Suggestions to the Balance Team towards the PVE - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Suggestions to the Balance Team towards the PVE

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  • It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    At the same time, I never saw a game where everyone is so much of metasheep as this one, even a lot of static groups will follow qT guides blindly even if the setup don't work for them and refuse to adjust one or two roles to something that isn't meta even if it might make the run smoother for them. Let's not even talk about pugs because these are the ultimate meta-kitten.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    This literally cannot happen until we remove the sheer amount of passive power in the game. The current meta we have is stack all the strong passive status, then get 24/7 boon uptime. This has to change for use to see any real composition changes.

  • Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

  • vicious.5683vicious.5683 Member ✭✭✭

    You can be sure of two things when speaking about Anet balance team:
    1. WoW balance seems perfect when compared to GW2 balance.
    2. You know a balance team stinks, when a single class has been neglected for 5 years in dungeons/raids.

  • Rain.7543Rain.7543 Member ✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rain.7543 said:
    Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

    As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

    You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

    Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.
    Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!
    Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.
    Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.
    aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.
    Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

    First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

    As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

  • Scipion.7548Scipion.7548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

    Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :
    In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

    The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

    If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse, the big bad wow has item spiral :anguished: the big bad wow is much older :( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

  • So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board, so everyone does the same thing but just with different animations right?
    If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

    Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :
    In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

    The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

    If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse, the big bad wow has item spiral :anguished: the big bad wow is much older :( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

    WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

    That's an interesting angle, but it leads to either homogenization of all classes (meaning less class identity) or lack of real balance. Which one do you prefer?

  • Scipion.7548Scipion.7548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

    WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

    The difference is about 12% when taking the best spec of each classes. Can you say there is a 12% of difference between the best build of each classes of GW2 ?

    So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board

    There is a difference between homogeneization and balance. Homogeneization = all classes use the same way. Balance = all classes lead to the same chance of success.

    If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

    I dont play GW2 instead of WoW because GW2 is better but because I play WoW since vanilla and search something new and fresh (and also balanced and with professionnal devs, I hope).

    That's an interesting angle, but it leads to either homogenization of all classes (meaning less class identity) or lack of real balance. Which one do you prefer?

    I admit that perfect balance don't exist, it's an ideal, but even without homogenization of all classes you can have a game that is enough balanced to permit the players to play the class and even the spec they want if they don't aim the top 0,1%. There is a balance between the balance and the homogenization.
    In fact what is frustrating is not the lack of balance of GW2, it is the fact that Anet doesn't seem to aim the ideal of balance.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SmashGd.1056 said:
    Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

    Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Are you seriously comparing the balance of an expansion which is out for over 1 year (August 30th, 2016. Legion release), with one that is out for 4 weeks (Sept. 22nd, 2017).

    Wow, just wow. That's bias right there.

    How about you pull some benchmarks from WoW 4 weeks post launch of Legion as comparison?

    That's not even getting into all the issues of how streamlined and normalised all of WoWs classes are by now as well as itemisation, etc. etc.

    still each 1 day expansion in wow was more balanced than gw2 way way more. more options were for dps and still 4 tanks were good and same for healers like 5 option for healers. HoT was like 2 years and didn't manage to balance the necro or other specs which were useless. legion had balance on the first day than HoT after 2 years and GW2 core of 3 years all together.

    You are so biased, it's insulting to WoW players (and uninformed at that, which is even worse).

    How balanced was warrior tank at release of Legion? Compared to Death Knight?

    How balanced is resto druid compared to other healers?

    I could go on but honestly, why bother. You have already shown you have 0 clue of WoW meta and how it works.

    Blizzard does a balance roulet which let's every class be on top for a while. WoW is nothing but unbalanced, and that's by design.

    so 2 years of HoT was more balanced than 1 day of legion or cataclysm right????????

    That's beside the point. The games are completely different. Blizzard gets to reinvent and remake their class balance and fix the issues they create with each expansion. They've also normalised and taken all uniquness out of their class system to streamline and provide content faster ever since WotlK. Also no, every single expansion there has huge outliers in balance, and that's with a team and financial means which are far beyond Arenanets.

    GW2 actually has unique classes with unique playstyles and buffs/mechanics and due to its not increasing level cap and gear cap is a way more difficult monster to balance.

    Those are the things you are leaving out in your rant which make a huge difference.

    I'm sorry, but that's beyond ignorant.

    WoW has more classes total with as much as 3 viable specs per class, which play completely differently from each spec. I can't believe you would make a statement like this.

    Yes, keep focusing on quantity over quality. I've experienced Blizzards balance skills often enough both in a high end pve enviroment and pvp enviroment.

    Coming to a different game and braggin abaout how good it is is beyond ignorant. Want me to share a link to the Blizzard official forums?

    Put off the rose tinted glasses. They make you talk funny.

    That you would even say a demonhunter plays the same as a death knight or a shadow priest to an elemental shaman or a combat rogue to a survival hunter tells me how little you actually know of what you're talking about.

    I never said so, but since we are comparing: are you implying GW2 classes play similar?

    I said they normalised skills accross multiple classes (especially healing and support). There is a difference there. There is no unique skills for any WoW class any longer. It makes balance a lot easier.

    No, they haven't. A holy paladin heals rather differently from a discipline priest or a resto shaman. The most similar healers are holy priest and resto druid, and it's a passing resemblance.

    The difference being the delta in performance among GW2 DPS specs is terribly large compared to WoW's current expansions. It's not even close to claim homogenization. Only group buffs equivalent of auras were homogenized.

  • Daffan.8924Daffan.8924 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    From a game without a trinity, to a game with one of the strictest versions of it.
    In other mmorpgs you need a tank, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a chronomancer.
    In other mmorpgs you need a healer, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a druid

    I know that it's very possible to finish Raids without those, and for example Tempest healer is better healer than Druid.
    But this is the most optimal way to play and unfortunately we've seen nothing from the developers to change it, even after adding 9 new elite specs to the game.

    WoW is exactly the same. From the first 20 Sargeras Mystic kills 19 of them used druids as tanks (not the first raid of the expansion). There will be always an optimal way to play. You can change it but you can't remove it. Removing unique buffs just makes it worse. With unique buffs you have a reason to take classes even if they are not on the top. Without it just pick the best and rotate whatever the best of the current patch is.

    Difference is the vast majority (99%) of WoW population, even Mythic raiders don't give two craps about World First composition like rerolling 15 boomkins, or changing entire roster to Guardian tanks/only pugging Guardian tanks, or only taking Havoc DH for mythic +. Hell, their main tank might have alts but they'l run at least 1 warrior/dk/pala OT for fun/differences.

    There is no class that is worthless to bring. There is no spec that is worthless to bring. There is no class that is 100% required stacking like Chrono/Warrior.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

    Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :
    In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

    The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

    If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse, the big bad wow has item spiral :anguished: the big bad wow is much older :( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

    WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

    Noxxic is garbage. Icy Veins ftw.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scipion.7548 said:
    I admit that perfect balance don't exist, it's an ideal, but even without homogenization of all classes you can have a game that is enough balanced to permit the players to play the class and even the spec they want if they don't aim the top 0,1%.

    You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

  • Raif.9507Raif.9507 Member ✭✭

    @Daffan.8924 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    From a game without a trinity, to a game with one of the strictest versions of it.
    In other mmorpgs you need a tank, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a chronomancer.
    In other mmorpgs you need a healer, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a druid

    I know that it's very possible to finish Raids without those, and for example Tempest healer is better healer than Druid.
    But this is the most optimal way to play and unfortunately we've seen nothing from the developers to change it, even after adding 9 new elite specs to the game.

    WoW is exactly the same. From the first 20 Sargeras Mystic kills 19 of them used druids as tanks (not the first raid of the expansion). There will be always an optimal way to play. You can change it but you can't remove it. Removing unique buffs just makes it worse. With unique buffs you have a reason to take classes even if they are not on the top. Without it just pick the best and rotate whatever the best of the current patch is.

    Difference is the vast majority (99%) of WoW population, even Mythic raiders don't give two craps about World First composition like rerolling 15 boomkins, or changing entire roster to Guardian tanks/only pugging Guardian tanks, or only taking Havoc DH for mythic +. Hell, their main tank might have alts but they'l run at least 1 warrior/dk/pala OT for fun/differences.

    There is no class that is worthless to bring. There is no spec that is worthless to bring. There is no class that is 100% required stacking like Chrono/Warrior.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @nsleep.7839 said:
    It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

    It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

    Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :
    In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

    The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

    If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse, the big bad wow has item spiral :anguished: the big bad wow is much older :( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

    http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

    WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

    Noxxic is garbage. Icy Veins ftw.

    And for what point they want to make... Noxxic and icy Veins both are useless (though at least Icy Veins isn't trash). Warcraftlogs would make that point way better and shows a much smaller gap https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=99.

    Either way, no one but around 5 guilds compete for World First races and class stack during it to make world first. Once Mythic kills go out and strats are done, class diversity even in mythic guilds, expands.

    Saying a class isn't viable because there are none in World Firsts in WoW is... stupid. World First races use as many bugs, "exploits", and unintended uses of mechanics to get that first kill and those guilds have 5 characters ready to go and swap per boss in those races.

  • Scipion.7548Scipion.7548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

    No game let me play an idiot spec in high-end content yes. But most games simply just provides working specs to the players. GW2 provides a ton of things but just 1% of those things are working. WoW provides 3 ways to play a class (4 for the druid and 2 for the DH) while GW2 provides officially an infinite number of way to play but in the end there 0 to 1 way to play a class in raid, pvp, fractal, etc.

    Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ? Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't. If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

  • Warlyx.6732Warlyx.6732 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @SmashGd.1056 said:
    Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

    Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

    mesmer as a whole u mean because chrono is whats left for Mesmer to do any group content

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

    No game let me play an idiot spec in high-end content yes. But most games simply just provides working specs to the players. GW2 provides a ton of things but just 1% of those things are working. WoW provides 3 ways to play a class (4 for the druid and 2 for the DH) while GW2 provides officially an infinite number of way to play but in the end there 0 to 1 way to play a class in raid, pvp, fractal, etc.

    Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ? Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't. If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

    This has more to do with how GW2 is designed from the ground up (without a trinity) than with class balance.

    You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

    While raids have seen a sort of soft trinity emerge and arenanet have moved more in a direction of support builds, you can't remake an entire game from the ground up.

    I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2. Better leave now and rejoin for GW3, or addapt and accept GW2 for what it is.

    EDIT: seeing people in this thread talk about tanking makes me believe most here haven't set 1 step into raids and are just complaining for complaining sake. Tanking is not needed in 99% of GW2.

    EDIT 2: and noticing the time it is again, yes I get it, WoW hasn't had significant new content or expansion come out for over 1 year and the next expansion is not even announced yet. So people spill over into other games and try to enjoy themselves. This has happened in the past, and people then too wanted to make GW2 into a WoW clone. It didn't happen then, it won't happen now. I hate to bring the "please leave back to WoW card" but seriously, some people in this thread might be a lot happier with a game more similar to WoW. FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rain.7543 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rain.7543 said:
    Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

    As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

    You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

    Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.
    Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!
    Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.
    Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.
    aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.
    Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

    First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

    As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

    then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @OnizukaBR.8537 said:
    So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board, so everyone does the same thing but just with different animations right?
    If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

    did ya read the first sentences of the post? No kitbag answers like "then go play wow". I've opened a discussion how to improve the game but ya enjoy this imbalance. It just looks really bad.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scipion.7548 said:
    Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ? Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't. If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

    I don't know about Warriors but Thieves can tank very well, Guardians can tank, Necromancers can tank and Elementalists can tank on most Raid bosses without serious problems. Elementalists can heal, Guardians can heal (!!!) and Revenants can heal (!!!), I think a Mesmer can heal well too but not exactly sure on the build. I'm sure other professions can play tank/healer well too but those I've seen in action and I know they work in those roles. The game has more than enough good tanks and more than enough good healers, there is LOTS of variety here.

    The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that the "meta" tank (Chronomancer) and the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options. This is the major issue, offensive buffs that combined (Chrono+Druid+PS) triple the damage output of the team. TRIPLE damage by having all three. That's the reason we have limited variety in Raids, if you replace the Druid or the Chrono, you'll be fine regarding healing and survival but your dps will suffer. It's all about the offensive/damage buffs

  • @Draco.9480 said:
    I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "it's not wow"......

    @Draco.9480 said:
    and look at the WoW 7.3 benchmark.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I ask myself. how come ALL the DPS SPECS in WOW are good more or less.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    some awkward barriers for 2 seconds that no one cares that was stolen from WoW which like at least 5 classes in WoW can grant bubbles and last like way way longer.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    with their own unique rotation like in WoW.......

    WOW

  • I wonder how many of you here actually played or play WoW... "Whaaah the 7.3 benchmark is balanced!!!". After 10 years, you're actually getting balanced numbers, but guess what? It's for Patchwork fights, where you can stand still and dps without a worry in the world. You know how many fights you have like that in Tomb of Sargeras? None, you'll always have to dodge mechanics, dps adds, and there are also cleave mechanics. Do you think these numbers stay like that?

  • Rain.7543Rain.7543 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Draco.9480 said:
    then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.

    Considering both Engi's and Condi rangers hit about 30+k dps at the moment, not to mention that both rangers will be getting Pinpoint Distribution on top of that, I think its pretty easy to figure out that it will not be an issue at all, -if- those both engi's and rangers know what they are doing. Xera mid is a strat done during the first phase, to avoid moving about and clear shards, so why wouldnt they be able to? But you just picked a niche part of my post and focused on that, because you clearly lack any arguments to back up your claims of the so-called poor balance and its start more and more to show that you just rant randomly, because your necro is laregely neglected and it has been in recent patches. However there is that also:

    3 scourges. Pretty sure your group could replicate that if they were really hitting qT benchmarks, no?

  • Coconut.7082Coconut.7082 Member ✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rain.7543 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rain.7543 said:
    Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

    As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

    You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

    Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.
    Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!
    Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.
    Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.
    aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.
    Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

    First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

    As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

    then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.

    I don't care much for the rest of the discussion here, just want to know why the hell do you think Xera is not doable in the middle with 2 Engis/2 Rangers?
    The sole reason why Power classes are taken on Xera is because of the second phase (and "pre-event" which is faster with Power), Condi classes will actually complete the first phase faster (well, at least before PoF, haven't tried now with Weavers out there) due to more DPS on target.
    In fact, the DPS check to do the first phase in the middle is so small, that it can be done even by 8 people.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Niobium.7392 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "it's not wow"......

    @Draco.9480 said:
    and look at the WoW 7.3 benchmark.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I ask myself. how come ALL the DPS SPECS in WOW are good more or less.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    some awkward barriers for 2 seconds that no one cares that was stolen from WoW which like at least 5 classes in WoW can grant bubbles and last like way way longer.....

    @Draco.9480 said:
    with their own unique rotation like in WoW.......

    WOW

    That's perfect!! And I will say it, as you have mentioned it so many times, just go back to WOW, seriously mate. You obviously are very very dishearten with GW2 so do yourself and your health and us a favour and just go back.
    Yea, I thought tanking in this game would be like WOW, ESO, SWTOR, and all but I was wrong. And having been a main tank for a hardcore guild as well I was kinda bummed. But did I cry and scream and carry on that the Devs must change it or else? NO! I just went with it and its fun as. Yea, the raids need work but they are only barely 2 years in and WOW is what...15? And back in the day WOW had a raid where you had to bring a Mage to tank else you couldn't do it. Don't see many of those fights now as its all become so basic. I could be wrong with new expac as I left when it rolled out but yea, even the greats cave now and then to the general player base. LFR was the worst thing Blizzard ever did for raids yet I see people come on here and cry for the same. Please no.
    But I ramble now.....OP, you clearly are a WOW fanboy and that's fine, just don't come here demanding or even suggesting that ANET follow Blizzard.

  • Scipion.7548Scipion.7548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

    >

    The analogy isn't correct. Now a trinity has emerged, the bank is now a fruit store but the fruits are unbalanced (only apple, no ananas !).

    I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2.

    I don't want an hard trinity. I totally accepted since the beginning that there is no pure DPS, healers and tanks in this game. I don't want a 100% healer. But hey, there healer stuff, healer weapons (mace/staff for the guard), healer runes, healer utility skills, so ok a 100% healer guy don't exist but a healing oriented guy is reasonable no ?
    All I wanted was to be a "healer or def support oriented" guardian, which is permitted by Anet ... When I created my character, the guardian was (and always is) described like that "Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic. A deep sense of loyalty to their allies fuels their passion and power." Defense, protection, allies, that is a tanky healer right ? Can I play a tanky healer oriented guardian in fractals, raids, etc while stile being competitive (optimal ?) and so accepted by the majority of the players ? If the answer is no, Anet failed for me.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options.

    I know that Firebrand provides more healing than druid, but in the day of the end, which of them has the healer slot ? Healers are unbalanced, maybe not because of their healing, but they are still extremely unbalanced.

    I don't want making GW2 a WOW2. I just want to play in all contents the character Anet promised me when I create it. A tanky healer/def support oriented guardian.

    FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

    FF14 is a japanese garbage for teens. Sorry, i cannot.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @SmashGd.1056 said:
    Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

    Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

    Tbh i think personally invuln share should be changed to aegis (keeping invuln on self). Possible allow aegis to stack (every stack is +1 attack blocked) but that might break things...

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

    >

    The analogy isn't correct. Now a trinity has emerged, the bank is now a fruit store but the fruits are unbalanced (only apple, no ananas !).

    Yeah, a trinity has emerged for part of the games raid bosses (not even all of them) with a most optimal meta and dozens of off perfect meta possibilities. For raid content which to begin with is not that hard.

    Meanwhile in the rest of the 99% of the game this new trinity does not exist.

    I totally call that a bank turning into a fruit store.

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2.

    I don't want an hard trinity. I totally accepted since the beginning that there is no pure DPS, healers and tanks in this game. I don't want a 100% healer. But hey, there healer stuff, healer weapons (mace/staff for the guard), healer runes, healer utility skills, so ok a 100% healer guy don't exist but a healing oriented guy is reasonable no ?
    All I wanted was to be a "healer or def support oriented" guardian, which is permitted by Anet ... When I created my character, the guardian was (and always is) described like that "Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic. A deep sense of loyalty to their allies fuels their passion and power." Defense, protection, allies, that is a tanky healer right ? Can I play a tanky healer oriented guardian in fractals, raids, etc while stile being competitive (optimal ?) and so accepted by the majority of the players ? If the answer is no, Anet failed for me.

    So to sum your grief up: "I can't be a support healer in raids as my guardian. The entire game needs to be rebalanced because in 1% of the content my class of choice does not play the way I want it to."

    Yeah, totally warrants a groundbreaking change and redo of the entire balance system.

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options.

    I know that Firebrand provides more healing than druid, but in the day of the end, which of them has the healer slot ? Healers are unbalanced, maybe not because of their healing, but they are still extremely unbalanced.

    So this is a nerf druid thread in disguise? How do people in WoW feel about resto druids in 2v2 or 3v3 matchups (them being dominant for multiple years with paladins before that. Not sure what the flavor of the month healer is now)?

    If you spent 1/2 the time finding a decent guild and friends ingame with whom to raid with instead of whining on the forums, you would have had your possibility to run a healing whatever class with them. Most raid guilds which are not hardcore are very flexible.

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    I don't want making GW2 a WOW2. I just want to play in all contents the character Anet promised me when I create it. A tanky healer/def support oriented guardian.

    Which guardian is. In 99% of the game (even WvW).

    @Scipion.7548 said:

    FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

    FF14 is a japanese garbage for teens. Sorry, i cannot.

    That's how quite a few people here feel about WoW. Imagine how they feel with all these WoW comparisons and balance ideas.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Warlyx.6732 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @SmashGd.1056 said:
    Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

    Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

    mesmer as a whole u mean because chrono is whats left for Mesmer to do any group content

    No, I meant chronomancer. Because all chronomancer brings to mesmer is personal sustain, alacrity, large access to quickness, and illusion generation. If you nerf the kitten out of chronomancer in reference to raiding it means severely nerfing our access to alacrity and quickness, which means chrono would bring nothing but personal sustain and illusion generation, and both would already be nerfed by less access to alacrity.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Phil.7369Phil.7369 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    @Draco.9480 said:
    Before I start, I just want to point out that I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "don't like the game? don't play!" or "form your own group and play what you want" or "just give up on useless class/build and move on" or "it's not wow" or "compain cuz can't play your favorite" etc. It's not because I want necro to be good but EVERYONE to be good on POWER and CONDI. Also have few optiosn for TANKs and HEALERS.

    People shouldn't pass raids if they don't invest time in their build/class or don't give a kitten. To invest more mechanics to the bosses.

    To make raid bosses that have mechanics that will make people to get hang of it and pass it like after few weeks. NOT like on the first day like the HoT Raids!

    Good post, I agree with most things but I have to comment on the quoted ones.
    You start with "I don't want to hear this and that".. you don't get to choose what you will hear or not. You make a long post discussing end-game balance expecting not to be criticized or trolled! Forums don't work like this.
    Before returning to GW2 I used to be a power gamer in a different and much smaller MMO and I along with about 10 other players was the sole feedback the devs had about endgame balance. We had made so many suggestions and posted long rants/feedback/ideas and always there was criticism and the typical fanboys/trolls. Eventually we all quitted because the game devs didn't (still don't) give a kitten and had no bugdget to update, but that's a different story. Anyway, my point is you never start a post in such a way if you wish to be taken seriously. Criticism is welcome, troll posts can be ignored and fanboys who have no idea what endgame is can also be ignored or simply exposed until they decide to stop humilliating themselves further. Polite and civilized is almost always the best way to be taken seriously.

    Second quote: "People shouldn't pass raids if this or that"
    I completely disagree with the mentality. But I agree with the "prestige" aspect. A player who dedicates his time in raiding should obviously be rewarded or renowned for his efforts. I agree with the fact that any casual or random player with zero clue of what he's doing should obviously not be on par with a serious power gamer. BUT the moment you exclude people out of content is the moment where your game will start bleeding players. People pay for the expansions and as such they desire to experience the entire game and included the Raids. Tell me... how would a Witcher 3 player feel like if a specific boss fight said "Not for scrubs, pros only"! Would the game still be regarded as one of the best RPGs ever made?
    Do you wish to support and help enrich GW2? I believe you do, but splitting your pve community will not help you with this. So how do we allow casuals to experience Raids too? Well WOW once again has the answer and GW1 also did! Easy Mode/Normal Mode/Hard/Elite/Mythic etc. you name it. A lot of people, myself included don't have time to research meta builds, compare DPS results and train in Raid groups. Working 40+ hours a week leaves you with few play-time and not every day is a gaming day.
    You already compare GW2 to the top MMORPG in the world (WOW) which is good, because one who cares enough should try to compete with the best if he wants to be the best. But look at what aspects of WOW made the game so famous. It is definetly not the "no casuals allowed" mentality.

    3d quote
    As far as I remember Groseval took at least a week to beat from one of the raiding guilds. At least that's what I read and heard in community videos. Could be wrong of course.

    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

  • Andwari.2978Andwari.2978 Member ✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017

    I totally agree with all the points from the TE

  • MrRay.3027MrRay.3027 Member ✭✭✭

    I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrRay.3027 said:
    I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

    Let me ask you this

    Would you rather your gameplay be of quality or do you want to sacrifice quality fights for trivial rewards ?
    Because what i never get is a straight answer from the multi-modal crowd. If raids (which they wont as stated) have easier modes are you guys really okay with the rewards being significantly less than whats currently offered. Because that's quite literally the trade off you're going to get.

    Now then this game has shown us on a number of times that the group that complains about rewards the loudest is often the one not doing the least rewarding content ex. Story Mode Dungeons, T1-T2 fractals, anything other than the highest GP/H map on repeat. To that end designing a space for these people becomes moot as it never sees replay value and eventually becomes dead space.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Phil.7369 said:
    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

    This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Phil.7369 said:
    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

    This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

    careful with what you guys asking for
    the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .
    have fun with that .

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @musu.9205 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Phil.7369 said:
    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

    This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

    careful with what you guys asking for
    the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .
    have fun with that .

    Yea, not looking to make any class useless, just balance things up a bit.

  • musu.9205musu.9205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @musu.9205 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Phil.7369 said:
    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

    This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

    careful with what you guys asking for
    the changes he said may as well lead to a new meta : 2 firebrands support 1 rev healer 1 druid healer 1 soulbeast dps with one spirit 1 dps rev with alacrity buff 1 ps war 1 deadeye or scourge might stacker and 2 slots for dps (firebrand will also take that slots for all bosses you want condi ,otherwise it will be holo or weaver ).and mesmer will be useless in high end pve .
    have fun with that .

    Yea, not looking to make any class useless, just balance things up a bit.

    if anet follow nike suggest , that's what will happen .instead 6 fixed slots we will get 8 fixed slot .
    without dps balance (not just big hit box but also support dps ) , melee vs ranged balance for raid boss design etc . those ideas will just make things worse .
    also if anet wants to balance game around raid role , they have rework traits entirely .

    right now some support needs 2 or 3 trait lines to function like chrono ,some really only require one like rev or firebrand (if you build for quickness). same goes for dps .
    every class just take what you must have then grab highest dps traits usually those +% dmg mod.

    with current trait system . it is impossible to balance around raid role while giving each class standardized buff.and everytime they change something ,some class may be dropped entirely due to lower dps .
    anet didn't even do a great job to balance pure dps build . how worse it could be if they have to balance support build's dps .

    current raid meta isn't ideal or even good . but really the root problem is not just support buff . and if they simply follow what nike suggested , meta will become worse .
    and btw for everyone who forgot , GOTL is exactly what they suggested during HOT beta .

    also if done well , raid content design could create more soft role .

    people who hates current meta most are
    1. who wants to tank as heavy class , that will never gonna happen
    2. who wants more challenging , eve with current raid , they can just drop chrono ,ps , druid and try hard. and hopefully future raid will become harder.
    3. who wants to play what they want , that will never gonna happen
    4. who are sick of playing certain support class , unless anet balance team could dramatically change meta every 3 month , that will just be another meme instead of chrono 5.who wants more soft roles instead of 6 locked slot .so far they havent offer any solid idea that will not turn raid meta into a pure dps race than it is now.
    6.who wants a more balanced game .they have to agree , in order to get that happen, anet needs to balance traits and dps for each spec first before they ever balance support role .

    so yeah , i don't really think that long post is well thought out .

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrRay.3027 said:
    I never understood why people are against different tiers in raids. Besidea the childish reason, of wanting all the toys to yourself.

    The childish reason is "I want the shinies without any effort".

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Joxer.6024 said:

    @Phil.7369 said:
    Read this post to get some ideas: https://dd.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/78gqz6/post_pof_pve_meta_balance_issues/
    Very good job to Nike I must say. A once hated and disrespected "elitist" who acted very toxicly a few years ago, but still a great theory-crafter and power gamer.
    Now he seems to have made a complete Change of Heart. Very civilised tone, detailed and thorough explanation along with proposed solutions to his criticism. I am really amazed by the change in attitude that he has made.

    This really, really, really, REALLY needs to be seen by the Devs! thanks for posting that link! that is just what the game needs for sure and I think it would be a win/win for all!

    What Nike wrote is well put together and makes sense. He points to some of the obvious problems and overpowered features of the 3 classes in the current meta.

    But-

    his suggestion is no solution to the problem people are seeing or arguing about.

    The current meta works because 3 classes provide a maximum amount of benefit required (times two since two squads) while allowing 4 damage dealers to get taken along. Reducing the effectiveness of the 3 support roles (chrono, cPS and druid) would indeed make them less required. At the same time, the loss of utility and support the raid compostion now faces will have to be compensated by other classes. This creates an even stricter meta of up to 8 fixed slots. Potentially with a more diverse mix of classes but with stricter rules as to which builds get taken along and harsher demand for top dps (meaning even less damage builds become viable).

    There is 2 other ways how balance can be approched:

    A.) make other support classes be able to mirror what chrono, cPS or druid can do, creating alternatives. Possible but unrealistic since 100% balance is near impossible. You'd require a significant amount normalisation between the classes as well as less unique buffs or shared buff roles (similar to how WoW dealt with imbalance between classes). In turn making the game more stale.

    B.) a change in requirements of support roles and buffs for raids. Reduce the requirements for support roles in general, meaning: make their main benefits affect 10 instead of 5 people. This way raids groups only need 1 of each support class for their unique benefits and can fill up more slots with dps or different supports. Obviously this would require a massive rebalance both on all damage builds as well as support builds.

    The most obvious solution to depower overpowered classes would not necessarily bring the wanted effect since the demand or requirement for the utility they provide remains unchanged. It would be better to change what is demanded of a raid group in order to force change in what setup is getting taken along.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is actually not as hard to balance the support. Buffs are capped, so if you introduce a new source which can upkeep 100% uptime of quickness/alac/might/whatever, it is effectively balanced against the current sources of these buffs. Granted, there will be variations in group utility and personal dps but it at least enables some trading off (take a build will less utility and more dps or vice versa).

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    The only class that doesn't have a competetiv DPS build right now is necromancer. The rest is pretty close (classes, not power/condi variants). Mesmer can have competetiv DPS in some cases.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

    But when raids were divided between 25 and 10 man you had 2 tanks and 2-3 healer for 10man raiding. More 3 than 2. Thats 50% for the same size.
    Bigger groups tend to have less support than smaller groups. Really bad comparison.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 25, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    Mythic raid size is 20 man. 2 tanks, 3 healers. 5 people out of 20 are a support role. Not half.

    Apples and oranges mate, really. Was just a general example not rocket science. And I never di Mythic 20 mans, just 10 man raids with the good ol 40 man back in the day...so my example stands.
    And in reference to Nike's post the bit I am a big fan of is the might gen part. Having each class passively generate might would be a good thing and allow for other options I think. Until something else comes along banners are pretty much a given but not having to go PS might be better for War, maybe? A lot of his other bits kinda lose me but I get where he headed for the most part but sadly it would all be far to big a project for ANET to do at this stage.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    So 6 slots being reserved to 3 classes is ok? There are quite a few DPS builds that are meta but they have to compete for 4 slots while you have double chrono, double, druid and double ps warrior who are always in the 6 support slots.

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Walhalla.5473 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    So 6 slots being reserved to 3 classes is ok? There are quite a few DPS builds that are meta but they have to compete for 4 slots while you have double chrono, double, druid and double ps warrior who are always in the 6 support slots.

    Meh, you all are never going to agree on any sort of fix or comprise or solution. Peeps will always find a way to tear someone down.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Joxer.6024 said:
    I actually don't mind the current "meta" where you take the needed support roles and then 4 dps. That's plenty really. No different from WOW really in that you had 1/2 tanks, healers and then some cc filled in by dps.
    Would just be nice if the 4 dps slots could become more open for other classes, that's all I would like. You cant get away from the other as its needed really.

    The only class that doesn't have a competetiv DPS build right now is necromancer. The rest is pretty close (classes, not power/condi variants). Mesmer can have competetiv DPS in some cases.

    To be fair, necromancer is about as niche as mesmer in regards to dps. It is still useful on fights with a lot of adds. We ran one on Xera yesterday and it had second-best cleave. The biggest difference is, mesmers have the chrono build which is invaluable support and necromancers don't.

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