Revenants are harassing PvP for 6 years now - lets talk about some effective nerfs — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Revenants are harassing PvP for 6 years now - lets talk about some effective nerfs

snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
edited November 14, 2020 in PVP

All current Revenant specs (Renegade, Herald and even Core Rev) overperform with a combination of high AoE damage, both condition and power, coupled with unholy movement and sustain in form of boons like protection & resistance, damage avoiding skills which are pretty much spammable, low cooldown blocks, and two kitten heal skills. The problem that arises is that Revenants pretty much can freely choose whether they run offensive or defensive stats without losing too much on the opposite end - meaning they can pack high damage Berserker/Demolisher builds without getting too squishy or extremely defensive, tanky Mender/Sage builds without loosing too much damage.

Here a solution - Revenant sustain needs further nerfing. Not only should alot of their beloved defensive traits be toned down and the cost + effectiveness of damage avoiding & movement enhancing skills be adjusted - using one heal skill should simply put the other one on cooldown, it even goes without saying - 2 heal skills was a problem even before all damage modifiers went down in February - now that the damage is low it is even more broken. I feel not considering that is a big oversight on ArenaNets end when they patched the game in Feburary. Using an already good heal skill in Soothing Stones or hitting the restart button known as Glint Heal and walking into already casted AoE’s should not reward you with another heal skill right after
As long as Revenants are able to be (semi-) tanks, no matter which amulet they are running, they will dominate each and every meta

Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

Comments

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    i think herald is legit fairly weak.. already it can only do +1 and isnt even the best at it..
    it has good burst but low damage overall. the sustain got trashed..
    when it comes to renegade i agree.. renegade is amazingly strong but i think there are bigger issues xD

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think herald is legit fairly weak.. already it can only do +1 and isnt even the best at it..
    it has good burst but low damage overall. the sustain got trashed..
    when it comes to renegade i agree.. renegade is amazingly strong but i think there are bigger issues xD

    No man, if a Herald hits like a Berserker Warrior (and even worse through ports) he also should go down as fast as a Berserker warrior

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:
    i think herald is legit fairly weak.. already it can only do +1 and isnt even the best at it..
    it has good burst but low damage overall. the sustain got trashed..
    when it comes to renegade i agree.. renegade is amazingly strong but i think there are bigger issues xD

    No man, if a Herald hits like a Berserker Warrior (and even worse through ports) he also should go down as fast as a Berserker warrior

    i disagree because the issue isnt herald.. the issue is warrior being trash right now..
    i dont mean to be harsh but its a fact that warrior is dead right now.. the "cc= no damage"
    hit warrior too hard and warrior isnt even playable right now.. lets be honest aside from heal (support spellbreaker)
    or support core warrior.. no one really play warrior.. and warrior is actually the best support in game right now.
    its a sad situation for warrior and i think it will be sad if herald will be dead like warrior because herald support isnt even a thing people will jsut stop playing herald.
    also herald isnt so hard to kill.. its not tanky but it does have some evasion kits like staff and like sword 3 ult can save his life and his amazing healing skill..
    but on its core its even more glass cannon than wariror but it has more sustain
    but again herald is fine but warrior is way too weak and its a known issue

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Rev/Herald is fine, all forms of it.

    Ren right now is just plainly overperforming in too many categories to let it slide any further than the next patch. You'll hear a lot of conjecture on this topic concerning what should be nerfed yada yada. IMO though, it's the taunt. The taunt makes that entire build work. The taunt is what makes it dangerous. If it weren't for that frequent powerful 1200 range taunt, the build would be easily kited and it would be balanced.

    I feel like you say Herald is fine, because Renegade is worse. Once Renegades are done Heralds will do the same harassment to the community. Renegade just gets played more often, because it is more convenient. They share the same characteristic of high damage + high sustain through the mentioned defensive capabilities. I remember times before Renegade took off where teams packed 2/3 Heralds and that was just as bad. If he is a tank, he should do damage like a tank - if he is glasscanon he should go down like a glasscanon

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Rev/Herald is fine, all forms of it.

    Ren right now is just plainly overperforming in too many categories to let it slide any further than the next patch. You'll hear a lot of conjecture on this topic concerning what should be nerfed yada yada. IMO though, it's the taunt. The taunt makes that entire build work. The taunt is what makes it dangerous. If it weren't for that frequent powerful 1200 range taunt, the build would be easily kited and it would be balanced.

    I feel like you say Herald is fine, because Renegade is worse. Once Renegades are done Heralds will do the same harassment to the community. Renegade just gets played more often, because it is more convenient. They share the same characteristic of high damage + high sustain through the mentioned defensive capabilities. I remember times before Renegade took off where teams packed 2/3 Heralds and that was just as bad. If he is a tank, he should do damage like a tank - if he is glasscanon he should go down like a glasscanon

    herald is fine because its just fine.. its not even that good anymore..

  • People still play Core Rev?????? Shao! What shenanigans are you pulling??????

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Herald is still pretty strong - however, it lacks a place in the current meta. That's why is is seldomly seen. I struggles with those heavy bunkery teamfights with random CC (Tempest and now Healbreaker). Thief does a way better job with those with all the unblockables and, yes, better mobility to play aroung them of course. Renegade with a AoE heavy, ranged option on sides probably doesn't help either.

    So while it is not OP in the current meta, it will reemerge once the bunkery teamfights get reduced. It also still keeps all those bunker breakers in check together with thif - heavy zerker builds could break Tempest/Healbreaker, but still simply melt to those two, which in turn makes the whole meta slower. Thinking of it, they hardcountering those bunker breakers kind of making themselves unviable... :lol:

    TLDR: Herald is fine when looking at the meta, but still strong. Not on the top of the list of necessary changes currently though. Renegade though does need tweaks.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    People still play Core Rev?????? Shao! What shenanigans are you pulling??????

    Not only are they, but I already had ranked matches against Top 20 guys in high Plat using Core Rev last season in EU

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Both classes are fine. Leave them alone and try to adjust your play style accordingly. This mindset always helps me personally when I find some class "OP".

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Both classes are fine. Leave them alone and try to adjust your play style accordingly. This mindset always helps me personally when I find some class "OP".

    But it’s easier to post on a forum to ask for nerfs than adjust.

    I mean c’mon, they’re asking for core rev nerfs.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Both classes are fine. Leave them alone and try to adjust your play style accordingly. This mindset always helps me personally when I find some class "OP".

    Chronobunker from seasons 1-5 is fine, pls bring it back.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons
    25.02.2020 edit - Nevermind, now I spam only 29 skill-buttons

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Widmo.3186 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Both classes are fine. Leave them alone and try to adjust your play style accordingly. This mindset always helps me personally when I find some class "OP".

    Chronobunker from seasons 1-5 is fine, pls bring it back.

    Yes, I don't mind. We need to bring back diversity.

  • @snoow.1694 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    People still play Core Rev?????? Shao! What shenanigans are you pulling??????

    Not only are they, but I already had ranked matches against Top 20 guys in high Plat using Core Rev last season in EU

    Okay, so in what ways does this justify nerfing legend heals? You realize that Rev has never had any way of reducing the CD of their heals besides alacrity, right?
    Every heal is 30 second CD and most are situational. Can't do damage? Shiro will barely heal you. People stop attacking you during Glint heal? Barely heals you. Aren't running Corruption? Poison neuters Mallyx's heal even though it's supposed to be boosted by condi. Ventari? LOL. The only truly consistent ones are Jalis and Kalla, and unsurprisingly they can make you pretty bulky when put together because they actually work without hinderance, but all of them are 30 seconds, no exceptions. This is the only situation where double heals could be an issue but Jalis/Kalla still gets dumpstered by condi. Perma weakness from DBT is what needs to be addressed on this build, not healing.

    Nobody runs shield except condi revs, staff barely heals anymore, Battle Scars is trickle healing and cuts into damage too much, nobody runs the regen trait in Herald. There are ways of getting smaller heals but they're just that, small heals that are only effective in drawn out fights.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guardians, Warriors, Rangers, Thieves, Engineers, Necromancers and Mesmers. are harassing PvP for eight years now - lets talk about some effective nerfs

    Everything, except maybe Elementalists, has the possibility to over-perform.
    On top of that, Revenants are way more limited in what they can do and how much they can do, by the Legend and Energy systems.

    I don't think Revenant deserves any nerfs, other than maybe preventing the stacking of Renegade spirits.
    But I don't know whether that's technically possible or not.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m a fairly bad rev, though my mechanics, rotations , game knowledge etc are probably pretty high level, but I kindof agree- rev when it’s viable is usually loaded since it has 2 sets of heals + utilities which even if they cannot pick them are all very good and standard. Tone down the defense to compensate would be a good option imo and maybe it’ll force ppl to play fun builds like power shiro with sword/shield and staff even if renegade damage is still over the top

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Guardians, Warriors, Rangers, Thieves, Engineers, Necromancers and Mesmers. are harassing PvP for eight years now - lets talk about some effective nerfs

    Everything, except maybe Elementalists, has the possibility to over-perform.
    On top of that, Revenants are way more limited in what they can do and how much they can do, by the Legend and Energy systems.

    I don't think Revenant deserves any nerfs, other than maybe preventing the stacking of Renegade spirits.
    But I don't know whether that's technically possible or not.

    It makes me sad when you mention ele.... Very true through. And guess why? Because the class was already nerfed to the ground - first fire weaver, and now tempest is being made irrelevant because how broken healSPB is. So yeah...let's nerf more classes, shall we?

  • If you think a class is overpowered, how about instead of hopping on the nerf train we have a calm and collected discussion on how to buff the other classes to have at least 1 build on par? :)

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    If you think a class is overpowered, how about instead of hopping on the nerf train we have a calm and collected discussion on how to buff the other classes to have at least 1 build on par? :)

    Asking for BUFFs or reworks backfires terribly and it ends up in PVE specks cause Arenanet doesn't give a kitten about PVP usually. Case and point Berserker.

  • CutesySylveon.8290CutesySylveon.8290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:
    If you think a class is overpowered, how about instead of hopping on the nerf train we have a calm and collected discussion on how to buff the other classes to have at least 1 build on par? :)

    Asking for BUFFs or reworks backfires terribly and it ends up in PVE specks cause Arenanet doesn't give a kitten about PVP usually. Case and point Berserker.

    Berserker was fun for a while before they declawed it.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    let them be powerful and superstrong. We have mmr system, so you can not worry about how powerful specific class. The system will get properly team for you, and will change rate multiple your skill and chossen class. So reve can be 5x stronger, it not change our gameplay.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2020

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:
    Asking for BUFFs or reworks backfires terribly and it ends up in PVE specks cause Arenanet doesn't give a kitten about PVP usually. Case and point Berserker.

    Berserker was fun for a while before they declawed it.

    I don't know anything about PvE, but in PvP I feel like this is true. The zerker buff actually made it more fun to play for a while especially since it came with the tradeoffs for that elite spec.

    Nerfs aren't bad like that, when they're made in tandem with buffs or simultaneously exist as both a nerf and a buff at once.

    Just nerfing and removing options/playstyles is boring. 😴

    Ranked DuoQ 😡👉🚪
    Patch-culture is awful
    Nerfs should be reserved for extreme cases and only done in creative ways that make the game more interesting to play and watch.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:
    let them be powerful and superstrong. We have mmr system, so you can not worry about how powerful specific class. The system will get properly team for you, and will change rate multiple your skill and chossen class. So reve can be 5x stronger, it not change our gameplay.

    This would be an interesting approach, since they are unable or unwilling to balance classes, have MR be character bound instead of account bound.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    This would be an interesting approach, since they are unable or unwilling to balance classes, have MR be character bound instead of account bound.

    it is already done if you look more wide..

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You know you are in a rev-complaint thread made by someone who doesn't actually know how to play rev when the major complaint is, of all things, "MUH TWO HEALSZ!!11oneone!11".

    Bruh. Go and actually read those heal skills. The actual slot-heals on rev mostly just inferior versions of heals on other classes on longer cooldowns. For instance, Soothing Stone is an inferior version of Warriors mending with less healing and a longer cooldown in addition to costing energy. Mallyx heal is a bad version of consume conditions. etc. That is why Rev has two heals. It's just part of the profession mechanic of having two sets of utilities, balanced out by having them be worse versions of skills that already existed before HoT was released.

    The actual things making Rev strong right now are:
    1. Vindication is OP
    2. Quickness in PvP is OP, and this is a bigger problem on Rev than most other classes.
    3. The base lifesteal numbers on Ofela could be toned down from 328 to 228-ish
    4. Inspiring reinforcement should be reverted back to 1.5 seconds of stability ( Was buffed to 3 seconds October 01, 2019 )

  • @noiwk.2760 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Rev/Herald is fine, all forms of it.

    Ren right now is just plainly overperforming in too many categories to let it slide any further than the next patch. You'll hear a lot of conjecture on this topic concerning what should be nerfed yada yada. IMO though, it's the taunt. The taunt makes that entire build work. The taunt is what makes it dangerous. If it weren't for that frequent powerful 1200 range taunt, the build would be easily kited and it would be balanced.

    I feel like you say Herald is fine, because Renegade is worse. Once Renegades are done Heralds will do the same harassment to the community. Renegade just gets played more often, because it is more convenient. They share the same characteristic of high damage + high sustain through the mentioned defensive capabilities. I remember times before Renegade took off where teams packed 2/3 Heralds and that was just as bad. If he is a tank, he should do damage like a tank - if he is glasscanon he should go down like a glasscanon

    herald is fine because its just fine.. its not even that good anymore..

    Only in low ranks heral rev is fine, try play it in plat + a good rev will kill you in seconds and survive everything.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You know you are in a rev-complaint thread made by someone who doesn't actually know how to play rev when the major complaint is, of all things, "MUH TWO HEALSZ!!11oneone!11".

    Bruh. Go and actually read those heal skills. The actual slot-heals on rev mostly just inferior versions of heals on other classes on longer cooldowns. For instance, Soothing Stone is an inferior version of Warriors mending with less healing and a longer cooldown in addition to costing energy. Mallyx heal is a bad version of consume conditions. etc. That is why Rev has two heals. It's just part of the profession mechanic of having two sets of utilities, balanced out by having them be worse versions of skills that already existed before HoT was released.

    The actual things making Rev strong right now are:
    1. Vindication is OP
    2. Quickness in PvP is OP, and this is a bigger problem on Rev than most other classes.
    3. The base lifesteal numbers on Ofela could be toned down from 328 to 228-ish
    4. Inspiring reinforcement should be reverted back to 1.5 seconds of stability ( Was buffed to 3 seconds October 01, 2019 )

    Uhmmm they are worst than other heals by design. Its becuase they have acess to 2 heals at anytime unlike those other heals you mention where the class can only have 1.

  • @Exile.8160 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You know you are in a rev-complaint thread made by someone who doesn't actually know how to play rev when the major complaint is, of all things, "MUH TWO HEALSZ!!11oneone!11".

    Bruh. Go and actually read those heal skills. The actual slot-heals on rev mostly just inferior versions of heals on other classes on longer cooldowns. For instance, Soothing Stone is an inferior version of Warriors mending with less healing and a longer cooldown in addition to costing energy. Mallyx heal is a bad version of consume conditions. etc. That is why Rev has two heals. It's just part of the profession mechanic of having two sets of utilities, balanced out by having them be worse versions of skills that already existed before HoT was released.

    The actual things making Rev strong right now are:
    1. Vindication is OP
    2. Quickness in PvP is OP, and this is a bigger problem on Rev than most other classes.
    3. The base lifesteal numbers on Ofela could be toned down from 328 to 228-ish
    4. Inspiring reinforcement should be reverted back to 1.5 seconds of stability ( Was buffed to 3 seconds October 01, 2019 )

    Uhmmm they are worst than other heals by design. Its becuase they have acess to 2 heals at anytime unlike those other heals you mention where the class can only have 1.

    That's the trade-off. They get two but they're always inferior versions of other heals. Should they only get 1 at a time while having worse versions?

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Exile.8160 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You know you are in a rev-complaint thread made by someone who doesn't actually know how to play rev when the major complaint is, of all things, "MUH TWO HEALSZ!!11oneone!11".

    Bruh. Go and actually read those heal skills. The actual slot-heals on rev mostly just inferior versions of heals on other classes on longer cooldowns. For instance, Soothing Stone is an inferior version of Warriors mending with less healing and a longer cooldown in addition to costing energy. Mallyx heal is a bad version of consume conditions. etc. That is why Rev has two heals. It's just part of the profession mechanic of having two sets of utilities, balanced out by having them be worse versions of skills that already existed before HoT was released.

    The actual things making Rev strong right now are:
    1. Vindication is OP
    2. Quickness in PvP is OP, and this is a bigger problem on Rev than most other classes.
    3. The base lifesteal numbers on Ofela could be toned down from 328 to 228-ish
    4. Inspiring reinforcement should be reverted back to 1.5 seconds of stability ( Was buffed to 3 seconds October 01, 2019 )

    Uhmmm they are worst than other heals by design. Its becuase they have acess to 2 heals at anytime unlike those other heals you mention where the class can only have 1.

    the dragon healing is very good ^^ again not op but really good.. if you already active the facet the healing skill is instant
    and it convert alot of damage into healing its 3 seconds in which you dont take damage but also heal to full life and as i said its instant !
    not to mention if people see that you already activated the facet many of them will be careful about attacking you .
    the shiro healing is not amazing for sustain but its not as bad as some people might claim.. if you use healing with sword 3 it can heal quite abit while you are on the frame time and cant be attacked its just not the type of healing skillt o burst heal you when you gonna die.. but its not bad.. not to mention the amount of damage this healing skill do is amazing ^^ dwarf healing isnt too bad either yes its not as good as others but it does heal around 5.5-6k clean 5 conditions and give you 5 seconds retaliation its quite a good healing skill. not as good as traited mender for warrior but its not bad. overall .. i still dont see problem with herald/rev.
    i do however think renegade is insanely strong but i think he is manageable im having worse time with the perm immoblize druid and with the stupid mobility of thieves
    and with stealth..

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The only reasons Rev was ever relevant were:

    • PvE Herald originally granted a passive 50% bonus to boon duration for any party (when this was nerfed, the class was basically replaced by a rune set).
    • PvP Herald is literally just Thief with a better Defiant Stance.

    It's such a fragile and shallow class, and it doesn't really contribute anything to GW2 on the whole. It's not that it isn't "good" in PvP, or that players can't be "better" than others while using it, but randomly deleting Rev from the game one day probably wouldn't really impact GW2 in a way which couldn't be made up with just another Mesmer, Thief or Engineer. It doesn't carry any weight, and its mechanics probably would have been better utilized if they were sprinkled onto the other classes rather than forcibly shambled together into what amounts to a lazy, nostalgia-bait advertisement for a half-baked video game expansion.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 16, 2020

    @snoow.1694 said:
    Rev OP for 6 years

    You must have missed the part where revs were so weak taking one in ranked got you laughed at/hate spammed for throwing.

    This Rev OP discussion started with the buff to Mallyx that was quickly whittled down, and now has resurfaced with changes to sword/shortbow. Carry on though.

    The "Balance" is a fantasy -- another mortal superstition.

  • Ragion.2831Ragion.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    Type Ctrl + F and search "escape". If you do not see anyone other than myself mention Revs lack of escape consider this thread irrelevant and back away slowly.