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Champions Chapter 1: Truce thoughts/observations

Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 17, 2020 in Lore

So the allies we got in this release are

  • Crystal Bloom: Primary
  • Seraph and Watchknights in Brisban
  • Asura and Golems in Metrica
  • Norn shamans in Gendarran

Other notes

  • Jhavi is still leading the Vigil, since Laranthir hasn't returned from the Grove.
  • We got confirmation that the Pale Tree is better, but still healing from the attack by Mordremoth.
  • The Asuran Counsel has accepted Jormag/Ryland's help.
  • Braham has gained some ability to feel where the larger destroyers are going.
  • Braham and Taimi have a fight over allying with Jormag.
  • Aurene isn't taking an active role in the fighting, and The Commander wishes she would.
  • Jormag says the "balance" is made up, and not real.
  • The group leading the war effort consists of Logan, Crecia, Phlunt, Sigast, and a sylvari whose name i forgot right now
<1

Comments

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would also note that some of the Destroyer names were very interesting. Destroyer of the Great Bridge, Destroyer of Ironhammer Line.
    Phlunt also notes that there is no Mordremoth or Zhaitan magic present in Primordus' minions and suspects it is due to Primordus learning new ways of harnessing it.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    This was a rare example of the story and dialogue especially taking a front seat over a rather poor content drop. I thought there were some interesting things in this "chapter"

    The Jormag alluding to the "balance" was the thing of note for me. I mean I've always hated that narrative and I'd be glad to see it gone, but if they have switched it out after so many years, it just goes to show even Anet no longer seem to think much of their story.

    I did like the Braham/Taimi argument. Both had valid points and it was great to see the Asura show their hatred for Primordus rise above all other problems. I'm pretty much in agreement with Braham though

    Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

    There's also mention of activity far below levels previously known. Perhaps Primordus has burrowed too far?

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    I am very curious about the family tree of the Elder Dragons now due to what we learn in the new dialogues for this story update

    Jormag categorize Aurene as her little sister.

    Jormag confirms that Primordius is her twin brother.

    These details are small but it does give us a bit of the picture for the elder dragon's origins.


    We also got some talk about Laranthir still not returning yet for unknown reasons and it seems Jhavi has become worried for his unknown long absence. I worry this maybe a sign that they may kill Laranthir off either off screen or have him return for a brief moment just to be killed off.

  • Rihar.3465Rihar.3465 Member ✭✭
    edited November 17, 2020

    I've noticed that Jormag pushes Aurene towards the intervention. It is trying to convince her and all around there is some unfathomable idea about the world existence and its future no one can understand: mortals are too dumb to get it, while Aurene is too young. However Jormag never pointed out directly. We know that Jormag also is a dragon of persuasion, it has its own ways to corrupt others, just like Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik did before. I was surprised how Commander's allies (even Taimi) rushed into the fight claiming Primodrus as a threat #1, despite of all madness (Drakkar, Icobrood corruption, Frost Citadel and blood) its actions led to. And I believe the inner conflict will grow even further.

    Jormag mentioned it awakened months ago (so basically just now), and we know it is hiding from something:

    Bangar Ruinbringer: Frigid lizard is scared.
    Aurene: Of us?
    Bangar Ruinbringer: Not likely. And knowing what it is won't change the fact that they're playing you, like a fiddle.

    Bangar mentioned it fears of somethings, but I doubt Primodrus is a source of a fear. Additionally Jormag mentioned Kralkattorik madness in previous conversations through Bangar:

    Voice of Jormag: Your fear and focus are misplaced. I am not driven to madness and mindless rampage like your grandfather.

    So, probably that's the source of a fear? Not to become mad and crazy? It wants Aurene to interfere, to consume as much magic as it's possible. To kill Primodrus and follow her grandfather's fate. It says for multiple times that Aurene is not prepared for something:

    Voice of Jormag: And you chose not to intervene. Despite your power and potential, you left it to mortals.
    Aurene: It's their world as much as mine. There was nothing to be gained—
    Voice of Jormag: Oh, little sister, how wrong you are. Careful you don't learn the lesson too late.
    Aurene: So then you kill him.
    Voice of Jormag: That time will come, but not yet. My twin will awake. And he will set the world ablaze.
    Voice of Jormag: Look to that World, Aurene. Very soon you will have to make a choice—if you're to have any chance of saving it. [1]

    [1] Kill Primodrus and consume its magic or hide just like Jormag does and let the world die in flame.

    I think in the next episodes we gonna see more "seeds of discord" among Commander's allies, thanks to Jormag. Commander already mentioned his doubts about Aurene choice not to participate directly while talking with Caithe after 2nd mission.

    Also, don't forget that chapter 3 will be called "Balance". So there is actual balance we are going to achieve, whatever it means.

  • I think it's the other option for Primordus and the other Elder Dragon magic - He's had the time to convert the magic he's absorbed into his own kind of magic. The same theory has come up before RE Balthazar and his magic. He also consumed Elder Dragon magic but did not show any visual change to his fire, or indeed used other types of magic other than fire and (probably) arcane - The theory was he had converted the magic he consumed to 'his own' magic.

  • A solid chapisode. The voice direction is noticeably improved. Well done with Aurene's direction. The dialogue was natural, no one oversold anything. I really hope we see more done with the Norn and Asura as foils. I can't think of a better way to deliver more Norn and Asuran lore. I think we've jumped into an 'alliance' too quickly. Everyone seemed to go along with 'balance' being a superstition The studio worked so hard to show no one being an idiot and mostly talking through a truce or alliance. Makes how everyone reacted stand out. Even Tiami seemed to accept the idea that she was wrong. I want the 6 sphere balance story to evolve, but I want to see it happen over time so it looks realistic. I don't like species stereotyping but it Asurans would not kill Primordus if magiphysics showed it resulting in Tyria's destruction. We have to see the Asurans address the results from Omadd's machine.

    weathering's everything

  • I found I actually enjoyed this episode more than I thought I would. The surprise show of Ryland was big. It's interesting that he notes himself, the Commander, and Caithe all share the fact they are dragon Champions. It alludes to the title of this arc as well as shows us that both The Commander and Caithe are worried that Aurene is being so un involved.

    I also found the locations of some of the future dragon missions nice we really are traveling the world and it's very interesting.

    Also of note is Brahams new skill to track the champion destroyers. I'm curious to see if this is a part of his new relationship with the Spirts of the wild and that it could mean a lot. Also Crecia is now Blood Imperator and it seems the civil war has wound down now that Ryland is leading the Frost Legion.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

    This is an interesting thought. Way back the devs mentioned they might bring back player-driven plot choices, such as electing Evon or Ellen Kiel back in Season 1. What if there's a similar vote on whether Primordus or Jormag dies?

    Not sure how I'd feel about that. I've only just played through the initial story leading up to DRMs, but thus far it seems like everyone is VERY conveniently accepting the notion that the 'balance' of The All is fake. A LOT of talk about killing Primordus without any push back that another elder dragon death (without a replacement) would doom the world. I will honestly be upset if the writers handwave the last several years of plot building the notion that we NEED multiple beings to maintain The All so flippantly. Sure, I could maybe see Jormag lying to get their way (especially if they've got a secret scion that could ascend in Primordus' place), but for Aurene, the Commander, and Taimi to just... not bring up the impending apocalypse if Primordus is killed? It makes me very worried the narrative team thinks we're complete imbeciles that wouldn't notice or wouldn't care about this dramatic departure from the status quo built up for the past several years.

    Like these notions of killing Primordus are entirely uncontested. The notion that the balance is fake is entirely uncontested. What???????

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svennis.3852 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Say what you will about this episode, it does have flaws, but I really liked the story (thus far, whether it's good in the end will depend on how the whole saga goes), and especially how we got to touch up on subjects and characters we haven't seen in a long, long time. An update on the Pale Tree, for example. I really like them playing up the Asura and Norn racial hatred and bias against certain dragons, they're both right in a lot of ways and it'll be interesting to watch unfold, I could see the two races come into direct conflict as we have to decide ultimately whether to kill Primordus and let Jormag continue with whatever they're plotting, or kill Jormag before it can do anything irreversible, and face Primordus without help from Jormag.

    This is an interesting thought. Way back the devs mentioned they might bring back player-driven plot choices, such as electing Evon or Ellen Kiel back in Season 1. What if there's a similar vote on whether Primordus or Jormag dies?

    Not sure how I'd feel about that. I've only just played through the initial story leading up to DRMs, but thus far it seems like everyone is VERY conveniently accepting the notion that the 'balance' of The All is fake. A LOT of talk about killing Primordus without any push back that another elder dragon death (without a replacement) would doom the world. I will honestly be upset if the writers handwave the last several years of plot building the notion that we NEED multiple beings to maintain The All so flippantly. Sure, I could maybe see Jormag lying to get their way (especially if they've got a secret scion that could ascend in Primordus' place), but for Aurene, the Commander, and Taimi to just... not bring up the impending apocalypse if Primordus is killed? It makes me very worried the narrative team thinks we're complete imbeciles that wouldn't notice or wouldn't care about this dramatic departure from the status quo built up for the past several years.

    Like these notions of killing Primordus are entirely uncontested. The notice that the balance is fake is entirely uncontested. What???????

    Yeah, I mean we've SEEN the effects of killing dragons with rampant ley-energy, for one. The only evidence we have that the balance of The All isn't a real problem is the claim of a dragon, who, remember, has a literal domain of magic called PERSUASION, says so, and says that it's older and wiser than all of us and we won't understand it. Is it possible Jormag is subtly manipulating us all, but we the commander don't realize it because we still don't trust Jormag and therefore assume it hasn't gotten to us... but it has.

    I'd rather keep going.. wherever the wind takes us

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So the allies we got in this release are

    • Crystal Bloom: Primary
    • Seraph and Watchknights in Brisban
    • Asura and Golems in Metrica
    • Norn shamans in Gendarran

    Other notes

    • Jhavi is still leading the Vigil, since Laranthir hasn't returned from the Grove.
    • We got confirmation that the Pale Tree is better, but still healing from the attack by Mordremoth.
    • The Asuran Counsel has accepted Jormag/Ryland's help.
    • Braham has gained some ability to feel where the larger destroyers are going.
    • Braham and Taimi have a fight over allying with Jormag.
    • Aurene isn't taking an active role in the fighting, and The Commander wishes she would.
    • Jormag says the "balance" is made up, and not real.
    • The group leading the war effort consists of Logan, Crecia, Phlunt, Sigast, and a sylvari whose name i forgot right now

    It would not surprise me if literally and thematically we are actually being persuaded by Jormag to some degree and that the Primordus threat is just a red herring.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In terms of The All, would the elder dragons really suffer from Tyria exploding from an imbalance? Or would they just live through it and keep going? And now that they have access to the mists, would The All being destroyed ultimately be beneficial to them somehow? Allowing them to go wherever they want, do whatever they want?

    I don't know, but it seems pretty obvious Jormag is hiding something and seems extremely hellbent on eliminating Primordus. I'm just not sure if this is a ruse and they're actually in their own alliance leading us into a trap, or if it's Jormag playing a game to come out on top. As far as twists go, I'd say the biggest twist would be that Primordus and Jormag are working together to play everyone else. Given Jormag's constant push and manipulation into getting us to look badly at Aurene for not stepping in, (suspicious or not), I'm wondering if the end goal of such an alliance would be to force Aurene's hand and have Primordus and Jormag ultimately looking to eliminate Aurene as the one being that likely has the strongest chance of standing in their way.

    I am interested in seeing more development on the effect of the absorbed elder dragons on Primordus and Jormag though. So far we've just seen hints of things here and there but now we're down 3 elder dragons and it seems like it's probably time to start delivering on that instead of occasionally dipping into it slightly here and there.

    And the Braham bit was definitely interesting and will play a larger role. So they're either building up to him being a champion of Primordus, or he's being corrupted by the magic he used to ignite the bow, or his connection to the spirits somehow has given him the ability to sense elder dragons on a different level. Given that we've only witnessed it with Primordus so far, it seems like it might have more to do with Primordus either using Mordremoth's mind power (if he has that) to lead Braham to him, or he's already been tainted by Primordus and the little bit of corruption he may have is starting to take hold.

    Only time will tell, but I'd imagine the story will involve a lot more action in the coming months than just Charr 1 bickering with Charr 2, which is a relief for me.

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭
    • Still no Zojja
    • Laranthir about to get the Zojja treatment as well?

    Honsetly, I am really looking forward to whats to happen to Ryland and Rytlock. Rytlock has been involved in every story so far, and I'd like him to be written out just for ONCE and giving other a chance to shine on the stage.

  • PseudoNewb.5468PseudoNewb.5468 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

    DIdn't he say either Primodus was able to purge Zhaitan and Mordy's magic or accommodate it? I personally thing the purging theory is more sound. That is because we had also swapped magic between Jormag and Priomorus previously. Although swapping those two did seem especially detrimental. So it could be that Primordus is awake now because the foreign magics have been purged, including swapping Jormag's and Promordu's magic back.

    This also makes me wonder what Ryland actually did with the spirits of the wild to wake Jormag. Did Jormag consume parts of their magic. Or are the spirits of the wild a conduit to a certain kind of ley line that helps the dragons swap magic back. Omadds machine swapped the dragons magic in the 'wrong' way putting Jormag and Primodus to sleep, so can the spirits do the opposite, and is that why Jormag's and Primodu's awakening are coincidental? If the spirits are actually stewards of dragon magic in some way, maybe that is why Braham, who has been blsed by them, is able to sense the dragon minions.

    Although if this is the case, where did Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic go? Maybe the Pale tree is somehow pulling Mordremoth's magic back. If the Pale tree is doing something, I wonder if Laranthir is helping (I just see no other reason for him to be abdicating his duties to the Vigil). Zhaitan's magic, who knows where it is going. The ley lines crisscross the world.

    Well at least Aurene still believes in the balance. And although her way of maintaining it by staying out of the way is a bit dissapointing. But... this seems to be a pretty common thing in Guild Wars lore. The commander asked Kormir for some kind of blessings to help against Balthazar, and got nothing. Kormir asked the other gods for blessing to take on Abaddon, but was only told she already had everything she needed... Perhaps it is just a recurring issue with writing needing to buss away the all powerful entities, but perhaps the excuse of 'balance' can be made a compelling reason for powerful beings to step back.

    Another interesting note. The second in the new mastery line lets you get a boon based on the last dragon champion killed and use that boon in the next response mission. Currently every response mission is a Primordus response mission, and you always get a Primordus based boon. It makes me wonder though, does the last champion killed matter if it is always going to be a Primordus champion? The language is neutral on the description... oh and uhh.. the wiki has all of the mastery descriptions already... and uhm... it seems quite spoilerish.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2020

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Phlunt also mentions that Primordus could have "changed" to accomodate Zhaitans and Mordys magic whilst it slept. I wonder if that is a hint to another model change

    DIdn't he say either Primodus was able to purge Zhaitan and Mordy's magic or accommodate it? I personally thing the purging theory is more sound.

    The exact quote is;

    "Primordus' slumber may have allowed it time to process the foreign magic - or alter itself to accomodate it. We don't really know at this point"

    So could be converted or purged, but purged does seem less likely based on the wording. And it could mean a model change.

    If it's the latter, maybe he's fixed his underbite...

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Svennis.3852Svennis.3852 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ruadan.9301 I feel you. The only idea I can really put forth is the possibility Jormag is magically manipulating us to a greater extent than we realize, making us going along with things we should know better than to go along with. Psychologically influencing Aurene to feel like she shouldn’t intervene with their banter. Maybe something that will be revealed down the line, but I don’t know if they’re going to execute it well (if they’re not just hand waving). It’s sad to have so little faith right now.

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    The Jormag alluding to the "balance" was the thing of note for me. I mean I've always hated that narrative and I'd be glad to see it gone, but if they have switched it out after so many years, it just goes to show even Anet no longer seem to think much of their story.

    I hope that line doesn't mean they are going to retcon the whole kitten story so we can now kill Elder Dragons without consequences because "the balance of magic thing is made up". Because that would completely invalidate pretty much everything we've done since the end of Heart of Thorns. :/

  • I think we are being led down a dark path. Even the dialogue between Marjory and Jhavi. Majory insisting on saving people and Jhavi willing to let them die? This seems like a big red flag. The Pact and by extension the Vigil is willing to bring the fight to the dragons.. the idea of sacrificing the whole of the Ascalonian settlement is not in character for them.

    Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

    Taino and the Asura: this is possible the worst response I've ever seen. I recalled actually saying Don't drink the coolaid! When hearing the Arcane Council meet with Ryland. Taino is alot smarter than this. But Jormag pulled his trump card The Tyrian Underground. The Asura have been left out of their home for 250 years. Most Asura have never been to the ancient cities and per ghosts of Ascalon many can't even read ancient Asuran. They see the reclamation of the 6 underground cities as their victory against Primordus.

    The fact I felt the only sane ones were Braham and Banger.....makes my head hurt.

  • Psientist.6437Psientist.6437 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    The voice direction and dialogue worked well together. There are obvious issues with how people are acting. It was easy to hear and see Aurene's anxiety and lack of confidence. It as easy to hear Jormag's hunger. They sounded desperate and driven to persuade. What do we do if Primordus shows up and says the balance must be maintained? Champion Braham is possible and works within the premise of balance. There is still so much potential for drama but that potential evaporates as the world becomes less realistic. The studio spent too much time making the balance realistic and reflective of Tyrian magiphysics. The studio won't jump without a chute right? Right?

    edit: If balance is till required then falling out of balance is a threat bigger than any Elder Dragon. We could use a bigger Act 2 into Act 3 threat and the Commander can't make this threat happen. We need a way to make this threat happen, at least partially. We may be seeing that happen. I would still expect some more voices joining Braham's as we see seven? more missions worth of dialogue.

    weathering's everything

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rihar.3465 said:
    I was surprised how Commander's allies (even Taimi) rushed into the fight claiming Primodrus as a threat #1, despite of all madness (Drakkar, Icobrood corruption, Frost >Citadel and blood) its actions led to. And I believe the inner conflict will grow even further.

    why surprised? primordus is straight atacking all tyria.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    It would not surprise me if literally and thematically we are actually being persuaded by Jormag to some degree and that the Primordus threat is just a red herring.

    I can already smell the plot from 10 years away.

    • Jormag says Primordus is a bigger threat.
    • Primordus is rip.
    • Jormag succs Primordus EXP and offers Aurene the same.
    • Jormag wants Aurene to embrace her role as an ED and stop "playing around with mortals"
    • Things go down.
    • Jormag flees after 1 confrontation, Aurene licks her wounds.
    • Cantha time, with Bubbles lurking around.

    EoD speculation :

    • Racist Canthans
    • Rally Canthans for upcoming threat of either Bubbles or Jormag
    • Racists don't care, disaster, okay we believe yu guys now q.q
    • Prep time
    • Bubbles is up on the plate to fight (or Jormag)
    • Other ED is left for LW6

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    I share his reaction though, I too really distrust Jormag, like, really.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Pax.3548 said:

    I share his reaction though, I too really distrust Jormag, like, really.

    Except it doesn't excuse his terrible behavior. (or terrible writing)

    Maybe it's just me but it was pissing me to the high heavens when yu fight the final boss of the Metrica Instance and he freaking chirps in randomly about "I don't like this alliance"

    Hello? Focus on big destroyer FIRST ?

    Taimi was literally just arguing back to Braham so he would zip it and focus on the fight THE ENTIRE TIME.
    Like gosh, Taimi is insufferable but Braham whining the entire way from the gate to the Destroyer boss was straight up the worst filler dialouge no one had to write.

    And then the instance ends with "huh, idk man, I can like, tremor sense Destroyers"

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    I suspect that Jormag is using the chaos caused by her twin brother Primordius to persuade people to her side.

    It is a opportunity that has put many people in a vulnerable position since this is the first time two Elder dragons are on a rampage.

    With Primordius being the more pure chaos destruction type, this has made people scared because he is more muhahaha destroy everything while Jormag is giving people the feeling of comfort due to her offers and words of "reason".

    In the end, I don't trust Jormag because it has been made it quite clear from past history with Jormag's actions that she is all about offering things to make people feel they should become corrupted by her willingly to feel comfort, wanted, and protected. This situation with Primordius is just the perfect opportunity for her to get more people into trusting and accepting her corruption.

    However, this situation is also a bad sign that we may see former allies become corrupted by Jormag and maybe worse they become our enemies if the moment when we have to fight Jormag happens. Especially Taimi since she is far more obsessed with defeating Primordius and currently has a strong belief Jormag can be a reasonable Elder Dragon due to all the promises she has been giving the Asura.

  • HotDelirium.7984HotDelirium.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    I share his reaction though, I too really distrust Jormag, like, really.

    Lowkey when Jormag and Waaaaaaaaham were talking I was like YES a spirits of the wild lore moment and then!!!!! Nothing. We have been WAITING for this moment. You enslave my spirits of the wild, ambush us and you don't like OUR attitude?!
    ._.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    Don't worry. He'll probably be...fired. Hahaha!

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    Lowkey when Jormag and Waaaaaaaaham were talking I was like YES a spirits of the wild lore moment and then!!!!! Nothing. We have been WAITING for this moment. You enslave my spirits of the wild, ambush us and you don't like OUR attitude?!
    ._.

    Man the writing for this entire season is disappointing.
    Whoever is responsible for writing dialougues need to be fired.

    80% of the Commander's interaction with every plot important character aside from people we know we can trust is "Hehehehe yu know so little"
    So er, yu guys gonna tell us?

    Also, Jormag.
    For someone who is all about deception and persuasion, they are awfully bad at it.
    Their shtick is to persuade and seduce and plant ideas, but they way they are written for the entire season is like :
    "ehehehehe listen to me, my plan good, uh er what's my proof and goal or any bait to lure us in? Er..... secrets ehehehehe. Also Aurene, ehehehehe babby dragon, yu know so little."

    Oh how far Gw2 writing has devolved.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:

    Lowkey when Jormag and Waaaaaaaaham were talking I was like YES a spirits of the wild lore moment and then!!!!! Nothing. We have been WAITING for this moment. You enslave my spirits of the wild, ambush us and you don't like OUR attitude?!
    ._.

    Man the writing for this entire season is disappointing.
    Whoever is responsible for writing dialougues need to be fired.

    80% of the Commander's interaction with every plot important character aside from people we know we can trust is "Hehehehe yu know so little"
    So er, yu guys gonna tell us?

    Also, Jormag.
    For someone who is all about deception and persuasion, they are awfully bad at it.
    Their shtick is to persuade and seduce and plant ideas, but they way they are written for the entire season is like :
    "ehehehehe listen to me, my plan good, uh er what's my proof and goal or any bait to lure us in? Er..... secrets ehehehehe. Also Aurene, ehehehehe babby dragon, yu know so little."

    Oh how far Gw2 writing has devolved.

    This could have been a shinning moment about building mental resilience. Give us even a few whole community juicy votes like: do you believe Jormag or fight against her? Give that power to the players- ALLOW us to literally be influenced by Jormag...or not. Kinda meta but this game needs big moments like this. Since we defeated Drakkar the whispers are no more? K but the intention is still there isn't it? (or not who knows right?) and now Primordus is here and were just supposed to ignore Jormag. Nah fam. Its a red herring and our Commander is being toopid again. Even Joko was like ":/ really... you're being dumb killing Elder Dragons..."

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HotDelirium.7984 said:
    Nah fam. Its a red herring and our Commander is being toopid again. Even Joko was like ":/ really... you're being dumb killing Elder Dragons..."

    Our entire existence since PoF began was people telling us where to go, and what to fight.
    I guess we really are stupid.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    I share his reaction though, I too really distrust Jormag, like, really.

    I mostly agree with Braham, too.
    Taimi actively sharing data/findings with Ryland and Jormag with the intention to kill Primordus is a bad idea. I do understand the Arcane Council crafting an alliance due to research just like how the inquest are tolerated and represented in the council. But Taimi should know better.

    The one thing I disagree with Braham is about calling Jormag a liar. And that disagreement is only due to one of Tom Abernathy tweets (Edit: source ) some time ago where he stated that Jormag doesn‘t lie (which our character obviously doesn‘t know).

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    This entire season has killed a LOT of my enthusiasm for this game. The map mechanics are not particularly fun, a lot of repetitive grind, and neither has the lore direction been particularly great.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Could this just be Ryland using the Persuasion sphere of magic against the Asura. Being a Champion, Ryland would also have access to that form of magic.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I actually liked the writing, and Braham's reaction seemed rather reasonable/sensible. I do get why asura want to seek alliance with Jormag, but they should also be a lot more cautious. It's like Marjory said - the choices we make is what we'll have to live with.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Genesis.8572 said:
    This entire season has killed a LOT of my enthusiasm for this game. The map mechanics are not particularly fun, a lot of repetitive grind, and neither has the lore direction been particularly great.

    for me the error started when taking the Gods out of the scene in POF with this weird "we prefer to run away" thing. Elder Dragons is by far a very uniteresting villains.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring. Or she, like the other dragon champions, is about to have a larger role to play.

    • Do any of Zhaitan's champion still live as unchained?
    • Is Kuunavang supposed to be a DSS champion?

    We may be in a position where the 6 all have active champions and armies (even if they themselves are not alive).
    Unchained vs Sylvari
    Bubbles vs Aurene
    Primordus vs Jormag

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    That is possible. We did have Ryland say only he, Caithe, and the Commander were champions. And even the wiki doesn't acknowledge the Pale Tree as technically being one. Maybe that storyline will just die out.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Also bulletpoint notes of worth:

    • Destroyers are unaffected by water.
    • Primordus is theorized to have become capable of filtering Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's magic better, resulting in stronger but pure-fire destroyers.

    Not sure if this is just to balance the encounters. But none of the destroyers are immune to fire.

  • @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    That is possible. We did have Ryland say only he, Caithe, and the Commander were champions. And even the wiki doesn't acknowledge the Pale Tree as technically being one. Maybe that storyline will just die out.

    I gotta nitpick here but the Pale Tree isn't like Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander because her relationship to Mordremoth is largely characterized by being a sapling of Mordremoth. Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are champions of their respective elder dragon but were not born of the elder dragon in any way and instead were willingly adopted as champions.

  • RyuDragnier.9476RyuDragnier.9476 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

    This brings up something that I've wondered for a while...why did Aurene give Caithe her power and not us? It doesn't make sense considering the deep bond we have. Unless she couldn't or wouldn't for a reason. Considering she can see into the future, it's possible that she foresaw something that could only be done if we were not given her powers directly like Caithe.

    Well, that, or...the Commander is already the champion of the EDs "mother", which leads to a theory that Tyria itself is an ED. Though that theory could hold water as to why "the balance" doesn't exist. It may just be that too much energy going off would wake "mother" and just lead to destruction from her moving around, leading to the EDs mere existence being to regulate the magical energy so she doesn't wake up. Which would also explain why the Human Gods left, it would be something that would make their mere presence there a serious threat to everything that exists on Tyria.

  • @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    That is possible. We did have Ryland say only he, Caithe, and the Commander were champions. And even the wiki doesn't acknowledge the Pale Tree as technically being one. Maybe that storyline will just die out.

    I gotta nitpick here but the Pale Tree isn't like Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander because her relationship to Mordremoth is largely characterized by being a sapling of Mordremoth. Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are champions of their respective elder dragon but were not born of the elder dragon in any way and instead were willingly adopted as champions.

    Well, it depends on how you're defining champion.

    Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are unique to dragon champions ins that they have free will and are bonded, which makes them "champions" but not "dragon champions" as we've known. Meanwhile Glint and the Pale Tree are dragon champions, and they were cleansed after corruption, rather than simply bonded.

    It's an annoying thing caused by ANet using the same word to mean many things.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2020

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

    This brings up something that I've wondered for a while...why did Aurene give Caithe her power and not us? It doesn't make sense considering the deep bond we have. Unless she couldn't or wouldn't for a reason. Considering she can see into the future, it's possible that she foresaw something that could only be done if we were not given her powers directly like Caithe.

    Well, that, or...the Commander is already the champion of the EDs "mother", which leads to a theory that Tyria itself is an ED. Though that theory could hold water as to why "the balance" doesn't exist. It may just be that too much energy going off would wake "mother" and just lead to destruction from her moving around, leading to the EDs mere existence being to regulate the magical energy so she doesn't wake up. Which would also explain why the Human Gods left, it would be something that would make their mere presence there a serious threat to everything that exists on Tyria.

    We are getting Aurene's Champion powers in the Mastery abilities being from Crystal Champion Mastery and the newly added Dragon Slayer Mastery

    Though a different form of Champion abilites since these powers do not alter our appearance.

  • @EdwinLi.1284 said:

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

    This brings up something that I've wondered for a while...why did Aurene give Caithe her power and not us? It doesn't make sense considering the deep bond we have. Unless she couldn't or wouldn't for a reason. Considering she can see into the future, it's possible that she foresaw something that could only be done if we were not given her powers directly like Caithe.

    Well, that, or...the Commander is already the champion of the EDs "mother", which leads to a theory that Tyria itself is an ED. Though that theory could hold water as to why "the balance" doesn't exist. It may just be that too much energy going off would wake "mother" and just lead to destruction from her moving around, leading to the EDs mere existence being to regulate the magical energy so she doesn't wake up. Which would also explain why the Human Gods left, it would be something that would make their mere presence there a serious threat to everything that exists on Tyria.

    We are getting Aurene's Champion powers in the Mastery abilities being from Crystal Champion Mastery and the newly added Dragon Slayer Mastery

    Though a different form of Champion abilites since these powers do not alter our appearance.

    I knew I was forgetting something. "Mother" still makes my mind race to possibilities to what it could be, and I have a tendency to jump to plausible yet easily shut down theories because I always forget a detail or two.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    That is possible. We did have Ryland say only he, Caithe, and the Commander were champions. And even the wiki doesn't acknowledge the Pale Tree as technically being one. Maybe that storyline will just die out.

    I gotta nitpick here but the Pale Tree isn't like Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander because her relationship to Mordremoth is largely characterized by being a sapling of Mordremoth. Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are champions of their respective elder dragon but were not born of the elder dragon in any way and instead were willingly adopted as champions.

    Well, it depends on how you're defining champion.

    Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are unique to dragon champions ins that they have free will and are bonded, which makes them "champions" but not "dragon champions" as we've known. Meanwhile Glint and the Pale Tree are dragon champions, and they were cleansed after corruption, rather than simply bonded.

    It's an annoying thing caused by ANet using the same word to mean many things.

    Is there something in having free willed minions that allows one to share the burden of magic? We are able to collect volatile and unbound magic almost like a minion would. But I don't think we send it to Aurene?