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Lootboxes court ruling in the Netherlands


Zok.4956

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Hi,

as you may remember, there are several countries in Europe, that rule against illegal gambling in computer games. In Belgium EA had to remove to option to pay for lootboxes with real money in FIFA in 2019.

In the Netherlands the goverment regulator for gambling (Ksa) ruled in the past that the Lootboxes of EA FIFA are in fact illegal gambling (EA needs a license for this kind of gambling). EA did not agree with that decision and went to court against it.

Now a dutch court in Den Haag ruled (SGR 20/3038 and SGR 20/3905) in October 2020, that those lootboxes are in fact illegal gambling and EA has to remove them within three weeks or EA has to pay a penalty of 500000 Euro PER WEEK.

Whats interesting about this for GW2: The court explained their decision why it is gambling with the fact, that those Lootboxes can be bought with real money. It is still gambling, if there are also other ways to buy lootboxes (i.e. in-game currency) without paying real money. It also does not matter if the items are Pay-to-win or just cosmetic.

From my understanding, the lootboxes in GW2, the Black-Lion boxes, seem to match the courts criteria of illegal gambling. You can buy Black-Lion boxes with GEMs that you can buy with real money.

The courts ruling is legally not final. EA still could appeal to the ruling and involve a higher court.

I am wondering, if the lootboxes/gambling in GW2 will be changed in time, or if Anet/NCsoft waits until the last moment with this change and hopes, that higher courts will decide differently, or that GW2 is too small as a game and they can duck-and-cover for a long time until then, because tempting minors to gamble is a too good revenue stream for the company.

P.S. Not every gambling is illegal. But to be allowed to provide gambling and online gambling in a lot of european countries, you have to apply for a gambling license. This gambling license does usually include, that you must not allow minors to gamble and that you must follow the other rules for the online gambling license.

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Anet's out in this situation is that you do not have to spend real money to acquire the chests or even the keys to open them. The chests can drop as loot and that is how I've gotten most of mine. And since you can convert gold into gems to get the black lion keys you are not forced to spend real money. I don't know if EA's sports games work similarly or not, I don't play them.

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When Belgium made loot boxes illegal Anet waited until the law went into effect, then simply made it impossible for players in Belgium to buy black lion keys with gems. There was no alternative or work-around put in place. I expect they'll do something similar here.

Although sooner or later they may have to find an alternative. I know the UK government is conducting a review of gambling legislation which includes considering how loot boxes in games should be classified and might well end up in a similar situation, and other countries are doing the same. I think there's also been at least one attempt to get an EU-wide law put in place, but of course it hasn't happened yet.

If enough countries bring in similar laws Anet will have to decide between losing revenue from all of them by blocking players from buying keys without proving an alternative, complying with all the different laws (which could be impossible if they contradict each other, and expensive if it requires paying for a licence and paying higher taxes like in the UK) or changing black lion chests/keys so they're no longer classed as gambling. Or scrapping them all together and finding another way to sell those items.

But I suspect until it reaches some kind of 'critical mass' where the number of players blocked from buying them is high enough that it's losing Anet a lot of money they'll just keep disabling them anywhere which regulates loot boxes.

@Jagblade.4627 said:Anet's out in this situation is that you do not have to spend real money to acquire the chests or even the keys to open them. The chests can drop as loot and that is how I've gotten most of mine. And since you can convert gold into gems to get the black lion keys you are not forced to spend real money. I don't know if EA's sports games work similarly or not, I don't play them.

According to the OP's post that was specifically addressed in this case and the court decided it's not a defence. It doesn't matter what any individual or even Anet thinks, if the court says it's illegal in the Netherlands then it is. I haven't looked into the details but if the courts definition of loot boxes as gambling includes black lion chests Anet will have either pay for and comply with a gambling licence or stop selling black lion keys in the Netherlands.

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@Zok.4956 said:Whats interesting about this for GW2: The court explained their decision why it is gambling with the fact, that those Lootboxes can be bought with real money. It is still gambling, if there are also other ways to buy lootboxes (i.e. in-game currency) without paying real money. It also does not matter if the items are Pay-to-win or just cosmetic.Incorrect from what I understood.

The main issues I believe was two-fold (ignoring the actual gambling mechanics):

1) EA market it to children 3 and up. That just wrong in so many ways.

2) They could sell the cards on 3rd party sites (similar to CS gambling that caused such a ruckus), thus convert ingame gambling to real money. Not 100% certain as I've never played Fifa but thats what I got out of it.

For GW2, at least its rated teen. And on the second part, thats both clear and diffuse at the same time. Items in the BL shop is for your account or is sold via the ingame trading post for gold. It would be a hazzle to sell items - or your entire account - for actual money but of course it is theoretically possible.

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Um, you get a black lion statue and a seasonal item with each key you purchase as well as up to three random bonus items. As long as the entire content isn't rng these will not qualify as gambling technically. Take away the gauranteed items and you have an argument. This is the wrong game to worry about this issue with.

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Given that keys are already banned in Belgium I wouldn't be too too confident that the current arrangements are just fine. Courts often see through nonsense like claiming that people buy the chests for the guaranteed item that's included, otherwise anyone could get out of the restrictions by including some trivial guaranteed item.

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Regardless of what ANet is doing, regardless of anyone's personal opinion about the definition of "loot box" and what might or might not be appropriate for games (or people of various ages), the world's governments are largely indifferent.


there are several countries in Europe, that rule against illegal gambling in computer games.Currently, there are two in Europe.https://screenrant.com/lootbox-gambling-microtransactions-illegal-japan-china-belgium-netherlands/

  • Netherlands, since 2018 (what's new this week: the result of an enforcement action — a judge ruled that EA violated the rules, and set the amount of the fine; it's not a new law)
  • Belgium, since 2019 (result: ANet doesn't allow BL keys to be sold for gems, in any form; applies to Belgian IP addresses, so can be circumvented with 3rd party banking + VPN)

The article also mentions two other countries with loot box regulations:

  • Japan, since 2012 (no apparent impact on GW2)
  • China, since 2016 (the GW2 available in China is very different from ours and cannot be reasonably considered precedent)

Other countries (limited list).

  • The UK government is actively researching current practices and player reactions, but has yet to offer any formal rules. The House of Commons has merely decided that it is within their remit to decide. (The consensus among political reporters: the UK will, eventually, propose regulation. With Brexit, this will have limited international impact.)
  • The US Federal government is not actively pursuing any regulation. One US senator proposed something in May 2019, and the bill never made it out of committee. A few states have had individual politicians raise the issue, again without any formal result.
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@Super Hayes.6890 said:Um, you get a black lion statue and a seasonal item with each key you purchase as well as up to three random bonus items. As long as the entire content isn't rng these will not qualify as gambling technically. Take away the gauranteed items and you have an argument. This is the wrong game to worry about this issue with.

Great, I'll open a casino and, since you get a guaranteed lollipop on each pull of the slot-machine, legally operate it as a candy shop! /s

I don't know in which countries this legal work-around works, but I'm rather certain the Netherlands isn't one of them.

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@Super Hayes.6890 said:Um, you get a black lion statue and a seasonal item with each key you purchase as well as up to three random bonus items. As long as the entire content isn't rng these will not qualify as gambling technically. Take away the gauranteed items and you have an argument. This is the wrong game to worry about this issue with.

Gambling is defined as a game of chance for money so I concur. Gambling is not the same as buying random items- that's just buying random items. If the chests had a chance of granting more gold or gems with a chance to not get anything then they would have a stronger argument. Selling what you get from those chests for gold I think is irrelevant to the gambling argument.

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@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

At first glance the reasoning of the gambling authority (in 7.1) seems to be that coins, which the objects acquired from the lootbox can be traded for, can be sold for real money on third party sites even if that's against EA's rules, the court seems to accept this reasoning.

Given that GW2 gold can be sold on 3rd party sites for real money (which is similarly against the rules) and certain items can be sold on the trade post I don't see a lot of reasons for a judgement involving GW2 ending differently (unless this gets appealed resulting in a different conclusion), there's a few small differences but I doubt they'll lead to a different conclusion.Now whether GW2 is anywhere near he top of the list for enforcement is another question.

@"aspirine.6852" said:I'd rather see that my government doesnt meddle in my gaming affairs. I think they have some more serious issues right now instead of belittle people..

"Gambling affairs", not "gaming affairs".

As for the excuses Anet might use that some people are mentioning, good luck with that, but I'm not seeing those working.

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@Etienne.3049 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

At first glance the reasoning of the gambling authority (in 7.1) seems to be that coins, which the objects acquired from the lootbox can be traded for, can be sold for real money on third party sites even if that's against EA's rules, the court seems to accept this reasoning.

Given that GW2 gold can be sold on 3rd party sites for real money (which is similarly against the rules) and certain items can be sold on the trade post I don't see a lot of reasons for a judgement involving GW2 ending differently (unless this gets appealed resulting in a different conclusion), there's a few small differences but I doubt they'll lead to a different conclusion.Now whether GW2 is anywhere near he top of the list for enforcement is another question.

@"aspirine.6852" said:I'd rather see that my government doesnt meddle in my gaming affairs. I think they have some more serious issues right now instead of belittle people..

"Gambling affairs", not "gaming affairs".

As for the excuses Anet might use that some people are mentioning, good luck with that, but I'm not seeing those working.

Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100. Those that don’t want to pay that much can just buy gold and purchase them off the TP.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100.

That's not really an easy solution, because there's no single set of rules that applies. In Belgium, for instance, the resellability of acquired items isn't a factor like it is in the Netherlands. Until the EU introduces universal rules for the whole block, expect every country to come up with its own rules with their own particular quirks.

Also worth noting, neither the Netherlands nor Belgium have passed any laws specific to loot boxes. Both countries just have had existing laws tested against loot box systems.

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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100.

That's not really an easy solution, because there's no single set of rules that applies. In Belgium, for instance, the resellability of acquired items isn't a factor like it is in the Netherlands. Until the EU introduces universal rules for the whole block, expect every country to come up with its own rules with their own particular quirks.

Also worth noting, neither the Netherlands nor Belgium have passed any laws specific to loot boxes. Both countries just have had existing laws tested against loot box systems.

But the second option can apply to all situations. You assign prices to all items not already available on the TP at the cost it would take on average to obtain them by buying keys. You of course make the black lion chest unavailable to those individuals. No RNG. No Loot boxes. You acquire the items at the cost you would have otherwise spent on average.

Unless of course the real issue is that people are against loot boxes because they want it removed in hopes of getting the items for cheaper than now.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100.

That's not really an easy solution, because there's no single set of rules that applies. In Belgium, for instance, the resellability of acquired items isn't a factor like it is in the Netherlands. Until the EU introduces universal rules for the whole block, expect every country to come up with its own rules with their own particular quirks.

Also worth noting, neither the Netherlands nor Belgium have passed any laws specific to loot boxes. Both countries just have had existing laws tested against loot box systems.

But the second option can apply to all situations. You assign prices to all items not already available on the TP at the cost it would take on average to obtain them by buying keys. You of course make the black lion chest unavailable to those individuals. No RNG. No Loot boxes. You acquire the items at the cost you would have otherwise spent on average.They could, true, but they'll never do that because the insane prices they'd have to put on things like the permanent contracts would make them the talk of the town, and not in a good way. They could make those drops less rare of course.

Edit: I guess by TP you mean the trading post instead of the BL store for direct purchase. If so, ignore the above.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

At first glance the reasoning of the gambling authority (in 7.1) seems to be that coins, which the objects acquired from the lootbox can be traded for, can be sold for real money on third party sites even if that's against EA's rules, the court seems to accept this reasoning.

Given that GW2 gold can be sold on 3rd party sites for real money (which is similarly against the rules) and certain items can be sold on the trade post I don't see a lot of reasons for a judgement involving GW2 ending differently (unless this gets appealed resulting in a different conclusion), there's a few small differences but I doubt they'll lead to a different conclusion.Now whether GW2 is anywhere near he top of the list for enforcement is another question.

@"aspirine.6852" said:I'd rather see that my government doesnt meddle in my gaming affairs. I think they have some more serious issues right now instead of belittle people..

"Gambling affairs", not "gaming affairs".

As for the excuses Anet might use that some people are mentioning, good luck with that, but I'm not seeing those working.

Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100. Those that don’t want to pay that much can just buy gold and purchase them off the TP.

So ... a friend of mine is quite lucky with BL-Keys. He has often got mounts and other valuable stuff by opening 1-10 keys. Often even with the first key which he also dropped randomly.Does this mean that the items are free or just a few $ ? :)

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@"Zok.4956" said:Hi,

as you may remember, there are several countries in Europe, that rule against illegal gambling in computer games. In Belgium EA had to remove to option to pay for lootboxes with real money in FIFA in 2019.

In the Netherlands the goverment regulator for gambling (Ksa) ruled in the past that the Lootboxes of EA FIFA are in fact illegal gambling (EA needs a license for this kind of gambling). EA did not agree with that decision and went to court against it.

Now a dutch court in Den Haag ruled (SGR 20/3038 and SGR 20/3905) in October 2020, that those lootboxes are in fact illegal gambling and EA has to remove them within three weeks or EA has to pay a penalty of 500000 Euro PER WEEK.

Whats interesting about this for GW2: The court explained their decision why it is gambling with the fact, that those Lootboxes can be bought with real money. It is still gambling, if there are also other ways to buy lootboxes (i.e. in-game currency) without paying real money. It also does not matter if the items are Pay-to-win or just cosmetic.

From my understanding, the lootboxes in GW2, the Black-Lion boxes, seem to match the courts criteria of illegal gambling. You can buy Black-Lion boxes with GEMs that you can buy with real money.

The courts ruling is legally not final. EA still could appeal to the ruling and involve a higher court.

I am wondering, if the lootboxes/gambling in GW2 will be changed in time, or if Anet/NCsoft waits until the last moment with this change and hopes, that higher courts will decide differently, or that GW2 is too small as a game and they can duck-and-cover for a long time until then, because tempting minors to gamble is a too good revenue stream for the company.

P.S. Not every gambling is illegal. But to be allowed to provide gambling and online gambling in a lot of european countries, you have to apply for a gambling license. This gambling license does usually include, that you must not allow minors to gamble and that you must follow the other rules for the online gambling license.

Are you implying that Black Lion Chest items fall under these these types of categories?

“Star cards were essential to improving the abilities of users’ characters in online multi-player mode. By stashing star cards inside of loot boxes, users had to pay for random multiplayer advantages.”

“Loot boxes in and of themselves are not necessarily controversial. Trading cash for in-game advantages (often essential), however, is murky territory.“

“Back in 2017, EA sparked a huge online controversy with loot boxes in "Star Wars: Battlefront II." Iconic characters like Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker were exclusively available through loot boxes upon the game's release, causing outrage among passionate "Star Wars" fans.”

“In EA's soccer game, "FIFA 19," players can purchase loot boxes in the form of randomized player cards. The cards are used to build a team of star players in a competitive mode called "FIFA Ultimate Team," but the best players are hard to find. In fact, some of the rarest cards in FIFA 19 show up in less than 1% of packs.”

Yeah, you can buy Black Lion Keys with money. Players can also exchange their game gold to get Black Lion Keys for free.

Nothing in those BL chest have ever provided a competitive advantage, aka “pay to win”, over other players. And if EU wants to go crazy with blanket regulations then game companies will just region block certain sales and call it a day.

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@Swagger.1459 said:Nothing in those BL chest have ever provided a competitive advantage, aka “pay to win”, over other players. And if EU wants to go crazy with blanket regulations then game companies will just region block certain sales and call it a day.I think ANet will think of something other than blocking a region with a greater population than the USA.

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@Jagblade.4627 said:Anet's out in this situation is that you do not have to spend real money to acquire the chests or even the keys to open them. The chests can drop as loot and that is how I've gotten most of mine. And since you can convert gold into gems to get the black lion keys you are not forced to spend real money. I don't know if EA's sports games work similarly or not, I don't play them.

You can also find keys randomly while playing the game and farm them in game by making new characters and running them through specific story instances, only one of which is looked behind a weekly time gate.So you can obtain both chests and keys simply by playing the game and never needing to spend real money on either of them.

EA has really screwed the whole industry over thank's to it's greedy slimy behaviour in past years.I'm glad I choose to stop buying their games back in 2013 when they destroyed the Dead Space series, they have been nothing but a stain on this industry for a very long time.

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@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@mercury ranique.2170 said:I've been reading the court ruling. The court is very clear that it is important that the content of the lootboxes have a value not only in the virtual economy but also on the real market. As this is not the case with GW2, I doubt this ruling change anything

At first glance the reasoning of the gambling authority (in 7.1) seems to be that coins, which the objects acquired from the lootbox can be traded for, can be sold for real money on third party sites even if that's against EA's rules, the court seems to accept this reasoning.

Given that GW2 gold can be sold on 3rd party sites for real money (which is similarly against the rules) and certain items can be sold on the trade post I don't see a lot of reasons for a judgement involving GW2 ending differently (unless this gets appealed resulting in a different conclusion), there's a few small differences but I doubt they'll lead to a different conclusion.Now whether GW2 is anywhere near he top of the list for enforcement is another question.

@"aspirine.6852" said:I'd rather see that my government doesnt meddle in my gaming affairs. I think they have some more serious issues right now instead of belittle people..

"Gambling affairs", not "gaming affairs".

As for the excuses Anet might use that some people are mentioning, good luck with that, but I'm not seeing those working.

Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the
average number of keys that it would take
and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100. Those that don’t want to pay that much can just buy gold and purchase them off the TP.

So ... a friend of mine is quite lucky with BL-Keys. He has often got mounts and other valuable stuff by opening 1-10 keys. Often even with the first key which he also dropped randomly.Does this mean that the items are free or just a few $ ? :)

I bolded the part of my post that's relevant to what you said. I never said anything about outliers.

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Easy solution. Created a version of the black lion chest for those countries ruling against loot boxes and have all items be account bound.

Or Anet can calculate the amount to sell each of the tradeable items from the chest by taking the average number of keys that it would take and use the cost for those keys. If it would take $100 in keys for an item then it sells for $100.

That's not really an easy solution, because there's no single set of rules that applies. In Belgium, for instance, the resellability of acquired items isn't a factor like it is in the Netherlands. Until the EU introduces universal rules for the whole block, expect every country to come up with its own rules with their own particular quirks.

Also worth noting, neither the Netherlands nor Belgium have passed any laws specific to loot boxes. Both countries just have had existing laws tested against loot box systems.

But the second option can apply to all situations. You assign prices to all items not already available on the TP at the cost it would take on average to obtain them by buying keys. You of course make the black lion chest unavailable to those individuals. No RNG. No Loot boxes. You acquire the items at the cost you would have otherwise spent on average.They could, true, but they'll never do that because the insane prices they'd have to put on things like the permanent contracts would make them the talk of the town, and not in a good way. They could make those drops less rare of course.

Edit: I guess by TP you mean the trading post instead of the BL store for direct purchase. If so, ignore the above.

I meant the BL store but I honestly don't think they would go that route. I was just trying to highlight that, what I believe to be the case, is that most of the people against loot boxes just want the items for cheaper.

Anet could also just sell the statuettes directly for the cost of keys or instead use them as a sort of rewards system where you get a fixed amount depending on the cost of the purchase.

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@Manasa Devi.7958 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Nothing in those BL chest have ever provided a competitive advantage, aka “pay to win”, over other players. And if EU wants to go crazy with blanket regulations then game companies will just region block certain sales and call it a day.I think ANet will think of something other than blocking a region with a greater population than the USA.

I would think again...

https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001978607

"FAQ: This Item is Not Available for Purchase in your RegionIn some regions, certain items may be disabled or unavailable to purchase by users. If this is the case, you may receive the following error when viewing some items in the Gem Store:

This item is not available for purchase in your region.

The most common reason you'll see this message is when an item cannot be sold due to local or regional laws. In most cases, these laws are targeted at items with random elements that can be purchased with real money.

Please note that some items are only offered at specific times during the year. For more information about how and when you can obtain any given item, please visit the official Guild Wars 2 wiki.

Current RestrictionsHere are the territories currently impacted by local or regional gaming laws:

Belgium"

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