Why use Balthazar but not Menzies?

I really think Balthazar doesn't fit the antagonist role well at all. He didn't jump out to fight Abaddon in Nightfall, why did he do that against the dragons? Even as a villain, disguise as a Mursaat to trick people doesn't fit his personality at all.

Menzies, on the other hand would make a lot of sense, he was a cunning villain and the ally of Abaddon during Nightfall.

We don't really know what happened with the war that was ongoing in the Fissure of Woe during the time of GW1 (raid pls?). It might have changed Balthazar that much so that he became an edgy teenager evil. There's also the ongoing fan theories that Lyssa has something to do with everything that happened.

Either way, I doubt Menzies could have gotten out of the war alive, even if you consider GW1's portrayal of Balthazar. Of course, if Balthazar wasn't around at all it would also be a very good guess that Menzies killed him instead. Unless Menzies was pretty damn good at hiding, his head is probably really on that torch, for right now I see no way the Eternal War would end with both sides remaining alive. I just hope they explain how Balthazar became what we see in GW2, because it's very hard to justify most of the stuff he has done (like disguising as a Mursaat).

@maxwelgm.4315 said:We don't really know what happened with the war that was ongoing in the Fissure of Woe during the time of GW1 (raid pls?). It might have changed Balthazar that much so that he became an edgy teenager evil. There's also the ongoing fan theories that Lyssa has something to do with everything that happened.

Either way, I doubt Menzies could have gotten out of the war alive, even if you consider GW1's portrayal of Balthazar. Of course, if Balthazar wasn't around at all it would also be a very good guess that Menzies killed him instead. Unless Menzies was pretty kitten good at hiding, his head is probably really on that torch, for right now I see no way the Eternal War would end with both sides remaining alive. I just hope they explain how Balthazar became what we see in GW2, because it's very hard to justify most of the stuff he has done (like disguising as a Mursaat).

He is a cunning villain and his minions are the shadow army/demons, I don't think it would be easy to catch him at all.

Ultimately, bad choice making.

There's no presented reason to not have used Menzies. Especially since the whole Lazarus guise was 100% Menzies' M.O.

They changed Balthazar from an honorable straight-forward deception-hating warrior of the just, into a swallower of cowardly souls, deception-filled, honorless and demoralized-in-his-former-beliefs self without any true and proper motivation. Being denied a battle (especially when he had two good battles and one he openly ignored) and subsequently imprisoned because of a temper tantrum (the only thing truly fitting about Kormir's reveal of Balthazar) shouldn't have had such a profound change in Balthazar.

And the sad thing is that we're going at least two months - six, if we go back to Flashpoint - without that proper explanation still. And that's assuming the rumors of FoW being the first raid after PoF is accurate and that said first raid is coming in November.

We know that the Eternal Battle is now over, given the Herald of Balthazar's letters in Night of Fires, so Menzies is likely dead or imprisoned. But that was lore made with PoF so that's not a "reason they couldn't use Menzies".

A nice way to close this up, though, may be to bring Menzies back - let's say he was just imprisoned and raid 5 will accidentally free him Joko style. He goes after the Pact Commander because we took "his rightful award" of slaying his half-brother. A twisted sense of revenge. Could prove interesting, if they keep Menzies to his GW1 depiction as a deceptive individual who excels as setting allies against each other - forcing the Pact Commander to fight former allies.

I love how they ended PoF story! With that "Why the heck you didn't curse Lyssa, bro??"! It was a sign from the writers: "hold on guys, we don't end Gods' thread yet ;)".

I wrote it many times that this mirror topic is really weird and Kormir's behaviour was really weird, like she didn't know what happens outside her realm.

She said that Lyssa's mirror is only a thing that can hide the truth from all the gods... even the goddess of truth... So why didn't they just nerf this power?

The whole weird writing when it came to the Gods was weird, like it was totally supposed to be.., to make us feel that something is not right with this leaving...

Is it the same situation as in Season 1 when Scarlet said that there will be the next "master". Was Balthazar making the way to the new master? The master called Lyssa?

I hope we'll find his true motives, why he turned into a bad guy. Also we didn't see other gods when Kormir was showing us what Balthazar was saying. How were they reacting? Why did they leave when Balthazar was freed? Why didn't they react when Balthazar was getting the mirror from Lyssa? Because when he was freed, the gods were most likely still there, why they left the Mists for "a better place" if a chance to find it is small imo, why after thousands of years just said: we are leaving, why they were so scared because of Balthazar? They could have weakened him once more... It's all so weird!

@Arden.7480 said:I love how they ended PoF story! With that "Why the heck you didn't curse Lyssa, bro??"! It was a sign from the writers: "hold on guys, we don't end Gods' thread yet ;)".

I wrote it many times that this mirror topic is really weird and Kormir's behaviour was really weird, like she didn't know what happens outside her realm.

She said that Lyssa's mirror is only a thing that can hide the truth from all the gods... even the goddess of truth... So why didn't they just nerf this power?

The whole weird writing when it came to the Gods was weird, like it was totally supposed to be.., to make us feel that something is not right with this leaving...

Is it the same situation as in Season 1 when Scarlet said that there will be the next "master". Was Balthazar making the way to the new master? The master called Lyssa?

I hope we'll find his true motives, why he turned into a bad guy. Also we didn't see other gods when Kormir was showing us what Balthazar was saying. How were they reacting? Why did they leave when Balthazar was freed? Why didn't they react when Balthazar was getting the mirror from Lyssa? Because when he was freed, the gods were most likely still there, why they left the Mists for "a better place" if a chance to find it is small imo, why after thousands of years just said: we are leaving, why they were so scared because of Balthazar? They could have weakened him once more... It's all so weird!

I got the impression the Gods had departed long before Balth was free and were far enough away to either not be able or not care to return if they even knew of his return at all. They weren't scared of Balth either, just the fallout (things got admittedly a wishy washy through that explanation though)The whole thing had the feel of ending the Gods' story in Tyria and with us trying to replace the Dragons with a more benign/benevolent solution - the overarching trend seems to be an arc that puts the fate of the World into the hands of the inhabitants, without Gods or Dragons interfering.

I guess we shall see, but I don't think we will see the Gods back again (unless this all turns out to be a "test" by the Gods in which case I'll bang my head on the table in annoyance..)

To the OP, I suspect Menzies was not used because he is largely unknown to the wider playerbase who didn't play GW1 and is familiar with that raid and surrounding lore. That then requires a certain amount of build up in his lore - virtually none of which exists in GW2 and would perhaps have needed seeding earlier in the game to help his transition into the story or a lot more time taken up with introduction via LS3.Lazarus, whilst having the same issue in part, has the excuse that Mursaat were not only much better established in GW1 but also had enough snippets of lore seeded in the core game and linked well with the White Mantle who again were well established. Even then, people unfamiliar with the franchise were questioning who this Mursaat was, so imagine the raised eyebrows when suddenly Menzies is thrust into the limelight

Balthazar, whilst I agree with the sentiments in this thread and needs further explaining, at least was a recognisable and well established figure for them to use. And whether that was the correct reason for them to do so or not, that will be why they chose him over Menzies.

Maybe the reason of using Balthazar was for the fashion item skins?

they could have put in almost anything for Menzies in terms of fashion, Menzies had no look yet, the only 'looks' we had is the shosow army, wich where just reskins of white mantle.They could have gone for the most badass look they came up with and call it Menzies:D

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Maybe the reason of using Balthazar was for the fashion item skins?

An outfit and weapon set already existed, so i doubt that had any impact.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Ultimately, bad choice making.

There's no presented reason to not have used Menzies. Especially since the whole Lazarus guise was 100% Menzies' M.O.

Really? Menzies never disguised himself as anybody to our knowledge. We know very little about him.

I think when people talk about how much Balthazar has changed, they tend to forget that we never actually met him-- ever-- in GW1. We're going off literal mythology, which was always presented as such.

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Ultimately, bad choice making.

There's no presented reason to not have used Menzies. Especially since the whole Lazarus guise was 100% Menzies' M.O.

His darknesses are all mesmers, so it would make more sense for him to do it than Balthazar.

Balthazar was a white male in high standing, according to the recent writing trend he just had to be made evil and killed off.

@NotASmurf.1725 said:Balthazar was a white male in high standing, according to the recent writing trend he just had to be made evil and killed off.

You plebian humans and your obsession of skin color.Imagine if Charr master race was petty like you lot!

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:I really think Balthazar doesn't fit the antagonist role well at all. He didn't jump out to fight Abaddon in Nightfall, why did he do that against the dragons? Even as a villain, disguise as a Mursaat to trick people doesn't fit his personality at all.

Menzies, on the other hand would make a lot of sense, he was a cunning villain and the ally of Abaddon during Nightfall.

I agree that Balthazar was a bad choice, but Menzies isn't a god. In a world where we barely know who the gods are, making some guy named Menzies the big bad would leave people who didn't play GW1 (probably the vast majority of players) scratching their heads about why they should care about it.

@Djinn.9245 said:I agree that Balthazar was a bad choice, but Menzies isn't a god. In a world where we barely know who the gods are, making some guy named Menzies the big bad would leave people who didn't play GW1 (probably the vast majority of players) scratching their heads about why they should care about it.

I'd disagree, primarily because it would be a great way of introducing lore surrounding the gods and the fact that they, indeed, have conflict with other related beings that aren't the elder dragons. GW1 players they get the joy of knowing who this guy is, and GW2 players suddenly have an introduction to an aspect of the lore that's never been presented before. It would have needed to be done properly, having humans in the world start talk about menzies, how he's the half brother of Balthazar, bringing the "what happened to the gods" stuff at the forefront at the story and also subtly introduce dhuum as well would bring new players into the loop while still keeping it interesting for older players who are more acquainted with the lore. If they had just dropped "oh everyone knows about menzies", it would be terrible writing, but if they made the right decisions with the writing by making characters in the world confused about him and the priests of balthazar telling humans not to worry or lose faith, they could have introduced menzies in a spectacular way that would have accommodated everyone. Just because old lore hasn't been introduced in GW2 yet doesn't mean it can't be introduced in a way that would include all players, old and new.

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Ultimately, bad choice making.

There's no presented reason to not have used Menzies. Especially since the whole Lazarus guise was 100% Menzies' M.O.

Menzies was all about deception and trickery, turning folks traitor, etc. etc. That's the reason why the Fissure of Woe elite mission existed in GW1 - Menzies could only gain the upper hand via his deceptive tactics. Which continued, to a lesser degree due to lesser interaction, in Nightfall side quests.

And it's not literal mythology when it's a documentation of actual historical events. Or dealing with Balthazar's servants who had personally met Balthazar.

@Djinn.9245 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:I really think Balthazar doesn't fit the antagonist role well at all. He didn't jump out to fight Abaddon in Nightfall, why did he do that against the dragons? Even as a villain, disguise as a Mursaat to trick people doesn't fit his personality at all.

Menzies, on the other hand would make a lot of sense, he was a cunning villain and the ally of Abaddon during Nightfall.

I'd disagree with that. Firstly, "half-brother to a god" is a pretty damn good stepping stone for bringing new folks into the story of the gods, and could have been continued with Dhuum or some other Mists-based threat. We don't know the nature of Menzies yet - is he a soul, a demigod, or a god in his own right? We don't know. They could have played on that, expanded him giving gw1 vets something and gw2 newbies something at the same time. He's a figure from GW1, but with so little lore it wouldn't be like Livia and Lazarus where the writers would have to play recap for non-gw1 vets.

With how little Balthazar was, and the fact that he was a former god not an actual god, there's not much difference the two would have had in terms of overall plot feeling. Except ArenaNet wouldn't have to deal with humans breaking faith - which they barely did anyways.

Probably because Menzies is a pretty bad name and is best left forgotten. I see it's a legit Scottish name, but in my world, Menzies is shorthand for menstruation.So the male god of war constantly battling Menzies never quite vibed with me.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Ultimately, bad choice making.

There's no presented reason to not have used Menzies. Especially since the whole Lazarus guise was 100% Menzies' M.O.

@Djinn.9245 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:I really think Balthazar doesn't fit the antagonist role well at all. He didn't jump out to fight Abaddon in Nightfall, why did he do that against the dragons? Even as a villain, disguise as a Mursaat to trick people doesn't fit his personality at all.

Menzies, on the other hand would make a lot of sense, he was a cunning villain and the ally of Abaddon during Nightfall.

Menizes is the lord of destruction and the major ally of Abaadon. He would have been a great villain.

Im going to put it down here, i thought up a story that would have made Path of Fire better in my oppinion.

S3 goes on as normal, until the part with Primordus, instead of balthazar there summoning his hounds, he summons 2 abbysals.then the last episode is not about lazarus, but about why he summoned abbysals and finally figure out it is Menzies disguised as Balthazar.

Then name the expansion Path of Shadows.Story continues until we arrive at the Mouth of Torment, adding a big meta event to stop The Greater Darkness, while the story sneaks into the portal.There we find Menzies, he found out about The Gift that the gods gave to kormir so absorb divine power, so then Menzies kills kormir and uses that Gift to absorb Kormir's divine power.Now as a full god he goes after Kralkatorrik, ignoring the puny commander.

then at the Kodash Bazaar we encounter Menzies using his own power, not a machine to attack Kralkatorrik.We then hav to evade his attacks,, until we summon 3 platforms, the same used to chain Abaddon. This chains Menzies so you can attack it, then he breaks free and the chains spawn Monoliths, killing the monoliths charges the chains while evading Menzies attacks with help of Aurene.The after Menzies dies the cinematic plays as normal with kralkatorrik and aurene absorbing the magic.

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:His darknesses are all mesmers, so it would make more sense for him to do it than Balthazar.

We should be wary about concluding anything from in-game profession choices. They fairly often don't mean a huge amount lorewise.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Menzies was all about deception and trickery, turning folks traitor, etc. etc. That's the reason why the Fissure of Woe elite mission existed in GW1 - Menzies could only gain the upper hand via his deceptive tactics. Which continued, to a lesser degree due to lesser interaction, in Nightfall side quests.

And it's not literal mythology when it's a documentation of actual historical events. Or dealing with Balthazar's servants who had personally met Balthazar.

We had precious little actual history to go on, though. We have plaques written by worshippers or others, referring to events hundreds of years past (at Tahnnakai and the statues), and the efforts and statements of his Eternal army, who are pledged to his cause.

My point is that we never actually meet him or see him. We cannot with great confidence talk about his character in GW1; mostly we can refer to the legend he left behind.

@Neilos Tyrhanos.5427 said:

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:His darknesses are all mesmers, so it would make more sense for him to do it than Balthazar.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Menzies was all about deception and trickery, turning folks traitor, etc. etc. That's the reason why the Fissure of Woe elite mission existed in GW1 - Menzies could only gain the upper hand via his deceptive tactics. Which continued, to a lesser degree due to lesser interaction, in Nightfall side quests.

And it's not literal mythology when it's a documentation of actual historical events. Or dealing with Balthazar's servants who had personally met Balthazar.

The number of mesmers showed his favor, and he did use tricks in FoW. Making allegiance with Abaddon and Mallyx was also a smart move. From the we have known, he was powerful and cunning villain.

My bet is Menzies is still working on freeing Dhuum. With the 5 gone, Balthazar doing his own thing...it is only logical that the defenses holding Dhuum are weakened to near uselessness. Besides, with Dhuum being one of the original gods, he may be the very thing that causes the 5 to return.

@moonstarmac.4603 said:My bet is Menzies is still working on freeing Dhuum. With the 5 gone, Balthazar doing his own thing...it is only logical that the defenses holding Dhuum are weakened to near uselessness. Besides, with Dhuum being one of the original gods, he may be the very thing that causes the 5 to return.

If they can strip Balthazar of his godly power and with Dhuum being an ever present threat why wouldn't they do the same before leaving for good?

@silvermember.8941 said:

@moonstarmac.4603 said:My bet is Menzies is still working on freeing Dhuum. With the 5 gone, Balthazar doing his own thing...it is only logical that the defenses holding Dhuum are weakened to near uselessness. Besides, with Dhuum being one of the original gods, he may be the very thing that causes the 5 to return.

Because they didn't leave! They just wanted to show up and say "we are leaving", and its all a fake, because they don't wanna listen to stupid prayers anymore! XDDD All is cheated!