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100cm breakbar

With the removal of high-cc consumables being used in fractals, please consider reducing the bar for 100cm. I've been in a bunch of groups with cc cons that already had issues not breaking because of greed/stupidity, it's only going to be worse now the cons are gone. A lot of people in my fractal guild feel the same way. We don't want to have to ditch another dps role for a cc only build.

Disagreement =/= "negativity"
Criticism =/= "hate"

Comments

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    party don't need ditch another dps role. Nothing chnages after that pacth. Now it more simply from one side: bs now not prevented to condi FB on cm100, and swap back on others. Now it bs form start to end. If someone bs forget about maces - they need to refresh mind and bring it back if want stay in normal party. So what you need is more better puch bs to make cc. If bs can't - block and kick bs, take other bs.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    party don't need ditch another dps role. Nothing chnages after that pacth. Now it more simply from one side: bs now not prevented to condi FB on cm100, and swap back on others. Now it bs form start to end. If someone bs forget about maces - they need to refresh mind and bring it back if want stay in normal party. So what you need is more better puch bs to make cc. If bs can't - block and kick bs, take other bs.

    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    As I see from yesterday bs on 100cm don't take banners. And yes, it was power.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    As I see from yesterday bs on 100cm don't take banners. And yes, it was power.

    So, like mentioned in the first post, you would indeed be dropping dps for a cc slot.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    if you mean some dropping dps for a cc slo FROM BS ONLY - yes
    but as for me this no tragedy

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    if you mean some dropping dps for a cc slo FROM BS ONLY - yes
    but as for me this no tragedy

    BS = banner slave. Banners are useless in 100cm, as mentioned above. If you're taking a power war that's a power war, not a bs. Considering the amount that the boss moves and the split mechanics, etc, condi is favoured. Condi war has little cc compared to power war, so that's less dps and no banners in favour of more cc.

    So, again, yes you would be needing to drop a dps slot for a cc slot. I won't be explaining this further to you.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    and now we can instead BS for cm100 say CCS for warrior ..

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 28, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    lol hammer instead of scepter. Nice meme. I don't play dps normally, idk why you're assuming I do.

    As @Infusion.7149 pointed out in another thread;

    Any "normal" Champion or Legendary fractal boss = 600 defiance bar
    Bloomhunger (a normal boss) = 1000 defiance bar
    Assault Knights = 800 defiance bar
    Ensolyss & Siax = 2000 defiance bar
    Skorvald the Shattered = 2200 defiance bar
    Artsariiv = 2100 defiance bar
    Arkk = 1800 defiance bar
    Ai, Keeper of the Peak = 3200 defiance bar
    Sorrow = 1500 defiance bar with 10s window (near double the Assault Knights')

    Compare this to say a raid boss designed for 10 people which is 2000 defiance for Vale Guardian / Matthias / Xera and 4000-4500 for the likes of Slothasor, Samarog and Gorseval...

    It's not just "use another class lol". It's way out of proportion compared to other boss CC bars.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb

    no, more bettera and more EASY !!! push one warrior make point on him one than 2 cfb
    and more fun

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • And by that losing a ton of dps since a power-war without banners and with additional cc-Skills on his bar, who gotta camp mace/mace for cc half the fight on an Bossfight which also moves alot will deal around the same dps as your average rev.
    Instead of that waste of a slot in your group people will continue to stack Fb´s and bring sanctuary + maybe even hammer of wisdom on all of them.
    1 Cfb could even solo the Sorrow with Hammer of Wisdom+ Sanctuary and when you got 4 of them (including the Hfb) you basicly just gotta drop 2 Sanctuarys on each add and it will die in time while you can continue to dps the boss.
    Sure, it will cost dps on the cfb´s since you lose signet and sword but dps is still easily good enough to always phase boss in time.
    All the cheesing you can do doesnt change the fact, that the cc-bar is just too big compared to alot of cc-bars in raids and the other cm´s.
    And at the end it wont hurt the good and experienced players because they will easily clear it still with a bit more of coordination (outside of the fact that some might stop playing because the game becomes more and more less interesting for the hardcore players since it looks like anet doesnt have any clue how the highend-player-community works and what they appreciate about the content ) but newer player will struggle and become frustrated by it since less and less experienced players will play in lfg thanks to changes like this.
    Does really anyone in his right mind think that players with 1500kp that want to have a clean run from lfg will start to explain cc-bars to randoms when stuff doesnt work out ? Nope, people will just focus more on playing through guilds/discords and maybe dont do another run if they cant find some people they already know.
    Will just work out on the same level aus the removal of kp worked out to make the content more accessible for new players.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    new players have T1 (1-25)
    need more? welcome to t2
    many people do t4+rec dayli each day many years, and don't have plan do cms. So fractals is "accessible for new players."

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    lol hammer instead of scepter. Nice meme. I don't play dps normally, idk why you're assuming I do.

    As @Infusion.7149 pointed out in another thread;

    Any "normal" Champion or Legendary fractal boss = 600 defiance bar
    Bloomhunger (a normal boss) = 1000 defiance bar
    Assault Knights = 800 defiance bar
    Ensolyss & Siax = 2000 defiance bar
    Skorvald the Shattered = 2200 defiance bar
    Artsariiv = 2100 defiance bar
    Arkk = 1800 defiance bar
    Ai, Keeper of the Peak = 3200 defiance bar
    Sorrow = 1500 defiance bar with 10s window (near double the Assault Knights')

    Compare this to say a raid boss designed for 10 people which is 2000 defiance for Vale Guardian / Matthias / Xera and 4000-4500 for the likes of Slothasor, Samarog and Gorseval...

    It's not just "use another class lol". It's way out of proportion compared to other boss CC bars.

    So? It's very doable so what's the problem with a boss break bar being very big?

    Hell the only thing that has shown is that the devs have been way to lenient in the size of some of the raid breakbars.

  • Sir Alymer.3406Sir Alymer.3406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    party don't need ditch another dps role. Nothing chnages after that pacth. Now it more simply from one side: bs now not prevented to condi FB on cm100, and swap back on others. Now it bs form start to end. If someone bs forget about maces - they need to refresh mind and bring it back if want stay in normal party. So what you need is more better puch bs to make cc. If bs can't - block and kick bs, take other bs.

    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    Power DPS actually outscales Condi DPS if you can phase her before the first move. Just stack damage, CC when Ai first moves to the edge, DPS hard to phase her, then it's fine. This means bringing power DH, Power Soulbeast, Banners, Power Ren, and Power (or heal but it becomes tighter) Firebrand is good enough to blow up the boss.

    @Darkblade.7634 said:
    And by that losing a ton of dps since a power-war without banners and with additional cc-Skills on his bar, who gotta camp mace/mace for cc half the fight on an Bossfight which also moves alot will deal around the same dps as your average rev.

    Wait, what? Camp maces? Warrior has a 5s weapon swap cooldown. They don't have to camp anything.

    Instead of that waste of a slot in your group people will continue to stack Fb´s and bring sanctuary + maybe even hammer of wisdom on all of them.

    It's not a waste of a slot unless the rest of your party can't burst down the boss.

  • Only Even.6193Only Even.6193 Member ✭✭✭

    To be honest most of the times I see 3cFBs or even c core guards in 100CM LFGs..
    So for players that knows that Sanctuary exists, the removal of consumables is at most annoying.
    Sanctuary is the hardest CC in the game since it pulses 150CC per pulsation, for a total of 750, add 2 more pulses if traited and this skill alone does 1050CC,
    you just have to be carefull not to waste your CC's on phase 2 when you'r near 66% and 33%.

    Tho', I don't like the clones compositions that much and of course this patch literally removed the freedom we had by not taking that much CC (or any) on our bars, and focus more on survivability/dps...
    I don't know how they though it was a good idea removing consumables when 3K breakbars exists in 100CM for only 5 players.
    I have no issues when I'm playing with friends, but pugging 100CM now can be a real nightmare.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    As I see from yesterday bs on 100cm don't take banners. And yes, it was power.

    So, like mentioned in the first post, you would indeed be dropping dps for a cc slot.

    It's just swapping one DPS build for another DPS build. Just because warriors bring mace weapons as a swap doesn't mean they are some sort of low DPS build that's somehow built around having CC. Even if you want a condi build, there's stuff like condi renegade that can bring some strong CC for breakbars.

    It's just a shift to play the game as it was designed instead of playing your UI to juggle items in your bag.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    As I see from yesterday bs on 100cm don't take banners. And yes, it was power.

    So, like mentioned in the first post, you would indeed be dropping dps for a cc slot.

    It's just swapping one DPS build for another DPS build. Just because warriors bring mace weapons as a swap doesn't mean they are some sort of low DPS build that's somehow built around having CC. Even if you want a condi build, there's stuff like condi renegade that can bring some strong CC for breakbars.

    It's just a shift to play the game as it was designed instead of playing your UI to juggle items in your bag.

    Yes and this was possible before so why take away options?

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sir Alymer.3406 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @lare.5129 said:
    party don't need ditch another dps role. Nothing chnages after that pacth. Now it more simply from one side: bs now not prevented to condi FB on cm100, and swap back on others. Now it bs form start to end. If someone bs forget about maces - they need to refresh mind and bring it back if want stay in normal party. So what you need is more better puch bs to make cc. If bs can't - block and kick bs, take other bs.

    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    Power DPS actually outscales Condi DPS if you can phase her before the first move. Just stack damage, CC when Ai first moves to the edge, DPS hard to phase her, then it's fine. This means bringing power DH, Power Soulbeast, Banners, Power Ren, and Power (or heal but it becomes tighter) Firebrand is good enough to blow up the boss.

    Yeah but that entirely depends on having dps that can actually burst. That tactic applies to pretty much every boss, and yet you don't see it often because the average dps can't or doesn't want to bother trying.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    BS is useless in 100. There's too much moving around for it to be worth, so unless there's a war build that's condi dps with big cc that'd be worth, sure.

    As I see from yesterday bs on 100cm don't take banners. And yes, it was power.

    So, like mentioned in the first post, you would indeed be dropping dps for a cc slot.

    It's just swapping one DPS build for another DPS build. Just because warriors bring mace weapons as a swap doesn't mean they are some sort of low DPS build that's somehow built around having CC. Even if you want a condi build, there's stuff like condi renegade that can bring some strong CC for breakbars.

    It's just a shift to play the game as it was designed instead of playing your UI to juggle items in your bag.

    Yes and this was possible before so why take away options?

    Options that were pretty much useless otherwise as well. Now there's really no use for those niche cons.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    Cfb has more cc than everything you listed.

    This.

    I really don't get the hate for cfb. If played right it has some of the highest cc a condi class can bring at some of the lowest sacrifice. Sanctuary alone is 1 utility slot for 750 break bar damage (hint hint for every player who immediately goes for Bane Signet instead of reading through the defiance bar wiki).

    If at all, this change has cemented cfb even more for this fractal.

  • Can't stand people still calling warriors like Banner Slave holy f. .. Anyway, in my opinion that was good thing to remove cons. Now people need to think about CCs more than before and classes like reaper are more welcomed.

  • Morokey.8534Morokey.8534 Member ✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    Maybe people will finally change their skills like warrior's and necromancer's power signets which makes like 4%DPS for CCs, or change weapons for a bir lower DPS but more CCs like scepter to hammer for firebrand, or dagger in OH to warhorn for scourge etc.. But to be honest 99% people don't even know what their skills, weapons and traits do, only copy & paste builds and skills from websides..

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morokey.8534 said:
    Maybe people will finally change their skills like warrior's and necromancer's power signets which makes like 4%DPS for CCs, or change weapons for a bir lower DPS but more CCs like scepter to hammer for firebrand, or dagger in OH to warhorn for scourge etc.. But to be honest 99% people don't even know what their skills, weapons and traits do, only copy & paste builds and skills from websides..

    If you read the thread it's been mentioned multiple times that condi fb has significant cc as is.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • DirtyDan.4759DirtyDan.4759 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 29, 2020

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:
    because of greed/stupidity

    There is the issue. The bar is fine.

  • @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    Yeah broskis just stop having fun in the game and play trash kitten garbage classes and specs. 😎😎😎😎😎😎

    minecrafter

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2020

    @lare.5129 said:
    party don't need ditch another dps role. Nothing chnages after that pacth. Now it more simply from one side: bs now not prevented to condi FB on cm100, and swap back on others. Now it bs form start to end. If someone bs forget about maces - they need to refresh mind and bring it back if want stay in normal party. So what you need is more better puch bs to make cc. If bs can't - block and kick bs, take other bs.

    Everyone just need to adjust their build a little, i don't see the point of put all job one someone and you do nothing to deal with it.

    Don't be so selfish ok ?

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    Everyone just need to adjust their build a little, i don't see the point of put all job one someone and you do nothing to deal with it.

    On cms party or raids - this is gold rule "always all job one someone". And dps should do dps. Because dps know - that only numbers describe role.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    Everyone just need to adjust their build a little, i don't see the point of put all job one someone and you do nothing to deal with it.

    On cms party or raids - this is gold rule "always all job one someone". And dps should do dps. Because dps know - that only numbers describe role.

    I do cms and raid too , it's just an excuse from someone that don't want to do "these jobs ", now Anet show their attitude by nerf cc item without reduce bar point.

    Break the rule or struggle

  • Coming from a bs power/condi, we can change our build for cc but don't come asking for massive dps. Took out banners, replaced them with cc skills and still had to use cons. Something is truly bad with still new fractal...

  • Mace/Mace or Mace/shield + Headbutt works pretty well. Every party member should have a CC utility or weapon set for her though

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm upset that this post wasn't about the Breakbar length on the HuD.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    I do cms and raid too , it's just an excuse from someone that don't want to do "these jobs "

    If you read up you can see the disparity between even raid boss cc bars and Ai's bars. Besides that, I've found I'm often the only one in pug groups that even bothers to cc (bad news as hb, often causes a wipe. Funny that, huh?). I don't know what makes you think you know me better than I do, but that's not the case at all.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    I do cms and raid too , it's just an excuse from someone that don't want to do "these jobs "

    If you read up you can see the disparity between even raid boss cc bars and Ai's bars. Besides that, I've found I'm often the only one in pug groups that even bothers to cc (bad news as hb, often causes a wipe. Funny that, huh?). I don't know what makes you think you know me better than I do, but that's not the case at all.

    If you read who they replied to this is more about them pressing 1 person to do the cc even if its impossible for even warrior to do it alone because they dont want to do cc as dps.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Miss Lana.5276 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:
    I do cms and raid too , it's just an excuse from someone that don't want to do "these jobs "

    If you read up you can see the disparity between even raid boss cc bars and Ai's bars. Besides that, I've found I'm often the only one in pug groups that even bothers to cc (bad news as hb, often causes a wipe. Funny that, huh?). I don't know what makes you think you know me better than I do, but that's not the case at all.

    If you read who they replied to this is more about them pressing 1 person to do the cc even if its impossible for even warrior to do it alone because they dont want to do cc as dps.

    thank you XD

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it is more easy:
    warrior should break breakbar.
    can warrrior do it solo ? no
    should others help ? yes
    who is can pushed for not enough cc ? only warrior

    p.s last 10 run I try take power holo with cc skils to cont run. works only in const party.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    imo the cc bar there is completely fine.

  • Zaxares.5419Zaxares.5419 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    you do know that condi fb carries the highest cc of all you mentioned?

    1 word= sanctuary.
    1 healren, 4 condi fb and you're golden.
    on split, 2 fb on each sorrow drop a sanctuary and it's over..

    not only that, but fb craps out aegis and the likes there is really no reason to play anything else then fb or ren

    That's true, but it's only masking the symptoms, not treating the problem. The removal of CC consumables has meant that groups are now wanting Condi FBs to the exclusion of almost all else. All this does is swap one meta for another, which is what ANet were specifically trying to address. You don't want to have a meta that basically goes "Play Guard or GTFO." It's terrible for balance and player choice, and I'm already seeing splits in the CMs/T4 community where you have groups that are doing all CMs, and CMs excluding 100, on top of the existing "people who only do T4s" or lower tiers.

  • @Zaxares.5419 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Maybe stop using condi fb and use condi reaper, condi ele ,condi ranger or better condi classes with more cc the point of the block was to force build changes maybe use hammer instead of scepter

    you do know that condi fb carries the highest cc of all you mentioned?

    1 word= sanctuary.
    1 healren, 4 condi fb and you're golden.
    on split, 2 fb on each sorrow drop a sanctuary and it's over..

    not only that, but fb craps out aegis and the likes there is really no reason to play anything else then fb or ren

    That's true, but it's only masking the symptoms, not treating the problem. The removal of CC consumables has meant that groups are now wanting Condi FBs to the exclusion of almost all else. All this does is swap one meta for another, which is what ANet were specifically trying to address. You don't want to have a meta that basically goes "Play Guard or GTFO." It's terrible for balance and player choice, and I'm already seeing splits in the CMs/T4 community where you have groups that are doing all CMs, and CMs excluding 100, on top of the existing "people who only do T4s" or lower tiers.

    I'm in a guild that specifically recruits people who are CM ready and capable, and even within it there are people who look for groups for "99+98CM + t4s" because the average pug doesn't seem to know what a cc even is.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • Noir.8561Noir.8561 Member ✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    100 Fractal is the top end instance , in order to give us a challenge .
    People love challenge , and that motivation will helps people to form their own group , with friend, and bond with them .
    If you don't like it go in Tier 3

    Same applies to Raids

    Regreso en un momento

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noir.8561 said:
    100 Fractal is the top end instance , in order to give us a challenge .
    People love challenge , and that motivation will helps people to form their own group , with friend, and bond with them .

    how many teams from 5 thief's we see on cm100 ? People love challenge? You sure?

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • @Noir.8561 said:
    100 Fractal is the top end instance , in order to give us a challenge .
    People love challenge , and that motivation will helps people to form their own group , with friend, and bond with them .
    If you don't like it go in Tier 3

    Same applies to Raids

    You think I don't know that 100cm is a CHALLENGE considering it's got a CHALLENGE mote? Having issue with ONE part of ONE fractal =/= having issue with EVERY part of EVERY fractal. No need to be so condescending and say "lol well just do t3".

    As for raids mate I've already got every skin under the sun related to them. You're assuming things about me that are clearly incorrect and making an kitten of yourself in the process. Don't be a kitten and actually add to the conversation next time mate.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"