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The Icebrood Saga: Champions Chapter 1 Trailer

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  • firedragon.8953firedragon.8953 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2020

    I also hope the fire dragon does not meet his end during Icebrood Saga.

    I am guessing the writers have went with us choosing the "lesser of two evils" to destroy a greater threat.
    However, we still really do not know how that will play out. We already could pretty much predict that a character such as Jormag would work to persuade us not to kill it, so I hardly think the trailer was too "revealing" as some of the community is claiming. I haven't even begun playing the Icebrood Saga and it wasn't very shocking to me based on previous trailers, etc. I hope the writers will not go for such a straight arrow approach to the narrative.

    All we know is the fire dragon is coming. We fear the fire dragon and the ice dragon is tempting us and manipulating us with that fear. Even if we join Jormag, we may fail, and even with all our efforts the fire dragon wins. A final fight (or other end) is as equally probable between fire and water if we are still running along the lines of thinking regarding opposite elements cancel each other out. As far as I know, both the fire and the water dragon are the two actual element based dragons (no other "human-like" characteristics, fury, persuasion, death, etc.).

    As others have mentioned, the norn are unlikely to be okay with "forgiving" Jormag as well. Maybe Braham and other norn just go ahead and kills him anyway. It's not like norn are not known for their strong will and "independence". The last chapter is titled "Judgement" and I have a feeling that this involves someone making a last minute choice and "calamity". It is even more interesting when it comes after the chapter called "Balance" and...well...obviously "balance" didn't work since there is "judgement".

    I'm excited to see how this unfolds. I really liked the LWS4 story, and was amazed by a lot of it. I have seen what potential Anet is capable of. Like most stories, not everyone will like them, but I am ready! I just want some legendary level norn action going. For the spirits! Is this not the Tyrian/norn version of Ragnarok? The great trickster (Jormag), a monstrous beast the sets the world aflame (Primordus), a great sea serpent rising from the depths (Bubbles), etc. etc.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm very curious how this is going to play out too.

    4 more episodes of IBS.. and now Primordus is coming in?
    I have to say, if episode 4 ends with the death of Primordus I am going to be seriously, seriously!! disappointed no matter how they do it.
    Primordus was setup all the way back in Gw1.. was teased in LW3 and has been one of the most inactive yet hyped Dragons in the game.
    4 Episodes to build him up and take him down is absolutely unacceptable and I expect people are going to be mad as kitten if that happens XD

    Your statement's a bit contradictive here. You say he's been set up since Eye of the North, yet say there will only be four episodes to build him up and take him down? :tongue:

    Yeah man I know, I was pretty tired when I wrote that and wasn't thinking as much as I should have been XD

    What I mean is, He is like thee! original big bad Elder Dragon that's been teased since Eye of the North but in Gw2 has had almost no real buildup outside of a few teaser moments in S3 (as you said) to be the big bad antagonist some people want him to be.
    We had a whole season building up Kralkatorrik to his death, a campaign to build up and kill Zhaitan and a whole living world and expansion to build up and kill Mordremoth and mostly the same for Balthazar too.

    Half a season.. 4 episodes, just doesn't feel like enough to do them justice.
    Primordus for some people is the one dragon they really wanted to have that big war with more than others, I think they all deserve their moment in the spotlight so I don't want any to feel rushed by killing them off too quickly.

    Personally, I won't mind, in part because I predicted this outcome. Primordus will die in either Episode 8 or, if Jormag will be killed too, in Episode 7. Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I can see a scenario where those two die but I really hope they don't xD

    Out of all the scenarios I can think of I'm really hoping for a Primordus vs Aurine, the Commander & Jormag and the Icebrood situation.
    And im hoping it ends with Primordus and Aurine injured and Jormag very dead.. that would be a big holy kitten moment for Primordus XD
    He could then flee and tunnel his way to Cantha so he can recover from the battle and end up kittening off the sea dragon in the process triggering the events of End of Dragons where both of them and in a possible twist even Aurine too will be destroyed.

    But im right there with you on the whole Dragon's need replacements, if they kittencan that concept I'll be disappointed as well.

    Of course, I'm very doubtful that Jormag will meet their end this season. Primordus dying... I can see it. Unless we manage to put it to sleep again instead.

    I think Jormag would be the best one too kill off if any, we've had a decent buildup in the IBS so far so if any of them are primed to kick the bucket I'd say Jormag is most ready to go.
    But if they both survive i'll be fine with it, could mean a big 4 way battle in End of Dragons which would be pretty epic but I doubt they'll go down that road.

    But my question is the same question from the beginning of this season: how are we to deal with an Elder Dragon, without a scion to replace them?

    With you there man, outside of Kuunavang and maybe Albax too I really don't know of any other beings that could replace an Elder Dragon.
    Maybe the Pale Tree could be another candidate but I dunno, Anet has given very little thus far to really make many theories on it.. least it's not enough for me to do so lol

    And to the notion of "four episodes isn't enough" - remember, Kralkatorrik got three! Season 4 Episodes 1-3 were all about Joko, and PoF was about Balthazar. Kralkatorrik's minions played cameo (to a degree), but Kralkatorrik wasn't the focus until Season 4 Episode 4. Just as Primordus' minions got cameo (via Forged Steel) and doesn't become a focus until Episode 5 of 8.

    Technically i'd say he got 4 episodes (i'm including the brandstorm attack on Amnoon as well in Daybreak).
    But he was a constant present threat through the whole season and he did have that big face to face moment at the end of PoF too and he was tied into the PoF story with Balthazar as well so overall i'd say he had a pretty big amount of buildup before we took him down, maybe not as much as Mordremoth and not quite as single mindedly focused but still quite a bit.

    What little we've had of Primordus has been stretched out and dripped in over a long period of time and the last time we saw anything from him he basically got reset back to factory settings lol
    Him awakening again now is kinda all new again if you know what I mean.
    It's like finally Primordus is in the spotlight!! lol

    I really want to see this Dragon just decimate everything.. im talking brand scar like destruction as he just lays waste to everything like a living firestorm.
    He deserves that much lol

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    None of the Elder Dragons' goals are "eat magic until they fall asleep, then wake up and do it again". That's just the result of six Elder Dragons trying to gorge themselves on magic, and the ignorant masses believed that to be their goal. But each Elder Dragon has their own goal - Kralkatorrik's goal, for example, was to literally consume and destroy all things because "torment promised that will end the pain".

    Jormag's ultimate goal is not 100% clear, but the best indication has been "to preserve Tyria". To that end, Jormag is willing to change its ways (or so it claims), and might have been the only Elder Dragon willing to go to sleep while the others struggled to get every scrap of magic they could to remain awake.

    Good point.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Aurene is the dragon of Fury/Crystal and likely a bunch of Shadow and maybe a little Mind.

    Aurene is the dragon of light.

    Light is not a discrete domain like Ice, Persuasion, Fire, Conflagration, etc.

    When Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik she absorbed Fury and Crystal, along with what he received from the deaths of Zhaitan/Mordremoth/Balthazar (parts of Death/Shadow, Plant/Mind, and War). She also got something from eating Joko.

    This is why Jormag calls her the dragon of prisms. She is a crystal dragon with several domains filtering through her like light.

    She has way more powers than being a walking rainbow. It just happens in this case that light is also a common thread among three or more of the domains she has. Crystal, Fury (which contains Sun), and Shadow. Maybe Plant because bioluminescence

    There is zero indication that Aurene has taken the mantle of death, shadow, or mind - and Balthazar was no longer a god, so she couldn't take on war. Joko was no cosmic being, and had nothing to give beyond a dues ex machina. It's not yet established what Aurene did with the non-Crystal magic that Kralkatorrik absorbed, but Jormag did get a powerboost from Kralkatorrik's death. The only non-Crystal power Aurene shows having, is Plant, but this could have been from when Mordremoth died, rather than when Kralkatorrik died given that her corruption of Caithe resulted in "crystal blooms". Hard to tell.

    Prism, btw, is a type of crystal. And Kralkatorrik's "Fury" appears by all rights to have been sky and storm-related (sun, wind, lightning, clouds), which includes forms of light (sunlight, lightning).

    Prism and Light is just a synonym to Crystal and Fury, much like how Abaddon was god of secrets, while Kormir is goddess of truth. Both deal with the same domain - knowledge - but in different ways. Prisms and Light are "brighter versions" of Crystal and Fury/storms domains.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Aurene can ressurect the dead, create hive minds, summon crystals, etc.

    You say this, but literally nothing in the game shows or tells this.

    Kralkatorrik could. And Aurene replaced him. Though you seem to be insinuating that all of the extra stuff Kralk had just leaked out and Aurene only got Fury/Light and Crystal/Prism

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    illusions from Mind.

    The Mind domain actually doesn't deal with illusions - at least, Mordremoth had never used illusions, and neither did Kralkatorrik. Instead, Mind has only been utilized for mass telepathy, shared cognizance, and body hopping. Zhaitan has been the only Elder Dragon to use illusions, so it likely relates to Shadow.

    Fair.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    End of Dragons is plural. So unless the sea dragon is a hydra and counts as two. There is going to more than one dragon left after this arc is over.

    The title is very clearly referring to the cycle of six Elder Dragons ending, and not meant to be the end of two+ specific dragons.

    Things can refer to multiple things. Path of Fire ended up referring to Ascension and to Balthazar.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm very curious how this is going to play out too.

    4 more episodes of IBS.. and now Primordus is coming in?
    I have to say, if episode 4 ends with the death of Primordus I am going to be seriously, seriously!! disappointed no matter how they do it.
    Primordus was setup all the way back in Gw1.. was teased in LW3 and has been one of the most inactive yet hyped Dragons in the game.
    4 Episodes to build him up and take him down is absolutely unacceptable and I expect people are going to be mad as kitten if that happens XD

    Your statement's a bit contradictive here. You say he's been set up since Eye of the North, yet say there will only be four episodes to build him up and take him down? :tongue:

    Yeah man I know, I was pretty tired when I wrote that and wasn't thinking as much as I should have been XD

    What I mean is, He is like thee! original big bad Elder Dragon that's been teased since Eye of the North but in Gw2 has had almost no real buildup outside of a few teaser moments in S3 (as you said) to be the big bad antagonist some people want him to be.
    We had a whole season building up Kralkatorrik to his death, a campaign to build up and kill Zhaitan and a whole living world and expansion to build up and kill Mordremoth and mostly the same for Balthazar too.

    Half a season.. 4 episodes, just doesn't feel like enough to do them justice.
    Primordus for some people is the one dragon they really wanted to have that big war with more than others, I think they all deserve their moment in the spotlight so I don't want any to feel rushed by killing them off too quickly.

    Personally, I won't mind, in part because I predicted this outcome. Primordus will die in either Episode 8 or, if Jormag will be killed too, in Episode 7. Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I can see a scenario where those two die but I really hope they don't xD

    Out of all the scenarios I can think of I'm really hoping for a Primordus vs Aurine, the Commander & Jormag and the Icebrood situation.
    And im hoping it ends with Primordus and Aurine injured and Jormag very dead.. that would be a big holy kitten moment for Primordus XD
    He could then flee and tunnel his way to Cantha so he can recover from the battle and end up kittening off the sea dragon in the process triggering the events of End of Dragons where both of them and in a possible twist even Aurine too will be destroyed.

    But im right there with you on the whole Dragon's need replacements, if they kittencan that concept I'll be disappointed as well.

    Of course, I'm very doubtful that Jormag will meet their end this season. Primordus dying... I can see it. Unless we manage to put it to sleep again instead.

    I think Jormag would be the best one too kill off if any, we've had a decent buildup in the IBS so far so if any of them are primed to kick the bucket I'd say Jormag is most ready to go.
    But if they both survive i'll be fine with it, could mean a big 4 way battle in End of Dragons which would be pretty epic but I doubt they'll go down that road.

    But my question is the same question from the beginning of this season: how are we to deal with an Elder Dragon, without a scion to replace them?

    With you there man, outside of Kuunavang and maybe Albax too I really don't know of any other beings that could replace an Elder Dragon.
    Maybe the Pale Tree could be another candidate but I dunno, Anet has given very little thus far to really make many theories on it.. least it's not enough for me to do so lol

    And to the notion of "four episodes isn't enough" - remember, Kralkatorrik got three! Season 4 Episodes 1-3 were all about Joko, and PoF was about Balthazar. Kralkatorrik's minions played cameo (to a degree), but Kralkatorrik wasn't the focus until Season 4 Episode 4. Just as Primordus' minions got cameo (via Forged Steel) and doesn't become a focus until Episode 5 of 8.

    Technically i'd say he got 4 episodes (i'm including the brandstorm attack on Amnoon as well in Daybreak).
    But he was a constant present threat through the whole season and he did have that big face to face moment at the end of PoF too and he was tied into the PoF story with Balthazar as well so overall i'd say he had a pretty big amount of buildup before we took him down, maybe not as much as Mordremoth and not quite as single mindedly focused but still quite a bit.

    What little we've had of Primordus has been stretched out and dripped in over a long period of time and the last time we saw anything from him he basically got reset back to factory settings lol
    Him awakening again now is kinda all new again if you know what I mean.
    It's like finally Primordus is in the spotlight!! lol

    I really want to see this Dragon just decimate everything.. im talking brand scar like destruction as he just lays waste to everything like a living firestorm.
    He deserves that much lol

    I’m wondering if the outcome will be Jormag gets killed by Primordus, Primordus escapes underground again and Aurene absorbs the left over magic, however it makes her sick or causes other problems, which allows us to go to Cantha. Aurene could also give us a vision or use the eye of the north to show us Cantha as a spot where we can solve Aurene’s issue.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m wondering if the outcome will be Jormag gets killed by Primordus, Primordus escapes underground again and Aurene absorbs the left over magic, however it makes her sick or causes other problems, which allows us to go to Cantha. Aurene could also give us a vision or use the eye of the north to show us Cantha as a spot where we can solve Aurene’s issue.

    I'm wondering something else. The EoD logo shows two dragons, one under water, and another above the water. I know a lot of people speculated this was Bubbles, and perhaps Kuunavang, but what if its actually Bubbles and Primordus?

    Jormag dies, either we kill it, or Primordus does. Primordus takes most of its power, then flies off to Cantha to kill Bubbles to take its power. So we have to go to Cantha to stop it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m wondering if the outcome will be Jormag gets killed by Primordus, Primordus escapes underground again and Aurene absorbs the left over magic, however it makes her sick or causes other problems, which allows us to go to Cantha. Aurene could also give us a vision or use the eye of the north to show us Cantha as a spot where we can solve Aurene’s issue.

    I'm wondering something else. The EoD logo shows two dragons, one under water, and another above the water. I know a lot of people speculated this was Bubbles, and perhaps Kuunavang, but what if its actually Bubbles and Primordus?

    Jormag dies, either we kill it, or Primordus does. Primordus takes most of its power, then flies off to Cantha to kill Bubbles to take its power. So we have to go to Cantha to stop it.

    Definitely possible and could still leave Primordus as the first and final dragon, especially since we have been dealing with this dragon in some way shape or form since GW1, as well sprinkled in the personal story, lots of S3, little bit of PoF and IBS.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Definitely possible and could still leave Primordus as the first and final dragon, especially since we have been dealing with this dragon in some way shape or form since GW1, as well sprinkled in the personal story, lots of S3, little bit of PoF and IBS.

    I also think this might be the case because we didn't see any new destroyer types in the trailer.

    When we actually go to "fight" a dragon seriously, Anet has always expanded the enemy roster for the dragons in those arcs. The fact that we only see already existing destroyer types in the Chapter 1 trailer, and even in the "future releases" segment, suggests this whole Primrodus thing may be a distraction in the Icebrood Saga.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 8, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m wondering if the outcome will be Jormag gets killed by Primordus, Primordus escapes underground again and Aurene absorbs the left over magic, however it makes her sick or causes other problems, which allows us to go to Cantha. Aurene could also give us a vision or use the eye of the north to show us Cantha as a spot where we can solve Aurene’s issue.

    I'm wondering something else. The EoD logo shows two dragons, one under water, and another above the water. I know a lot of people speculated this was Bubbles, and perhaps Kuunavang, but what if its actually Bubbles and Primordus?

    Jormag dies, either we kill it, or Primordus does. Primordus takes most of its power, then flies off to Cantha to kill Bubbles to take its power. So we have to go to Cantha to stop it.

    It would fit the logo tradition.

    I've brought it up a few times but in every expansion release the new Logo features an Elder Dragon who is important to the story of that expansion.
    End of Dragons will be the first one to feature 2 dragons.. one resembling a tidal wave which is why so many are convinced it represents the sea dragon.
    The other Dragon could be Primordus.. and the two of them representing a dragon coming over the land in a tsunami and another coming up from below the ground like Primordus would do.

    It could also be Aurine or even Jormag and represent one dragon being drowned as others have pointed out before, Aurine could also add Good vs Evil factor to it too but i'm not so convinced on those ones anymore.
    Primordus actually does make more sense when you factor in the duelism yin yang symbolism of it.
    Fire and Water are also opposites much like Fire and Ice are, something else i've brought up in the past as well.
    There's also another element duo in place regarding these two Dragons as well.. Land and Sea.. or Earth and Water both being essential for life but forever at odds since the more there is of one the less there can be of the other.

    Edit: addition
    (That kind of leans into my theory too on what the agenda is of the remaining Dragons as well, I think it's power.
    Each Dragon has sensed the change in the world, every one of them has tasted the power of those that have fallen and I think that all of them now want to be the only Elder Dragon left to make the world in their image.. what else is there to explain why Jormag wants to kill Primordus so badly and why now when they had years to duke it out when both were fully awake.
    Jormag from what I gather from our conversations with it wants to make a world covered in ice.. wants to freeze everything in time and "protect it"
    Sea Dragon, unknown but I assume would want to drown as much of the world as it can.. maybe all of it if it could melt the northen and southen most ice regions.
    Primordus I expect just wants to literally watch the world burn.
    Mordremoth wanted to become the world.
    And Kralktorrik wanted to consume and end everything.
    As for Aurine.. well she just wants to break the wheel as it were.. end the cycle which she'll never really be able to do so long as the other Dragons are alive, much the same goes for them as well.. for any one dragon to become the one absolute power in the world the others need to die.)

    Primordus is a dragon of fire, this much we all know but he is also the only Dragon that prefers to live deep in the ground and travel around by tunnelling which kind of makes him able to take on the role of a Dragon that represents land, specially since Volcanos are the things that create new land and Primordus has a lot in common with them as well.

    Sea Dragon so far as we know lives exclusively underwater and swims.
    Kralkatorrik and Zhaitan were airborne
    Jormag.. as far as I know hasn't been fully revealed yet so whether it has wings or not isn't confirmed.
    I expect it to be more of a serpent form, a lindwurm design most likely and it's main mode of transportation being walking across the land and swimming through ice much like Drakkar was able to do.
    Mordremoth did live underground much like Primordus but he was immobile and could only move as far away from the Heart of Thorns as the length of his physical body would allow him to, His vines could tunnel but the Dragon itself was immobile.
    So Primordus remains the only one that is a mobile subterranean Elder Dragon.. thus he can be in a way regarded as a Dragon that represents Land as well as Fire of course.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag.. as far as I know hasn't been fully revealed yet so whether it has wings or not isn't confirmed.
    I expect it to be more of a serpent form, a lindwurm design most likely and it's main mode of transportation being walking across the land and swimming through ice much like Drakkar was able to do.

    You might be right. The render pulled from Jormag rising certainly has an interesting shape, but of course this probably isn't finalized so expect heavy redesigns between episodes: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Jormag_render_(Jormag_Rising).jpg

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Definitely possible and could still leave Primordus as the first and final dragon, especially since we have been dealing with this dragon in some way shape or form since GW1, as well sprinkled in the personal story, lots of S3, little bit of PoF and IBS.

    I also think this might be the case because we didn't see any new destroyer types in the trailer.

    When we actually go to "fight" a dragon seriously, Anet has always expanded the enemy roster for the dragons in those arcs. The fact that we only see already existing destroyer types in the Chapter 1 trailer, and even in the "future releases" segment, suggests this whole Primrodus thing may be a distraction in the Icebrood Saga.

    I think a lot of the variety of destroyers will come from the different dragon magics, I expect to eventually see crystal touched destroyers, and maybe Ice touched if it’s possible. Given that Primordus can make a vine variety, shouldn’t be an issue unless he can’t because it’s his weakness, though we did see Mordremoth using death magic, so who knows.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag.. as far as I know hasn't been fully revealed yet so whether it has wings or not isn't confirmed.
    I expect it to be more of a serpent form, a lindwurm design most likely and it's main mode of transportation being walking across the land and swimming through ice much like Drakkar was able to do.

    You might be right. The render pulled from Jormag rising certainly has an interesting shape, but of course this probably isn't finalized so expect heavy redesigns between episodes: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Jormag_render_(Jormag_Rising).jpg

    I think i've seen that before, not 100% sure.. might have been Konig or Randulf who shared it in one of their replies to me..
    I can't remember though, my stupid memory is beyond awful and failing me right now >.<

    Only 9 more days before I can finally start playing that content, I'm really hyped to fill in all those blanks and see Jormag for myself in game :D

    I do hope they go with a Lindwurm design, Jormag being a snake like dragon would fit in so well with it's manipulative and deceptive personality traits.
    For some reason i'd also like to hear Braham call it a Snake! in a derogatory way in a future confrontation lol

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We had a whole season building up Kralkatorrik to his death, a campaign to build up and kill Zhaitan and a whole living world and expansion to build up and kill Mordremoth and mostly the same for Balthazar too.

    I would 100% disagree about Kralkatorrik. Season 4 Episode 3 had completely nothing related to Kralkatorrik, and the relation in Episode 2 was minimal - just Inquest experiments. So that would be, at absolute most in argument, basically 4 episodes focused on Kralkatorrik. Personally, I wouldn't include Episode 2 because of how bare bones the branded threat was in that - I'd be more inclined to say 3.5 episodes and 1/4th of an expansion.

    Compared to pretty much two full episodes in Season 3, and four episodes in Seaosn 5. Kralkatorrik and Primordus are pretty on par.

    And both Kralkatorrik and Primordus are the most animalistic. So less screentime works, especially since unlike Zhaitan, their minions don't speak. There's not much interaction to be had with Primordus and his destroyers - just voiceless killers to fight back and fight through. Not much of an interesting plot, in all honesty.

    The interesting part of the plot will come in the allies and getting them to join, not in confronting the destroyers. Much like in Eye of the North. Because there simply will be nothing but "fight back the destroyers, don't let them kill everyone!" over and over and over again.

    There will be no destroyer menacingly saying "So this is the Pact Commander. I am not impressed." There will only be destroyers saying "(terrifying otherworldly howl)"

    There just simply cannot be good build-up for Primordus other than a repeat of what we got in Season 3 and Eye of the North. Unless, "somehow, destroyers can talk."

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Aurene can ressurect the dead, create hive minds, summon crystals, etc.

    You say this, but literally nothing in the game shows or tells this.

    Kralkatorrik could. And Aurene replaced him. Though you seem to be insinuating that all of the extra stuff Kralk had just leaked out and Aurene only got Fury/Light and Crystal/Prism

    Kralkatorrik could do that only because he had Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic. But as I established already: we have zero confirmation on what Aurene did with the three facets of foreign magic inside Kralkatorrik.

    Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik by consuming Kralkatorrik's domain. And we know thanks to Episode 2 of IBS that Jormag got a powerboost from Kralkatorrik - so we have confirmation that Aurene didn't consume all of Kralkatorrik's magic. Specifically, Jormag's powerboost includes Balthazar's magic, heavily hinting that when Aurene - to quote Descent objectives - "Sever the threads of magic" when destroying the facets (visually, she branded the facets, expelling crystal to cover them, rather than consumed them), she did not consume them.

    So yes, I am indeed insinuating that - until proven otherwise - Aurene only got Crystal/Prism and Fury/Light.

    While Aurene does have a show of plants in her branding, this was present before becoming an Elder Dragon - though less planty - suggesting that this comes from when Mordremoth died, rather than when Kralkatorrik died.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    End of Dragons is plural. So unless the sea dragon is a hydra and counts as two. There is going to more than one dragon left after this arc is over.

    The title is very clearly referring to the cycle of six Elder Dragons ending, and not meant to be the end of two+ specific dragons.

    Things can refer to multiple things. Path of Fire ended up referring to Ascension and to Balthazar.

    It didn't refer to Ascension at all. It only referred to the path Balthazar was taking as he blazed through the Crystal Desert and Elona en route to Kralkatorrik.

    Same with Heart of Thorns, specifically referring to the Blighting Tree that Mordremoth was rooted to, the Heart of Thorns. Nightfall referred solely to the prophecy that was uncovering; Factions to the Kurzick/Luxon factions of Cantha; Eye of the North to that; War in Krtya to the civil war; etc. etc. All the names given to expansions and releases are seldom - if ever - double entendres.

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’m wondering if the outcome will be Jormag gets killed by Primordus, Primordus escapes underground again and Aurene absorbs the left over magic, however it makes her sick or causes other problems, which allows us to go to Cantha. Aurene could also give us a vision or use the eye of the north to show us Cantha as a spot where we can solve Aurene’s issue.

    Based on all the concept art from the stream constantly having that same hue effect with bubbles, people are thinking that we'll be led to go to Cantha via a vision from the Scrying Pool. Reason for vision unclear, but best bet atm is "search for scions" unless ANet drops that plot by doing something like "Aurene absorbs the leftover magic" (since that would imbalance The All unless someone off-screen replaced Mordremoth or Zhaitan).

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    I'm wondering something else. The EoD logo shows two dragons, one under water, and another above the water. I know a lot of people speculated this was Bubbles, and perhaps Kuunavang, but what if its actually Bubbles and Primordus?

    Jormag dies, either we kill it, or Primordus does. Primordus takes most of its power, then flies off to Cantha to kill Bubbles to take its power. So we have to go to Cantha to stop it.

    That would require them ignoring the entire purpose of S3, PoF, and S4 and why we fought Balthazar. I really, really hope they don't pull that.

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Jormag.. as far as I know hasn't been fully revealed yet so whether it has wings or not isn't confirmed.
    I expect it to be more of a serpent form, a lindwurm design most likely and it's main mode of transportation being walking across the land and swimming through ice much like Drakkar was able to do.

    You might be right. The render pulled from Jormag rising certainly has an interesting shape, but of course this probably isn't finalized so expect heavy redesigns between episodes: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Jormag_render_(Jormag_Rising).jpg

    If they stay true to the norn intro cinematic, and the Sons of Svanir logo, then it'll have wings and forearms - but that might be it in terms of limbs.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That would require them ignoring the entire purpose of S3, PoF, and S4 and why we fought Balthazar. I really, really hope they don't pull that.

    But Aurene is the one true dragon who can harness all the energies without them conflicting inside her!(I would hate that plot point but Anet has done nothing to suggest any sort of other Dragon replacement.)

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That would require them ignoring the entire purpose of S3, PoF, and S4 and why we fought Balthazar. I really, really hope they don't pull that.

    But Aurene is the one true dragon who can harness all the energies without them conflicting inside her!(I would hate that plot point but Anet has done nothing to suggest any sort of other Dragon replacement.)

    Yeah, that's my biggest worry. I have some faith we'll get replacements in EoDs though with the reintroduction of Kuunavang and the saltsprays.

    I feel as if a dragon will die this season, and Aurene will attempt to hold up two pillars of the All at once. Maybe she can, temporarily, because she's a new kind of elder dragon. But she's only a brief patch-fix, and we launch into EoDs in pursuit of new scions to take on that burden. I don't remember if it was clearly established how the world would end if we lost another dragon, or how quick it would be. But I could see a trippy expansion where reality is starting to disintegrate into the mists steadily.

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if we forego the need for elder dragons to regulate the cycle of magic entirely by the end of the expansion.

  • Fleabite.7528Fleabite.7528 Member ✭✭✭

    Will a humanoid Champion for Primordus also emerge?

    Each Elder Dragon manifested by a rational and skilled champion is interesting: maybe also removes the need to kill the EDs themselves - which we know is a Very Bad Thing.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    We had a whole season building up Kralkatorrik to his death, a campaign to build up and kill Zhaitan and a whole living world and expansion to build up and kill Mordremoth and mostly the same for Balthazar too.

    I would 100% disagree about Kralkatorrik. Season 4 Episode 3 had completely nothing related to Kralkatorrik, and the relation in Episode 2 was minimal - just Inquest experiments. So that would be, at absolute most in argument, basically 4 episodes focused on Kralkatorrik. Personally, I wouldn't include Episode 2 because of how bare bones the branded threat was in that - I'd be more inclined to say 3.5 episodes and 1/4th of an expansion.

    Compared to pretty much two full episodes in Season 3, and four episodes in Seaosn 5. Kralkatorrik and Primordus are pretty on par.

    It's true episode's 2 and 3 didn't give much but he was still the big looming threat during that period of time and he was still looking for Aurine off screen.
    Joko did became our priority for this time but Kralkatorrik was the main big bad looming in the distance the whole time we were dealing with Joko.

    I'd say the expansion was more than 1/4 though, we pretty much follow Balthazar into PoF content specifically to stop him from killing Kralkatorrik.
    Kralk may not have been personally a big presence until the end but he was part of the main goal the whole time even if Balthazar was the priority.

    I'd say that it is a very different situation to Primordus due to various factors involved.
    Most of the Primordus content.. or more accurately Destroyer content we got was back in Gw1 and the Gw2 vanilla content.
    Yes we did get some Primordus stuff in season 3 but it was pretty minor outside of a surprise face to face encounter with him.
    As far as the progressing story of Gw2 goes he's been almost as absent from it as the Sea Dragon.. and pretty much just as inactive with his most notable actions being moving from one location to another, modifying his destroyers and the one time he went out of his way to specifically attack the newly hatched Aurine which is probably the most interesting and intelligent behaviour he has displayed in game thus far.
    Other that that Primordus always has been largely inactive.

    I still stand by my statement on time as well, pretty much all of this happened at minimum, years ago.. and we've dealt with 1 Elder Dragon and started building up another during that time.
    Primordus coming into the picture now is very fresh in a lot of ways so he really does need that re-introduction period and build up that Kralktorrik and Jormag got and I don't feel that can be done in 4 episodes of Ice Brood Saga, specially when Jormag is in play as are the Frost Legion which also need their time in the sun as well.
    If Primordus stirs, awakens and dies this quickly it'll just feel very rushed to me.
    It would almost be like going from the end of LWS1 to Heart of Thorns and skipping all of Season 2 which built up the Mordremoth threat.

    And both Kralkatorrik and Primordus are the most animalistic. So less screentime works, especially since unlike Zhaitan, their minions don't speak. There's not much interaction to be had with Primordus and his destroyers - just voiceless killers to fight back and fight through. Not much of an interesting plot, in all honesty.

    Their minions are mindless drones, least for the most part but I expect Primordus himself is more like Kralkatorrik.
    I expect there is an intelligence in there somewhere, specially with the new magics he's consumed from the other Dragons and he probably can speak like even Kralkatorrik could despite that for many many years Kralkatorrik was perceived to be nothing more than a mindless rampaging monster.

    I don't really want to see Primordus become some complex tormented being like Kralk was though, I want him to be the ultimate representation of what a truly evil apocalypse bringing Elder Dragon of pure destruction is, I want him out of all of them to really represent that old stereotype we had of ED's lol
    For him to become that I believe we need to witness in game the catastrophic destruction that he is capable of, and I don't believe that can be done as well in just 4 episodes as it could be in a whole season or expansion, specially with others stealing his time in the spotlight.

    That's why I think if any Dragon is to go down soon it should be Jormag in a massive twist/upset similar to what happened with Kralkatorrik at Thunderhead Peaks only on a much bigger scale and with no Joko Magic plot armour lol
    Having Primordus manage to kill Jormag and injure Aurine while being outnumbered and attack from all sides by Us, our allies and the Frost Legion and Icebrood would definitely showcase just how powerful and dangerous he really is.. and even with 2 Elder Dragons and multiple armies coordinated against him.. which is a power the world has probably never seen before, Primordus still wins and deals a massive blow, crippling us in the process.
    That's how I would build up a Dragon like Primordus without needing to give him tons of dialogue etc.

    The interesting part of the plot will come in the allies and getting them to join, not in confronting the destroyers. Much like in Eye of the North. Because there simply will be nothing but "fight back the destroyers, don't let them kill everyone!" over and over and over again.

    There will be no destroyer menacingly saying "So this is the Pact Commander. I am not impressed." There will only be destroyers saying "(terrifying otherworldly howl)"

    True, but I think think another big part of it will also be the distrust and uneasy truce we seem to be getting with Jormag, I expect most of the story development will be Jormag and ally focused with Destroyers just attacking here and there.. which means there will be no real Primordus buildup at all leading to his death if he does get killed off in 4 episodes.

    This is exactly why we need something big like Primordus killing Jormag or Primordus going completely nuclear and devastating an entire region of the world or something to really show off how powerful and dangerous he is.
    If he's killed off without anything like that then he really will feel like a joke and will be by far the most disappointing Dragon in the franchise.

  • i still hope it all comes down to a story with primordus as the apocalypse of fire and pure destruction, and than have Bubbles wash in with a tidalwave of horror and chtulhu madness with us all in the middle.

    Pure destruction from one side and pure madness from the other. having an earthquake and a hurricane at the same time

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    Other that that Primordus always has been largely inactive, he didn't even bother trying to attack us or Balthazar when we were right there in his face.. and he went back to a pre awakening state after that event too becoming even more inactive.

    Primordus couldn’t attack us, when Balthazar turned on the Taimi’s Machine, it put it in a paralyzed state as well as killing the destroyers.

    Taimi: Whoa. Hotter down here. Is that...? That's Primordus! Right there! I've never been this close to an Elder Dragon!
    : Should we be worried about it...I don't know, moving and killing us all?
    Taimi: I theorized the machine would put it in a state of paralysis... Looks like I was right.

    I suspect because of the timing of it all, the reason Braham and his guild were able to get so close to Jormag and surround it was because the machine would have done the same to Jormag as it did to Primordus. Which would most likely killed any Icebrood around allowing Braham and “Destiny’s Edge” to get into position and a strategic advantage.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2020

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Primordus couldn’t attack us, when Balthazar turned on the Taimi’s Machine, it put it in a paralyzed state as well as killing the destroyers.

    Taimi: Whoa. Hotter down here. Is that...? That's Primordus! Right there! I've never been this close to an Elder Dragon!
    : Should we be worried about it...I don't know, moving and killing us all?
    Taimi: I theorized the machine would put it in a state of paralysis... Looks like I was right.

    I suspect because of the timing of it all, the reason Braham and his guild were able to get so close to Jormag and surround it was because the machine would have done the same to Jormag as it did to Primordus. Which would most likely killed any Icebrood around allowing Braham and “Destiny’s Edge” to get into position and a strategic advantage.

    Ahh yes I completely forgot about that detail, thanks for bringing that up.
    I shall remove that bit from my post.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭

    Could Jormag trick us into believing their minions belong to Primordus?

    It wouldn't be hard to make Primordus dangerous enough to require an alliance with Jormag. Give him more soldiers and mcguffins than us. I just don't think an alliance is required. I believe Jormag is somewhat serious and honest. Perhaps we will see a truce with Jormag that leads to dialog and knowledge about the Elder dragon cycle. Perhaps Jormag will be a strange mentor to Aurene. That would make a twisty death for Jormag likely. Who has Braham's bow? Wasn't Ryland looking for it? Maybe Bangar is right that it was never important.

    Prism and Light isn't a good synonym for Crystal and Fury. Water can be a prism and light makes only vampires furious. If she is a vessel for light and prism and if domains make demands of vessels, then Aurene should be focused on the duality of whole and divided light. Perhaps she is magi-physiologically perfect for the role of the One but her magi-physiologically demands her mind disappear in the fine line but infinitely wavy line between whole and divided. GW2's fan base would also demand it. We would probably stumble into the realization that she is the One. An Elder dragon dies "unexpectedly" and Aurene manages to hold the All together, possibly unlocking a new form.

    weathering's everything

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik by consuming Kralkatorrik's domain. And we know thanks to Episode 2 of IBS that Jormag got a powerboost from Kralkatorrik - so we have confirmation that Aurene didn't consume all of Kralkatorrik's magic. Specifically, Jormag's powerboost includes Balthazar's magic, heavily hinting that when Aurene - to quote Descent objectives - "Sever the threads of magic" when destroying the facets (visually, she branded the facets, expelling crystal to cover them, rather than consumed them), she did not consume them.

    Didn't Balthazar leak magic into the environment when he died? I'm not entirely certain what you mean by confirmation. I would imagine several of the dragons received a power boost when the ex-god was deposed, just as they did when Mordemoth's power rushed out.

    This is not to say that could not have also happened when Kralkatorrik died. But it was far less chaotic than Balthazar/Mordremoth. I don't think we even see his body afterwards.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    End of Dragons is plural. So unless the sea dragon is a hydra and counts as two. There is going to more than one dragon left after this arc is over.

    The title is very clearly referring to the cycle of six Elder Dragons ending, and not meant to be the end of two+ specific dragons.

    Things can refer to multiple things. Path of Fire ended up referring to Ascension and to Balthazar.

    It didn't refer to Ascension at all. It only referred to the path Balthazar was taking as he blazed through the Crystal Desert and Elona en route to Kralkatorrik.

    Same with Heart of Thorns, specifically referring to the Blighting Tree that Mordremoth was rooted to, the Heart of Thorns. Nightfall referred solely to the prophecy that was uncovering; Factions to the Kurzick/Luxon factions of Cantha; Eye of the North to that; War in Krtya to the civil war; etc. etc. All the names given to expansions and releases are seldom - if ever - double entendres.

    The path to ascension, which involves divine fire, was an important part of the plot. And, not for nothing, Caithe corners Faolain at the heart of thorns. I also contest that names are seldom, if ever, double entendres. See "A Bug in the System", "Daybreak", etc.

    Also, the people who named the Gw1 expansions may not even work at Anet anymore. And have no bearing on how witty Gw2 writers can be.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik by consuming Kralkatorrik's domain. And we know thanks to Episode 2 of IBS that Jormag got a powerboost from Kralkatorrik - so we have confirmation that Aurene didn't consume all of Kralkatorrik's magic. Specifically, Jormag's powerboost includes Balthazar's magic, heavily hinting that when Aurene - to quote Descent objectives - "Sever the threads of magic" when destroying the facets (visually, she branded the facets, expelling crystal to cover them, rather than consumed them), she did not consume them.

    Didn't Balthazar leak magic into the environment when he died? I'm not entirely certain what you mean by confirmation. I would imagine several of the dragons received a power boost when the ex-god was deposed, just as they did when Mordemoth's power rushed out.

    This is not to say that could not have also happened when Kralkatorrik died. But it was far less chaotic than Balthazar/Mordremoth. I don't think we even see his body afterwards.

    It was confirmed by one of the writers that when Balthazar died, his powers were sent to the other dragons. The same is said for Kralkatorrik as proven by the dialogue from Drakkar becoming more powerful.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Of course, I'm very doubtful that Jormag will meet their end this season. Primordus dying... I can see it. Unless we manage to put it to sleep again instead.

    But my question is the same question from the beginning of this season: how are we to deal with an Elder Dragon, without a scion to replace them?

    And to the notion of "four episodes isn't enough" - remember, Kralkatorrik got three! Season 4 Episodes 1-3 were all about Joko, and PoF was about Balthazar. Kralkatorrik's minions played cameo (to a degree), but Kralkatorrik wasn't the focus until Season 4 Episode 4. Just as Primordus' minions got cameo (via Forged Steel) and doesn't become a focus until Episode 5 of 8.

    I think in a scenario where one of the Elder Dragons dies, it's more likely for Primordus to survive and for him to (against all odds) finish off Jormag... mainly because I don't see us dealing with Jormag all over again after we already went through IBS. This really depends on how the upcoming episode 5 chapters play out, of course - whether the introduction of Primordus is used mainly as a means to explore the story of Jormag more (and hence won't touch upon Primordus related story threads too much; mainly thinking of the Depths and asuran history here), or whether he will instead become the main focus of the story from now on.

    Regarding the fallout and the issue of scions, I agree with @Svennis.3852:

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    I feel as if a dragon will die this season, and Aurene will attempt to hold up two pillars of the All at once. Maybe she can, temporarily, because she's a new kind of elder dragon. But she's only a brief patch-fix, and we launch into EoDs in pursuit of new scions to take on that burden. I don't remember if it was clearly established how the world would end if we lost another dragon, or how quick it would be. But I could see a trippy expansion where reality is starting to disintegrate into the mists steadily.

    Though I wouldn't be surprised if we forego the need for elder dragons to regulate the cycle of magic entirely by the end of the expansion.

    The disintegration of reality/Tyria has been hinted at since Season 2 (introduction of the All), Heart of Thorns (e.g. Mordremoth's comments on oblivion) and confirmed as a threat in Season 3. Path of Fire further explored this possible future in a variety of trailers and in-game visions - so I could definitely see ANet making this threat to the fundamental structure of Tyria one of the major plot points in End of Dragons. The Sunqua Peak fractal also dealt with similar themes of disbalance and elements running rampant (although the craziest parts of its environmental design are probably more due to the nature of fractals).

    Also, for some reason I've always had a lovefor floating thingies, in both GW1 and GW2 - be it the Wizard's Tower, Vabbian architecture, the Tarnished Coast, Mists environments or that spectactular! disintegrating pyramid. So I'm all here for MORE of that!

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That would require them ignoring the entire purpose of S3, PoF, and S4 and why we fought Balthazar. I really, really hope they don't pull that.

    But Aurene is the one true dragon who can harness all the energies without them conflicting inside her!(I would hate that plot point but Anet has done nothing to suggest any sort of other Dragon replacement.)

    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    @Svennis.3852 said:
    Though I wouldn't be surprised if we forego the need for elder dragons to regulate the cycle of magic entirely by the end of the expansion.

    The promo line "the cycle is reborn" feels like we aren't foregoing the need of Elder Dragons.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    It's true episode's 2 and 3 didn't give much but he was still the big looming threat during that period of time and he was still looking for Aurine off screen.
    Joko did became our priority for this time but Kralkatorrik was the main big bad looming in the distance the whole time we were dealing with Joko.

    Not at all. Kralkatorrik was sitting on a mountainside. He didn't begin chasing Aurene (or rather, having his champions chase Aurene) until Episode 4 began. He was literally doing nothing by all accounts of dialogue after causing that brandstorm at Amnoon and sending off some brandstone meteors, until the Death-Branded Shatterer attacked the meeting during Episode 4.

    And Kralkatorrik was pretty much completely ignored, even in dialogue, during all of Episode 2 and 3.

    I'd say the expansion was more than 1/4 though, we pretty much follow Balthazar into PoF content specifically to stop him from killing Kralkatorrik.
    Kralk may not have been personally a big presence until the end but he was part of the main goal the whole time even if Balthazar was the priority.

    Kralkatorrik wasn't an antagonist here though, he was more like Primordus role during EotN - a looming mcguffin for the villain.

    Yes we did get some Primordus stuff in season 3 but it was pretty minor outside of a surprise face to face encounter with him.

    I dunno, I'd say ending Episode 1 with the ominous line of "Primordus is active." and having Episode 2 (and its preluding Transfer Chaser achievement) entirely dedicated to the evolution and movement of Primordus, and the majority of Episode 5 dedicated to Primordus as a direct looming threat, with a meta fully dedicated to his champions, is quite a bit more than "pretty minor outside of a surprise face to face encounter".

    Their minions are mindless drones, least for the most part but I expect Primordus himself is more like Kralkatorrik.
    I expect there is an intelligence in there somewhere, specially with the new magics he's consumed from the other Dragons and he probably can speak like even Kralkatorrik could despite that for many many years Kralkatorrik was perceived to be nothing more than a mindless rampaging monster.

    Even if Primordus was some intelligent individual, without direct confrontation with Primordus, there's no plot besides "fight the mindless drones". The only narrative development will be of others talking about Primordus - for Kralk, this was mainly Glint; for Primordus, it's mainly Jormag - and a direct final confrontation.

    Unless Primordus suddenly pulls a Mordremoth out of nowhere, which I feel will be far worse than killing Primordus by the end of IBS.

    For him to become that I believe we need to witness in game the catastrophic destruction that he is capable of, and I don't believe that can be done as well in just 4 episodes as it could be in a whole season or expansion, specially with others stealing his time in the spotlight.

    6+ episodes that is just a continuous repeat "defend point A from destroyer waves" and "where in the world is Primordus' weakness" is not an enjoyable plot to anticipate, nor is forcing an asspull of Primordus for some reason either a) gaining distanced telepathy or b) making talkative minions.

    which means there will be no real Primordus buildup at all leading to his death if he does get killed off in 4 episodes.

    Primordus will get as much buildup as is possible without changing the fundamentals of his minions or his powers.

    With zero communication with him and his minions, there's no way to create an interesting, long plot with Primordus. There's no minions to taunt us while the dragon is animalistic like Zhaitan, and no way for him to taunt us from afar like Mordremoth.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Didn't Balthazar leak magic into the environment when he died? I'm not entirely certain what you mean by confirmation. I would imagine several of the dragons received a power boost when the ex-god was deposed, just as they did when Mordemoth's power rushed out.

    This is not to say that could not have also happened when Kralkatorrik died. But it was far less chaotic than Balthazar/Mordremoth. I don't think we even see his body afterwards.

    Not very much leaked into the environment, and what did happened far away, and as Taimi says in Season 3 Episode 3:

    Taimi: Maybe proximity matters, and since Jormag's so far away, it didn't receive as much Mordy juice.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_Cookin'
    And like I said, it got confirmed that Jormag got a power boost from Kralkatorrik's death:

    Then Zhaitan was slain. Then Mordremoth. Then Kralkatorrik. With each Elder Dragon slain by the Pact Commander and their allies, the whispers seemed to grow louder.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_History_of_Still_Waters_Speaking:Part_Two
    Also: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Chat
    -_Episode_97 but good luck finding the text, oh boy.

    The path to ascension, which involves divine fire, was an important part of the plot.

    That had absolutely nothing to do with Path of Fire's plot. Divine fire was never mentioned, and Ascension was only relevant to a single meta that had nothing to do with the Forged or Balthazar.

    And, not for nothing, Caithe corners Faolain at the heart of thorns.

    Technically, no.

    I also contest that names are seldom, if ever, double entendres. See "A Bug in the System", "Daybreak", etc.

    Two examples would exactly be "seldom" when we have nearly a hundred releases now.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @SunRoamer.5103 said:
    I think in a scenario where one of the Elder Dragons dies, it's more likely for Primordus to survive and for him to (against all odds) finish off Jormag... mainly because I don't see us dealing with Jormag all over again after we already went through IBS. This really depends on how the upcoming episode 5 chapters play out, of course - whether the introduction of Primordus is used mainly as a means to explore the story of Jormag more (and hence won't touch upon Primordus related story threads too much; mainly thinking of the Depths and asuran history here), or whether he will instead become the main focus of the story from now on.

    I'd say it more depends on whether they intend to put Jormag through the redemption plot or not. If not, then Jormag will undoubtably die this season. But I do think there is a realm for Jormag to be redeemed and/or permanently put to sleep, thus no longer being a threat for the future.

    The disintegration of reality/Tyria has been hinted at since Season 2 (introduction of the All), Heart of Thorns (e.g. Mordremoth's comments on oblivion) and confirmed as a threat in Season 3. Path of Fire further explored this possible future in a variety of trailers and in-game visions - so I could definitely see ANet making this threat to the fundamental structure of Tyria one of the major plot points in End of Dragons.

    I feel like we would have seen hints of such in the concept art if the expansion was going to have a world-ending-is-imminent scenario.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SunRoamer.5103SunRoamer.5103 Member ✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The disintegration of reality/Tyria has been hinted at since Season 2 (introduction of the All), Heart of Thorns (e.g. Mordremoth's comments on oblivion) and confirmed as a threat in Season 3. Path of Fire further explored this possible future in a variety of trailers and in-game visions - so I could definitely see ANet making this threat to the fundamental structure of Tyria one of the major plot points in End of Dragons.

    I feel like we would have seen hints of such in the concept art if the expansion was going to have a world-ending-is-imminent scenario.

    Colourful floating bubbles in Echovald Forest seem very doomsday to me, personally! :#

    On a more serious note, yeah, you might be right. But as it stands, we haven't really seen much of the current Cantha so far, as the teaser might have shown historical scenes and other pieces of concept art have been rare (and the aforementioned floating bubbles in one of these paintings did look very out-of-place, so who knows, maybe they are related to this - similar to how Kralkatorrik's rift shenanigans integrated pieces of other places and times into Jahai, maybe a part of the ocean somehow manifested within the Echovald Forest or something... or it's just visions-related VFX).
    If an oblivion-plot does happen, it might also just be more visible in some of the later maps because they happen later on in the timeline, when things start degrading more and more, and aren't necessarily present within all expansion maps.

    But like I said, I looooove me some floaty kitten, so this is just me hoping for more of floating stuff in case they do end the current saga with an ED dying. Other storylines seem just as plausible, though.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 10, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The path to ascension, which involves divine fire, was an important part of the plot.

    That had absolutely nothing to do with Path of Fire's plot. Divine fire was never mentioned, and Ascension was only relevant to a single meta that had nothing to do with the Forged or Balthazar.

    Ascension involves traveling into Elona to seek communion with the gods. I'm not saying this was another Arcana Obscura, but I do consider it a nod to the pilgrimage and what it represented.

    Two examples would exactly be "seldom" when we have nearly a hundred releases now.

    "Wrench in the Works," "Snapping Steel", "Be My Guest," "Forging Steel" etc. There is room to be witty.

    I will not be surprised if End of Dragons refers to both actual death and the end of the cycle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    Did we get actual confirmation that the other voice in the EoD trailer was a dragon?

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    Did we get actual confirmation that the other voice in the EoD trailer was a dragon?

    I don't believe so, but the two voices are referred to as "ancient voices" on the official EoDs expansion page. A dragon seems most likely, but it could be something else.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    Did we get actual confirmation that the other voice in the EoD trailer was a dragon?

    I don't believe so, but the two voices are referred to as "ancient voices" on the official EoDs expansion page. A dragon seems most likely, but it could be something else.

    Well one voice is Kuunavang, as the other voice, names her.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    Did we get actual confirmation that the other voice in the EoD trailer was a dragon?

    I don't believe so, but the two voices are referred to as "ancient voices" on the official EoDs expansion page. A dragon seems most likely, but it could be something else.

    Well one voice is Kuunavang, as the other voice, names her.

    I bring this up in reference to the non-Kuunavang voice. :P

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

    Another thing comes to mind. There are various kinds of twins. If my theory that Jormag is Kralkatorrik's mother is correct, that would mean Jormag and Primordus are fraternal twins. Alternatively, they could be identical twins, but that doesn't make much sense, as Jormag's and Primordus's models are too dissimilar.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • mezuzel.4987mezuzel.4987 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

    Could be interesting - but "they" refers to Jormag, who doesn't really have a gender and thus is referred to with they/them pronouns.

    https://deconforming.com/they-them-pronouns/
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @mezuzel.4987 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

    Could be interesting - but "they" refers to Jormag, who doesn't really have a gender and thus is referred to with they/them pronouns.

    https://deconforming.com/they-them-pronouns/
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/

    Maybe. It depends on what Jormag means when it says that Primordus is it's "twin". If it is metaphorical, then Jormag may be an "it"; if it is familial, however, Jormag has a gender (note: I am using an archaic form of this word) denoted by the function of it's genitalia.

    Jormag refers to Prim as a "he", calls Aurene a "little sister". Kralkatorrik called to his "mother". I suggest that the current story arc is as much about exploring the Elder Dragon family as it is anything else.

    Moreover, Tom Abernathy's comment was about the sexuality with which Jormag identifies, not the biological function of it's genitalia. Tom's comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's not talk about dragon genitalia. -_-

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @mezuzel.4987 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

    Could be interesting - but "they" refers to Jormag, who doesn't really have a gender and thus is referred to with they/them pronouns.

    https://deconforming.com/they-them-pronouns/
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/singular-nonbinary-they
    https://www.grammarly.com/blog/use-the-singular-they/

    Maybe. It depends on what Jormag means when it says that Primordus is it's "twin". If it is metaphorical, then Jormag may be an "it"; if it is familial, however, Jormag has a gender (note: I am using an archaic form of this word) denoted by the function of it's genitalia.

    Jormag refers to Prim as a "he", calls Aurene a "little sister". Kralkatorrik called to his "mother". I suggest that the current story arc is as much about exploring the Elder Dragon family as it is anything else.

    Moreover, Tom Abernathy's comment was about the sexuality with which Jormag identifies, not the biological function of it's genitalia. Tom's comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

    There is is much wrong with this comment. Least of which is that these are magical creatures that most likely reproduce asexually.

    "Mother" meant about as much to Kralkatorrik as it does to the Sylvari greeting the Pale Tree. The nature of corruption makes talking about "biological function" inherently flawed.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2020

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    There is is much wrong with this comment.

    That's a vit harsh, Daniel.

    Least of which is that these are magical creatures that most likely reproduce asexually.

    We know that Aurene hatched from an egg. We know that some of the Elder Dragons are male (Kralkatorrik, Primordus, presumably Jormag) and - if you subscribe to the idea that Aurene is an Elder Dragon - and others are female. We now have enough info to infer one of two possibilities: dragons reproduce asexually, such that their reproductive abilities aren't tied to either sex; or, they are sexually dimorphic. We don't have enough information to rule sexual dimorphism out.

    "Mother" meant about as much to Kralkatorrik as it does to the Sylvari greeting the Pale Tree.

    If you were to encounter Kralk's "mother", who do you think it would be? The Pale Tree? You'd tell me that it was more likely to be another dragon.

    The nature of corruption makes talking about "biological function" inherently flawed.

    You'll need to explain yourself a bit more there. I see no reason why biological paradigms are incompatible with the lore of Guild Wars.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    We know that some of the Elder Dragons are male

    Actually, we know the exact opposite is true.

    Anet themselves have stated the dragons have no actual gender. They just use whatever pronouns they want for the sake of conversation.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Ascension involves traveling into Elona to seek communion with the gods. I'm not saying this was another Arcana Obscura, but I do consider it a nod to the pilgrimage and what it represented.

    That's a bit of a stretch. Path of Fire was very, very much Nightfall 2.0 in the same way that The Force Awakens was A New Hope 2.0. Plus, Ascension didn't really involve "communion with the gods", just the gods' attention (and this is apparently put to debate in GW2 as possibly being a human misconception, like the origin of magic).

    Two examples would exactly be "seldom" when we have nearly a hundred releases now.

    "Wrench in the Works," "Snapping Steel", "Be My Guest," "Forging Steel" etc. There is room to be witty.

    Those are not release names. Those are story step names. HUGE difference

    I will not be surprised if End of Dragons refers to both actual death and the end of the cycle.

    Technically that's still one thing, since the death of Elder Dragons means changing the cycle - though "end of the cycle" would contradict the promotional phrase attached to End of Dragons: "The cycle is reborn".

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I dunno, bringing Kuunavang and some other, unknown dragon at a point when replacements are needed feels like a decent hint.

    Did we get actual confirmation that the other voice in the EoD trailer was a dragon?

    Not outright, but the dialogue at least tells us the voice isn't a mortal, and an associate of Kuunavang.

    Very high chance it's a dragon.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    A thought occurred to me: What if Jormag and Primordus are single-minded, perhaps a hive mind? That might mean that Bangar is referring to them both when he warns Aurene that "they're playing" her, "like a fiddle". The two dragons are secretly working together in a "good cop, bad cop" routine.

    I think Bangar hates Jormag enough at this point to spoil any plans if he had knowledge of such.

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Maybe. It depends on what Jormag means when it says that Primordus is it's "twin". If it is metaphorical, then Jormag may be an "it"; if it is familial, however, Jormag has a gender (note: I am using an archaic form of this word) denoted by the function of it's genitalia.

    Jormag refers to Prim as a "he", calls Aurene a "little sister". Kralkatorrik called to his "mother". I suggest that the current story arc is as much about exploring the Elder Dragon family as it is anything else.

    Moreover, Tom Abernathy's comment was about the sexuality with which Jormag identifies, not the biological function of it's genitalia. Tom's comment should be taken with a grain of salt.

    ANet (specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time) had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking, ALL Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it". This is why the wiki had gone through lengths to ensure the Elder Dragons are referred to with "it" pronouns, unless otherwise used in-game.

    This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons - by all indication so far reproduced in a non-standard asexual method - without need of partners.

    You may also note: Risen do not refer to Zhaitan with a gender at any time. Instead of using a pronoun, they use "the dragon" or "my master". And neither do Mordrem Guard for Mordremoth - where pronouns would be expected, they use "the jungle dragon". (If there is a pronoun use for them by risen/mordrem, it's likely a small slip - I even checked just now to verify and no major moment has dragon minions using a pronoun for them).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ANet (specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time) had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking, ALL Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it".

    As I have stated before, Konig, I believe that you have an over-reliance on out-of-game sources to help you comprehend in-game "facts".

    This is why the wiki had gone through lengths to ensure the Elder Dragons are referred to with "it" pronouns, unless otherwise used in-game.

    The wiki isn't the fulcrum we would have it be. Anyone reading this response should remember that contributors to the wiki are doing their best to provide "facts" in a manner of which all wiki editors approve. This is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean that the wiki's use of the term "it", when referring to Elder Dragons, is still accurate. As of 2012 it might have been accurate within the context of the early story. At that time, an everyday Tyrian might'nt have thought of an Elder Dragon as anything more than an it. However, Aurene has penetrated aspects of the Elder Dragons' inner circle, revealing that, indeed, the Elder Dragons might have reproductive organs. Hence, the wiki may be outdated and due for revision at the conclusion of the IBS.

    This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons - by all indication so far reproduced in a non-standard asexual method - without need of partners.

    We don't know that. We do not have enough information to make such definitive statements. Until we learn more about the reproductive methods of Elder Dragons we simply cannot rule out the possibility that they are sexually dimorphic.

    You may also note: Risen do not refer to Zhaitan with a gender at any time. Instead of using a pronoun, they use "the dragon" or "my master". And neither do Mordrem Guard for Mordremoth - where pronouns would be expected, they use "the jungle dragon". (If there is a pronoun use for them by risen/mordrem, it's likely a small slip - I even checked just now to verify and no major moment has dragon minions using a pronoun for them).

    Thank you for pointing this out. Did it ever occur to you, Konig, that the nature of Elder Dragon reproduction, including the biological gender of each Elder, might've been something that the dragons didn't want mortals to know about? Perhaps for fear that mortals would use the knowledge of these things against the Elders?

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?

  • @Plagiarised.2865 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?

    That'd be some pretty bad and lazy writing if Anet went that route.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Plagiarised.2865 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?

    They could I suppose but it would go against a lot of what's already been established.

    1.) Kralk went more and more mad the more magic he absorbed that wasn't natural to him. Aurene may be "special" but is she special enough to hold all of that? Say we kill off every elder dragon but her, that's Balthazar plus 5 other elder dragons magic she would be holding onto. Even if she somehow was able to "purify" it and give some off to the lesser races that's A LOT of magic she's giving away to the lesser races that they may not even be able to handle themselves without going insane.
    2.) The domains that she's absorbed and her tie to the all. Can an elder dragon survive being connected to all 6 domains? Because it's not like she can pass off her connection to those domains to the lesser races.

    I think long term if she remained at her current level, she would probably be fine for eons. But I'd imagine the death of just one more elder dragon may be the tipping point to lead her down the same path as the others, thus why we go to Cantha. One thing that bothers me is that they haven't really dealt with the current potential candidates for replacements, like the Pale Tree. While I think this is mostly because of Arenanet keeping the plot moving in one-direction, if we wanted to toss out speculation on in-game character motives... is Aurene not pursuing that because she feels she's fine handling things the way they are? Or have the effects of the magic already taken toll and she's secretly not desiring to find replacements because the torment has begun and she's wanting to hoard as much as she can?

    If you look at the latest Bangar dialogue Jormag calls Aurene out on not interfering with Jormag and Primordus and leaving it to the mortals because there was "nothing to gain." Personally, I found this strange because before she ascended she would have likely jumped at the chance to defend the commander and others from a potential elder dragon threat. At least in my opinion. You could argue that there was nothing to gain because she knew killing them would create an imbalance, but her next line was pretty much "So you kill him then." Which shows that the death of them is obviously not a concern to Aurene. She just didn't want to get involved herself, and I have to wonder what the motive for that is.

    I do like the theory that someone tossed out implying that Jormag and Primordus are working together though. To me that makes sense because they're each other's weakness. They fought in the past and it seemed like it resulted in a pretty bloody battle. Who knows what shape Primordus was in after that. Was Jormag the only one injured or was Primordus injured as well? Leading them both to realize that they're better off in an alliance than as enemies?

    If all the others die and they are able to take over Tyria, they could potentially share Tyria in cycles as originally intended knowing that they have no equals. This goes against the torment and insanity bit but up until Primordus and Jormag we haven't really seen two elder dragons warring with one another. Potentially hundreds of thousands of years and they've seemingly been content finding their own corner of the world. What's so different now?

    And with presumably all of the remaining dragons having access to mist travel now, why are seemingly none of the remaining as interested in consuming the mists as Kralk was?

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    More on the topic of Aurene, the only way I can see her being the sole carrier of that magic is if she's able to rapidly produce scions and can gift those domains and that magic to those scions. Perhaps that's her plan in the long run. And again, that could be either be torment causing her to want to have complete control over those domains and that magic or just be instinctive and presumably protective, believing that HER children are the only ones capable of doing what needs to be done.

    And to be honest, she does look like she's roosting in a nest in Eye of the North. Probably reading more into it than I should, but it could be another reason why she's less interested in getting directly involved in the war between Jormag and Primordus. I know it's early and she just ascended, and we don't really know anything about dragon reproduction, but it wouldn't surprise me to have a reveal that she's popped out a few eggs.

  • I would prefer Aurene being the One over resolving everything with dragon sex.

    The trope of the 'Chosen Special One' is common enough to be cliche and the studio does love easy to tell cliches. If they do go this route, it can't be hidden for much longer. I think the trope could work as fake out. Aurene learns she can replace all of the Elder Dragons but must sacrifice ever being awake or possibly her mind. Being Aurene, she thinks her mind is worth the price and works to make it happen. The Commander goes off to find an alternative and it is this alternative that works.

    weathering's everything

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2020

    I think many people agree that Aurene solving all our problems would be a huge cop-out from the threads/lore building the writers themselves established. Even if the narrative team has drastically changed, I don’t see why they wouldn’t honor the story that came before them. I’ll be disappointed if they retcon the need for multiple beings to hold up the All, unless we actually manage to modify it somehow.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    More on the topic of Aurene, the only way I can see her being the sole carrier of that magic is if she's able to rapidly produce scions and can gift those domains and that magic to those scions. Perhaps that's her plan in the long run. And again, that could be either be torment causing her to want to have complete control over those domains and that magic or just be instinctive and presumably protective, believing that HER children are the only ones capable of doing what needs to be done.

    And to be honest, she does look like she's roosting in a nest in Eye of the North. Probably reading more into it than I should, but it could be another reason why she's less interested in getting directly involved in the war between Jormag and Primordus. I know it's early and she just ascended, and we don't really know anything about dragon reproduction, but it wouldn't surprise me to have a reveal that she's popped out a few eggs.

    I had this idea too and I’m wondering if this what happened eons ago with perhaps one Proto Elder Dragon, who gave birth to the other Elder Dragons we know now with separate domains.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ANet (specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time) had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking, ALL Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it".

    As I have stated before, Konig, I believe that you have an over-reliance on out-of-game sources to help you comprehend in-game "facts".

    See: Word of God.

    And for the matter, you have an over-reliance on ignoring established facts and denying the very writers' statements to avoid debunking your reaching fanon.

    This is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean that the wiki's use of the term "it", when referring to Elder Dragons, is still accurate.

    If it isn't, it's because the Elder Dragon associates with a pronoun, not because they have identifiable genitals.

    However, Aurene has penetrated aspects of the Elder Dragons' inner circle, revealing that, indeed, the Elder Dragons might have reproductive organs.

    There is no such revelation from Aurene becoming an Elder Dragon, and we've known since 2005 that a dragon can have children, so the fact that there are family ties does not change this.

    This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons - by all indication so far reproduced in a non-standard asexual method - without need of partners.

    We don't know that. We do not have enough information to make such definitive statements. Until we learn more about the reproductive methods of Elder Dragons we simply cannot rule out the possibility that they are sexually dimorphic.

    The very lack of evidence, despite going over the topic of dragon family over the past two years, is pretty strong evidence of lacking in this case.

    Thank you for pointing this out. Did it ever occur to you, Konig, that the nature of Elder Dragon reproduction, including the biological gender of each Elder, might've been something that the dragons didn't want mortals to know about? Perhaps for fear that mortals would use the knowledge of these things against the Elders?

    Why would the Elder Dragons, who view mortals as nothing greater than ants worth ignoring, or food, care what the mortals do or do not know about how they have children?
    You give the Elder Dragons too much credit, because it's been firmly established that the Elder Dragons are uncaring for mortals, mortal views, and mortal desires. Besides which, if "Elder Dragons can have children" is a fatal flaw to all Elder Dragons, then Glint, the Forgotten, and/or the Exalted would have spread that knowledge by now.

    @Plagiarised.2865 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?

    Not without denouncing the entire purpose of Season 3, Path of Fire, and Season 4. Where it is repeatedly stated that the issue isn't the balance of magic. It's the balance of The All. That four Elder Dragons are needed despite the remaining three Elder Dragons consuming even more magic - and that the act of an Elder Dragon consuming too much magic, in fact, unbalances The All.

    If the matter was simply "too much magic", then Balthazar killing Primordus of Kralkatorrik and absorbing either of their magic would be no issue.
    If the matter was simply "too much magic", then killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists, even with Aurene there to absorb his magic, to reduce some magic from the system, would be no issue.

    But both were world ending scenarios if they occurred.

    Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...
    Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?
    Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

    Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.
    Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

    Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.
    Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

    Ergo, while "too much magic" is an issue, it isn't the issue. The issue is the "Elder Dragon [im]balance."

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I would prefer Aurene being the One over resolving everything with dragon sex.

    Wouldn't really need that since all evidence suggests they reproduce asexually.

    Plus, we have two fairly likely replacements (Pale Tree and Kuunavang). And if Jormag goes redemption arc, that would give us the mandatory minimum four living Elder Dragons.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    ANet (specifically, Ree Soesbee - one of the two narrative directors of ANet, making her of the highest lore figure at ANet, at the time) had long ago established that Elder Dragons without gender in 2010. In other words, it's been long established that, biologically speaking, ALL Elder Dragons - even Kralkatorrik, Glint, Vlast, and Aurene - are technically an "it".

    As I have stated before, Konig, I believe that you have an over-reliance on out-of-game sources to help you comprehend in-game "facts".

    See: Word of God.

    And for the matter, you have an over-reliance on ignoring established facts and denying the very writers' statements to avoid debunking your reaching fanon.

    This is a good thing. However, it doesn't mean that the wiki's use of the term "it", when referring to Elder Dragons, is still accurate.

    If it isn't, it's because the Elder Dragon associates with a pronoun, not because they have identifiable genitals.

    However, Aurene has penetrated aspects of the Elder Dragons' inner circle, revealing that, indeed, the Elder Dragons might have reproductive organs.

    There is no such revelation from Aurene becoming an Elder Dragon, and we've known since 2005 that a dragon can have children, so the fact that there are family ties does not change this.

    This is likely why we hear nothing about Glint's mother, or Vlast/Aurene's father. Elder Dragons - and high dragons - by all indication so far reproduced in a non-standard asexual method - without need of partners.

    We don't know that. We do not have enough information to make such definitive statements. Until we learn more about the reproductive methods of Elder Dragons we simply cannot rule out the possibility that they are sexually dimorphic.

    The very lack of evidence, despite going over the topic of dragon family over the past two years, is pretty strong evidence of lacking in this case.

    Thank you for pointing this out. Did it ever occur to you, Konig, that the nature of Elder Dragon reproduction, including the biological gender of each Elder, might've been something that the dragons didn't want mortals to know about? Perhaps for fear that mortals would use the knowledge of these things against the Elders?

    Why would the Elder Dragons, who view mortals as nothing greater than ants worth ignoring, or food, care what the mortals do or do not know about how they have children?
    You give the Elder Dragons too much credit, because it's been firmly established that the Elder Dragons are uncaring for mortals, mortal views, and mortal desires. Besides which, if "Elder Dragons can have children" is a fatal flaw to all Elder Dragons, then Glint, the Forgotten, and/or the Exalted would have spread that knowledge by now.

    @Plagiarised.2865 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said: Though I only see the later happening if they forego the whole need to have multiple replacements for the Elder Dragons (which is what will upset me).

    I see you bring this up a lot, Konig, but I still feel like they can make Aurene the sole Elder Dragon. If she circulates and shares magic rather than hoard it?

    Not without denouncing the entire purpose of Season 3, Path of Fire, and Season 4. Where it is repeatedly stated that the issue isn't the balance of magic. It's the balance of The All. That four Elder Dragons are needed despite the remaining three Elder Dragons consuming even more magic - and that the act of an Elder Dragon consuming too much magic, in fact, unbalances The All.

    If the matter was simply "too much magic", then Balthazar killing Primordus of Kralkatorrik and absorbing either of their magic would be no issue.
    If the matter was simply "too much magic", then killing Kralkatorrik in the Mists, even with Aurene there to absorb his magic, to reduce some magic from the system, would be no issue.

    But both were world ending scenarios if they occurred.

    Taimi: (big breath) Look, we've discovered that eliminating dragons isn't the best thing for the environment...
    Taimi: But what else were we going to do? Keep them alive and just let 'em eat us?
    Taimi: So we destroy them and deal with the fallout, but... But what if we can't deal with the consequences anymore?

    Sadizi: But when two Elder Dragons were unexpectedly eliminated from the cycle at one time, we believe it created a void.
    Sadizi: A void that caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin.

    Pact Commander: Kralkatorrik's even stronger and more dangerous than ever.
    Taimi: Oh boy. That could seriously accelerate the Elder Dragon imbalance. I should run some worst-case hypotheticals right away.

    Aurene: Now we must ride...scion and champion. Flush Kralkatorrik...from the Mists.
    Taimi: Right! If he dies in the Mists, that's it. His magic is gone. And so is Tyria.

    Ergo, while "too much magic" is an issue, it isn't the issue. The issue is the "Elder Dragon [im]balance."

    @Psientist.6437 said:
    I would prefer Aurene being the One over resolving everything with dragon sex.

    Wouldn't really need that since all evidence suggests they reproduce asexually.

    Plus, we have two fairly likely replacements (Pale Tree and Kuunavang). And if Jormag goes redemption arc, that would give us the mandatory minimum four living Elder Dragons.

    Just to add Konig, I’m pretty sure the next sentence with Sadizi stated the following:

    “Sadizi: The hope was that Glint's legacy would stabilize the cycle.
    Sadizi: We theorize these vacancies must be filled with entities that circulate and share magic rather than hoard it.
    Sadizi: Only then will the balance of magic truly become stable. Only then will Glint's legacy achieve its ultimate purpose.“