"Broken" trend must stop.

Instead of nagging Anet to "fix" strong builds by breaking them, you should fix your attitude and skill.

You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

Like renegade and holo? Better nerf mesmer then.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Like renegade and holo? Better nerf mesmer then.Nah random nerf on Berserker or Druid.

Usually it is mesmer that gets a random nerf when its not even meta.They also have tendency to nerf some random class skill that wasn't used (on any class)

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Instead of nagging Anet to "fix" strong builds by breaking them, you should fix your attitude and skill.

the community attitude never change -we want Toxic designs and Toxic mechanics to be severely dealt with once after all. As for skill,...what requirements does Toxicity take to be Toxic to remain broken for years and be spammed and abused endlessly without consequences?

None!!

-We can begin with Stealth remaining at #1 spot for being broken for 8 years.....-

@LuRkEr.9462 said:Usually it is mesmer that gets a random nerf when its not even meta.They also have tendency to nerf some random class skill that wasn't used (on any class)

keep in mind that just because the skill isn't being used doesn't mean it's not overperforming. It may be possible, but it also may be possible that it's simply just being outperformed by something even more overperforming than it. example is hard light arena. nobody used it until other things got nerfed, then it came right back in and created imbalanced scenarios until it was nerfed, when it could have been nerfed beforehand to prevent something like that happening.

@Vancho.8750 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Like renegade and holo? Better nerf mesmer then.Nah random nerf on Berserker or Druid.

I do know about you, but Kill Shot is so OP i can't stand it! Nerf it to the ground! It needs a longer cast time and slower projectile speed!

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

You've hit the nail on the head actually. The meta builds we have right now are disproportionately powerful.

The current state of Spellbreaker shows this trend perfectly. For all intents and purposes, Shout Heal spellbreaker should've been an off meta build. Compared to elite specs like Tempest, Firebrand, Druid, and Scourge, even Scrapper which have supportive capabilities build directly into their kit, Heal spellbreaker should not be the definitive best healer.

But that is not the case. Every other healer has seen a drastic reduction in their healing output. A "support's" job is no longer to keep the team alive, but rather, to play as a sort of Utility DPS and/or CC bot. They acknowledge that they do not have the raw numbers to keep a teamate alive though any meaningful amount of pressure, and opt to help secure kills, or deny them through preventative means such as AoE blocks, projectile hate, auras, rez skills ect.

Healbreaker just so happens to have enough healing to perform the role of a traditional healer. The amount the have is by no means excessive, but it is enough to function. When compared to other supports which have had their healing output neutered, functioning is enough to be considered op in proportion to everything else.

Strong and broken are often 2 different things.

I think many builds are "broken" in the sense that they have a absurd risk to reward ratio. Or rather a "skill" to being effective ratio.Which is why i feel it's often hard to talk about skill, when some builds are somewhat playing themselves or/and are extremly hard to actually punish for their mistakes.Many matchups are just not winnable as long as youre opponent is somewhat near your level and knows how to press buttons.Sure, you can still be useful and "improve" .But often that means to just rotate and accept that you can't win the fight no matter how the opponent plays.There is a reason why the lower brackets are overrun with burn guardians and stuff like flamethrower.And even in high ranking games builds like decap scrapper are a legit way to win.Even if it's an absolute miserable experience to play against.

Brave line of thought, but it is forsaken in these lands.

Inevitably someone or multiple someones will complain about something being broken, and it will be nerfed into the ground or removed entirely because that's the balance agenda. There is no long-term plan, there is very little diversity, and at this rate we'll probably be restricted to playing about ~4 different builds without being accused of throwing.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

I think an even better example is how you don't even mention Ventari revenant in the list of supports because it offers nothing but raw healing, which isn't even too impressive compared to most other supports, and is extremely vulnerable to pressure since his kit only offers projectile denial and blinds with Blinding Truths in Salvation. Compare it to something like Shoutbreaker, which has much more healing for the relative input and compromise to build coupled with built in cleanse with Trooper runes on top of tons of CC, boon rips, banner for stomps/rez, and FC to serve as a great defensive/offensive tool. Focusing the Shoutbreaker is significantly harder to do than a Ventari revenant, which has an entire set of skills built around support but offers very little beyond raw healing that is lessened significantly to the revenant themselves while having far less defense and utility to the team.

I love Shoutbreaker and have been playing it in WvW since it popped up after the Feb patch, and was actually pretty happy it came to sPvP because it's by far my favorite warrior and support build, but seeing how much it outshines everything by such a large margin, except maybe tempest because Shocking Aura is just insanely annoying to deal with and poops more boons, it made me realize just how far everything else has been left in the dust.

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

I did forget to mention Ventari. It's such a rare sight to see, I forgot to bring it up. From what I've been told, it works in very specific comps, but it's incredibly easy to focus.

I personally wouldn't play it in ranked. Perhaps it could see play in tourneys when surrounded by a team that knows to peel for it. `

@Kuma.1503 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

It -can- work if you build around it specifically, but even then it's usually not worth the effort, especially not when you can slap Shoutbreaker on a team and have it do Ventari's job but better and MUCH easier with added things only Shoutbreaker brings. Dealing with Ventari is like dealing with Necro, focus and CC. They're either forced to swap or just die.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"CutesySylveon.8290" said:You know it's very possible some builds are disproportionately powerful, right?

Nah, what makes healbreaker meta, is it's supreme sustain, that is completely carried by 2 second daze spam from full counter.and what makes healbreaker a meta support, is that it can sustain for a long time, thus it can heal more then others.

also the brokenness of full counter scales with how many ally is around it. basically a spammable shocking aura at some extend.

So healbreaker is the new hip thing to complain about?

Again @Kuma.1503 puts it perfectly. what others like @felix.2386 and @"CutesySylveon.8290" are missing here, is that it's all relative. and proportionate like he said.

For a personal example, i have 0 problems killing these "overpowered" heal-breakers on my reaper. You know why? Because i actually have the damage to kill them. 99% of all builds since febuary do next to no damage in comparison to reaper...so of course players running one of those 99% of builds will have a hard time killing a heal breaker.

So what is OP in that scenario? Is it reaper because it can kill Heal-breakers with 0 issues? Or is it Heal-breaker because 99% of builds can't put a dent in it because they have no damage?

It's all relative and we keep going further down the "nerf this" hole. Here we go again, strap in your seat belt.

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:So healbreaker is the new hip thing to complain about?

Again @Kuma.1503 puts it perfectly. what others like @felix.2386 and @"CutesySylveon.8290" are missing here, is that it's all relative. and proportionate like he said.

For a personal example, i have 0 problems killing these "overpowered" heal-breakers on my reaper. You know why? Because i actually have the damage to kill them. 99% of all builds since febuary do next to no damage in comparison to reaper...so of course players running one of those 99% of builds will have a hard time killing a heal breaker.

So what is OP in that scenario? Is it reaper because it can kill Heal-breakers with 0 issues? Or is it Heal-breaker because 99% of builds can't put a dent in it because they have no damage?

It's all relative and we keep going further down the "nerf this" hole. Here we go again, strap in your seat belt.

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

the reason why we keep going further down the 'nerf role' is because Anet allows it to continue. They allow Profession roles and Profession identity to be thrown around like a rag doll and treat it as trash.

A Warrior Profession role player a Guardian Profession and a Necromancer, A Mesmer Profession role playing a Rogue, A Guardian Profession role playing a Necromancer Profession, A Elementalist Profession playing a Guardian Profession, Necromancer Profession, Thief Profession, Warrior Profession and a Mesmer Profession, etc...

This is a Total Mess with 8 years in the making without having any intention, regard nor with any care to remedy It. is only getting worse as Anet continues to tolerate it

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Instead of nagging Anet to "fix" strong builds by breaking them, you should fix your attitude and skill.

I agree. Let’s all play the 4-5 OP build. Diversity? Who go time for that? Not Anet obviously.

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:So healbreaker is the new hip thing to complain about?

Again @Kuma.1503 puts it perfectly. what others like @felix.2386 and @"CutesySylveon.8290" are missing here, is that it's all relative. and proportionate like he said.

For a personal example, i have 0 problems killing these "overpowered" heal-breakers on my reaper. You know why? Because i actually have the damage to kill them. 99% of all builds since febuary do next to no damage in comparison to reaper...so of course players running one of those 99% of builds will have a hard time killing a heal breaker.

So what is OP in that scenario? Is it reaper because it can kill Heal-breakers with 0 issues? Or is it Heal-breaker because 99% of builds can't put a dent in it because they have no damage?

It's all relative and we keep going further down the "nerf this" hole. Here we go again, strap in your seat belt.

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

The main focus of GW2 is PvE..everything else is an afterthought , the damage and sustain is designed with PvE in mind and the professions on the top happen to be the "less desirable" in PvE aka Anet will buff these professions to Kingdom come to make them more "appealing" in PvE, this is also the reason why nerfs tend to come very late ( if at all) and only when the devs got tired of the constant whining in PvP/WvW forum

Did you all forget when Condi Thief got nerfed the day after one guy posted a video of him soloing a raid boss? And do you guys remember how that same build didn't get nerfed for 1.5 years before that faithful day?

As long as it's not OP in PvE....it's very rare for something to be nerfed extensively

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

What upsets me most is the method in which players will discuss this build if power creeps downward far enough that this becomes meta.

Just about anyone here could point out Ventari's flaws to you at the time being. It's not meta so most people don't hold bias against this build and are able to assess it's stregnths and weaknesses clearly.

In the event that it starts winning At's the tone will shift drastically. You'll hear things like

"It just spams heals while having permanent damage reduction and giving out might, alacrity, projectile blocks, and permablinds. It can still heal even while in CC. Every other healer can be locked down to prevent them from gaining value, but this one just gives out constant boons and heals with no counterplay. It's brandead toxic design, and it's the reason why this game is headed downhill. It shouldn't be allowed to exist in conquest".

What needs to change most is the way the community approaches meta builds. We need fewer complaints and more discussion. Why does this build work? What are it's stregnths, what are it's flaws? Which matchups does it win/lose? What teamcomps does it fare best in? Which give it trouble? All of these data points are helpful in enabling us to progress the meta in a way that new builds and strategies are able to rise.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

Too late for all of that...too many hypocrites flying around all too eager to denounce everything else but their own business. Players of each class believe their class takes the most skill and everything else is a noobtrap requiring nerfs at every turn. Things would be different if people would be more honest on this forum, that would constitute a more useful feedback for the devs.

I have been accused of being a "biased ranged main" or ele or guardian...funny because I made a 200+ posts threads suggesting how to nerf druid and boonbeast back in the day , before that I complained about core fire cele d/d ele, in both cases I attracted the hatred of dozen of players.

Have you ever see a necro suggesting nerfs to necro?...nope always playing the victim card while asking for huge nerfs on those things hardcountering the class. If you want real balance in a MMO, you must have experienced devs on the subject, I think CMC got the right idea about what is OP and UP....but his hands are tied by the skill team.

You really cannot ask for sensible and honest feedback on this forum:

Player A : "Fire Weaver is too oppressive with spamming AoE on the point, pls nerf"Player B : "You play Renegade which oppressive AoE on the point"Player A: "Noob L2P...just don't stand on the point d'ho"

Player A : "Tornado does too much dmg , pls nerf"Player B : "Lich Form with quickness is just as busted"Player A : "Noob L2P...just dodge or LoS d'ho"

And this is the state of this forum and why the feedback coming from here should be largely ignored as I always stated

One issue about discussing nerfs or balancing in general is that there are too many variables between hp, armor, traits, utilities, weapon sets/functions, roles, amulets/stats, runes and sigils to have an established benchmark to measure how a class should perform at x role using x build.

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.

Ironic ----- The exact same thing is happening now to Renegade that has been considered 'garbo' by the majority of the population. And now...SURPRISE....RENE OP PLEASE NERF! As someone explained before, the fact that people start talking about rene, is not because it was buffed...nor is it OP. Just the rest of the specs were brought down to Renegade's 'garbo' level.Keep those whiny posts going, and we won't have any builds left.Edit - For clarity, Kumo, I'm not throwing shade on you personally here by the way.

People's attitudes toward GW2 are pretty poor mainly because there is so little skill required to "compete" in it.

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@Kuma.1503 said:

@"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

Edit: Also about Ventari Rev. Although i think talking about Ventari Rev here is irrelavant to the discussion, i think it should be known why Ventari Rev is absolute garbo...and the reason is because it's the clunkiest healing build ever in spvp. Just because it can throw up big green numbers, does not make it a useful build to play. Have you tried actually healing people with healing orbs? Or camping glint just to have permanent regeneration? it doesn't work at all in any practical sense (in spvp). And on top of it Ventari's already useless healing mechanics were nerfed anyway in February...

But believe me...if you nerf everything far enough, Ventari rev will EVENTUALLY take up the mantle of support...just gotta make everything else as garbo as it is, and you will consider it "overperforming" too.