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Champions Chapter 1: Truce thoughts/observations

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  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I wonder if them bringing up the Pale Tree again is a red herring.

    It's most likely because people keep complaining we never hear anything about the Pale Tree, so this was about the only way they could squeeze some info in

    That is possible. We did have Ryland say only he, Caithe, and the Commander were champions. And even the wiki doesn't acknowledge the Pale Tree as technically being one. Maybe that storyline will just die out.

    I gotta nitpick here but the Pale Tree isn't like Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander because her relationship to Mordremoth is largely characterized by being a sapling of Mordremoth. Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are champions of their respective elder dragon but were not born of the elder dragon in any way and instead were willingly adopted as champions.

    Well, it depends on how you're defining champion.

    Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are unique to dragon champions ins that they have free will and are bonded, which makes them "champions" but not "dragon champions" as we've known. Meanwhile Glint and the Pale Tree are dragon champions, and they were cleansed after corruption, rather than simply bonded.

    It's an annoying thing caused by ANet using the same word to mean many things.

    Is there something in having free willed minions that allows one to share the burden of magic? We are able to collect volatile and unbound magic almost like a minion would. But I don't think we send it to Aurene?

    Maybe? I mean, if Aurene branded Taimi would Taimi still suffer from her health condition? Does branding grant immunity from aging and the effects of magic overdose like insanity?

    It obviously doesn't grant immortality but has a branded minion ever died from old age? Does Aurene absorb that magic, filter it, then release it to its minions in a healthier form?

  • EdwinLi.1284EdwinLi.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:

    It obviously doesn't grant immortality but has a branded minion ever died from old age? Does Aurene absorb that magic, filter it, then release it to its minions in a healthier form?

    It is more of a certain limited Immortality rather than true Immortality. The infusing and changing of a being from Dragon Magic seems to allow them to keep their physical appearance based on how the change affects them to a point they may stop aging but they can still die if suffered from serious injuries.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, it depends on how you're defining champion
    Ryland, Caithe, and the Commander are unique to dragon champions ins that they have free will and are bonded, which makes them "champions" but not "dragon champions" as we've known. Meanwhile Glint and the Pale Tree are dragon champions, and they were cleansed after corruption, rather than simply bonded.

    Ryland and Caithe are technically both corrupted minions of their respective Dragon, thus they should both count towards Dragon Champion category.
    Ryland, like the rest of the Frost Legion is an Icebrood Charr and Caithe is a the currently only member of the Aurene-branded.
    This so-called bonding still is dragon corruption. Don't get confused by this new wording.
    We've seen dragon minions with their minds (mostly) intact as early as the Vanilla game, with that one Risen Mesmer in the Personal Story, so Ryland, the Frost Legion and Caithe having their minds intact is nothing new or surprising.

    The only special champion snowflake might be the Commander, who is not (at least not physiologically) corrupted.
    And don't forget that even the commander has Crystal Dragon magic flowing through herself, so that might also count towards dragon corruption.

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    Everytime I feel like, hey maybe we are making progress with Braham as a character, and that his growth arc is happening, he regresses back into a baby.

    Anet. Stop this. Braham doesn't have to express his opinions about everything by whining like a child. He's no longer one.
    Takes like 4 different parties to tell Braham to focus on the threat at hand for him to kitten about Jormag for 2 steps of the quest and HE BACK AT IT.

    I share his reaction though, I too really distrust Jormag, like, really.

    So do I. Things are getting murkier than an Orrian fish tank. No wonder Aurene is just sitting there with a thousand-yard stare. I might join her.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    And Braham isn't whining. He's literally saying "hey, you know that trusting the Elder Dragon of persuasion, who's 150 years of history is literally tricking people into wanting to work with it before corrupting them, is a very bad idea, RIGHT!?" And responding to comments of "but my racial history" with "but my racial and personal history too!"

    Taimi is the one being childish and unreasonable here. And I suspect that Jormag may have been a bit... persuasive to cause that. The Arcane Council - I can see them agreeing without any need of whispers. But Taimi? She should be smarter than that.

    Finally, a voice of reason.

    I understand a lot of us don't like Braham (I don't particularly appreciate him the vast majority of times we see him), but this chapter-ette we see him raising questions nobody else is really willing to address, but he's just getting shouted down. Even if he just shut up during the fights and waited until after the boss was dead to re-raise the issue, the result would probably have been "you're STILL going on about that? Yuck." For the first time ever, I kept wanting to tell the other characters to listen to Sam Riegel Braham for once.

  • The chat with Caithe and Ryland in the Brisband wildlands makes me seriously doubt assumptions on if the commander is a 'true' champion of Aurene.

    I don't get it. Ryland, trying to compare himself and the commander... Ryland is being dumb. And, for that matter Jormag is being a bit dumb too (in talking about having a mortal champion like Aurene's). Aurene's and the commander's relationship is nothing like Jormag's and Ryland's. Aurene hasn't transformed or greatly empowered the commander with her domains of magic. Besides some small mount boons, Aurene's only influence, now, is a boon granting the commander the latest mastery track. The boon itself less about directly giving the commander more power, and more about allowing the commander to recycle collected magics into other boons. Caithe being there emphasizes this difference even more. Caithe isn't the 'champion' but she has been imbued with enough of Aurene's healing and crystal magic to be transformed. She is more like Ryland than the commander right now. So the regular old commander being compared with the other two, kind of emphasizes that the commander isn't really a normal champion.

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:

    @Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:
    Roland and Caithe: this interaction brought up the idea of Champions. What it means means for us and them to be a Champion of a dragon. I think they these interactions we are seeing that the dragon that has a mortal champion is more powerful. I don't think we are done yet understanding who we are to Aurene.

    This brings up something that I've wondered for a while...why did Aurene give Caithe her power and not us? It doesn't make sense considering the deep bond we have. Unless she couldn't or wouldn't for a reason. Considering she can see into the future, it's possible that she foresaw something that could only be done if we were not given her powers directly like Caithe.

    You know... Jormag Compares it's ice with Aurene's crystals. It seems that Jormag and Aurene are similarly forces of order. Aurene is called the prismatic dragon, but, her most upfront domains seems to focused on healing and crystals while Jormag focuses on persuasion (or control) and ice. Both are forces that can bring and maintain order. While Primordu's, fire and 'conflagration' (destruction?) are notably chaotic. And the commander, is also a chaotic force. Everything done so far has been about dismantling ancient mechanisms of the world. Also, remember, the infallible Joko's speech to the commander (Praise Joko!)... He may be egotistical to irrational ends, but that speech has a lot of truth to it. The commander saved a lot of mortals, and could be using any manner of magic (depending on class). But the consequences of the commander's actions destroying a lot of powerful ancient forces are quite chaotic. Joko's accusations are actually backed up. Maybe I just love that cutscene too much, but I want to believe (in Joko).

    I think the key to Aurene and the commander's relationship is that they represent opposite forces. Aurene is a force of order to the world. However, in being the prismatic dragon (something that can hold all forms of magic), Aurene also recognizes the need for chaos. Kralkatorric's death was was what allowed her to Ascend in the first place. The commander led Kralk's destruction freeing up his magic so Aurene could evolve it into a new form. Giving the commander her form of magic is beside the point. The commander isn't an extension of Aurene's power, but a counterpoint to it. Even the new boon Aurene gave the commander doesn't power itself. It isn't remotely tied to healing, and may instead be tied to the new 'prismatic' aspects of magic. This boon transforms magic, released by other minions, into something useful for the commander. It feeds of the commander destroying those minions.

    But the commander is no elder dragon. Aurenes powers could vastly overwhelm anything the commander can do. Perhaps Aurene is standing back, because she needs the commander's chaotic tendencies to do more work. And, theoretically, Aurene's true opposite is the deep sea dragon. Which no one seems to know anything about. So, I wonder, if the commander is just a test run for Aurene to cooperate with the deep sea dragon. Maybe the commander is like the DSD lite. Aurene practicing her own magic in amounts measured against commander's effects. When the DSD dragon arrives Aurene's real work can begin.

    @RyuDragnier.9476 said:
    Well, that, or...the Commander is already the champion of the EDs "mother", which leads to a theory that Tyria itself is an ED. Though that theory could hold water as to why "the balance" doesn't exist. It may just be that too much energy going off would wake "mother" and just lead to destruction from her moving around, leading to the EDs mere existence being to regulate the magical energy so she doesn't wake up. Which would also explain why the Human Gods left, it would be something that would make their mere presence there a serious threat to everything that exists on Tyria.

    But... if we are going to go really far into the deep end of theories. I agree that the commander isn't a true (or normal) champion of Aurene. They are more opposites. If anything, the commander is an unwitting champion to the deep sea dragon. Powered by whatever the opposite of Aurene is, the commander destroyed a lot of things. Elder dragons, gods, the commander even defeated death. Something powerful is watching over the commander.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    Aurene hasn't transformed or greatly empowered the commander with her domains of magic.

    Both the Crystal Champion mastery line from LWS4, and the current Dragon Slayer mastery line, are her doing just that.

  • @PseudoNewb.5468 said:
    This boon transforms magic, released by other minions, into something useful for the commander. It feeds of the commander destroying those minions.

    Like mini Elder dragon

    If anything, the commander is an unwitting champion to the deep sea dragon.

    Or (absurd idea) Scion of DSD.

    Powered by whatever the opposite of Aurene is, the commander destroyed a lot of things. Elder dragons, gods, the commander even defeated death. Something powerful is watching over the commander.

    This is all a plan of DSD