What makes a good map?

This is an unusual food for thought / thesis / debate post. Those last time I created a new character and redid map completion and events around all tyria, and asked myself, what are the ingredients for a good map, a core map, a living season one, an expansion one, anything. And so I came to a figure, to which I will rely almost all my explanations:

Firstly, for me there are 3 big notions that come in mind concerning a map:-> STORY: Showing the big threat lurking at the horizon / Showing everyday life of the locals and their conflicts / Introducing a race and their culture and habitat.-> FACTIONS: The races implied in that map, peaceful / evil / neutral. All having a role regarding the story said above.-> EVENTS: What the factions are doing regarding that story. But they also increase fun within the map. It has a role in replayability.

Secondly, the sides of that triangle have a double meaning:1-QUESTS. It refers to the heart quests on your map but also the task you are asked to do in story steps. In both case, events can happens to progress it and it follows the story of the map.2-ENVIRONMENT. The factions shape the surroundings and create interactions, good, neutral or bad based on story. But also the living impression and ambient dialogues.3-META. By definition, it involves factions, implied in events. The faction will make mini-metas (event chains) to try to extend their territories or creating interactions.

Thirdly, the whole is linked by ACHIEVEMENTS, which have 3 meanings:-> The feeling of self-Accomplishment of finishing something and discovering what is coming after. Or simply finding an easter egg or killing the meta boss.-> Being rewarded for doing an event or doing a task with items or AP. With a longer event or task, a greater reward is expected. Have to be an easy task. Or lead to boredom.-> The fact of successfuly making the player understanding the story and goal of the map. Leading ultimately to a dragon or important threat or making the map living. Can have an impact on the will to return there later.

To put it in perspective, it works for any type of map, example:CORE- Timberlines falls. STORY/FACTIONS: Transition between norn lands and humans (Orr) and asura (Mount maelstrom) ones. Shows their struggles and the ones of the locals (hylek/quaggan) with enemies factions (Dredge/Pirates/Kraits/Risen) It also has a key place in a greater plot involving the first big threat: Zhaithan, and so risen will have a big role. The event will show the different fronts between the peaceful and evil factions: Pact vs Risen, Quaggan vs Kraits... And the main META do involve krait and quaggans.HOT- Auric Bassin. STORY/FACTIONS: Important role of the exalted trying to resist to the mordrem assaults and protecting themselves. Key place again toward a bigger plot: Mordremoth.And so making a way toward it to end that threat. META: Revolve arround gaining their trust, defending the main city and clearing the areas of mordrem.LS- Bjora Marches. STORY/FACTIONS: Norn lands, place of corruption, a servant of Jormag Drakkar is corrupting the surrounding and menacing the locals Kodans. The META so, will be about that threat and the locals: Defend, escort, help, protect them. Hunt, stop and erradicate the threats. And because it is norn lands, involvement of the spirits of the wild.

Ironically, in those three examples, the ultimate goal is to make cunscious there is a dragon threat lurking in the horizon, in each, the story involves draconic minions.But it is important to note that sometimes it's a minor threat or only to introduce the evil groups roaming around tyria. Harathi hinterlands has the story of showing the big conflict between humans and centaurs. Metrica Province is the frictions between asura and the other factions. Gandarran for the humans versus dredges and centaurs but also pirates.And cities, they have the role of showing the culture of each race, the colleges for asura, the different districts of the black citadel, the corsairs melting pot of lion's arch...

To sum up, a bad map miss either one of the corners or side of the triangle:

->It can be the ENVIRONEMENT/META that are missing; a good example is Kourna: Oh too bad, the awakened sucessfully destroyed the vine wall and you haven't stopped their cannons. So what? Yes, nothing happens. Whereas they should launch an assault on the pact encampment and the village in the north to ruin everything. The interaction isn't here, the environment isn't changed like it should have. Mini-metas (event chains) are missing.

->But it can also be due to a bad tuning of a meta, making it too long and feel boring and not rewarding for the time invested: Case of drizzlewood coast. The ACHIEVEMENT category, making the link in the triangle scheme isn't here. When a half is done, you leave, especially, if started from south, have to be very motivated to stay.

->Finally it can be the STORY itself that isn't clear, as example, bloodstone fen, I replayed that map at least 10 times with the correponding story episode to understand what it was about. Even today, the map look like a big mayhem to me, and so the aspect QUESTS seems pretty transparent to me too. Apparently, it is just caudecus wanting power. The EVENTS are also confusing and happening all around and hard to follow, but that is again, just my opinion.

To conclude, what make a good map to me? A very pure design, not overcharged with several layers, unclear paths or dispersed events witout links.A thing I regret, and especially in map having two main factions fighting each others, but also one with small groups all around is the lack of interactions.It was a thing very present in core maps, missing in recent ones. Take metrica province: Skritt go harass Parnna to steal its asura gate pieces. The inquest of the outer complex launch a mobile bomb golem and steal golems from luminates plant. Labs are assaulted by the hyleks.... The back and forth came back with drizzlewood regarding that and it's okay. But take sandswept: Never, never, the olmakhans launch themselves on the complex to lead an assault. We do everything by ourselves. The opposite can be said, no launch of evil golems on them outside of the episode story... a thing very missing is also the environment: it doesn't suffice to put a race or another and give them some associated assets. But it also requires logical assets: Stools, Houses, Beds. More interractive talk option, ambient dialogues... And finally a short meta, 20-30 mins max with good rewards.

Sum up of the sum up; maps need:-More interactions between the peaceful and evil factions. Taking in account any case of success/fail for any event.-Logical and realistic environment, living npcs means houses, stools, tables and beds. But also more ambient dialogue and dialogue option not related to the big upcoming threat.-A short meta, giving good loot, never longer than 30 mins. And requiring easily accessible achievements not asking to do repetitive contents like doing a thing 20 times.-Be sure to respect something in the style of that triangle scheme to keep a coherence.-Increase their replayability: Each map can be implied in an event occuring one time a week and giving better rewards than usual and titles:

Very short example:Monday=Istan, giant hydra spawning and meteor rain. Weekly world boss.Tuesday=Sandswept, cube great prize, race all around the complex against golems.Wednesday=Kourna, the huge hide and seek, finding 5 NPCS hiding in the map.Thursday=Jahai, factions fight: Some join the branded, some join the awakened. The first faction totally eradicated lose. (Players which haven't registered to the npcs can't be hurt)Friday=Thunderhead, Underwater skimmer race under the ice of the south area.

Each week it changes the living season/exapnsion used. And completing those events have a chance to loot ascended hoard of armor/weapon, infusions, mystic coin (1 per day max).

That's it, those are my reflexions on that topic. And very few modest suggestions to enhance the future maps.

One you have fun in, no need to overthink.

For me a good map has a meta cycle that splits the players up and has good rewards, Silverwastes is still the map I consider closest to perfect, mainly due to the way it spreads players around the map rather than having them zerg. Southern Drizzlewood is also good with the 2 lanes strategy, and has good rewards, but it's still a little to zergy for my liking. I would rather have a new map with 3 or more lanes where fights become more personal instead of faceroll zerging.

Silverwastes is the best map ingame. Nothing comes close

Personally the perfect map for me is Aesthetically pleasing and has Fun Events/Metas that are rewarding to play or farm.I much rather small events leading up to a quicker meta than for example drizzlewood where it's nonstop and very draining to even do once.

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Silverwastes is the best map ingame. Nothing comes close

Not aesthetically. It's a bunch of dirt that you do the same things over and over on.

@Mortifera.6138 said:

@Scoobaniec.9561 said:Silverwastes is the best map ingame. Nothing comes close

It is a desert, a desert consists of 90% sand. This is what makes a desert ^^''.

For me Dragonstand is the perfect map. I love the meta-event, the map and the weapons collection.The meta has just the right length and relaxedness for me. And I have nothing against zerg events, quite the contrary. If you just want to relax in the evening 1 1 1 events within a mass-zerg are very pleasant for me.

For me, it is the following.1) Ascetically pleasing.I remember the first time entering the jungle, or arriving in Bloodstone Fen. The Crystal Desert at night was so beautiful with a wonderful starry sky. I think every good map should have a memorable environmental element that speaks to the eyes but fills the soul with wonder. Personally this is the most important for me (in the short term). Why go somewhere new, if there is nothing new to see?

2) Terrain design and explorationGood maps should utilize masteries such as gliding and mounts and even offer less popular options like Oakheart vines and jumping mushrooms. But beyond this, there should be a small hidden spot that takes some thinking to access. This can just be a PoI or something actually inserted into the game, or it can just be a real hidden gem with no meaning besides it being there. The second is actually one of the little charms about maps in GW2. There are so many interesting places that don't require you to go there. It really makes you feel like maybe you found something no one else ever has. It fills you with a sense of adventure. Personally I like the average living world size maps, bigger maps I usually get tired of and don't feel like I want to spend my time exploring every nook and cranny, although there are some notable exceptions when there is variation within the map (e.g. Lornar's Pass which feels like 2 maps in one, the north and south because of environmental variability). I think Dragonfall really made a good use of combining movement mechanics, although I can't say it is my favorite map ascetically.

3) Story, meta, NPCsLastly, but not least, a good map needs to populated. It needs to feel alive. Sure, popular maps have players, but honestly players are rarely interesting. A good map has interesting NPC chatter, a good story and reason to bring you there and tie it to Tyria lore, and a rewarding and fun meta. For me the meta is one of the least important things for a good map (but very important for a good game). It does keep players coming back and keeps maps active. It is also amazing when you are out exploring and then see a throng of players running or flying someplace and you just put down whatever it is you were doing and go join them to find out what's happening. The first meta experience in each map is really fun, since I usually just end up joining in a random way, and it makes the world seem alive where I can just jump into the fray as I pass by.

4) PerformanceI decided to add one more aspect. Having recently played through LWS4 and experiencing crazy skill lag spikes in Sandswept Isles and Thunderhead Peaks, map performance (lag) may be the number one issue that separates a good map from a bad map. No matter how much of the above 3 points are included, if there are giant lag spikes that cause 2-3 second skill delays, the map becomes frustrating and makes me never want to play it. It fills the map chat with complaints, and makes it hard to complete achievements since...well the lag, and for notorious maps (like the 2 I mentioned) causes less people to play the map/meta. Let's just say it took a while to get the Ascended bag in Sandswept isles...

Something that don't makes me fall flat on my keyboard one day after its introduction..Silverwastes was the perfect balance between team work investment, organization, mechanics and rewards and the replayability was on point.Too bad all night long chest farming squads died little by little.. Good Ol' memories !

interesting enemies.Good scenery.Has local metas, that can be handled solo.Has map wide meta that flows. Usually an overall objective.Connected to interesting story elements.Has good farming rewards.

In my opinion the best three maps are: auric basin, cursed shore and bloodstone fin.

Verdant Brink is the best map in the game imo, aesthetically, terrain, large spreading meta, but the only thing lacks this map to be a silverwastes like is the rewards...

In my opinion, many of the core maps were excellent at telling a story and making the world feel grounded and interesting, with dozens of named NPCs, minor factions and thought out locations. All the paths leading to lions arch with fortified outposts along them, each with their own problems and metas, all of the minor faction settlements, all of the NPC routines and dialog and the way some metas lead into others, it all made for a world that felt like it had a wealth of detail if you cared to stop and look. The meta at the reservoir in queensdale effecting the water supply in shaemoor and the fields is just one of the hundreds of examples packed into every map.

I agree with verdant brink being my favourite map, as it took the design elements from the core maps and elevated them with more interconnected metas, reoccurring characters and different perspectives on the same overall meta, and more beautiful map modelling. Thats not to say that the other HoT maps were anything less than stellar either, and the entire process of each meta telling a sequential story in parallel with the personal one, with replayabilty for the different perspectives, all topped off with a final epic battle in dragons stand was absolute peak guild wars, something that I hope can be topped or at least equaled in the new expansion.

Metal Legion concert. Demolition derby. :)

God a "triangle"? Sheesh.

@ everyone else: core maps suck. Amongst countless other issues, they lack life. They're exactly what comes to mind when you think of a meaningless MMO experience.LW2 maps are messy, with too many ideas thrown at the wall in the hopes some of then stick.HoT maps are M C Escher inspired madness in a game with a barely-functional map and compass and camera system. If orienteering was reworked -- and they added some more events to the areas that exist solely for one rarely completed event to yake place in -- they'd be the best maps in an MMO, for sure.

Sandswept Isles really pulled out all the stops in fulfilling all the things that make a great map.

Terrain: Timberline Falls, Sandswept Isles, Malchor's LeapMeta: Dragonfall, Auric Basin, Domain of Istan.For solo play: Bitterfrost Frontier, Verdant Brink, All of Central Tyria.

I like artworks of Crystal Desert maps, but berely go there because of low reward. Color barance of CD is too vivid for me, core maps are just moderate and natural.

I am going to go ahead and agree with what every one is saying: a good blend of meta and aesthetics makes a good mapbut I will also add: exploration in the form of jumping puzzles.These days with the introduction of maps I try to explore beyond map boundaries because I've already explored the maps many times over.Exploring is my hands-down favoritest thing to do in the game beside fashion-wars.I think Tangled Depths would have been a favorite if it weren't for the hoards of mobs interrupting the view. Caledon and Metrica are my favorite for that "exploration" vibe. Jumping Puzzles are one of my favorite parts of the game.

This is a subjective topic, no?

For me, a very casual player, I spend almost all of my time in Core. I appreciate the work in HoT, but do not like to go there. PoF is fine for me, but I don't linger there much because those zones frequently make me focus too much on what is going on around me. Core is more laid-back for me and after work and other RL responsibilities, I just want to log in and run around with my friends on our nowhere-close-to-meta builds. I also like help out new players, mostly in Wayfarer (sometimes in Queensdale) which seems like a second home to me sometimes. :)

I've recently started to explore the LS3 maps a bit more and would maybe go to LS4 maps if it weren't for the lag issues.

I'm glad that jumping puzzles are optional content. I despise them. Like... a lot more than I can say on this forum. However, I'm glad that they exist for those who enjoy them.

HoT for me. The maps are huge and beautiful and present a real exploration challenge your first go through. I think they did a really great job on a lot of the event chains that tell the story of what is going on in each map, too. The big boss events are fun and rewarding as well. The loot probably doesn't come close to the latest farm, but it's rewarding enough to just run around doing HPs and events while harvesting nodes and opening chests everywhere you go.

I think the Grothmar Valley map does a lot of these things pretty well. I like the balance it has between solo and group events, its aesthetics and the many achievements in it.

@Fuchslein.8639 said:

@Mortifera.6138 said:

@"Scoobaniec.9561" said:Silverwastes is the best map ingame. Nothing comes close

Sand doesn't make a desert a desert. Yes, there are sand deserts but the main description of a desert is "landscape where little precipitation occurs"

I have an example for a Cold Desert at Dome C

Baja Desert in Californiahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert#/media/File:Baja_California_Desert.jpg

Rock Deserthttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert#/media/File:AtacamaDesertByFrode.jpg

The most appealing maps to me are those who serves a purpose.Like a reason to be there, not just to place a warzone in there like A-Net is used to do.Think of Queensdale. There are villages where people live, they have a lake for fishing and a mension for a leader.And there is so much happening that makes the map so likeable. People water the fields and they lumber wood for building.You can just walk around and look at things, there is no constant combat going on.

And this brings me to the example of a bad map.A bad map only exists for the purpose of warfare or fighting.The Path of fire maps would be a perfect example. There is absolutely nothing to see but you are constantly attacked.Nobody likes being there.Gw1 did a better job with the desert maps. There were several different deserts, from pure sand dunes to prairies with groups of different animals wandering around.But wherever you went you were in awe with the environment and ambience. They also had better music customized for each map, not the mix and mash we have in Gw2

The best map in GW2 for me are the expansions' maps, so Hot and Pof and also some of the LW4 maps. These maps, first of all, fit into the context of the story and have a coherent theme. They have depth, lots of minor details that make it come alive. From NPCs and their dialogues, events and meta events it all fits into the theme and the story of the map. So I would say a good map has a living, believable ecosystem with lots of minor details that fall into the theme of the map.They also have a lot of secrets. Even Elon Riverlands that feels very flat and boring at first have a lot of secret places to explore. Also good maps should have some really tough enemies but also places where you can chill.These maps are also beautiful.

Well, I'm not doing core game justice because many of the core maps are on par with expansions. Expansions just stepped up on the aesthetics and the enemies in core maps are too much of a pushover nowadays.

I don't understand why people equate deserts to = there's nothing there

Deserts are usually depicted, as places that hide ancient secrets. This is because of the way the most of popular culture uses Egypt as the poster child for depicting ancient societies in general.

1) Ancient gods, that are older than the current paradigm in languages you don't understand...so they appear alien and mysterious.2) Rare Treasures that have magical powers because they use magic from ancient societies3) Deep and dark labyrinths and mazes that hold said treasures at their center and other deep and dark knowledge that nobody knows about...all hidden beneath the sand.

On the surface, the desert is barren, and inhospitable...almost as if a test in survival for an adventurer to persevere through in order to find that place that holds that ancient knowledge.

Now, Gw1 deserts knew about this kind of theme for deserts, and that's why a lot of gw1's desert themes were surrounded by ascension, and links to divine places...also served as the burial of dark events of the past (like the events of Orr and entrance to the Underworld)

Now gw2's desert focused on something else entirely. What that is I can't really say because nothing exactly stuck out to me to indicate it is representative of any theme...But I believe it was more trying to emulate current Saharan Africa, which was what original culture of Elona is based on, and just tried to come up with an advancement in the political drama that was there from the first game...

So in conclusion if you ask me, Gw2, kind of paid no attention to what makes deserts so cool in the first place...and that's maybe why some people feel like "deserts don't mean nothin" When in my opinion deserts are one of the cooler places to visit in a fantasy game.

I really like the HoT map metas, because you had to actually play the game and know what's going on. Most of the map metas after POF doesn't really have much gameplay, imo, because you just mindlessly press 1111111111 like a bot, they all play exactly the same which gets pretty boring and repetitive pretty quick.