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WE NEED: Raid Reward Tracks

Tom.1852Tom.1852 Member

I think Reward Tracks were one of the best additions to rewarding Players in this game they've ever had, this way, people that enjoy specific content, can play that without missing out. I just see a small problem with how Anet sees PvE right now, for them PvE is just everything in one pot, open world, fractals, dungeons and raids. All of those offer repeatable rewards, except for raids.

Maybe they assume the average raid player gets their clear and then farms daily fracs and open world events for the rest of the week?

At least for me and many people i play with that is not true at all, for them, they do not know what to do with the game anymore after having gotten their clears, the average raiding squad, expects you to use good buffood which is pretty expensive and after having gotten the weekly clear and we still wanna raid abit what do we get? some green and blue gear ?

What I am suggesting is, Raid Reward tracks, each boss kill gives a little bit of Progress, maybe some bosses more than others, maybe killing the same boss over and over again gives less reward track progress each time until you have killed some others to prevent farming the same boss all the time?

Maybe this would be a nice opportunity to add an NPC which will reset your raid clear progress so you can clear a wing again.

The Reward Tracks could have Living Story Rewards with abit of Consumables used in Raids and** Transmutation Charges**, yes correct, as someone who plays 90% raids, you just don't get those.

When i've read about the Weekly CM Rewards i was so hyped, i thought maybe, we finally get meaningful good rewards somewhat like when you first beat a CM and get Ascended Equipment and a bunch of cool stuff, but the 10 Gold and Provisioner Tokens, they are better than nothing and i like how they seem to care, but i want more!

And i think we deserve more, some people probably do 3-4 Full Clears a week, and by experience, those people will slowly get burned out, maybe they even make less gold from raids than they spend because they are sitting around with expensive food on 24/7, and that just feels unfair.

Then we have the news, that currently there is noone working on new Raids, so it should be in everyone's interest to keep these People that just enjoy raiding around with what we already got, and in MMOs one way to keep people playing is actually reward them for what they are doing.

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Comments

  • @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.
    Edit: And I don't mean as a joke. I am fully with the TE. Reward tracks in Wvw and especially PVP are simply OP. And yes, I would like some of that cake. While WVW and PVP can get almost everything about tracks available in PVE. The other way, it looks different and that is unfair x).

    Hey its not a bad idea but make the reward tracks worth our time no is gonna farm tracks if they have the wvw version loot, needs to have gold and at least on the level of pvp mode reward tracks. they added a kind of reward track with the weekly cm mode raids but honestly whos gonna bother doing that cancer just for an extra 10 gold what 0.005 % of the population ? ;)

  • would love a raid reward track to make raids even more rewarding, maybe once the easier mode comes out for it (since it was mentioned that a "story mode" for raids was a possibility). probably would determine progress on track based on difficulty of encounter (least on story, normal on normal, and most on challange; as well as add challange motes to all previous encounters without them)

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.

    it worked out quite well in drizzlewood imo. would be nice if they updated some of the older maps with metas such as silverwaste and the original HoT maps with a track, though idk how and which maps would get them implemented.

    i would even go further with Fractal/dungeon/strike tracks, more rewards mean more content engagement and reward tracks for dungeons would definitely help bring that content back to life as well as prevent other content from hopefully dying off.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2020

    @Amrothian.3721 said:

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.
    Edit: And I don't mean as a joke. I am fully with the TE. Reward tracks in Wvw and especially PVP are simply OP. And yes, I would like some of that cake. While WVW and PVP can get almost everything about tracks available in PVE. The other way, it looks different and that is unfair x).

    The reason anet even added reward tracks in WvW/PvP was because you almost got no loot or reward from any of these contents (In WvW you would get just a few champ bags if you capped some stuff or lootbags if you were farming the enemy but this is very inconsistent).
    so you would reward pve with even more loot and make the reward totally unbalanced and unfair towards WvW/pvp players

    Yep :).
    Simply because you shouldn't push PVE people into WVW or PVP just for some special skins. This only leads to the fact that most of them do it the way I do and leech the kitten out of WVW and PVP, with afk-farming(in wvw) and other methods(in pvp).

    On the other hand I don't mind if WVW people get more of the cake. But since I'm not interested in WVW and PVP, I only talk for what I know and play :).
    That's why I didn't say anything about Raids. I don't play them actively anymore, because of boredom.

    Because of me(Because in my opinion? Don't know how to describe 'meinetwegen' in english) everyone should get his cake.
    CAKE FOR EVERYONE.

  • @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    I am speaking for about all the people i raid with. So i went with "WE NEED". Good that you think the rewards are okay, but it does seem like you didnt read fully until the end. It might be that for people that log on 2 days per week, clear all the raids and dont play anymore until next Monday the rewards appear good. But i am talking about people that log on every evening and just raid, even though they have gotten their weekly. Those rewards are abysmal, and the main issue is, you CANNOT get trans charges, you CANNOT get living world currency playing raids only.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    we still not have Silverwaster reward track :)) so yes, raid track is good idea, but if we keep vision to it, we should understand that each tack comple should also close any or random achievement in raid part. It will make tht raid track more attractive.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know... That's not a bad idea in itself, atleast people who Try raiding will be incentivized to Keep trying and keep raiding to get some progress...

    Just as it can easily lead to people joining raids, doing nothing and still getting rewards... It's complicated. I dont know, could work, but then again might just lead to more problems. I think in the long term it might be worth it ?

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    Listen man We can mean him and his girlfriend or as he said his raid friends. Someone saying We doesn't automatically include you or me just because We read it. So getting upset because someone said We and admonishing them to speak for themselves is your issue

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it's time to let Raids go.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    Listen man We can mean him and his girlfriend or as he said his raid friends. Someone saying We doesn't automatically include you or me just because We read it. So getting upset because someone said We and admonishing them to speak for themselves is your issue

    In the context of a forum thread title, it can appear to mean the entire community "needs" something. It very well can seem as if the OP is speaking for everyone. /shrug

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blude.6812 said:
    Maybe it's time to let Raids go.

    There are still enough people who raid.
    Or should we just shut down everything that has a smaller player population than 1 1 1 PVE content?
    Wait ... that would be everything except 1 1 1 PVE Content.
    I understand if you don't like something, but I really don't understand(I mean, I understand it ... Humans) that there are so many people here who always want to make the content they do not like look bad.

    Anything else I would write about it would lead to the deleting of my post, even without insults, so...
    If you don't like it, ignore it, but let others enjoy it. And a few more rewards for raiders (and wvw'ler) would not lead to the end of the world.

  • Vavume.8065Vavume.8065 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.

    There is already a map rewards system for completing events that gives extra loot but yeah I agree it would be better to have reward tracks instead.

  • Schimmi.6872Schimmi.6872 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.
    Edit: And I don't mean as a joke. I am fully with the TE. Reward tracks in Wvw and especially PVP are simply OP. And yes, I would like some of that cake. While WVW and PVP can get almost everything about tracks available in PVE. The other way, it looks different and that is unfair x).

    Reward tracks for the open world already exist, they aren't just as visible as their PvP-/Wvw-counterpart:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Map_bonus_reward

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm talking about reward tracks that give you the special skins from WVW and PVP. Just like WVW and PVP get almost all skins through tracks ^^.

  • blp.3489blp.3489 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I'm talking about reward tracks that give you the special skins from WVW and PVP. Just like WVW and PVP get almost all skins through tracks ^^.

    It would be great if wvw and pve players could get the special skins from raids, the legendary armor from raids looks so much cooler than the wvw version.

  • Jilora.9524Jilora.9524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @Jilora.9524 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    Listen man We can mean him and his girlfriend or as he said his raid friends. Someone saying We doesn't automatically include you or me just because We read it. So getting upset because someone said We and admonishing them to speak for themselves is your issue

    In the context of a forum thread title, it can appear to mean the entire community "needs" something. It very well can seem as if the OP is speaking for everyone. /shrug

    No, not one suggestion by anyone have I thought they were or are speaking for me. He said he doesn't think a reward trak for raids or we need a reward trak for raids which is fine. Technically you can fight anyone ever saying need cause there are very few things we actually need in life but again that's just fighting someone talking a certain way. Obviously we don't need reward traks but they would be a nice addition for some and others don't want them. The speak for yourself was unneeded because we could do that all day on here when someone doesn't word it perfectly and that anyone feels the need to correct or admonish someone when I know this dude saying we need is not speaking for me at all it's just an idea he had

    WvW band wagoners ruin the game mode just like Karen's ruin these forums.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭

    @blp.3489 said:

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I'm talking about reward tracks that give you the special skins from WVW and PVP. Just like WVW and PVP get almost all skins through tracks ^^.

    It would be great if wvw and pve players could get the special skins from raids, the legendary armor from raids looks so much cooler than the wvw version.

    Its exactly the opposite for me. Except for the light one, I find the WVW legy armor much nicer(and the PVP).
    And the PVP back is so much prettier than that ugly fractal thing xx.

    It would be nice if you could just get all the skins when you craft these two things (for the armor of course only the respective class light, heavy, medium).
    But that would be a completely different topic again :'').

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well there are reward tracks for dungeons.. so it kinda does make some sense I guess.
    Guess they could throw in a fractal track too that could give more fractal based loot to help speed along some stuff there.

    I wouldn't be completely against PvE getting reward tracks although I would stress that it would have to be very long and demand a huge ExP investment to actually finish.
    The way some people go through PvE and with all the boosters available etc they'd be maxing several of these things out per hour.

    Anet would have to find a way to limit that but at the very least it would make gaining EXP feel actually useful once again, atm Spirit Shards are hardly something most people care about, most of us have a pretty big stockpile of them and don't really use them for anything.

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • Atomos.7593Atomos.7593 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fuchslein.8639 said:
    I think we need Reward Tracks in PVE-OpenWorld.
    Edit: And I don't mean as a joke. I am fully with the TE. Reward tracks in Wvw and especially PVP are simply OP. And yes, I would like some of that cake. While WVW and PVP can get almost everything about tracks available in PVE. The other way, it looks different and that is unfair x).

    Interesting idea. If we could get reward tracks to get some of the rewards available in the other open world PvE maps, it may encourage a more spreading out of the player population in open world, because for example I might be able to complete events in core Tyria maps and still use these to help complete a Dragonfall or Drizzlewood Coast reward track.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    For how many hours of content it got to the people that play it, I bet living story is a bigger waste of development.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    I am speaking for about all the people i raid with. So i went with "WE NEED". Good that you think the rewards are okay, but it does seem like you didnt read fully until the end. It might be that for people that log on 2 days per week, clear all the raids and dont play anymore until next Monday the rewards appear good. But i am talking about people that log on every evening and just raid, even though they have gotten their weekly. Those rewards are abysmal, and the main issue is, you CANNOT get trans charges, you CANNOT get living world currency playing raids only.

    Then why are you raiding?

    because it's very fun

    Fun is subjective. I don't find raiding fun at all.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Funky.4861Funky.4861 Member ✭✭✭

    I find it hard to get on board with people who limit themselves to a niche part of the game and complain that it isn't rewarding enough/they are bored. Once you've done your weekly raid clear, just move on and do strikes/fracs/OW or slob about in other modes.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raid...?
    No?

    PvE?
    YES.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids really burned a hole into the almost 400 people large company at the time, especially since those people constantly had to step away from that content and help out elsewhere (LW, expansions, etc.). They also brought a lot of what they learned with that content back into other aspects of the game, making Raids some of the highest value addition for dev time in the game.
    But them being spread so thin on that content front is also what caused their release to slow down and the following rapid drops in playerbase in the first place, for which they then were deemed unsustainable to no fault of that content.

    Meanwhile the massive rescourge hog LW, which sure, is played by more people (although early Raids, when they were still properly supported with a reasonable release cadence, actually had higher efficiency completion rates than some later LW episodes, so there is that), has also just a large amount of people not actually caring about the content at all and just play it because it's all there is, as filler.

    Something like a LW episode takes a tremendous amount of resources, from creating large maps to writing, voice acting etc., then a large amount of players plays through it once in an hour or two and that's it, yet another soon to be ghost town.
    Something like a Raid or Fractal at least brings a minority hundreds of hours of high quality, highly repeatable entertainment each, while being much less to produce.

    If you want to talk about a content hole that wasted way to many dev hours for way too little return, and where content design by "engagement" metrics went wrong, LW is far and wide in the lead there, as something many play but few care about.
    In 2019 Anet did nothing but release super easy mostly non repeatable OW content with LW, and at the same time saw record revenue drops to the game (over -25%), leading them to hastily announce another far off expansion because they realised LW, which they going by the metrics apparently wanted to entirely focus on, was just not at all carrying the game and playerbase.

    As for the topic at hand, theoretically Reward Tracks are a good idea for all content at this point imo.
    This community has been highly trained to only really care about loot through years of highly rewarding low (gameplay) quality content (LW and such), so having that extra bar that fills up with shinies for whatever a player chooses to do could go a long way to keep people motivated.
    PvE tracks (be it OW, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.) would have to fill very, very slowly though or give much reduced/more minor rewards compared to PvP/WvW, as that aspect of the game already is fairly rewarding generally.
    Also opting into them should probably work similarly to masteries, in which case Reward Track progress then replaces Mastery or Spirit Shard progress for the time/until disabled.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids really burned a hole into the almost 400 people large company at the time, especially since those people constantly had to step away from that content and help out elsewhere (LW, expansions, etc.). They also brought a lot of what they learned with that content back into other aspects of the game, making Raids some of the highest value addition for dev time in the game.
    But them being spread so thin on that content front is also what caused their release to slow down and the following rapid drops in playerbase in the first place, for which they then were deemed unsustainable to no fault of that content.

    Meanwhile the massive rescourge hog LW, which sure, is played by more people (although early Raids, when they were still properly supported with a reasonable release cadence, actually had higher efficiency completion rates than some later LW episodes, so there is that), has also just a large amount of people not actually caring about the content at all and just play it because it's all there is, as filler.

    Something like a LW episode takes a tremendous amount of resources, from creating large maps to writing, voice acting etc., then a large amount of players plays through it once in an hour or two and that's it, yet another soon to be ghost town.
    Something like a Raid or Fractal at least brings a minority hundreds of hours of high quality, highly repeatable entertainment each, while being much less to produce.

    If you want to talk about a content hole that wasted way to many dev hours for way too little return, and where content design by "engagement" metrics went wrong, LW is far and wide in the lead there, as something many play but few care about.
    In 2019 Anet did nothing but release super easy mostly non repeatable OW content with LW, and at the same time saw record revenue drops to the game (over -25%), leading them to hastily announce another far off expansion because they realised LW, which they going by the metrics apparently wanted to entirely focus on, was just not at all carrying the game and playerbase.

    As for the topic at hand, theoretically Reward Tracks are a good idea for all content at this point imo.
    This community has been highly trained to only really care about loot through years of highly rewarding low (gameplay) quality content (LW and such), so having that extra bar that fills up with shinies for whatever a player chooses to do could go a long way to keep people motivated.
    PvE tracks (be it OW, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.) would have to fill very, very slowly though or give much reduced/more minor rewards compared to PvP/WvW, as that aspect of the game already is fairly rewarding generally.
    Also opting into them should probably work similarly to masteries, in which case Reward Track progress then replaces Mastery or Spirit Shard progress for the time/until disabled.

    A nice post, so basically map rewards we have no but a easily visible track like in wvw and spvp?

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids really burned a hole into the almost 400 people large company at the time, especially since those people constantly had to step away from that content and help out elsewhere (LW, expansions, etc.). They also brought a lot of what they learned with that content back into other aspects of the game, making Raids some of the highest value addition for dev time in the game.
    But them being spread so thin on that content front is also what caused their release to slow down and the following rapid drops in playerbase in the first place, for which they then were deemed unsustainable to no fault of that content.

    Meanwhile the massive rescourge hog LW, which sure, is played by more people (although early Raids, when they were still properly supported with a reasonable release cadence, actually had higher efficiency completion rates than some later LW episodes, so there is that), has also just a large amount of people not actually caring about the content at all and just play it because it's all there is, as filler.

    Something like a LW episode takes a tremendous amount of resources, from creating large maps to writing, voice acting etc., then a large amount of players plays through it once in an hour or two and that's it, yet another soon to be ghost town.
    Something like a Raid or Fractal at least brings a minority hundreds of hours of high quality, highly repeatable entertainment each, while being much less to produce.

    If you want to talk about a content hole that wasted way to many dev hours for way too little return, and where content design by "engagement" metrics went wrong, LW is far and wide in the lead there, as something many play but few care about.
    In 2019 Anet did nothing but release super easy mostly non repeatable OW content with LW, and at the same time saw record revenue drops to the game (over -25%), leading them to hastily announce another far off expansion because they realised LW, which they going by the metrics apparently wanted to entirely focus on, was just not at all carrying the game and playerbase.

    As for the topic at hand, theoretically Reward Tracks are a good idea for all content at this point imo.
    This community has been highly trained to only really care about loot through years of highly rewarding low (gameplay) quality content (LW and such), so having that extra bar that fills up with shinies for whatever a player chooses to do could go a long way to keep people motivated.
    PvE tracks (be it OW, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, etc.) would have to fill very, very slowly though or give much reduced/more minor rewards compared to PvP/WvW, as that aspect of the game already is fairly rewarding generally.
    Also opting into them should probably work similarly to masteries, in which case Reward Track progress then replaces Mastery or Spirit Shard progress for the time/until disabled.

    A nice post, so basically map rewards we have no but a easily visible track like in wvw and spvp?

    Yea, it would probably be a good idea to replace the Map Bonus Reward system (which I honestly forgot existed, which maybe says something) for the more visible and easier to track and understand Reward Track system.

    The Pact Scout's Mapping Materials could then also serve as PvE Reward Track "Potions" for dailies, similarly to what PvP and WvW have, which would likely make them a lot more appealing.

    Reward tracks give people some agency in what goal/track they want to pursue and provide an easily trackable interface for it. In design I find them vastly superior to things like the Map Bonus Reward system or the Drizzlewood Achievement tracks.

    UI wise I suppose they could be situated under the Mastery Tab in the Hero Panel, possibly locked until after reaching level 80 - serving as alternative/additional "endgame" system along the Mastery System.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    I am speaking for about all the people i raid with. So i went with "WE NEED". Good that you think the rewards are okay, but it does seem like you didnt read fully until the end. It might be that for people that log on 2 days per week, clear all the raids and dont play anymore until next Monday the rewards appear good. But i am talking about people that log on every evening and just raid, even though they have gotten their weekly. Those rewards are abysmal, and the main issue is, you CANNOT get trans charges, you CANNOT get living world currency playing raids only.

    Then why are you raiding?

    because it's very fun

    If it's fun, why does it require more rewards? You say you speak for other people, but in that case you should consider telling them to sign in with their own accounts. Would make this more believable.

  • @Yggranya.5201 said:
    If it's fun, why does it require more rewards? You say you speak for other people, but in that case you should consider telling them to sign in with their own accounts. Would make this more believable.

    just because something is fun means we shouldnt get rewards for it? It is fun yes, but it also requires endgame gear and getting enough gear to raid with different characters/builds is expensive, sure, you can wait for all the correct raid drops to gear the next character you want and only ever buy the gear with magnetite/gaeting. But thats a very slow process and trying out new builds/classes for many people is an integral part of the game not becoming dull for them.
    I really wouldnt want to play a game were i only ever get rewarded for unfun content.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids

    The number we heard was 5-6 people. Working full-time on single wing. At the same time when there were still 2 more wings in production (wings 1-3 were developed pretty much concurrently, from what we heard, development on wing 3 started before wing 1 was finished). And there were also people that were working on raids part-time, in addition to other work (like Maclaine Diemer and his music team, who were working on raid music even though they weren't part of the raid team at all). The number of people involved in raid production was way, way bigger than just those 5-6 people.
    If 3-5 people were truly what raids needed for development, you can bet they would still be as actively developed as in the beginning. But it seems that Anet did eventually agree that they were, indeed, a waste of development resources compared to the gain they brought. Which is why at this moment they are abandoned.

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    For how many hours of content it got to the people that play it, I bet living story is a bigger waste of development.

    That's only if you look at it in the per-player basis. Remember, though, that Living Story gives content to way, way more players than raids do.

    A single recent LS chapter map meta on a single map instance, in terms of player engagement is probably worth like 5-6 full clears. And even those on less popular, older LS maps can usually end up at 1-2 full clears worth. If you add up all the metas on all LS map instancess all over week, i'm quite certain that in mumber of manhours they completely dwarf all raid activity troughout the same week.

    In short: raids are there to keep engaged a very small amount of players. LS is there to keep engaged a majority of the players. The former might be argued about, but i don't see how the latter can ever be called a waste of development.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Raid already rewards you with legendary armor and ring. And, 70+ liquid gold, drops and exclusive currency which you can turn into gold and other ascended armor. If you are bored with that may be its time you take break or do other stuff.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:
    Yea, the 3-5 people who made Raids

    The number we heard was 5-6 people. Working full-time on single wing. At the same time when there were still 2 more wings in production (wings 1-3 were developed pretty much concurrently, from what we heard, development on wing 3 started before wing 1 was finished). And there were also people that were working on raids part-time, in addition to other work (like Maclaine Diemer and his music team, who were working on raid music even though they weren't part of the raid team at all). The number of people involved in raid production was way, way bigger than just those 5-6 people.
    If 3-5 people were truly what raids needed for development, you can bet they would still be as actively developed as in the beginning. But it seems that Anet did eventually agree that they were, indeed, a waste of development resources compared to the gain they brought. Which is why at this moment they are abandoned.

    Fine, 5-6 out of ~300-400 Devs at the time.
    And ofc there was some part time overlap like with music production, but I find it hard to imagine that those departments didn't just mostly hop in when they had time anyway to some extend (likely contributing to various further delays on Raids and such), rather than taking away from other gamemodes etc., it's not like the game is constantly getting updated with new assets, music, etc. since or before Raids were a thing.

    Also Anet abandoning/barely life supporting content and systems isn't really indicative of anything at this point, since clearly they have some severe company management and game vision issues, with there being vastly more content avenues and systems being dead or on life support than actually ones still supported.
    It's not that Dungeons, Raids, PvP, WvW, Fractals for the most part, meaningful Masteries, seemingly now Strikes, Guild Halls, Guild Missions, Bounties and on and on and on all inherently didn't work or "weren't worth it".

    Anet just did as Anet does and on a whim abandons systems and content, chasing something new which they no doubt will abandon next shortly after before ever giving it a real chance with proper funding, development and iterations.
    Then after many months if not years without updates, engagement with that part of the game naturally continuously drops due to lack of new content, excitement and a feeling of having a future in that content to get new people in, and then people go, "ah, yes, see - no one plays it, Anet was right to abandon it", which is just silly.

    Just like barely anyone would care about or play the game for Living World if Anet just released one LW patch every 1-3 years, ofc so barely anyone plays the game for or gets into Raids, Fractal CM's etc., let alone Dungeons, Guild Missions and such, if Anet barely supports it.
    If Anet isn't willing to put anything into Raids, they ofc aren't going to get anything out of it either. That doesn't say anything about Raids itself though.

    There is no doubt in my mind that if Anet had put in the resources to continuously drop a Raid and Fractal every 3-4 months, they would not only be alive and well but actually be a staple of GW2.
    I'm also fairly certain the game would be doing much better financially and population wise if they had focused more on general community building group content like Guild Missions, WvW and possibly even more intricate Bounties, along with things like Fractal and Raids, rather than just the high effort low return ~2h of non-repeatable single player (or "play alone together" OW) content every 3 months, which likely takes more resources than supporting all those abandoned repeatable community building modes combined would have taken.

    It's fairly easily observable that what keeps MMO's healthy longterm is facilitating player connections and communities which then keep each other engaged, rather than some more or less single player Story DLC's now and then, and the more exclusively Anet chased that model (simply bc due to being the most supported aspect of the game it was by far the most populated), in favour of abandoned group content, the more rapidly revenue dropped.
    Hardly seems like a coincidence.

    And btw, I'm not saying LW as a whole was/is a waste or that it instead should have been abandoned, at all. There is some great stuff in there and it absolutely has it's place as easily digestible content and filler for the masses. Putting all eggs into that basket though was imo a grave mistake, and it's no wonder everything else suffered in turn.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    Raids are the wasted hole within PvE that used up way to much time for little use, i rather see Anet turn raids into something more friendly for the majority of the PvE crowd so the time wasted isn't lost completely.

    Lol, most of the player who are in the raid community do each wing every week sinces years (same for pvp/wvw)
    Story ? Most of players only do it once.

    Any gamemode that create link between community by being played for long is what really make a game healty, it's not for nothing if there is big guild of pvp/wvw/raids and silverwaste made such big boom in the gw2 community, since peopel was farming it 24h/24)

    And people only do most of meta event for reward (except really special case) (don't make them less legitime for being played yes, but you can do the worst meta event but that give ton of loot and people will still play it for the loot, opposed to the raid that have a really low reward compared to other things).
    And even if it's on a hold, raids are not throw out of the window for now, we need to wait lws6 or the dlc to get more information on it (after the set of strike is finish).

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Any gamemode that create link between community by being played for long is what really make a game healty, it's not for nothing if there is big guild of pvp/wvw/raids and silverwaste made such big boom in the gw2 community, since peopel was farming it 24h/24)

    And creates a "toxic" cesspool. You can say that your group isn't like that, but mostly? Yeah, it is. If it was most of the playerbase, then obviously i wouldn't be here as the game wasn't made for my tastes, but since it's only a small part of the playerbase, as it is in most games, it really isn't worth the time and effort.

  • Yggranya.5201Yggranya.5201 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    If it's fun, why does it require more rewards? You say you speak for other people, but in that case you should consider telling them to sign in with their own accounts. Would make this more believable.

    just because something is fun means we shouldnt get rewards for it? It is fun yes, but it also requires endgame gear and getting enough gear to raid with different characters/builds is expensive, sure, you can wait for all the correct raid drops to gear the next character you want and only ever buy the gear with magnetite/gaeting. But thats a very slow process and trying out new builds/classes for many people is an integral part of the game not becoming dull for them.
    I really wouldnt want to play a game were i only ever get rewarded for unfun content.

    If you and your friends just want stuff, then it obviously isn't fun. If entertainment isn't what motivates you to play then, well, i don't know what to say...
    Besides, what "endgame gear"? Raiders always say they enjoy it/it's fun while at the same time beg to get more and better rewards, and i'm just disillusioned by all your BS.

  • WindBlade.8749WindBlade.8749 Member ✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Any gamemode that create link between community by being played for long is what really make a game healty, it's not for nothing if there is big guild of pvp/wvw/raids and silverwaste made such big boom in the gw2 community, since peopel was farming it 24h/24)

    And creates a "toxic" cesspool. You can say that your group isn't like that, but mostly? Yeah, it is. If it was most of the playerbase, then obviously i wouldn't be here as the game wasn't made for my tastes, but since it's only a small part of the playerbase, as it is in most games, it really isn't worth the time and effort.

    toxic definition : very harmful or unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way.
    Hum i rarely see that in raid, maybe sometime in wvw/pvp but rarely in pve HL.

    Btw openworld is way more toxic than you think, just see the chat after a failed meta event. Ofc it's happend less since some people are carying all the work.> @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    If it's fun, why does it require more rewards? You say you speak for other people, but in that case you should consider telling them to sign in with their own accounts. Would make this more believable.

    just because something is fun means we shouldnt get rewards for it? It is fun yes, but it also requires endgame gear and getting enough gear to raid with different characters/builds is expensive, sure, you can wait for all the correct raid drops to gear the next character you want and only ever buy the gear with magnetite/gaeting. But thats a very slow process and trying out new builds/classes for many people is an integral part of the game not becoming dull for them.
    I really wouldnt want to play a game were i only ever get rewarded for unfun content.

    If you and your friends just want stuff, then it obviously isn't fun. If entertainment isn't what motivates you to play then, well, i don't know what to say...
    Besides, what "endgame gear"? Raiders always say they enjoy it/it's fun while at the same time beg to get more and better rewards, and i'm just disillusioned by all your BS.

    If you love a gamemode, but the gamemode reward are not that great compared to the others, even if you still play it without any change you will still ask for more reward sometime, specialy since raids are way harder than openworld

    For the reward track itself, it's will be a good idea, the cm rewards are a joke honestly for the time spend on it and the fact you can't farm it (opposed to any meta event).
    Guess that even if it's implemented ti's will be a simple thing like dungeon one but i'm fine with it.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Any gamemode that create link between community by being played for long is what really make a game healty, it's not for nothing if there is big guild of pvp/wvw/raids and silverwaste made such big boom in the gw2 community, since peopel was farming it 24h/24)

    And creates a "toxic" cesspool. You can say that your group isn't like that, but mostly? Yeah, it is. If it was most of the playerbase, then obviously i wouldn't be here as the game wasn't made for my tastes, but since it's only a small part of the playerbase, as it is in most games, it really isn't worth the time and effort.

    Each gamemode generates toxicity.
    Meta-event fails or doesn't work the way people want it to? Toxic chat!
    Story content is not the way some people like it. Too hard, too complicated? Toxic forum posts.
    Lion's Arch is often a celebration of toxicity xD.

    Sorry, but what is the meaning of that. It is not the gamemode that creates Toxic People.
    Because in the end everybody attracts what he wants.

    I have experienced btw in my 4-5 years GW2 more toxic behavior in meta-events than in the years I have raided weekly ^^. Among them also often with PUG's.
    And I got to know some great people. The people who were toxic in the end were not the people who wanted to invest in raids because they enjoy it. But the casuals who just wanted to have a look and it wasn't what they were used to. But such things were ignored and kicked. Very simple.

  • Fuchslein.8639Fuchslein.8639 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @Yggranya.5201 said:
    If it's fun, why does it require more rewards? You say you speak for other people, but in that case you should consider telling them to sign in with their own accounts. Would make this more believable.

    just because something is fun means we shouldnt get rewards for it? It is fun yes, but it also requires endgame gear and getting enough gear to raid with different characters/builds is expensive, sure, you can wait for all the correct raid drops to gear the next character you want and only ever buy the gear with magnetite/gaeting. But thats a very slow process and trying out new builds/classes for many people is an integral part of the game not becoming dull for them.
    I really wouldnt want to play a game were i only ever get rewarded for unfun content.

    If you and your friends just want stuff, then it obviously isn't fun. If entertainment isn't what motivates you to play then, well, i don't know what to say...
    Besides, what "endgame gear"? Raiders always say they enjoy it/it's fun while at the same time beg to get more and better rewards, and i'm just disillusioned by all your BS.

    Okay, let's just cut the whole loot in half in the OpenWorld.Let's see how people find this :D.
    Oh and do not forget. Let's ask anet to set it so that you only get each loot once a week.

  • Mayga.7241Mayga.7241 Member ✭✭
    edited November 3, 2020

    @Tom.1852 said:

    Maybe they assume the average raid player gets their clear and then farms daily fracs and open world events for the rest of the week?

    Yes. I get my full clear at monday and get my full clear (alt acc) at tuesday. That's enough for me in a week, coz I have many other things to do in game. Daily fractals, yes. Open world events, yes. Achi, yes. PvP and WwW? Sure. Why not? There is alot of fun content. GW2 is not only about raids. This is a huge world with alot activity, you know it?

    If you want more raids with loot - get more alt accounts.
    And stop saying "WE NEED" with caps on behalf of few people.

    @Tom.1852 said:

    And i think we deserve more, some people probably do 3-4 Full Clears a week, and by experience, those people will slowly get burned out, maybe they even make less gold from raids than they spend because they are sitting around with expensive food on 24/7, and that just feels unfair.

    Why are they sitting around with food on 24/7? It looks so strange. I use food only in raids. Everyone I know does the same. Because even 3-4 fc takes several hours. Or you just sitting there at the LA aerodrome with your "expensive food on 24/7" and "slowly get burned out"? So you dont need raids 24/7 - you just need endless food tonic or something :D

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020

    Raids could be reworked to function like open world bosses . But atm raids looks like it will go the same way as dungeons

  • @Mayga.7241 said:
    Yes. I get my full clear at monday and get my full clear (alt acc) at tuesday. That's enough for me in a week, coz I have many other things to do in game. Daily fractals, yes. Open world events, yes. Achi, yes. PvP and WwW? Sure. Why not? There is alot of fun content. GW2 is not only about raids. This is a huge world with alot activity, you know it?

    >

    Very happy that all this content is fun to you, so youre saying the solution for the people i play with is to just stop playing whats fun for them with no rewards beyond the first clear each week and play gamemodes they dont enjoy, how could i have not considered that. such an easy fix thanks.

    Also you should try skydiving, professional racing, collecting antique furniture and hunting elks, it is a big world with alot to do, you know it?

    @Mayga.7241 said:
    Why are they sitting around with food on 24/7? It looks so strange. I use food only in raids. Everyone I know does the same. Because even 3-4 fc takes several hours. Or you just sitting there at the LA aerodrome with your "expensive food on 24/7" and "slowly get burned out"? So you dont need raids 24/7 - you just need endless food tonic or something :D

    >

    probably because they only raid? Sometimes you join pugs for one boss kill, you leave and you look for the next pug to join? Theres also alot of downtime in raids when people leave quickly and its takes a while to find the rest

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    Raids could be reworked to function like open world bosses . But atm raids looks like it will go the same way as dungeons

    What even would be the point of that change?

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 4, 2020

    @Yggranya.5201 said:

    @WindBlade.8749 said:
    Any gamemode that create link between community by being played for long is what really make a game healty, it's not for nothing if there is big guild of pvp/wvw/raids and silverwaste made such big boom in the gw2 community, since peopel was farming it 24h/24)

    And creates a "toxic" cesspool. You can say that your group isn't like that, but mostly? Yeah, it is. If it was most of the playerbase, then obviously i wouldn't be here as the game wasn't made for my tastes, but since it's only a small part of the playerbase, as it is in most games, it really isn't worth the time and effort.

    Nah, you can say that it's "mostly like this", but it's not. It's just that it seems casual players are less likely to create their own squads and expect other players to fill in their content niche (or however we'd want to label it), then they complain that in lfg there are only tryhards and high req squads. You want a squad with your type of players and your requirements (or lack of them)? Then make your squad with appropriate description and people will join without you having to deal with tryhards or that "toxic cesspool".

    And if I understand the context correctly, you're complaining about the replayable/farmable/grindable content... in mmorpg? That doesn't make much sense.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2020

    @Tom.1852 said:

    @lokh.2695 said:
    Nah, Raid rewards are fine. I'd rather have them rework WvW or something else.

    Also: "WE NEED" usually translates to "I want", keep in mind to speak for yourself.

    I am speaking for about all the people i raid with. So i went with "WE NEED". Good that you think the rewards are okay, but it does seem like you didnt read fully until the end. It might be that for people that log on 2 days per week, clear all the raids and dont play anymore until next Monday the rewards appear good. But i am talking about people that log on every evening and just raid, even though they have gotten their weekly. Those rewards are abysmal, and the main issue is, you CANNOT get trans charges, you CANNOT get living world currency playing raids only.

    Doesn't really matter who you speak for, it's not a need, it's a want. I mean, it's arguable PVE content needs reward tracks because those reward tracks were intended for non-PVE content for reasons not applicable to PVE to begin with. Raid reward tracks defeat the whole reason you have raid lock outs in the first place ... so the idea isn't well conceived or in line with the content.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    Of course raids will go down the same route as dungeons. This much should be obvious to anyone. ArenaNet decided to forgo further work on new content similarly to how they decided to give up on dungeons in the past. There will be nobody left playing raids other than a bunch of newbies wanting to but ultimately unable to acquire those exclusive rewards, again, just like with dungeons. ArenaNet might eventually give in to the complaints and make those rewards less exclusive or turn raids into some soloable thing. Well, maybe in a few years after raids have fully died.

    The raiding environment has been changing for a long time now. There are less statics and veterans by the day. People talk about how now we can focus on content for everyone. Who is that "everyone" we are talking about? There is no content that works for everyone.
    What do the raid veterans move on to? Fractals? Most of them lost interest in Fractals long before they stopped playing raids. Open World or Strikes? Good joke. PvP and WvW? Some might if they play PvP modes, lots of people don't. Most of these players simply quit the game.
    I am not trying to sound whiny here. Choices need to be made and some players will always be left behind no matter what they do. They probably decided to refocus on more profitable parts of the game. We shall see how things turn out.

    Short version: No amount of reward changes will ever fix the issues caused by a severe lack of new content in PvE.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tom.1852 said:
    What I am suggesting is, Raid Reward tracks

    I think it is a good idea to add a "raid reward track" to the existing reward tracks in PvP/WvW, so PvP/WvW players can choose this reward track to get raid rewards.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tom.1852 said:
    It is fun yes, but it also requires endgame gear and getting enough gear to raid with different characters/builds is expensive, sure, you can wait for all the correct raid drops to gear the next character you want and only ever buy the gear with magnetite/gaeting. But thats a very slow process and trying out new builds/classes for many people is an integral part of the game not becoming dull for them.

    I am not against increasing the rewards in-game, but you can start raiding with exotic gear and if you raid regularly, you have one of the best in-game sources of ascended gear (and some legendary gear). If you call that "a very slow process" I guess you have not played the other parts of GW2 a lot.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Short version: No amount of reward changes will ever fix the issues caused by a severe lack of new content in PvE.

    This. Have to agree with @Henry.5713 here.

    Now don't get me wrong, increasing rewards might stem the flow somewhat, because rewards are a type of encouragement. It won't fix the underlying issue though of content being abandoned. The raiders I know fall in different categories from completely new, to noobish, to semi experienced with most wings on PUG level clear, to slightly below SC speed clear static, all the way to sell static players who full clear multiple time and raid 6 days per week.

    Most of those players would be happy about more rewards, but none of them are raiding because of rewards. Most are doing it in semi statics or their guilds for fun. Basically this is the content most enjoy to do together with others or to excel at. Increasing rewards would be great, but it won't stop players from leaving if they get bored.

    Increasing rewards for raids achieves only so much, most of it being enticing new players who do not want to raid to feel pressured to raid. It's not something veterans need. Veteran raiders need content or at the very least more regular meta shakeups so that existing content does not grow stale (this is a double edged sword because just as it can make content more interesting to some, others just leave because having to relearn new classes for content you have cleared thousands of times is not fun to them).

    Anything else will just make this content end up like dungeons. A few static groups running the content over and over, the community shrinking into non existence, and guilds occasionally running some of the easier fights. Maybe with an uptick of players when the legendary armor drops for the remaining few who want PvE armor, but this one is far off and unknown (and adding legendary armor to PvP and WvW hardly helped).