore.

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  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't realize Knight of the Thorn restored the Pale Tree! I must have forgot that detail. Was actually a big complaint I've had for a while, so I am a little embarrassed to have forgotten that detail.

    That said, I do think it would be interesting to pan the camera back to Sylvari eventually. I would like the see how they're faring as a people post-HoTs. A few minor references to their collective PTSD, but I think there's a compelling story to tell there too.

    I could see it fitting into Champions if we got some unchained Mordrem content in the form of unlikely allies or these new dragon response missions, if only something minor.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2020

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Not fully. And at least for a sylvari Commander is feels wrong to not care anymore.

    And we didn't fully kill all the Risen, or the Mordrem, or the Branded, and we didn't stay to see WHO exactly the new Sunspear/Order of Shadows/Free Awakened coalition decided to be the new leaders of Elona, and a lot of other things. Narratives rarely stick around to see the absolute end. So long as they have sent up that a resolution is being reached, we don't need to. Just like LoTR didn't stick around to see the very last orc killed.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    That's a bit different. The Pale Tree is the Commander's mother/deity if they're a sylvari. That's not some random mob group or a distant country based and unrelated organitazion.

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    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 31, 2020

    @anninke.7469 said:
    That's a bit different. The Pale Tree is the Commander's mother/deity if they're a sylvari. That's not some random mob group or a distant country based and unrelated organitazion.

    Well to add to this for all races, the Pale Tree is the person who set the Commander on his/her path to become who he/she is now.

    If not for the Pale tree, the Commander would not have gone through the events of the Dungeon Story Mode and get Destiny Edge to reconcile from what happened in their past.

    Not to mention the commander aid with the formation of the Pact using his/her past connections to recruit some of the early members of the Pact due the Pale Tree shown the commander's importance to what will eventually happen in Zhaitan Arc.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    I mean, we haven't revisited the pale tree since Heart of Thorns,

    Why would we have? The Knight of the Thorn side story update wrapped up the last major plot point left with the Pale Tree, with her still being injured from the attack by Mordremoth's minions, by having us restore Caladbolg, which in turn healed her.

    There's still quite a lot of loose threads with the sylvari storyline.

    Whether or not they're stuff ANet's going to bother covering is another matter. I mean, even ignoring the source of Pale Tree's purification and Malyck's Tree, there's the fact that the origin and nature of the Dream is still unknown. Even Mordremoth was just hijacking the Dream.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:
    Not fully. And at least for a sylvari Commander is feels wrong to not care anymore.

    And we didn't fully kill all the Risen, or the Mordrem, or the Branded, and we didn't stay to see WHO exactly the new Sunspear/Order of Shadows/Free Awakened coalition decided to be the new leaders of Elona, and a lot of other things. Narratives rarely stick around to see the absolute end. So long as they have sent up that a resolution is being reached, we don't need to. Just like LoTR didn't stick around to see the very last orc killed.

    Technically, we did kill all the branded (well, Aurene did), and the narrative did cover the direction of new Elona's beginnings (though the Commander explicitly said they don't want to get involved). While narratives "rarely stick around" we always get footnotes on aftermaths - like Lord Faren taking over the Beetletun estates, Minister Wi becoming the new Legate Minister, and Valette taking Canach's place from the aftermath of S3's plots. We even got to see post-Zhaitan Orr both in the immediate and eventual. Rox even told us how the mordrem are reacting and we got to meet with a sylvari who was Mordrem Guard. Incidentally, most loose threads fall on the footnote we never got throughout all of HoT: the Dream.

    Not that I really expect ANet to cover the remaining loose threads of HoT, but the Pale Tree being called "a sapling of Mordremoth" does give enough reason to return to her (and the entire cave, including Malyck's Tree) since scions are needed. So I wouldn't toss it out the window because "Knight of the Thorn told us she recovered and we rarely stick around to see the absolute end". We don't need to see the absolute end, but the possibility of an epilogue that ties into the current plot is entirely there. Even if very unlikely.

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    All these squares make a circle.
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  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    The biggest worry I have right now is that the norn, the Spirits and Garm won't have enough screentime with the four remaining chapters of this finale. While I've enjoyed seeing the charr's actions being portrayed as an extended version of the "Fall of Svanir/Nornbear" arc from GW: Eye of the North, the norn do need some spotlight as well beyond what we've seen of Braham's guild and Jhavi.

    Realistically we should be getting some focus on at least Bear, Snow Leopard (to balance the involvement of the other two Great Spirits in the saga although I'd love to see masteries for Bear, Snow Leopard and Wolf now that Raven already has his own mastery line) as well as Owl (given the way the side quest with the shaman ended and how he intends to guide Braham on the spiritual path). We should also be dealing with the prophecy regarding Knut Whitebear and his family that seems to have an ominous tone to it that could mean either death or Jormag tempting these descendants of Asgeir: "...and the muttering voices will call for his blood." There's also the curious tale of a skaald which was written down during a moot celebrating Knut Whitebear's birth, and I can't help but wonder if that poetic tale (about a norn who was meant to follow in Bear's footsteps but chose to embrace Wolf after finding a dead wolf mother and two weakened pups whom he nurtured back to health) is supposed to be a metaphor for a plot about the Whitebear family yet to come or if it's just some vague worldbuilding given that the Spirits often work in mysterious way via such visions.

    We've already seen some shakeups among the sylvari (Pale Tree being injured, certain Firstborn being either killed like Trahearne and Faolain, or transformed like Caithe), among the humans (Jennah barely winning the war against the White Mantle and purging disloyal ministers while planting her own loyalists in key government positions after Caudecus's fall) and among the charr (the dethroning of Bangar and the deaths of Smodur and Gaheron Baelfire). So, it'd make sense to see some shakeups among norn "leadership" eventually as we might witness how Knut, his sons Skarti and Sigfast, and potentially Knut's mate Gaerta Whitebear (if she makes an appearance in this saga as the legendary enchantress the tales mention her to be) react to the horrific reveal of Asgeir's deal with Jormag and how that reveal may taint his Whitebear descendants' bloodline and tarnish their legend. If Jormag has plans in mind for the Whitebears after it successfully swayed Asgeir (and seemingly led to Asgeir's death somehow over time if Elder Ulf's mentions are to be believed), perhaps we'll see the Whitebears' legend and prominence lessen and see new norn leadership figures rising up as they view themselves better than the tarnished Whitebears whose ancestor Asgeir had fallen to the dragon's whispers. We could also see a redemption story for the Whitebears as they own Asgeir's guilt and rise above his weakness to forge an even greater legend than Asgeir himself ever did so they can cleanse the bloodline from Jormag's taint according to Bear's desires.

    We already know from dialogue that Skarti is torn between supporting Knut and Sigfast regarding how to handle the dragon problem, while Sigfast is jealous about the norn Commander getting to fight abroad to grow their legend while he's stuck in Hoelbrak looking after the wounded etc. So, Jormag could easily reach out to Knut's sons and use their fears and desires against them, perhaps in an attempt to create this norn generation's version of the Nornbear (Svanir)--the Nornwolf--to further tarnish Asgeir's bloodline as revenge for how Asgeir had dared to harm the great ice dragon in the past. The Icebrood Saga announcement trailer did show a norn marching besides a charr and kodan champion who were leading the icebrood horde as a trio, so I wonder if that was just a symbolic setup showing the three races affected by Jormag's corruption, or if it foreshadows two other champions rising to become members of Ryland's new "warband" with the trio acting as generals under Jormag. Perhaps Skarti or Sigfast could become that icebrood champion; I'd certainly welcome some juicy brother vs. brother drama regarding the Whitebear sons and how both of them still care for one another but try to win the other over to their respective sides similar to how we saw the interactions between the two norn brothers Grymm and Bronn Svaard after Bronn was turned into a Risen by Zhaitan and tried to win over Grymm to join the dragon's side in the Sea of Sorrows novel.

    I wonder if, before the finale, we finally see development for the all-female norn cult for Jormag after the idea was teased in Dragon Bash dialogue where a female norn said that the Svanir can't keep women out forever and that one day the Svanir will answer to women. Perhaps these female "Svanir" could be called "Daughters of Dragon" or some such as Jormag personally doesn't care who sides with it and even if the icebrood battle against themselves as long as the strongest survive to carry on Jormag's mission. I'd love to see some prominent female "Svanir" rise up even though seeing yet another recurring villain this late in the saga seems unlikely as unfortunate as it is. If the devs didn't go with the "Nornwolf" idea for a corrupted Sigfast or Skarti, however, they could instead use either Gaerta for this female Svanir champion idea as one of Jormag's generals (as much as I'd grieve to see Gaerta the Bane of Lies succumb to Jormag's warped truths) or some new female norn after Jormag failed to sway Jhavi to its side.

    It also remains to be seen how in depth we'll get to charr politics given how Crecia, Efram and Mia (if she's truly intended to become the next Iron Imperator, especially if she's revealed as Smodur's daughter) should realistically be facing some competition for the mantle of imperator.

    Lorewise we know that Iron Tribune Fume Brighteye is bucking to be the next imperator, and I could see her using Smodur's state funeral for her populist propaganda to sway the Iron masses behind her during their time of vengeful mourning while promising to hunt down Smodur's assassin Ryland, especially when we've seen in Drizzlewood how a surprisingly large number of our Iron allies are actually antagonistic towards the Seraph and how Fume vehemently opposes the treaty with humans due to her tragic backstory.

    Likewise, Efram should be contested by several Flame tribunes (and a potential hierophant if a new one has risen since Hierophant Improaster's demise), one of whom might even be Crecia's evil shaman sire. Crecia herself seems to have already claimed the Blood Imperator position seemingly without issue (unless more is revealed about the specifics in the upcoming chapters) despite her Flame heritage and how some Blood Legion charr might view her opposing Bangar as an act of treason even if they'd acknowledge that she did so for a good reason.

    As for Malice and Ash, it's curious that the Commander and Malice had a somewhat tense conversation shortly after Smodur's death; to me the tone was eerily similar to the Commander's conversation with Smodur back in "A Race to Arms" story step in the Bound by Blood prologue, so I wonder if this foreshadows Malice's ambitions just like that earlier conversation with Smodur foreshadowed his ambitions. Now that Malice is the only imperator with legitimate claim left (unless the other future imperators are also revealed to be related to the Khan-Ur assuming that old rule from "The Ecology of the Charr" still applies), we might be seeing some sort of subtle power grab in this vacuum that Bangar's dethroning and Smodur's death have left. If the charr ever truly have discussions about Khan-Ur in the near future, Malice could sneakily try to promote someone else to the position while acting as the "grey eminence" who would be the true power behind this puppet ruler's throne in true Ash fashion. It would also be nice to see Evon (who started out as an Ash Legion agent and might still be bound to Malice) interact with Malice if Malice decides to extend her reach and sees the Black Lion Trading Company as one more step to secure her dominion.

    With luck, we could even see the return of some lovely personal story characters like the fantastic Iron Legion duo Ballista Geargrind and Mangonel Gearstrip, and the ever-sneaky Ash agent Sicaea the Shrouded who wanted to work with us on the field again someday. :)

    It's going to be interesting to see which factions we end up meeting and building a reputation with. Given the statement of "unlikely" allies, I imagine some of these are villain factions we have to make a truce with, hence the title of the chapter being called "Truce" (apart from some potential meddling from Jormag). Given how the announcement trailer showed centaurs whipping human slaves, and what looked like krait sinking into the depths with norn in the aftermath of a naval battle, I wonder just how evil villain factions we might be dealing with if this is what the writers are going for.

    If krait were to make an appearance, for example, how would they justify them seeking our help when the only time they've ever truly "collaborated" with other races was when Scarlet offered them obelisk shards that they wanted so badly that some of the oratuss priests worked for her for a while in the Toxic Alliance? I'd love to see some "good" krait allies, but the writers would have to be careful how to present such given how indoctrinated the krait are to the oratuss' religion since hatching. It would be fascinating to see this debate between future Nightmare Court founder Cadeyrn and Firstborn Niamh about sparing krait youths lead to a revelation that the krait aren't born evil but are raised evil, and thus all krait should be given a chance to atone and seek a less villainous path if they choose to embrace it:

    Cadeyrn tilted the altar aside, and the sound grew louder. Beneath the stone lay a cave, long ago flooded by the advance of the sea. There, in a sea-cavern below the ruins, krait lay in hiding, unperturbed by the icy waters. But these were not warriors. This was a hatchery, filled with krait eggs and terrified young.
    He raised his sword to continue the extermination—
    "Cadeyrn!" Niamh said sharply.
    Cadeyrn paused, looking up at the leader of his Cycle in confusion.
    "Leave them."
    "But...they are krait."
    "They are children."
    "Children." He frowned, for the word had little meaning. "You mean 'they are small.' They are small, but they are krait. They will grow up to be large krait, and then we will kill them. Why not kill them now, when it is easy and they are undefended? It seems the wisest course of action. Otherwise, we risk losing more sylvari lives when these return fully grown."
    "We must take that risk, to give them a chance to change their ways," the firstborn said. "All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed." Soberly, she put away her sword and pushed the altar back. Beneath it, Cadeyrn could hear the snakes scrambling, splashing away into the ocean tide.
    "Again the firstborn quote the Tablet when I ask for logic." He growled beneath his breath. "I do not agree."

    Likewise, it'll be interesting if we learn about the post-Ulgoth and post-Lake Doric centaur politics and if the Modniir still command the Centaur Alliance or if we're seeing growing unrest among their Harathi and Tamini allies who are none too pleased being forced to fight the Modniir's crusade. Maybe Queen Jennah could try to reach out to the centaurs and reveal Caudecus's letters which prove that Caudecus was behind the deaths of Ulgoth's family and was using the centaurs for his own ends; if Jennah paired this information with a proposal to return certain lands to centaurs so they don't feel pressured to fight for their existence anymore, we might see some centaur leaders reconsidering Jennah's terms.

    The queen could use charr, sylvari and Lion's Arch representatives as diplomats given how each of the three races had something to sway the centaurs with: the charr could explain how the Ebonhawke Treaty with their former human enemies has benefited their society, some of the spiritual centaurs might still view the sylvari as kind and wise nature spirits and be willing to hear them out during negotiations, and we know from Kessex Hills dialogue that centaurs and LA have had a rather amicable truce so LA might help sway some centaurs to consider Jennah's proposal. Of course we could see Ryland and the Frost Legion hamper these attempts by instead trying to sway the centaurs to join forces with Jormag instead so the dragon can grant the struggling centaurs enough magical power so they'll finally start succeeding in the Centaur War.

    We might even see people like a more benign Nightmare Court splinter group (possibly led by our old "ally" Duchess Chrysanthea from HoT?) and some Inquest cell seeking our aid. I'd also love to see some White Mantle and Forged remnants depending on how wide the dragon minion attacks are, as unlikely as it seems that those two factions will come into play after they were suggested to be exterminated in Seasons 3 and 4, respectively. I also wouldn't be opposed to working together with evil Flame Legion remnants, even if this evil Flame Legion splinter group was led by Crecia's evil shaman sire; however it happens, we definitely need to see the still evil, non-Dominion Flame Legion who oppose Efram's peace-seeking Flame splinter group. :)

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Technically, we did kill all the branded (well, Aurene did), and the narrative did cover the direction of new Elona's beginnings (though the Commander explicitly said they don't want to get involved). While narratives "rarely stick around" we always get footnotes on aftermaths - like Lord Faren taking over the Beetletun estates, Minister Wi becoming the new Legate Minister, and Valette taking Canach's place from the aftermath of S3's plots. We even got to see post-Zhaitan Orr both in the immediate and eventual. Rox even told us how the mordrem are reacting and we got to meet with a sylvari who was Mordrem Guard. Incidentally, most loose threads fall on the footnote we never got throughout all of HoT: the Dream.

    I'm not sure if the Branded are fully gone yet. The statements about the "last" Branded that Ryland and his warband fought during the rally was just a ritualistic phrase so the charr could feel catharsis in their war against the dragon minions while celebrating Kralkatorrik's death. Given that more Branded devourers erupted from the ground during the battle, it suggests several Branded might still be lurking about.

    We even got this dialogue from Vetia Foerazer which seems to suggest something similar:

    Vetia: So that whole thing about Branded being gone? Not entirely true. There are lots of Brand shards underground, poisoning the soil. We have devices that neutralize them, but every one is broken.
    Player: What kind of device?
    Vetia: We call 'em Stompers—they look like big mechanical hammers. Strange they all broke at the same time, but that's where you come in! Be careful of any Branded energy seeping through the soil. [...]
    Vetia: Yeah, golems. An asura actually pointed out the issue first...something about a thesis? You know how those little guys are. Anyway, he programmed some repair golems to fix the stompers for us. [...]
    Vetia: Welcome back! Thanks again for fixing the Stompers. With the repairs in place, we should be good again for a long while. No more pesky Branded to deal with...for real this time.
    Player: What caused the malfunction in the first place?
    Vetia: Not sure. Could've been some of the rowdier Rally attendees. I've heard stories about sabotage going around.
    Player: Sabotage?
    Vetia: I don't know much about it, really. Who knows? Could be just talk...

    While we were able to fix the problem in Grothmar for now, it seems several Branded would still exist out there and erupt above ground if the stompers ever stopped working again. Also, given the fact how numerous the Branded horde was as we saw throughout Elona and Dragonfall, even Aurene's active interference wouldn't have cleared them all out in just a few months' time. While Aurene, the Crystal Blooms, and other allies certainly would've diminished the Branded numbers greatly in the months following Kralkatorrik's demise, I'd imagine that the Branded continue being a nuisance to the far future just like the diminishing numbers of Risen and Mordrem are as long as there are enough champions for each of these three masterless hordes to continue leading the remnants and spreading the corruption. After all, Aurene's attention would be divided between the physical Tyrian realm and the Mists as she tries to repair the damage in both realms.

    Speaking of Vetia's conversation above, we still haven't learned the identity of the person who sabotaged the stompers and if the purpose of the sabotage was to deliberately lure the Branded to disrupt the ceremony, which in turn would force Aurene to intervene (assuming that the saboteur was aware of Aurene's mission to purify the Brand) and thus agitate the charr with her flyover. Given how Bangar seemed genuinely shocked by Aurene's interference (as opposed to him trying to act innocent during the confrontation with Almorra in his office), it seems that someone unrelated to Bangar was likely behind the sabotage. The question then becomes if it could've been Ryland if he does have engineer background (although his potential saboteur skills would then make us question if his knowledge about Elder Dragons was in fact greater than he led Bangar to believe in Darkrime Delves), if the suggested asura involvement points towards potential Inquest interference with the stompers to further manipulate Bangar into action, or if there's some as of yet unknown party behind it all.

    Not that I really expect ANet to cover the remaining loose threads of HoT, but the Pale Tree being called "a sapling of Mordremoth" does give enough reason to return to her (and the entire cave, including Malyck's Tree) since scions are needed. So I wouldn't toss it out the window because "Knight of the Thorn told us she recovered and we rarely stick around to see the absolute end". We don't need to see the absolute end, but the possibility of an epilogue that ties into the current plot is entirely there. Even if very unlikely.

    It would be nice to meet the Pale Tree again to discuss her keeping information from the Commander and even her Firstborn Trahearne about Mordremoth, and what a conversation between Aurene and the Pale Tree would be like as Pale Tree herself seemed to be aware (whether via Dream or otherwise, as Ogden had somehow learned about our private chat with the Pale Tree and what we had seen in the visions) of Aurene's importance when she sent the Commander after the egg.

    I agree that the only feasible way (to me, anyway) to reintroduce Malyck into the golden path of narrative at this stage would be tying him and his Tree to the hunt for Elder Dragon replacements, especially if the Blighting Trees are in fact scions of Mordremoth and if Mordremoth's Plant and Mind domains can potentially be shared between two Trees so one Tree could take the Plant and the other could take the Mind domain (which would no doubt "evolve" just like Kralkatorrik's "Crystal" turned into Aurene's "Light").

    Granted, the art book was written by an enthusiastic intern who had begun as a fan of GW2, and the book did contain some lore misunderstandings (e.g. regarding the reason for Kralkatorrik's awakening where it was attributed to Aurene's actions when in fact it should've been her mom Glint), so apparently some of the written lore bits slipped past QA during production (same thing with some of the concept art being repeated on different pages) and some of the canonicity of the writing in the art book could thus be put into question depending on what other sources (besides the narrative team and their lore bible) the author may have pooled information from. We'll have to wait and see what ideas the narrative team have in mind for the Blighting Trees, and if the Dream and Nightmare are explored more in depth. :)

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    The biggest worry I have right now is that the norn, the Spirits and Garm won't have enough screentime with the four remaining chapters of this finale. While I've enjoyed seeing the charr's actions being portrayed as an extended version of the "Fall of Svanir/Nornbear" arc from GW: Eye of the North, the norn do need some spotlight as well beyond what we've seen of Braham's guild and Jhavi.

    Realistically we should be getting some focus on at least Bear, Snow Leopard (to balance the involvement of the other two Great Spirits in the saga although I'd love to see masteries for Bear, Snow Leopard and Wolf now that Raven already has his own mastery line) as well as Owl (given the way the side quest with the shaman ended and how he intends to guide Braham on the spiritual path). We should also be dealing with the prophecy regarding Knut Whitebear and his family that seems to have an ominous tone to it that could mean either death or Jormag tempting these descendants of Asgeir: "...and the muttering voices will call for his blood." There's also the curious tale of a skaald which was written down during a moot celebrating Knut Whitebear's birth, and I can't help but wonder if that poetic tale (about a norn who was meant to follow in Bear's footsteps but chose to embrace Wolf after finding a dead wolf mother and two weakened pups whom he nurtured back to health) is supposed to be a metaphor for a plot about the Whitebear family yet to come or if it's just some vague worldbuilding given that the Spirits often work in mysterious way via such visions.

    Do you really think we'll even see anymore lore about the spirits? It feels like the original trailer for the saga may not be as accurate anymore and plans may have shifted after deciding on the expansion. With the introduction of all these new factions and what seems to be heavy Primordus involvement, I have to wonder if we're going to shift from the spirits and focus more on Jormag vs Primordus with a collection of allies similar to what we had in the previous season dealing with Kralk. In the past, I was thinking the spirits might come into play in dealing with Jormag but now it's seeming like we may not even be exploring that much more territory, gaining any new masteries focused on the spirits, or really having much more involvement with them beyond some passing dialogue with Braham about his studies/communication with them. (Without them actually being present.)

    Which is kind of disappointing as I imagined this saga to really dive deep into the Spirits of the Wild, perhaps some ancient Jotun places, and more Kodan/Norn lore exploration. Full steam ahead I guess!

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @Bast.7253 said:
    Do you really think we'll even see anymore lore about the spirits? It feels like the original trailer for the saga may not be as accurate anymore and plans may have shifted after deciding on the expansion. With the introduction of all these new factions and what seems to be heavy Primordus involvement, I have to wonder if we're going to shift from the spirits and focus more on Jormag vs Primordus with a collection of allies similar to what we had in the previous season dealing with Kralk. In the past, I was thinking the spirits might come into play in dealing with Jormag but now it's seeming like we may not even be exploring that much more territory, gaining any new masteries focused on the spirits, or really having much more involvement with them beyond some passing dialogue with Braham about his studies/communication with them. (Without them actually being present.)

    Which is kind of disappointing as I imagined this saga to really dive deep into the Spirits of the Wild, perhaps some ancient Jotun places, and more Kodan/Norn lore exploration. Full steam ahead I guess!

    That is the question indeed. They could feasibly put the four Great Spirits on a bus and simply state that they'll be recovering from being drained by Bangar and Jormag although it'd be sad if we didn't get to hear Snow Leopard and Bear make a proper appearance and speak. I'd be happy if we saw all the Spirits assemble for the clash against Jormag assuming that the announcement trailer's climactic scene of Jormag's icebrood army invading a location defended by an army led by Rytlock, Braham and Jhavi becomes real in the finale unless that final trailer scene is meant to be a twist and it actually shows Jormag bringing their army to our aid in an upcoming battle against Primordus.

    Regardless of how the majority of the Spirits are handled in the finale, I'd expect at least Owl to be addressed after Ep4 Owl quest left us on a curious note with Garon:

    Garon: Commander. I am Garon, shaman of Owl. Braham asked me here due to the unfortunate circumstances with Owl's reawakening. He seeks guidance, but I'm ashamed to say his faith has diminished.
    Player: (if norn) That is a daunting challenge.
    Garon: Our people endured, and though we continue to struggle, to build our legends...what if the corruptions of the Spirits is inevitable? What would that mean for us? For me?
    Player: We do what we've always done. We fight. For our home, our kin, ourselves. [...]
    Garon: I admire your courage. Before I can guide Braham in this spiritual matter, I must touch the Spirit myself. We must go to Drizzlewood Coast...to the place where Owl touches this world.
    Garon: Owl is near; I sense corruption. No wonder Braham hesitated. I must subject myself to Owl's pain. Ready, Commander?
    (A cutscene plays which depicts Garon kneeling in the ritual circle before standing up with a glow surrounding him.)
    Garon: For the first time in many years, I feel my beliefs awakened. I have enough to offer Braham the guidance he needs. Thank you. You've restored a piece of myself I'd thought lost forever. (Source)

    We also got this curious bit when interacting with Owl's shrine back in vanilla:

    What comes next is an assault on the senses. A flurry of feathers, a scream into the maw of oblivion, a creeping coldness. But one sensation towers over them all—hope.

    Given what the three Lost Spirits have said, they are seemingly corrupted forever although this might simply be what Jormag makes them believe in their despair. But if the corruption is permanent, Owl reminding people of hope amidst all the darkness and coldness is most curious. Does that mean that Spirits can be reborn? Is there another way to redeem Owl and the other Lost Spirits that Owl is hinting at? Owl was one of the wisest Spirits, perhaps even eclipsing Raven himself, so if anyone knows something we don't, it'd be her. Perhaps this is all part of Owl's greater scheme, a necessary sacrifice to ensure victory over Jormag in time.

    It ultimately depends on what the writers have in mind for the Spirits and how big a role they'll play in the finale if any. I for one would love to see a darkest hour moment where Jormag and their multiracial and spiritual Frost Legion are about to prevail against Tyrian forces if we come to blows...until all the Spirits join forces and bring in reinforcements from the entire animal kingdom to even the odds in a massive charge. Just imagine Hare bringing in jackalopes to kick icebrood to kingdom come, Wurm bringing in a massive Triple Trouble type of wurm to devour an entire battalion of Frost Legion in one gulp, Griffon enraging the local wildlife (if she has her "son" Windshear's enrage ability) to fight in a berserk state with more damage etc as her griffons swoop down from the sky alongside Raven's murder of ravens etc. The scene could be as glorious as Scrooge McDuck witnessing nature's revenge where the summoned wood animals go destroy his polluting factory in Don Rosa's "War of the Wendigo".

    And yeah, it does seem that the initial plans for the saga have undergone a notable transformation once the third expansion was brought in with a hasty schedule. It's a bit unfortunate as the saga could've easily encompassed 12 or more episodes with the already existing wealth of charr, norn, Spirit, northern races etc. lore not to mention resolving Garm's story by revealing what had happened to his dire wolf pack etc. We'll have to wait and see what subplots get addressed and what are cast aside for the time being. If the story keeps on exploring the spiritual side of Tyria in the future, perhaps we'll return to the northern Spirits' storyline one day if their narrative fits into the "golden path". :)

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Just to add against there being a truce between us and Jormag is what Aurene says in Visions of the Past.

    "Tyrians who align themselves with Elder Dragons historically bring disaster. Present company excluded."

    To go against that advice, even to face off Vs another Elder Dragon would not only be folly, but pretty poor writing given all the evidence is stacked against it

    Truce (as cease of aggression) is not the same as an Alliance. Since this arc started I've said having an alliance with jormag would be folly, but a truce? I can see that happening if there is an even bigger threat than Jormag on the horizon, and right now Anet seems to be pointing to that direction.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Just to add against there being a truce between us and Jormag is what Aurene says in Visions of the Past.

    "Tyrians who align themselves with Elder Dragons historically bring disaster. Present company excluded."

    To go against that advice, even to face off Vs another Elder Dragon would not only be folly, but pretty poor writing given all the evidence is stacked against it

    Truce (as cease of aggression) is not the same as an Alliance. Since this arc started I've said having an alliance with jormag would be folly, but a truce? I can see that happening if there is an even bigger threat than Jormag on the horizon, and right now Anet seems to be pointing to that direction.

    I could see a truce with Jormag to help fight against Primordus, especially since Jormag was hell bent on gathering an army, most likely to combat the destroyers.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    I was on the fence, but after the last two talks with Bangar, I am convinced the threat is real. I hope the threat isn't from outside Tyria. I would rather the All and Elder Dragon Cycle describe the first principals of Tyrian cosmology. Perhaps the truce will cover many groups: Jormag, Sons of Svannir, Frost Legion, Centaur, all 5 main species, Aurene, the Commander. Jormag doesn't have to prove they are good. If Primordius and the DSD want to grow by eating the world's magic then Jormag just needs to demonstrate they don't want to grow. The obvious potential for betrayal makes for great suspense. You could explain Jormag's ability to negotiate on the magic domain of persuasion's effect on their mind. The domain could not act through an insane being. Jormag must be able to think and understand other people. The domains of fire and destruction make other demands on the mind. I hope the domain of water never partners with its soul mate, the domain of equality. That being would insist on dissolving everything.

    Lean far enough into the Eldritch trope and you can deconstruct it and rebuild it.

    weathering's everything

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    I am curious what the timeframe will be once this champion act begins and ends since from currently newly added dialogue with Bangar, months have already past since events of Jormag Rising and no one has seen nor heard from Jormag since then. Only through Bangar has anyone known Jormag's current actions but only actions and not location.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure if the Branded are fully gone yet. The statements about the "last" Branded that Ryland and his warband fought during the rally was just a ritualistic phrase so the charr could feel catharsis in their war against the dragon minions while celebrating Kralkatorrik's death. Given that more Branded devourers erupted from the ground during the battle, it suggests several Branded might still be lurking about.

    We even got this dialogue from Vetia Foerazer which seems to suggest something similar:

    Vetia: So that whole thing about Branded being gone? Not entirely true. There are lots of Brand shards underground, poisoning the soil. We have devices that neutralize them, but every one is broken.
    Player: What kind of device?
    Vetia: We call 'em Stompers—they look like big mechanical hammers. Strange they all broke at the same time, but that's where you come in! Be careful of any Branded energy seeping through the soil. [...]
    Vetia: Yeah, golems. An asura actually pointed out the issue first...something about a thesis? You know how those little guys are. Anyway, he programmed some repair golems to fix the stompers for us. [...]
    Vetia: Welcome back! Thanks again for fixing the Stompers. With the repairs in place, we should be good again for a long while. No more pesky Branded to deal with...for real this time.
    Player: What caused the malfunction in the first place?
    Vetia: Not sure. Could've been some of the rowdier Rally attendees. I've heard stories about sabotage going around.
    Player: Sabotage?
    Vetia: I don't know much about it, really. Who knows? Could be just talk...

    While we were able to fix the problem in Grothmar for now, it seems several Branded would still exist out there and erupt above ground if the stompers ever stopped working again. Also, given the fact how numerous the Branded horde was as we saw throughout Elona and Dragonfall, even Aurene's active interference wouldn't have cleared them all out in just a few months' time. While Aurene, the Crystal Blooms, and other allies certainly would've diminished the Branded numbers greatly in the months following Kralkatorrik's demise, I'd imagine that the Branded continue being a nuisance to the far future just like the diminishing numbers of Risen and Mordrem are as long as there are enough champions for each of these three masterless hordes to continue leading the remnants and spreading the corruption. After all, Aurene's attention would be divided between the physical Tyrian realm and the Mists as she tries to repair the damage in both realms.

    Speaking of Vetia's conversation above, we still haven't learned the identity of the person who sabotaged the stompers and if the purpose of the sabotage was to deliberately lure the Branded to disrupt the ceremony, which in turn would force Aurene to intervene (assuming that the saboteur was aware of Aurene's mission to purify the Brand) and thus agitate the charr with her flyover. Given how Bangar seemed genuinely shocked by Aurene's interference (as opposed to him trying to act innocent during the confrontation with Almorra in his office), it seems that someone unrelated to Bangar was likely behind the sabotage. The question then becomes if it could've been Ryland if he does have engineer background (although his potential saboteur skills would then make us question if his knowledge about Elder Dragons was in fact greater than he led Bangar to believe in Darkrime Delves), if the suggested asura involvement points towards potential Inquest interference with the stompers to further manipulate Bangar into action, or if there's some as of yet unknown party behind it all.

    Maybe it's an unpopular opinion, but after all the Elder Dragons die, I really want to see a full living world season dedicated to cleaning up the mess, dispatching more of all 6 armies. The episodes would have smaller plots, maybe some carry across several episodes, but there's no world ending level threat, this is the aftermath of 6 of those. After this season can be another living world season to set up the next big threat in the expansion to follow, but I would really love to see a season after the dragons to ramp it down and chill for a bit. Exploring is one of my favorite things in this game, and having a season to just do that without the high level pressure would be nice story-wise. We can go back to the jungle and find maylck while killing mordrem, check up on Elona while killing branded and see how their new government works and what awakened are up to, kill icebrood in the north, and keep cleansing Orr. I think it would be really cool to see a conflict between sylvari and humans once Orr is cleansed enough to live in again - the humans want to reclaim their ancestral lands, but the sylvari actually did most of the work bringing life back there, and it feels like a home to them now. They're tired of being crowded by Asura along the tarnished coast and want lands all their own.

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fenom.9457 That's a neat idea. I agree, the game could use an "off season" that focuses on resolving outstanding plot threads. Can't say I'm confident it'd happen though.

    As for the sylvari-human conflict you propose, I could see a faction of humans throwing a stink about sylvari wanting to live on "their" land, but I doubt the sylvari as a people would feel ownership over land in the same way humans might. I suppose they could make a statement about the PTSD some sylvari must have experienced following HoTs though, as if the experience made them more cynical and less philosophical.

    Of course, now we're veering off topic. Gw2 doesn't seem to be too interested in major conflict between the 5 races in general. Icebrood Saga was primed to not just pit the charr against each other, but the charr and the norn as well. They didn't go quite so far, and I daresay the charr civil war resolved in a fairly neat fashion already. I think what is more exciting to me is the prospect we'll be getting "unlikely" allies moving forward into Champions. Part of me wonders if that could include unchained Risen and Mordrem.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    @Fenom.9457 That's a neat idea. I agree, the game could use an "off season" that focuses on resolving outstanding plot threads. Can't say I'm confident it'd happen though.

    As for the sylvari-human conflict you propose, I could see a faction of humans throwing a stink about sylvari wanting to live on "their" land, but I doubt the sylvari as a people would feel ownership over land in the same way humans might. I suppose they could make a statement about the PTSD some sylvari must have experienced following HoTs though, as if the experience made them more cynical and less philosophical.

    Of course, now we're veering off topic. Gw2 doesn't seem to be too interested in major conflict between the 5 races in general. Icebrood Saga was primed to not just pit the charr against each other, but the charr and the norn as well. They didn't go quite so far, and I daresay the charr civil war resolved in a fairly neat fashion already. I think what is more exciting to me is the prospect we'll be getting "unlikely" allies moving forward into Champions. Part of me wonders if that could include unchained Risen and Mordrem.

    Yeah, sadly I agree. We won't see more of these plot threads unless anet can deliver them alongside whatever the current main story is (like they did with unchained risen in LW3 finale). I wonder if they're eligible as allies? The mordrem guard were the only ones actually capable of thinking for themselves, right? If anything I feel dead dragons' minions would get involved in the dragon response missions as enemies, somehow directed to attack by Jormag or whoever's causing these attacks

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There's still quite a lot of loose threads with the sylvari storyline.

    I would debate that. Yes there is Malyck, but I don't see them doing a "how did either tree become purified" stroyline. The trees were planted, and grew, outside of the range of Mordremoth's mental enslavement. They were never corrupted to need purification in the first place.

    Technically, we did kill all the branded (well, Aurene did),

    There is that achievement in Bound by Blood that shows theres still many Branded left underground, and people are building thumpers to draw them out. They just got most of the ones on the surface.

    but the Pale Tree being called "a sapling of Mordremoth" does give enough reason to return to her

    Sure, but thats a different plot then the "the Pale Tree is injured" plotline I was responding too previously.