Ele has no real profession mechanic meaning — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Ele has no real profession mechanic meaning

I was playing fractals today with my condi build, switched to air expecting to go faster , but i didn't have any traits so it didn't.
then it hit me : core elementalist has no profession mechanic.

Other classes get stuff like bonus damage, cc or heal on demand, or even a whole 2nd health bar, but elementalist's "mechanic" is 4 weapons to swap instead of 2. This is balanced by the fact that ele skills do half the stuff that skills from other classes do, sometimes even less (including damage).
Not only that, but 4 of those 20 skills are auto attacks, and every build uses mostly 2 attunements, meaning there are usually a lot of skills that you won't ever use because they don't do what you want them to do, or just because you just don't have the time to fit 20 skills in your rotation.

For comparison : Condi Tempest uses 9 unique weapon skills in it's rotation, while Condi Chrono uses 6. They both have the same dps at 38 K. (source : snowcrows)

This is mainly a complaint about core ele, as tempest has overloads and weaver skills 3 are on par with other classes skills (aka real skills), so the specializations have mechanics.

I was thinking that maybe we could at least move the minor adept traits in each element specialization (150 power in fire, soothing mist in earth, 25% speed in air, -7% dmg in earth) to be baseline, so something actually happens when you switch attunements ? This wouldn't solve the disbalance between core and professions, but it would at least solve the issue of a class with no profession mechanic, by making your attunements swap do something besides being a simple weapon swap.

Tldr : unless you consider having an extra trait line as a profession mechanic (as in core ele vs weaver/tempest), core ele has no profession mechanic

Comments

  • I agree with you.
    Swap Attunements isn't a real mechanic, you gain nothing with that.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't even swap elements on my Elementalists, unless I want to be faster in no-mount zones.
    I always camp Fire in combat.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't even swap elements on my Elementalists, unless I want to be faster in no-mount zones.
    I always camp Fire in combat.

    Maybe thats why you dont like t4 fractals.

    Only 8-9 skills are used in dps rotations but you could use other skills for utility. Going from fire -> earth to stack might. or earth/water for evades etc. You use most of the skills in pvp.
    Definitely think that this is a mechanic. Double the skills of any other profession besides engi. Most of them arent weak anymore.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    I don't even swap elements on my Elementalists, unless I want to be faster in no-mount zones.
    I always camp Fire in combat.

    Maybe thats why you dont like t4 fractals.

    Only 8-9 skills are used in dps rotations but you could use other skills for utility. Going from fire -> earth to stack might. or earth/water for evades etc. You use most of the skills in pvp.
    Definitely think that this is a mechanic. Double the skills of any other profession besides engi. Most of them arent weak anymore.

    I never even did fractals with Elementalist.
    And Elementalist has nothing to do with the bloated enemy HP and damage values and and the absolutely stupid instability combinations that can occur.

  • That's the price you pay for versatility. The way I see it, the Ele's mechanic is permanently a hybrid build, capable of doing direct damage, condi damage, and healing all at the same time. In theory it is OP, but practice in those things don't work without allocating a lot of attribute points into them.

    In PVE it doesn't have much of an impact, but in PVP the ele's hybrid nature can be quite scary. It waxes and wanes with the balance patches, but Celestial Ele and Marshall Ele have gained infamy for how dangerous they are.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Having 20 skills on your skill bar is profession mechanics, more meaningful than engie's, warrior, or even thief, as for lack of rotation between elements dont assume everyone play the class just like u do, because most builds there do 3 attune their rotation

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    I agree.
    Look at other classes like engi or guardian. You have 5 utility skills, 4 profession mechanic skills, and 10 weapon skills (5 skills x2 weapons). That's 19 skills, tho 2 are auto attacks so let's say 17 skills.
    Eles have 5 utilities and 20 weapon skills, but 4 are auto-attacks so 21. So it's only an advantage of 4 skills. However each attunement has a specialty (except arguably air which is a mix of mediocre damage and cc). So if you are full dps, you won't use water and use half air and earth, so that's 10 weapon skills with 3 being auto attacks. If your are healer, you only have water which is 4+1 auto. So really you are at a deficit. If you broaden and be a jack-of-all-trades then you are subpar at everything.
    I use all 10 weapon skills and shroud skills in my reaper and core necro but less than half on my staff weaver.

  • Tuco.2419Tuco.2419 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    I'd be pretty interested to see an actions per minute (APM) breakdown of the different common specs.

    I've never played any class but the elementalist but I can't imagine any other class or spec having more APM than the fire condition weaver. Changing attunements every 3 seconds, dodging frequently for evasive arcana, keeping almost every weapon skill in three attunements on cooldown, keeping all three utilities on cooldown. At least we don't have to hit our healing ability :D

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    I agree with you.
    Swap Attunements isn't a real mechanic, you gain nothing with that.

    huh. How is this not a "real mechanic"? How do you "gain nothing with that"? Which class mechanics do you consider being "real" and by what standards?

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @JohnWater.5760 said:
    I agree with you.
    Swap Attunements isn't a real mechanic, you gain nothing with that.

    huh. How is this not a "real mechanic"? How do you "gain nothing with that"? Which class mechanics do you consider being "real" and by what standards?

    Tbh it does feel a bit lackluster considering that it's one of the few core class mechanics with drawbacks. You have more skills, but they have lower impact (for the most part, not every single skill) compared to other classes. The only other class I can think of is necro who, while having a pretty good mechanic, suffers from the lack of mobility and stunbreaks which somewhat balances out. Rev can maybe be put in there as well due to the energy system, but all other classes have actual mechanics that are functional and work like additions to weapon+utility skills, not their replacement.

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  • fuzzyp.6295fuzzyp.6295 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    While its not a mechanic in the direct sense, I'd argue the what sets Elementalist apart from Tempest or Weaver is its flexibility with attunements. With Tempest you need to camp in your attunements to use your overloads and with Weaver you are constantly rotating between two attunements. With Elementalist you have the ability to attune to whichever one you want on demand* and there is no restrictions. If you need CC, you can swap to Air. Need a heal? Swap to Water. There is no thought of "I just need to wait 2 more seconds for my overload" or "I gotta rotate through two water attunements so I can get to dagger heal." Futhermore, Tempest and Weaver are both pushed towards extremes in their job roles. Tempest is a supportive auramancer and Weaver is a high DPS machine. While you can be supportive or glassy on Ele, you just will not match the numbers the elite specs can dish out. In turn however, you have your freedom to select a different third line that can add a little bit more well rounded-ness to your Ele as a whole (for example in PvP, Eles don't have to worry about giving up Water and Arcane, they can take both on core). This plays into the Elementalist's original design: a jack of all trades, master of none. You can do anything you want easily, but its just not the best.

    There are a couple problems with this design philosphy though. Firstly, PvE you never want to be able to 'do everything.' PvE is either Full Zerk DPSor Support. Having that flexibility hurts the core Elementalist in PvE because of it. But on the flip side in PvP, as professions are becoming more and more defined, the Elementalist struggles to preform at the same level as newer specs because they just straight up outclass it. Ele needs to be balanced around everything, and that just doesn't work well in current PvP builds.

    If the identity of Elementalist is flexibility, Anet really needs to address this with some fixes for core ele. I think have the attunements of core ele reduced to maybe around 5-6 seconds instead of 9-10 seconds when you are specc'd in Core Elemenatlist, or perhaps including a sort of 5th attunement Arcane that resets your attunement charge rates. I think that could give it a bit more tools to work with while keeping the identity of the Elementalist in place.

    Or we can just like, I dunno, un-nerf staff and make Core Ele the glass cannon it probably should be instead of Weaver. :cookie:

    *as long as you're attunement isn't on cooldown :expressionless:

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    @Tuco.2419 said:
    I'd be pretty interested to see an actions per minute (APM) breakdown of the different common specs.

    I've never played any class but the elementalist but I can't imagine any other class or spec having more APM than the fire condition weaver. Changing attunements every 3 seconds, dodging frequently for evasive arcana, keeping almost every weapon skill in three attunements on cooldown, keeping all three utilities on cooldown. At least we don't have to hit our healing ability :D

    Condi engi has double the apm of weaver. That spec gives you carpal tunnel.

    Weaver traitline consists of almost only dps traits. Core ele will never beat it in that area.

  • Tuco.2419Tuco.2419 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Tuco.2419 said:
    I'd be pretty interested to see an actions per minute (APM) breakdown of the different common specs.

    I've never played any class but the elementalist but I can't imagine any other class or spec having more APM than the fire condition weaver. Changing attunements every 3 seconds, dodging frequently for evasive arcana, keeping almost every weapon skill in three attunements on cooldown, keeping all three utilities on cooldown. At least we don't have to hit our healing ability :D

    Condi engi has double the apm of weaver. That spec gives you carpal tunnel.

    Weaver traitline consists of almost only dps traits. Core ele will never bit it in that area.

    Like I said I only know anything about the ele class so I just looked up the condi engineer rotation.

    Holy hell. It's like a coked up version of

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It has a profession mechanic but its not atument swap its the atuments them self. The problem is all of the atuments them self on the wepon do not vary enofe to call them there own effect and with the lack of fire lighting earth water magic dmg in gw2 makes it next to worthless out side of animation effects.

    There are utility that DO help with this profession mechanic but often they are so week they do not add enofe to the game play of the ele class so often you just find ele using the "lock in" utility. Now if all utility would changes base of ele atument much like its weapons skills then it would be a real used profession mechanic.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Bit of an random ideal why not let core ele keep passive effects from atument trait lines regress of what atument they are in from moment to moment. The Minor traits.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @vardeleanu.8972 said:
    I was playing fractals today with my condi build, switched to air expecting to go faster , but i didn't have any traits so it didn't.
    then it hit me : core elementalist has no profession mechanic.

    Other classes get stuff like bonus damage, cc or heal on demand, or even a whole 2nd health bar, but elementalist's "mechanic" is 4 weapons to swap instead of 2. This is balanced by the fact that ele skills do half the stuff that skills from other classes do, sometimes even less (including damage).
    Not only that, but 4 of those 20 skills are auto attacks, and every build uses mostly 2 attunements, meaning there are usually a lot of skills that you won't ever use because they don't do what you want them to do, or just because you just don't have the time to fit 20 skills in your rotation.

    For comparison : Condi Tempest uses 9 unique weapon skills in it's rotation, while Condi Chrono uses 6. They both have the same dps at 38 K. (source : snowcrows)

    This is mainly a complaint about core ele, as tempest has overloads and weaver skills 3 are on par with other classes skills (aka real skills), so the specializations have mechanics.

    I was thinking that maybe we could at least move the minor adept traits in each element specialization (150 power in fire, soothing mist in earth, 25% speed in air, -7% dmg in earth) to be baseline, so something actually happens when you switch attunements ? This wouldn't solve the disbalance between core and professions, but it would at least solve the issue of a class with no profession mechanic, by making your attunements swap do something besides being a simple weapon swap.

    Tldr : unless you consider having an extra trait line as a profession mechanic (as in core ele vs weaver/tempest), core ele has no profession mechanic

    Kinda agree, attunements are not necessary to run a "four elements" kind of theme. Few alternatives:

    • Each weapon is thematically locked to an element. This is my favorite alternative, assuming we give each element a clear combat role (fire for condition damage, water for healing, etc).
    • Each weapon has different skills from different elements all at once. We already have this with slot skills, so it's not like it would feel weird or anything.
    • Attunements no longer produce new weapon skills per attunement, instead they just give the same skills a few different effects. Reduces weapon skills from 20 to 5, but doesn't clear the mechanic bar for a new mechanic.

    Following the first alternative, this could be the new list of weapons:

    • Fire: Axe/Axe, Greatsword.
    • Water: Dagger/Dagger, Shortbow.
    • Air: Scepter/Focus, Staff.
    • Earth: Mace/Mace, Hammer.

    Both the Warhorn and the Sword from the elite specializations would have a special ability, where their skills change depending on the element of the other weapon. So for example, wielding sword/axe would unlock the fire variant for sword skills, while mace/warhorn would unlock the earth variant for warhorn skills, making both elite specialization weapons work with any combination.

    No matter how I look at it, I'd love to sacrifice the current mechanic in exchange of weapon swap. Being locked to a single weapon set has been the elementalist's bane since release.

    Still, no idea on what kind of mechanic attunements could be replaced with.