What the skritt counters Renegod

See title.

Guardians used to but Anet decided to kill the entire class and every viable build instead

We are doomed until anet does something

Depends on the Renegade build.

Kalla/Shiro - Very limited condi cleanse. It has Renewing Wave and Cleansing sigil for a total of 3 cleanses. Riposting Shadows can remove movement condis but this is costly. It can reduce the damage it takes from condis with Breakrazer's bastion, but this will not help against non damaging condis like Weakness, Chill, or Immob.

Power herald can bully them with gapclosers and burst damage. Renegade does not have the mobility to escape, and shortbow does not handle foes in your face very well due to Seven shot's tendency to cancel if target moves behind you.

Counter: Condi thief, Herald

Kalla/Jallis - Very low mobility. If running Shortbow/Staff then the only dash on the build is Staff 5, which has a lengthy windup. It's counter is being focused due to it's inability to run away. It's less weak to condi pressure than Shiro ren, but it has a harder time dealing with Immobilize since it does not have Ripsosting Shadows (Shiro dodge).

Counters: Condi Ranger/Immob Druid,Condi thief, Herald, Call target

Shiro/Jallis - More roam-centric build. It's still weak to condi pressure, but has tools to play around it.

Counters: Doesn't have as many hard counters, but can still struggle vs Herald, condi thieves, condi ranger.

All renegades also die to reaper if they're average/bad. Constant chills ruin their ability to kite. Condi necro supplies cover condis in teamfights making them easier to pin down.

Kalla jalis dies to burn DH

Kalla Jalis is easily countered as long as you have enough 'skill' not to facetank and not to stand in the circle. Kala Jalis rene is also easily neutered with soft CC.

@Kuma.1503 said:Depends on the Renegade build.

Kalla/Shiro - Very limited condi cleanse. It has Renewing Wave and Cleansing sigil for a total of 3 cleanses. Riposting Shadows can remove movement condis but this is costly. It can reduce the damage it takes from condis with Breakrazer's bastion, but this will not help against non damaging condis like Weakness, Chill, or Immob.

Power herald can bully them with gapclosers and burst damage. Renegade does not have the mobility to escape, and shortbow does not handle foes in your face very well due to Seven shot's tendency to cancel if target moves behind you.

Counter: Condi thief, Herald

Kalla/Jallis - Very low mobility. If running Shortbow/Staff then the only dash on the build is Staff 5, which has a lengthy windup. It's counter is being focused due to it's inability to run away. It's less weak to condi pressure than Shiro ren, but it has a harder time dealing with Immobilize since it does not have Ripsosting Shadows (Shiro dodge).

Counters: Condi Ranger/Immob Druid,Condi thief, Herald, Call target

Shiro/Jallis - More roam-centric build. It's still weak to condi pressure, but has tools to play around it.

Counters: Doesn't have as many hard counters, but can still struggle vs Herald, condi thieves, condi ranger.

All renegades also die to reaper if they're average/bad. Constant chills ruin their ability to kite. Condi necro supplies cover condis in teamfights making them easier to pin down.TL;DR overpowered build is countered by condi builds.

Everyone: OmG nErF cOnDi!!!!!

Sword dagger thief farms them fairly well

Not saying Renegade is OP. While strong and obnoxious with the AOEs, it might need tweaks but I don#t feel like it's too bad.

However, some arguments in here are weird. "Renegade is OP? Just take this build, which counters it!" - takes build and gets destroyed in any competitive setting by Renegades teammates - :open_mouth:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Not saying Renegade is OP. While strong and obnoxious with the AOEs, it might need tweaks but I don#t feel like it's too bad.

However, some arguments in here are weird. "Renegade is OP? Just take this build, which counters it!" - takes build and gets destroyed in any competitive setting by Renegades teammates - :open_mouth:

You've got quite a few viable options to deal with them beyond what I listed. It's all about recognizing the main overarching weaknesses of the spec.

1. Poor cleanse unless running ventari
2. Shortbow is a glassy weapon that crumbles to melee pressure
3. High energy costs, giving you openings to punish them.
4. Vulnerability to soft CC such as Cripple, Chill, and Immobilize

It just so happens that some builds play off of these weaknesses better than others, and these are it's hardest counters. Both Pherald and Cthief are ranked viable builds that can make mincemeat out of Renegades.

Using the example of Cthief, Even if the Renegade manages to deal with them, you will do one or more of the following:

1. Force them into staff, eliminating most of their pressure for 9 seconds
2. Force them to consume energy while trying to survive, especially if you made them blow a stunbreak with bassi venom.
3. Force them to commit to a 1 second castime cleanse in order to survive. Easily interrupted in a +1 scenario.

You can easily tweak your build with this in mind to play off of these weaknesses. Burn Guard can bully them due to their limited cleanses, and burn guard's easy access to immob. Necro can land constant chills and cripples limiting their ability to kite, ect.

Any Kalla build is countered by AoE and CC. Unlike other AoE spam builds Kalla has built in counterplay in that the AoEs can be removed or interrupted. If you CC any of the spirits they go through a recovery animation before restarting. So for instance, you can actually fight Kalla with shortbow on thief and using poison daze ( Skill 4 ).

Any Shiro build is countered by killing them while in Shiro. Shiros one defensive move costs 40e, which prevents them from doing mostly anything else.

I wont lie i read half of these and hard questioned them, the only classes ive seen able to kill or pressure a renegade (kalla/jalis as the others are quite simple to figure out how to counter) are guardian (mainly dragonhunter as shown by Forklift operators), holosmith (im unsure if it kills solo) but even if not a thief also helps a lot. These are the only solutions i can think of other than a better renegade.

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any Kalla build is countered by AoE and CC.

You want to CC a kalla/jalis renegade with spirits up? That would never happen vs a renegade that knows how to actually play the build. It can provide permanent stacks of stab for as long as road is up (granted it has a 3 second gap between casting road again) but you cant CC unless a thief/necro/mesmer boonrips it and even then its stacked right back on.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Any Kalla build is countered by AoE and CC.

Have you played the class yourself in ranked above silver for a reasonable amount of time to state this?

Have you played the class yourself in ranked above silver for a reasonable amount of time to state this?

Ive played it a few times myself otherwise ive played against azzurs more than what id like to admit, a thief/holo can kill and the dh forces it offpoint (the one used in the tournament yesterday), and to clarify im consistently in plat3/legendary and thats the only "counters" ive seen do anything vs renegade

The chances of CCing it offpoint are absurdly low, and the chances of killing it alone (without burn dh with sword) is low, you need at minimum 2 people to kill it from what ive seen.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:Any Kalla build is countered by AoE and CC.

Jallis/Kalla is literally designed to be a sturdy build that is slow, but high in stability. It's a build with next to zero mobility. It only has Surge of the Mists (heavily nerfed with wind up) as a "dash" but honestly you lose more ground by casting this than you gain. If you (somehow) struggle to pin down this build, which has less mobility than a core necro running zero port utilities, then you can hamstring them with soft CC's like Cripple, Chill, and Immob. Stab does nothing against these conditions.

I should also point out that Spirits and Road are on completely different legend swaps. You won't often see both out at once, and if you do, that Renegade is going to be starved of resources for the next 9 seconds with ~45 energy and no legend swap available.

Kalla/Jallis isn't some unstoppable godlike build. It's a slow juggernaut that should be focused in the same way you'd focus a Necro.

Jallis/Kalla is literally designed to be a sturdy build that is slow, but high in stability. It's a build with next to zero mobility. It only has Surge of the Mists (heavily nerfed with wind up) as a "dash" but honestly you lose more ground by casting this than you gain. If you (somehow) struggle to pin down this build, which has less mobility than a core necro running zero port utilities, then you can hamstring them with soft CC's like Cripple, Chill, and Immob. Stab does nothing against these conditions.

Thats the thing, you dont need mobility with this build, its designed as a nodeholder and possible 2v2er and with the current meta being 3 nodes, both teams must act that way for good value and so renegade is getting value. If you watch any mAT or the DL tournament yesterday you would see Azzurs(quite possibly the best renegade right now) getting huge value on sides as nothing can kill it 1v1 due to its disengage. There is not much chance for immob to get value because it has condi cleanse on 3 different sources and even then no one would use staff 5 in a 1v1 as it has low value.

I should also point out that Spirits and Road are on completely different legend swaps. You won't often see both out at once, and if you do, that Renegade is going to be starved of resources for the next 9 seconds with ~45 energy and no legend swap available.

The idea you put out road THEN spirits is the core mechanic of the build and if people fail to use it that way then they're just not being optimal around it, everything is say is based off the gameplay of good renegades and those who know how to correctly play it well. They arent starved for resources because ranged attacks do nothing (due to retribution heal) and you cant melee cause of the daze/damage spam with life steal, the spirits also are a good way to kite and staff 3/5 are the disengages or survivability so staff should rarely be used until a 1v2 situation arises.

Kalla/Jallis isn't some unstoppable godlike build. It's a slow juggernaut that should be focused in the same way you'd focus a Necro.

Yeah of course its not unstoppable, but its quite literally gatekeeping most other sidenoders because of its utility. Its near unstoppable due to the fact it requires 2 people to kill it and even then its quite difficult, the difference in survivability and kite potential of renegade and necro is quite drastic, renegade can solo peel for itself whereas necro had very little ability to do so.

@"Kachros.4751" said:

Jallis/Kalla is literally designed to be a sturdy build that is slow, but high in stability. It's a build with next to zero mobility. It only has Surge of the Mists (heavily nerfed with wind up) as a "dash" but honestly you lose more ground by casting this than you gain. If you (somehow) struggle to pin down this build, which has less mobility than a core necro running zero port utilities, then you can hamstring them with soft CC's like Cripple, Chill, and Immob. Stab does nothing against these conditions.

Thats the thing, you dont need mobility with this build, its designed as a nodeholder and possible 2v2er and with the current meta being 3 nodes, both teams must act that way for good value and so renegade is getting value. If you watch any mAT or the DL tournament yesterday you would see Azzurs(quite possibly the best renegade right now) getting huge value on sides as nothing can kill it 1v1 due to its disengage. There is not much chance for immob to get value because it has condi cleanse on 3 different sources and even then no one would use staff 5 in a 1v1 as it has low value.

I should also point out that Spirits and Road are on completely different legend swaps. You won't often see both out at once, and if you do, that Renegade is going to be starved of resources for the next 9 seconds with ~45 energy and no legend swap available.

The idea you put out road THEN spirits is the core mechanic of the build and if people fail to use it that way then they're just not being optimal around it, everything is say is based off the gameplay of good renegades and those who know how to correctly play it well. They arent starved for resources because ranged attacks do nothing (due to retribution heal) and you cant melee cause of the daze/damage spam with life steal, the spirits also are a good way to kite and staff 3/5 are the disengages or survivability so staff should rarely be used until a 1v2 situation arises.

Kalla/Jallis isn't some unstoppable godlike build. It's a slow juggernaut that should be focused in the same way you'd focus a Necro.

Yeah of course its not unstoppable, but its quite literally gatekeeping most other sidenoders because of its utility. Its near unstoppable due to the fact it requires 2 people to kill it and even then its quite difficult, the difference in survivability and kite potential of renegade and necro is quite drastic, renegade can solo peel for itself whereas necro had very little ability to do so.

I can see how this build could still be overperforming in spite of it's afformentioned weaknesses. Perhaps it's not a case of the build having no weak points, but rather, even if a build can abuse it's weak points it simply not effective enough to kill it.

Sidenoders have been getting shot down one after another, and if what you're saying is true then it's likely that Renegade has risen to fill the power gap.

Mind you, the way I'd fix this isn't to nerf Renegade, it would be to recognize that there exists a build with very clear and obvious weaknesses that cannot be killed because other options are too weak to capitalize. Of course, the mere mention of buffs (or reworks which would achieve an effect similar to a buff) would get people screaming "powercreep" so the easy answer would be to nerf them.

Mind you that wont solve the underlying problem. It'll just push the problem back until a new build with fewer obvious flaws takes its place, but I've beaten this point to death and that's a discussion for another thread.

Considering Anet brutalized Sword Weaver, Condi Mirage, heavily nerfed Warrior, removed Knights amulet and simultaneously nerfed Ranger (3 large nerfs aimed at Druid), deleted boonbeast, Swung a rather large nerf bat at Scrapper due to decap build, Killed Staff thief, and deleted symbolbrand...

I can see how this build could still be overperforming in spite of it's afformentioned weaknesses. Perhaps it's not a case of the build having no weak points, but rather, even if a build can abuse it's weak points it simply not effective enough to kill it.

Sidenoders have been getting shot down one after another, and if what you're saying is true then it's likely that Renegade has risen to fill the power gap.

Mind you, the way I'd fix this isn't to nerf Renegade, it would be to recognize that there exists a build with very clear and obvious weaknesses that cannot be killed because other options are too weak to capitalize. Of course, the mere mention of buffs (or reworks which would achieve an effect similar to a buff) would get people screaming "powercreep" so the easy answer would be to nerf them.

Mind you that wont solve the underlying problem. It'll just push the problem back until a new build with fewer obvious flaws takes its place, but I've beaten this point to death and that's a discussion for another thread.

The sidenoders of past were nerfed due to the fact most required low mechanical skill to gain value (warrior required skill however was nerfed too hard), the only weaknesses a renegade has is corrupts (from scourge but its barely viable), dh and a +2 from holo/thief... the idea of buffing another build and leaving rene how it is wont help anything. The fact bunkers and decap builds are in the game is unhealthy for it so nerfing both decap and bunker builds, we NEED to nerf bunker classes and defenses in general if we want the game to be more enjoyable, healthy and have more variety. In summary, most people want the game to be fun and enjoyable, people will mechanical skill will be rewarded, people who lack it will be punished. That concept doesnt exist that much in the current meta as most meta classes are just spamming skills until someone dies.

@snoow.1694 said:Guardians used to but Anet decided to kill the entire class and every viable build instead

Burn dh is viable

@wevh.2903 said:

@snoow.1694 said:Guardians used to but Anet decided to kill the entire class and every viable build instead

It‘s not it drops in seconds in every +1 without any chance to kite

It‘s not it drops in seconds in every +1 without any chance to kite

Did you see the new guardian build? If anyone with more than 10 IQ decides to play it then it gains a lot of value, and it has loads of kite potential

@"Kachros.4751" said:

Considering Anet brutalized Sword Weaver, Condi Mirage, heavily nerfed Warrior, removed Knights amulet and simultaneously nerfed Ranger (3 large nerfs aimed at Druid), deleted boonbeast, Swung a rather large nerf bat at Scrapper due to decap build, Killed Staff thief, and deleted symbolbrand...

I can see how this build could still be overperforming in spite of it's afformentioned weaknesses. Perhaps it's not a case of the build having no weak points, but rather, even if a build

can

abuse it's weak points it simply not effective enough to kill it.

Sidenoders have been getting shot down one after another, and if what you're saying is true then it's likely that Renegade has risen to fill the power gap.

Mind you, the way I'd fix this isn't to nerf Renegade, it would be to recognize that there exists a build with

very clear and obvious weaknesses

that cannot be killed because other options are too weak to capitalize. Of course, the mere mention of buffs (or reworks which would achieve an effect similar to a buff) would get people screaming "powercreep" so the easy answer would be to nerf them.

Mind you that wont solve the underlying problem. It'll just push the problem back until a new build with fewer obvious flaws takes its place, but I've beaten this point to death and that's a discussion for another thread.

Whose to say that bunkers require little mechanical skill? If you're playing Kalla/Jallis Ren then you need to be mindful of your positioning due to quirks with shortbow and your inherently low mobility, manage your resources (Energy and legend swaps), play around opposing conditions because they will wreck you, you must be mindful that your cleanses are not interrupted. Both are 1 second casts and a skilled player will interupt it if you cast it thoughtlessly. Good Renegades will also time their staff evades well and make use of weakness to mitigate bursts.

All of these micro-decisions and more come into play in determining whether a bunker Renegade is good or not. How well you can execute these things is what seperates your average bunker who gets 1 shot in the +1 from the one who kites around node buying time and gaining value by existing. It's an impressive skill, even if not particularly flashy.

@snoow.1694 said:

It‘s not it drops in seconds in every +1 without any chance to kite

Burn DH has a lot of sustain and releases a impressive amount of damage. Lacks cc, tho.