Why are Conditions Always a Balance ISSUE in GW2? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why are Conditions Always a Balance ISSUE in GW2?

Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

If i can front load 8+ stacks of burn, what exactly is the point of physical damage?

The ratio of damage and sustain for condition builds compared to physical builds is ridiculous.

Why are condition builds always the problem childs. Elementalist, Mesmers, Necromancers, its always the same clases over and over again.

Conditions need to be normalized:
1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

Comments

  • I really dislike it. Due to the damage changes back in... June? Power builds feel so much less rewarding to play for more effort. It's so much easier to just dump a few condis, bait out a cleanse, then overload them once they don't have cleanses anymore.

    I don't know what exactly needs to be done to change condis in general to be more balanced but it really feels like something has to be done. Not even just to one specific class or trait, etc. It seems to be a bigger issue with how condis operate in general. It's so easy to overwhelm an opponent without them noticing right away and by the time they do it's usually too late.

    It's far worse in WvW. Last night I had a condi Rev jump on me and in about 4-5 seconds I had accrued 19 stacks of torment and they ticked 3 times in that timeframe to lead to me dying. Burning is just as bad. If you have 10 stacks of burn you have about 3 seconds to cleanse it or die.

    The issue with balance seems to be, if power creep happens and bursty power builds are meta then bunkers take the scene to counter and their counter seems to be condi, and condi's counter is power (but not always).

    So it's like a game of rock/paper/scissors but scissors can also cut rock to a certain extent. It seems a bit absurd when nearly every class can have a power build and a condi build and most the time it'll perform better as condi than power.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anomaly.7612 said:
    I really dislike it. Due to the damage changes back in... June? Power builds feel so much less rewarding to play for more effort. It's so much easier to just dump a few condis, bait out a cleanse, then overload them once they don't have cleanses anymore.

    I don't know what exactly needs to be done to change condis in general to be more balanced but it really feels like something has to be done. Not even just to one specific class or trait, etc. It seems to be a bigger issue with how condis operate in general. It's so easy to overwhelm an opponent without them noticing right away and by the time they do it's usually too late.

    It's far worse in WvW. Last night I had a condi Rev jump on me and in about 4-5 seconds I had accrued 19 stacks of torment and they ticked 3 times in that timeframe to lead to me dying. Burning is just as bad. If you have 10 stacks of burn you have about 3 seconds to cleanse it or die.

    The issue with balance seems to be, if power creep happens and bursty power builds are meta then bunkers take the scene to counter and their counter seems to be condi, and condi's counter is power (but not always).

    So it's like a game of rock/paper/scissors but scissors can also cut rock to a certain extent. It seems a bit absurd when nearly every class can have a power build and a condi build and most the time it'll perform better as condi than power.

    power builds wont let you live for 4s if you let them whack you, in fact most power builds has ~1,5-2s TTK on their combos. what is so hard in cleansing if you have 3s to do it? cleansing sigil alone is 3 in wvw, thats enough for most problems if not all

  • knite.1542knite.1542 Member ✭✭✭

    Based on what I have read on these forums, power damage is far superior to condition damage and there is so much condi clear in the game that conditions builds should never get kills, ever.

    If your team wins it's because of everyone else. If your team loses, blame the thief.
    ranger is OP but holo is more OP so its fine
    Why do this matter at all, you have people asking you why play so bad as fractal god?
    If they would pull that kitten on me, i would sue instantly. And i have enough time and money to finish that.
    Balance? More like a bunch of random nerfs done by interns.

  • Conditions are an issue because they are poorly implemented for a competitive game, similar to a lot of other things. They've rarely been really overpowered, its just bad design.

  • Its ALWAYS an issue because condi is designed for PvE.
    The current design flat out doesn't work with 9 classes in PvP. Its either too strong, too weak, or hyper overrepresented by 1 or 2 builds.
    Here is the main problem:
    1.Condi is never actually an issue if you build against it.
    2.if you build against it you're worse against all power builds which usually make up a higher % of played builds.
    3.you build against power builds but now have no defense against condi.
    4.you could look at what people are playing in each match and switch accordingly, except most classes and even specs have viable to usable alternatives, so you can't even do that.

    So in short, the less powerful condi builds are, the more annoying the 1 offmeta burn guard is,
    The more powerful condi builds are, its annoying to be forced to take so much condi-hate then not go up against them all the time.
    Its annoying.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    Because conditions in GW2 have three upsides to two downsides.

    Downsides: 1. Damage over time is inferior to instant damage 2. Can be removed.
    Upsides: 1. Damage is overall higher 2. Stat advantage ( Only 1 stat required VS 3 stats ) 3. Condi abilities generally have low tells and/or are heavily carried by uninteractive passives.

    The answer, IMO, is to get rid of either the second or third advantage. Those two together are creating the problem where every single condi bunker build generally makes the game worse due to low interactivity combined with low player-skill requirements.

    Anet needs to realize that the reason condi builds are so disliked has very little to do with how conditions actually work, but that the real reason is actually very similar to the reason most people do not like explosive entrance. EE is an instant cast passive that cannot be interrupted and automatically tags itself onto the next hit, which effectively turns the next attack -regardless of what that attack is- into a "must block/dodge". Many Condi abilities have a very similar bad design to them, such as "Deal X condi when you Deal Y Condi" passives, or "Instantly set foe on fire, zero cast time, zero animation", huge unblockable AoEs, and of course everyone favorite "Randomly do Z condi when hitting". Skill design like this makes condi builds annoying to fight, not because they are DOT, but because the damage often comes from invisible or unclear sources.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it works as planed if you check https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage
    Burning Factor is 0.155, so damage 2.6x more than from bleed or poison ..

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In the beginning, theres a slight chance that devs thought condis are going to be sth like 'additional damage, additional utility (eg. chill)' etc. Especially when you look at core classes, even necro was often going power.
    But as usual, ppl then noticed that hey - condis are OP, why would you even need to go for power, when you can go full condi and get so much passive damage? And so it started, age of easy2play builds, tank stats, passive damage, in some cases there was even spike (which should be available only to power, condis are DoTs).

    Why are condition builds always the problem childs. Elementalist, Mesmers, Necromancers, its always the same clases over and over again.

    Em, no? Condi rev, burn guardian, condi pistol teef, there are even condi warrior builds, annoying condi druids or condi engis. Each class has its own cancer tumor, smaller or bigger

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My guess is be cause conditions in gw2 dont exactly work like dots in many other mmo games.
    Where dots usually are also able to deal critical damage even if its not scaled to the same extent as direct strike damage which results in them having a lower base damage which also results in the caster having to build more offensively to get good damage which does not always allow them to be per say as tanky as some professions are when built to condi in gw2.

    Basically what @Master Ketsu.4569 said but they worded it better im happy they pointed this out.

  • Because for some reason they decided skills that should be doing "magic dmg" ( like ele lightning for example ) will essentially do physical dmg because magic doesn't exist in this game.

    So now we are in a situation where the armor tiers mean almost nothing and can be offset by the "amulet system" ( which is also bad ), and then decided to make condis fill the role of what magic should have been doing.

    So instead of the divide being physical vs caster, we have Power vs Bad mechanical design due to the nature of how skittles are being applied during combat ( lingering circles / air polluted radius, bad animations / passive traits etc ) being pushed as a "playstyle" and MAIN damage source across the board, instead of background support filler dps for slow casters.

    When at most the only class that maybe should be playing in such a way as now to the cancerous degree is necro.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    most op classes atm are power xD . only guardian can put so many burns and burn gurdian is 1 single condition basically that is so easy to clean /counter..
    yes if you dont pay attention to the condition on you and you dont make sure you have a way to clean burn you gonna die fast..

    if anything i think the only condition class that is a problem right now is condi necro..
    and the main issue for my opinion is how much fear it has and the fact that its fear actually does aloooot of damage
    its also abit too tanky in my opinion.. but its mostly the fear that let condi necro shut you down completely in 1v1

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Because conditions in GW2 have three upsides to two downsides.
    Downsides: 1. Damage over time is inferior to instant damage 2. Can be removed.
    Upsides: 1. Damage is overall higher 2. Stat advantage ( Only 1 stat required VS 3 stats ) 3. Condi abilities generally have low tells and/or are heavily carried by uninteractive passives.

    @TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:
    So now we are in a situation where the armor tiers mean almost nothing and can be offset by the "amulet system" ( which is also bad ), and then decided to make condis fill the role of what magic should have been doing.

    My guess is that it comes down to a mix of these 2.

    On one hand it is true that armor clases mean next to nothing, Heavy armor amounts to a 10% damage reduction over Light armor and to make matters worse Conditions completely ignore that next to negglishible difference. To Make matters even WORSE, classes seem to be designed as if the difference in Armor Type actually Matters.
    Take Elementalist and Warrior or Guardian, the elementalist takes only 10% more physical damage, but its sustain is way way way higher than the other 2.

    On the other hand The stat advantage is truly ridiculous. 1 stat vs 3, there is no way around it, in wvw with greater stat flexibility this is exacerbated even higher.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    They took away condi tank stats AND expertise and yet somehow we're still complaining about stat advantage on condi builds? Seriously, how is this still a thing?

    They removed Power tank stats and Concentration and yet somehow that kitten matters.
    @noiwk.2760 You need Power builds to be able to kill the tanky condition builds who are also good at managing conditions since they usually do not lose out too much by dipping into defensives, so the current supposedly OP power builds are actually anti condition builds for example the support warrior is running kitten ton of cleanse, Reaper is running a full support traitline to deal with conditions and renegades switch to Jallis for the sweet sweet cleanses. If I remember correctly the bunker condi herald was a full brick at the sides with good kill potential and it was imposable to beat by power or condi, they nerfed the power defenses so it could be killed by power builds but it was still immune to conditions, then they nerfed the resistance uptime cause it was kinda kitten to be able to fully shut down condi builds just by existing.

  • Avatar.3568Avatar.3568 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The best best and the broken builds are based arround power, condi thief might be the only Exception, but it's in terms of what it does mostly. Similar to power thief (kill while You Plus fast)
    Condi builds can be in lower leagues very strong, but there is enaugh counterplay not only condi cleanses, you can los and not move(torment), run away and don't attack (confusion), not standing in aoes that gives conditions, dodging the attacks is obviously working too.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    They took away condi tank stats AND expertise and yet somehow we're still complaining about stat advantage on condi builds? Seriously, how is this still a thing?

    They removed Power tank stats and Concentration and yet somehow that kitten matters.
    @noiwk.2760 You need Power builds to be able to kill the tanky condition builds who are also good at managing conditions since they usually do not lose out too much by dipping into defensives, so the current supposedly OP power builds are actually anti condition builds for example the support warrior is running kitten ton of cleanse, Reaper is running a full support traitline to deal with conditions and renegades switch to Jallis for the sweet sweet cleanses. If I remember correctly the bunker condi herald was a full brick at the sides with good kill potential and it was imposable to beat by power or condi, they nerfed the power defenses so it could be killed by power builds but it was still immune to conditions, then they nerfed the resistance uptime cause it was kinda kitten to be able to fully shut down condi builds just by existing.

    i dont complain about conditions.. if you read my post i said that power builds are the op right now not conditions. .. renegade is weak to condi unless you take that 7% reduce condition damage per stack which build up to easy 35% reduce condi damage . together with dwarf 20% its 55% reduce condition damage. inside kella healing skill its goes further . but again by doing so you lose 25 might that you can keep pretty much all the time so heavy hit on damage..
    burn guardian does craqzy damage while being tanky however its 1 condition so even a sigil can handle it.
    reaper.. dont have much how to deal with conditions.. and i will argue that unholy trait have been nerfed so much so that reaper is possibly better off runing spite and relay on his support for sustain and clean. the cd on axce skills/focus really make different especially since it comes with 10% more damage against enemies without boons and focus 5 remove 3 boons and chil of death can remove additional 3 . tons of might from 2 traits reaper's might and shponed power . and close to death.. is 20% increase damage agaisnt enemies who are 50% health or lower.. is amazing especially with reaper massive damage to finish low enemies. while that whole blood magic traitline offer reaper now .. not much if im honest.

    anyways .. back to the real subject sorry mate.. but core condi necro is abit op atm.. its very tanky it has stupid high damage (not to mention it can burst people just like reaper with Lich form) which isnt ok if you ask me .. because of carrion amu.
    and then comes fear.. and spectral ring.. if you dont have teleport theres no way to avoid spectral ring.
    and core necro got trait that increase an already high fear duration skill 2 seconds > goes into 3 seconds fear. on shroud with fairly low cd. staff 5 is more fear. spectral ring
    is more.. and if this isnt enough their fair does damage more than burning.. and aside from stun break you can not clean it ! so yes.. the fear on core condi necro must be nerfed ^^ aside from that condition builds are fine

  • why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance.

    And guess what was before those condi changes? Exactly the same complaints. No matter how strong or weak condis actually are - the complaints are always the same. And it is and never has been a balance issue - it is an issue with player perception.
    There are always some outliers, but overall condi and power dmg are pretty balanced. If anything, power is and has been stronger by trend.

  • @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance.

    And guess what was before those condi changes? Exactly the same complaints. No matter how strong or weak condis actually are - the complaints are always the same. And it is and never has been a balance issue - it is an issue with player perception.
    There are always some outliers, but overall condi and power dmg are pretty balanced. If anything, power is and has been stronger by trend.

    the big difference is that after the condi update the complaints hold more merit.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance.

    And guess what was before those condi changes? Exactly the same complaints. No matter how strong or weak condis actually are - the complaints are always the same. And it is and never has been a balance issue - it is an issue with player perception.
    There are always some outliers, but overall condi and power dmg are pretty balanced. If anything, power is and has been stronger by trend.

    the big difference is that after the condi update the complaints hold more merit.

    broken cloak is right twice a day

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    why? its simple: pve. our pve overlords complained about condis not being viable. true enough. biggest of all the brain moves: anet removes caps in all modes and never considers why that would be a really bad move. result: years of bad balance.

    And guess what was before those condi changes? Exactly the same complaints. No matter how strong or weak condis actually are - the complaints are always the same. And it is and never has been a balance issue - it is an issue with player perception.
    There are always some outliers, but overall condi and power dmg are pretty balanced. If anything, power is and has been stronger by trend.

    the big difference is that after the condi update the complaints hold more merit.

    broken cloak is right twice a day

    The real question is...what about broken capes?

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2020

    Viper amulet should be added back into the game. I also would not mind seeing something like:

    +1000 power
    +500 vitality
    +500 expertise
    +1000 condition damage

    +1000 power
    +500 toughness
    +500 expertise
    +500 condition damage

    Essentially the equivalent of Demo/Marauder amulets for condition builds. Allowing for more aggressive build paths for condition builds with tankiness on par with power builds.

    Alternatively, if condis are an issue, consider buffing sigil of cleansing to 2 conditions per weapon swap from 1, helping builds with limited access to cleanse find a better middle ground without cleansing sigil being quite as powerful as it is in WvW.

  • I think conditions are way underpowered compared to power damage tbh

    I also think where they go wrong and why so many people dislike them is because they're annoying. Condition builds are usually(not always) pretty faceroll, evasive, slippery, and/or spam a bunch of things people generally dislike seeing spammed such as CC, blocks, evades, stealth. This doesn't make them overpowered by any stretch, just annoying.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    Viper amulet should be added back into the game. I also would not mind seeing something like:

    Gotta agree with this too. It should have never been removed, being the higher risk hybrid damage option. That's how conditions should work imo; as extra DOT and utility for doing damage, and landing certain skills.

    If anything I think it should have been buffed with more condition damage/expertise for braving a more risky option for the weaker damage type. Also agree that Demolisher/Marauder alternatives for condi damage could work well there.

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.