To Anet: Fix upgrade times plz, current system not logical — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home WvW

To Anet: Fix upgrade times plz, current system not logical

Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 22, 2020 in WvW

So I'll just simplify this out because long walls of text tend to get ignored:
1. When WvW upgrade system was designed, the supplies required for keep, towers and castles to upgrade were independent from each other
2. Then new upgrade system was introduced with HoT, where Keeps, castles and towers required same amount of dollies to upgrade, most likely because the player braincapacity to learn different numbers was underestimated
There is no logic in towers, keeps and castles requiring same amount of dolyaks. Average upgrade time of SM dropped from 10 hours+ to under 2 hours and people can get T3 bay under 1 hour. Current system is oversimplified

However I am not saying that upgrade times shouldn't be shorter than in the past, they should just be longer than currently. Objectives should require more tending to get upgraded so they hold more value to players.

So suggested changes in required amount dollies is:
Towers require 20/40/80 dolyaks (like currently)
Keeps require 40/80/160 dolyaks (double of current)
Castles require 60/120/240 dolyaks (triple of current)
plus Packed dolyaks shouldn't count as double for upgrade to remove the "4 times faster upgrading just by speeding dollies with permasuperspeed builds" abuse

This system would allow WvW more map states than T3 SM being standard across all tiers and all Home bls being easily T3d to a point where small groups don't dare to go there. The extinction of small groups going for objectives is boring for scouts too. Support smaller groups, return dolyak/camp wars, reestablish upgrade balance, reduce SM camping!

Also nerf claim buff, siege hp and shield gens to return objective fights and long term sieges please

Riformed - Back but playing casually
Diamond Legend
~Fix WvW plz~

Comments

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With regards to the "spoiler", the attacker already has every advantage. They can not reduce siege health until they require every weapon skill to have a target AND require line of sight to the target. Rangers can already destroy siege in a few casts of barrage, making it 1 cast is ridiculous (as an example).

    But yes, not only should the number of upgrade dolyaks not be the same for every structure type, SMC should not even have supply huts/supply to use.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Somewhere in the distant past, folks complained that servers with 24/7 coverage had an advantage over servers that also had good numbers but only over a time zone such as NA-East. So, as I recall, and maybe I'm wrong, WvW was changed so that what happens over a single skirmish matters to the overall scores.

    Are we asking to change it back? Remember, 80% of war score is PPT.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Support smaller groups

    You know what happened yesterday, when I was tagged with my guildraid of a whooping 3 people?

    When we went to the enemy T3 spawncamp because it was an obvious target for our little group, there was already 2 on our side there capping it.

    They said "lol why are you even tagged ppt noob".

    I said "if you would have been tagged I wouldnt have went here" as my group could have gone down the other side of the border.

    They just lolled.

    Moral of the story is that this a player issue. And I wasnt even tagged specifically for the little raid - I tagged up because our spawntower had been taken by the enemy 10 minutes earliet, no one did anything about it... and we had our kitten catas still up on it from earlier. So I sat on one and tagged up. And I chose to stay tagged after, But apparently, that is a big no no if you are in a small group.

    Players discourage smallscale, not Anet.
    Players are ineffective at controlling a border, not Anet.
    Players scoff at killing dollies as something they dont have to do because someone else does it (right after they tell roamers to gtfo off the border so the zerg can scrim), not Anet.

    Whatever Anet does, it wont change players.

    It isn't ununsual for everything to be T3 outside south towers these days:

    • Even if someone wanted to run with smaller group, best they can do is flip camps because the upgrade status of objectives.
    • Majority never wanted to play with small groups, it would beat the purpose of it. You have less than 5 people in squad? Point is supporting people who want to play with each other or start small either by scouting or havocking. Also helps commanders build up numbers gradually without wanting to off themselves instead of relying on this instant queue mentality.
    • Point would be for these small groups to have more timeframes to battle over upgrading objectives instead of these objectives zooming up to tier 2 in less than hour and Tier 3 in less than 2. This would give scouts more action too because nothing is more boring than dead home bl with just a few camp flippers.
    • Needless to say, most people that start the gamemode or commanding at start, wanna take it easy and chill sieging some stuff with occassional fights. This is to learn the basics. But the map state virtually forces your first time commanding session to be on discord, or feeding clouds on eb, outnumbered to do much.
    • Yes, most people don't like the idea of eating snails, doesn't mean government should do everything to stop it. Only supporting non snail eaters (blobbers in this case) by banning snails would be a failure as running smaller is a quite a popular kink because combat is more immersive and less laggy while there being less pressure on one.

    Riformed - Back but playing casually
    Diamond Legend
    ~Fix WvW plz~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @Pemberly.6305 said:
    Somewhere in the distant past, folks complained that servers with 24/7 coverage had an advantage over servers that also had good numbers but only over a time zone such as NA-East. So, as I recall, and maybe I'm wrong, WvW was changed so that what happens over a single skirmish matters to the overall scores.

    Are we asking to change it back? Remember, 80% of war score is PPT.

    Coverage issues are not so urgent at this moment, even though relinking system is quite laughable with some combinations being full+full, and full+very high while others have easily 30% less players. New scoring system is also separate from the problem at hand and it will still be at place to halt these big PPT servers. If you ask me, relinking system should be halted (with reduced tiers) and population algorithm fixed as it causes other set of problems in lowest and highest tiers but upgrade speed and claim buff affects all tiers and is definitely more urgent to get fixed.

    Point of these changes would make it so that having fun with a smaller group separate from main tag, or even lacking numbers, would be more actionrich and you would have more power to make a difference. Logging in wouldn't be 90% choosing between T3 objectives and trying to frantically gather a blob to have a chance to assault one but rather more T2 and T1 objectives. This would also give people more reason to log in at off-hours even when there isn't a commander, because it wouldn't just be unstoppable blobs from enemy side. You can just observe how uninteractive T3 SM is on EB with billions of people hiding on walls with siege farming any incomings with ease every day, this happens on lesser scale at side keeps on borderlands as well.

    Riformed - Back but playing casually
    Diamond Legend
    ~Fix WvW plz~

  • Unfortunately, the laziness and entitlement of GW2's community is a limitless void of victims and hypocrites. All most people want is reward for minimal effort and a pat on the back.
    The scene of small groups and roamers are a fraction of what they used to be for a variety of reasons, but automatic upgrades, Tactivators, Mounts, and buffs to objective defenses are some of the primary reasons this scale of WvW continues to shrink. There's too much of a discrepancy between effort to reward ratio and people just aren't interested if they know they could do the same thing much faster and safer with a zerg.

    I understand ANet's struggle to appease both large and small scale players in WvW, but I'm also not certain they care to cater to the latter. I often feel to them that WvW is strictly large scale with the option to play small scale but with no concern for what balance changes might do to it.

    I see it like this-

    • It can't be too easy for a couple players, or even one player, to get inside and possibly capture an objective, especially if it's upgraded. If it's during a time of low activity or it's a low population server then there simply won't be coverage to protect said objectives and it becomes too easy for small groups to dominate.
    • ANet understands that rewarding scouting isn't realistically possible because there are so many ways it could be exploited and scouting is a very broad responsibility. They added Watch Tower and Marked to make scouting less necessary and to promote more activity, but it also has the side effect of rewarding passive game play, and in tandem with Mounts, makes it significantly harder to do anything in small groups/solo without getting overwhelmed.
    • They also added automatic upgrades to prevent players from stalling upgrades, trolling, having to spend coin, and ensuring objectives progress in tier during low activity. Although this promotes more activity like Watch Tower and Marked, it again also rewards passive game play and punishes small groups.

    Roaming and small scale has always been risky and not about reward, but about challenge and being a pest to the enemy. Unfortunately, even the most stubborn players can be broken by constant failures to accomplish anything and so either quit entirely or resort to safer means.

    I think people just need to accept that unless ANet is willing to start considering these things the rare times they make changes to WvW, it's going to take tenfold the effort and knowledge to do anything meaningful without a zerg, and the challenge is the only reward it can provide.

    I still float around myself from time to time, but a whole lot less so than I used to, and I often do so as discreetly as possible because I'm not skilled enough to consistently win outnumbered fights. Although that has always been a part of roaming, it is pretty well a guarantee at this point because of Mounts and Marked. It can still be fun, and I enjoy sneaking around damaging towers, contesting Waypoints, and having some good fights, but generally it's too frustrating to invest myself in for long.

    [YWY] Weeping Valley //
    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    I fully agree with what Dawdler.8521 said above.

    2 days ago there is a Tag (say Tag B ) calling for "everyone on the map" to go to them, when that didn't happen, they offered to pay off the other tag (Tag A), Tag A has been running in small group keeping everything as protected as possible.... Tag B has enough fun, they tag-off after maybe 1 hour, but Tag A stays to protect.

    Now that is out of the way

    I am fine with the upgrading system, there is no need to change it.
    The problem is NOT the upgrading system, it lies with the player's mindset - "I want to be a fight guild" I am going to zerg down the other players, what they really mean is "bags". When the most obvious place you are going to get fight constantly are The Camps. I said it many times, you need to fight/protect at camps, fight at the Hyleks/Dredge, fight/protect the southern most towers - entry point of enemy, cut them off and you won't have invaders going north, Who in history has people fight outside own Keep/Castle. ??

    meanwhile with proper coordination , smaller havoc groups can kill off the sneakies that went pass the check point .

    So why the above support my reason for a no to changing the upgrading system?
    if you have a good play on the map , non of your tower/keep/castle gonna upgrade. Players no doing the correct thing don't deserve to have it dumb down, because it will still be the same since your strategy is bad.

    so, no to any change to the upgrading system.

    BTW
    Anet put little suggestion everywhere in wvw
    like why the sub groups in a squad is 5
    and why you can flip keeps and towers with 3-5 players.
    all the parapet, vistas, little hills are all hints

    EDIT again, I knew I have forgotten something
    Delivery to EBG Keep is double the time that of tower, since the yak doesn't go directly to the keep, they has to go thru the tower , again it all boils down to strategy.

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    Delivery to EBG Keep is double the time that of tower, since the yak doesn't go directly to the keep, they has to go thru the tower , again it all boils down to strategy.

    The Yak has to go to keep before respawning and keeps are fed by multiple camps. So keeps actually upgrade faster unlike what you suggest.

    Riformed - Back but playing casually
    Diamond Legend
    ~Fix WvW plz~

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Overall they made WvW super easy by introducing fast upgrading, massive defensive combat advantages and messed up siege balance. Of course there are only mindless zerglings left in the game after 5 years. Why start use your brain if only thing left in the game is to zerg around onepushing some PvE players doing their weekly pips?

    All the arguments against increasing upgrade Times is "playerbase doesnt want a challenge". Duh, no1s gonna log in regularly for a challenge in a gamemode that stripped it away years ago. Example: want to snipe dollies? 1 guy can just log in minstrel and make the Dolly unkillable due to introduced 90% damage reduction. Point proven, one way of playing the game was removed for absolutely no reason, like 50% damage reduction woulda been enough.

    In summary people who like using brain, havocing, running in small groups and upgrading will play a game that allows them to do so, and they do log in time to time to check of the game is fixed, but with current balance they will never stick around. So having playerbase that doesnt mind bad balance doesnt mean it shouldnt be fixed. You cant expect small groups to enjoy the game first and then make balance enjoyable for them.

    Riformed - Back but playing casually
    Diamond Legend
    ~Fix WvW plz~

  • @Threather.9354 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    Delivery to EBG Keep is double the time that of tower, since the yak doesn't go directly to the keep, they has to go thru the tower , again it all boils down to strategy.

    The Yak has to go to keep before respawning and keeps are fed by multiple camps. So keeps actually upgrade faster unlike what you suggest.

    What server are you from? because on my WvW I can see difference of keeps tier up time when the server know what they are doing vs those headless lemmings following bad tag around not planning correctly.

    One week I notice my server does not have a keep waypoint for more than 6 hours since reset but the other servers already t3 their keep in less than 3 hours.

    Even if Anet listen to you and change the supply delivery numbers to different objective, it is still going to be the same thing if your server aren't doing the correct thing.

    There is no need to change something that is not going to make the game any better, let them work on the restructuring.

    There will always be good and badly plan server, server/guild who work together, and those that doesn't. if you can't coordinat and play a good match you can't hope to pull other server down because they have good planning.

  • hunkamania.7561hunkamania.7561 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Current system is terrible and supports turtle gameplay.. The game was actually better when the keeps were paper.

    Aurora Glade Server Leader

    [VR] Violent Resolution - SoS

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    Current system is terrible and supports turtle gameplay.. The game was actually better when the keeps were paper.

    Indeed, in the past commander could tag up and start with 5 players then hit unupgraded SM spending 30 min taking it and in the end they might have 15 players which would be enough to hit side keeps on borderlands. So gradually grow up instead of this "discord announcement for instant 35+ people" meta where any guild sized group will just avoid upgraded objectives because they would be beat by any similarly skilled group near enemy territory. The combat balance isn't great either due to superspeed upkeep and reduced damage making any ranged burst strats obsolete.

    Basically current system is ran purely on commanders trying to relive their glory days and almost no new leaders are sprouting because starting small and having no existing relationships from old days to feed off is such a pain. And this leads into having less groups to work with or defend against.

    Yes, SM is below T2 sometimes for an hour but that means enemy will most likely still have massive group around. Imagine having such luck that you log in exactly at that hour and enemy massive blob still isn't around. WvW is dying exactly because the timeframes to have good time are so narrow, of course one can ignore the timeframes but that won't make his time any better.

    Another issue with this forced discord blob meta is that the moment one tags up and announces it on discord, he takes part responsibility to provide good time to those 40+ people, it isn't just "we want to play the game at the same time" anymore but more about the one man show. The weight that responsibility carries is very heavy and hard to accomplish in current meta with its mapstate distribution. Of course every player showing up on the map also shares little bit of responsibility to provide people around them good time, in their own unique way that complements their personality, and guidance as well, but most people don't understand that as they didn't publicly announce that they are doing so. So people are split doing blobbing or solo roaming, nothing relevant inbetween, outside that theres only socializing and guilds farming pugs with 0 losses on their side.

    Riformed - Back but playing casually
    Diamond Legend
    ~Fix WvW plz~

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    Current system is terrible and supports turtle gameplay.. The game was actually better when the keeps were paper.

    True, but it doesnt have so much to do with the speed of upgrades.

    Overall the solution just boils down to one incredibly basic thing that most people probably overlook or forget exist:

    Siege that still hasnt been buffed in the big siege buff that Anet had to do years ago because WvW was fast grinding to a screeching halt with the objective buffs.

    Make the true siege engines, the trebs half supply cost with 50%+ more base damage and watch the turtle gameplay melt away with true sieges, fireballs flying high above and defenders forced to sally forth out of objectives.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Luthan.5236Luthan.5236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't know. Sure ... certain objectives can get Dolyaks from more locations - which makes them easier to upgrade. (Then again you'd need to cap and defend those camps first.)

    SM gives more points ... should be harder to ugrade ... but then again: It is flipped pretty often (as long as the matches aren't totally unbalanced) cause usually both other teams attack the defending team there. (Draining supplies pretty fast.)

    I'd rather have more diversity with the "tactics". There is only a "minor" supply drop. (Why not a major one for the higher level tactic slots?)
    And for attackers maybe attacking tactics. Some spots where they can activate them. (With CD of course.)

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    Yeah, lets make this thing take hours of work even though all the effort can be erased in 5-10 minutes by a random blob.

  • @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Yeah, lets make this thing take hours of work even though all the effort can be erased in 5-10 minutes by a random blob.

    As if upgrading structures requires "work and effort" ...

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Yeah, lets make this thing take hours of work even though all the effort can be erased in 5-10 minutes by a random blob.

    As if upgrading structures requires "work and effort" ...

    Yeah, it must be those npc guards defending the camps so well that gets thing upgraded.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    Current system is terrible and supports turtle gameplay.. The game was actually better when the keeps were paper.

    True, but it doesnt have so much to do with the speed of upgrades.

    Overall the solution just boils down to one incredibly basic thing that most people probably overlook or forget exist:

    Siege that still hasnt been buffed in the big siege buff that Anet had to do years ago because WvW was fast grinding to a screeching halt with the objective buffs.

    Make the true siege engines, the trebs half supply cost with 50%+ more base damage and watch the turtle gameplay melt away with true sieges, fireballs flying high above and defenders forced to sally forth out of objectives.

    The problem already with this is, that defenders also build trebs.
    Defenders and attackers both have trebs with shield generatos and we are in a stalemate.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lets stop beating around the bush after 8 years, just turn every structure into a camp and be done with it, cause obviously some people don't enjoy a challenge and just want to roll over everything.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs. - Thieves
    /Stomps Mirage-Scourge-Warclaw, boon ball balance! - Anet
    No expansion money as long as Mesmers are trash. - Me

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭

    This is what happened when someone blatantly suggest and whine about something that is not a problem , it will create even more problem if you need so many yaks to upgrade , people will start to make post and whine about why need so many yaks to upgrade.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited 5:15AM

    @Nitrosiili.5628 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @hunkamania.7561 said:
    Current system is terrible and supports turtle gameplay.. The game was actually better when the keeps were paper.

    True, but it doesnt have so much to do with the speed of upgrades.

    Overall the solution just boils down to one incredibly basic thing that most people probably overlook or forget exist:

    Siege that still hasnt been buffed in the big siege buff that Anet had to do years ago because WvW was fast grinding to a screeching halt with the objective buffs.

    Make the true siege engines, the trebs half supply cost with 50%+ more base damage and watch the turtle gameplay melt away with true sieges, fireballs flying high above and defenders forced to sally forth out of objectives.

    The problem already with this is, that defenders also build trebs.
    Defenders and attackers both have trebs with shield generatos and we are in a stalemate.

    Its rarely a stalemate - whoever keeps taking the initiative and is stubborn enough to keep pressure have the advantage. Attackers could easily build a treb and clear some siege before defenders react. If defenders build countersiege on the spot... well then the attacker manouver somewhere else. Because the point of a siege is to drain the objective, mission accomplished.

    Hell with trebs at a decent cost it might even be worth setting them up to literally drain supps by shooting the supply depots before the frontal assault.

    Once you get in... thats where it can be a stalemate because a borderzerg is defending.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    Players scoff at killing dollies as something they dont have to do because someone else does it (right after they tell roamers to gtfo off the border so the zerg can scrim), not Anet.

    Adding onto this point :
    There's also always that one goon commander which thinks roamers/small groups are to blame when their precious T3 tower gets steamrolled while they go for SMC over and over again.

    "Omg pubs are useless"

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.