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Add an Interval for Soulcleave Summit.

Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

Posting it here because the Revenant section barely gets any attention.

It's clear that Renegade has been getting more attention, particularly with the Bunker build which is hard to tell what really is OP if at all.

From what I could gather in many fights and myself playing it, the lack of a cooldown per hit on the elite really makes it strong given how there's a lot of other mitigating factors within the profession already and Renegade has a lot of multi-hits.

Even the slightest addition to throttle the siphon/healing could balance it out due to how teamfights can go and you have things like holo nades which already hurts, for every single nade it only gets worst.

Think of all the other skills that can do so, it's really busted at times.

The nerf to the damage/healing was pretty pointless when the flow is basically the same, this AoE has to be one of the most broken in the game because there's no interval for each hit.

Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

Comments

  • Liewec.2896Liewec.2896 Member ✭✭✭

    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

    i dont think that you can have the same effect twice. honestly.. while the ulti is indeed strong.. nerfing it or adding interval will destroy renegade.. make a class trash isnt balancing it..
    renegade is indeed strong ... but it does have drawbacks and its not a crazy high damaging class as it is.. and most of the damage it does have comes from that elite skill with auto attack spaming.. i think nerfing the ret trait that regen hp per upkep you have will do more than enough to bring Renegade back in line.. because the only real issue with renegade its his sustain.. if someone just die to the legends then he dont know how to play..

  • You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect.

    For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)...

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect.

    For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)...

    these summon also die very fast .. DH traps/reaper kill these summon so fast.. i think renegade is strong indeed for its little effort needed but its not so strong that ruin balance.. it can only burst dps in 1v1 its being easily countered by summon classes .. like necro minions or even ranger.. because the damage of the legend split.. not only the legend split it also alternate target so it doesnt even burst anymore because it give you window between attacks to sustain and regen.. .. i think there are far bigger problems to balance than renegade atm.. holo/thief / core condi necro.. and even burn guaridan .. and druid with his immoblize.. renegade is fine as it is !

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd lower the energy drain from -8 to -6 if an internal cooldown is added. Even then it would be quite a huge nerf.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect.

    For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)...

    or you can make it 0,25s like necro drain is, so that you can proc it quickly, but hits that boom you several times at the same time ( nades ) dont screw you over instantly.
    while still remaining mostly intact, for even fast abilities like rapid fire.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Eww, so Razorclaw's Rage except with massive energy drain? No thanks.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

    i dont think that you can have the same effect twice. honestly.. while the ulti is indeed strong.. nerfing it or adding interval will destroy renegade.. make a class trash isnt balancing it..
    renegade is indeed strong ... but it does have drawbacks and its not a crazy high damaging class as it is.. and most of the damage it does have comes from that elite skill with auto attack spaming.. i think nerfing the ret trait that regen hp per upkep you have will do more than enough to bring Renegade back in line.. because the only real issue with renegade its his sustain.. if someone just die to the legends then he dont know how to play..

    Stop suggesting non sensical nerfs to core traits for an elite spec. You don't have crazy high damage because you're traiting to be a bunker, with actual damage it's entirely different you'd know from playing it. Shortbow alone can delete any medium health professions in 2 seconds without the siphon, it's easy to prove with evidence that at it's peak performance the class deals a lot of damage even on Celestial because of Brutal Momentum as well.

    Shiro Impossible Odds for the longest time had the same upkeep drain in pvp with nothing to remedy itself with the removal of superspeed, quickness and the additional damage turning into secondary hits that have smallest intervals. It's still good.

    You don't seem understand what it means to have a skill like this with no cooldown and many skills outside the profession have broken results, pairing two of the same builds have also broken results that would be easily alleviated by adding a limit like everything else has in the game.

    @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect.

    For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)...

    Use your class properly and drop a road to support your summons for what in the span of simply 2 seconds which you'll have already healed for 2k + by just scuffing skills on someone and can do from twice the range because shortbow.

    With 75% energy on swap you have way more than you need to sustain in case someone CC you, unless you're that type of player who uses Daring offensively to which in that regards it's no wonder you think it's weak to CC but that doesn't put aside the fact Soulcleave Summit without an interval to damage is too much.

    Let's not forget also the ability to have 105% condition damage reduction during 10 seconds for absolute condi spam immunity, can even add CC immunity in the mix with another road and if you care to hit people with it, that's even more sustain because of Weakness on hit.

    If I had to say, Renegade was never weak, was always strong while you had easier stuff like Tetherbreaker and Holosmith overshadowing it. People never bothered to play it for the longest time because shortbow skills sucked in a PvP environment. That didn't bother me at all considering all the builds I had made for myself at the time, the most interesting being with Diviner amulet when it was still around.

    @Clownmug.8357 said:
    Eww, so Razorclaw's Rage except with massive energy drain? No thanks.

    0.25 is not close to it and you are not limited on targets/strikes. So no, they're not comparable.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:
    You can add interval of 1 second but then healing and dmg have to be 4x buffed :) like what you think about this post....you can cc that and deny any life siphon to happen and guess what you can hide behind terrain or block.....what can that poor renegade do? Just get locked to stay under radius of that summon to get its effect.

    For class that is very counterable and very limited you shouldn't complain about anymore..... go make a post about engy grenades 1,1,1,1,1, spam and necro lich form 1,1,1,1 spam too(more you spam better)...

    or you can make it 0,25s like necro drain is, so that you can proc it quickly, but hits that boom you several times at the same time ( nades ) dont screw you over instantly.
    while still remaining mostly intact, for even fast abilities like rapid fire.

    At 0.25 multi-hits are about half as effective which is already a great change for something so easy to play.

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I'd lower the energy drain from -8 to -6 if an internal cooldown is added. Even then it would be quite a huge nerf.

    I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor.

    0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions.

    Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono.

    They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • As long as it's a sPvP only thing. I don't want to see this added in PvE.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    As long as it's a sPvP only thing. I don't want to see this added in PvE.

    Ofc. Hence why it was ideally posted in this section. Don't care for WvW since everything is broken from the start over there.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 22, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

    I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor.

    0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions.

    Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono.

    They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.les

    Impossible odds doesn't have the same drawbacks soulcleave does.

    You do not have to support a summon with jallis road to prevent random CC's from removing its effects.
    You don't have to stand within a radius to gain benefits from impossible odds
    Impossible odds has no wind-up, meaning you can toggle it on/off when you need it most, significantly reducing the drain on energy. Soulceave takes a good second to wind up, and it's draining energy the entire time it does so.
    Soulcleave does not grant a movement speed increase, meaning it doesn't have the versatility of impossible odds for chasing/kiting purposes.

    Soulcleave's advantages over imposible odds are the siphon and the lack of internal cooldown. Nerfing the internal cooldown indirectly nerfs the siphon as well.

    If you're going to nerf soulcleave into what is functionally weaker imposible odds, it should have the energy drain of a weaker impossible odds. `

  • @Shao.7236 said:

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    As long as it's a sPvP only thing. I don't want to see this added in PvE.

    Ofc. Hence why it was ideally posted in this section. Don't care for WvW since everything is broken from the start over there.

    Knowing Anet they would make it a universal thing since it's a mechanical aspect of the skill. Renegade in WvW is just lol

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    heir dps.

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @noiwk.2760 said:

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

    I disagree, look at Impossible Odds change and try to keep a straight face would suggesting it again, I can't. It would be really comical from Anet to favor those changes but keep the other the same which already has worst effects to be even more out of favor.

    0.25 would put brakes on an otherwise broken effect when there's none to make sure that it's not awfully bloated for every multi-hits that take place on any professions.

    Steadfast Rejuvenation and Charged Mists flow would also change because of that, which makes it a bigger nono.

    They could bring back the old damage and healing at best, but I doubt since everything needed to be touched by the blanket idea.les

    Impossible odds doesn't have the same drawbacks soulcleave does.

    You do not have to support a summon with jallis road to prevent random CC's from removing its effects.
    You don't have to stand within a radius to gain benefits from impossible odds
    Impossible odds has no wind-up, meaning you can toggle it on/off when you need it most, significantly reducing the drain on energy. Soulceave takes a good second to wind up, and it's draining energy the entire time it does so.
    Soulcleave does not grant a movement speed increase, meaning it doesn't have the versatility of impossible odds for chasing/kiting purposes.

    Soulcleave's advantages over imposible odds are the siphon and the lack of internal cooldown. Nerfing the internal cooldown indirectly nerfs the siphon as well.

    If you're going to nerf soulcleave into what is functionally weaker imposible odds, it should have the energy drain of a weaker impossible odds. `

    But it wouldn't be weaker. It's also an AoE that can be shared over the team, not exclusive to the user. Just saying the movement speed boost is meaningless, it serves no purpose. I have never seen anyone use it in regards to it's speed since Superspeed was removed, neither myself and for a good reason, it's not comparably close to anything next to it for making a difference that puts energy to good use. If it was comparable to Rune of Speed, that would be more reasonable of a mention and if it is I would have noticed because I can't never catch up to people using Speed in the first place, could be a bug but for now. Not useful at all.

    This is more like making it even to the other skills rather than a nerf. It'll still be good without carrying the user so much when their arsernal of sustain is massive and to be played better.

    If I can tank loads of damage as a berserker Core Shiro/Jalis without any form of healing but the included skills, people can do the same when they trait for everything to Bunker Renegade.

    Let's change things right so Renegade or Core doesn't get hammered by anymore complains that aren't sensical from people that don't know Revenant enough.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Ovark.2514Ovark.2514 Member ✭✭✭

    Can Renegade just be reworked altogether? Please.

  • i think messing with duration and cd first is more prudent.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining.

    It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests.

    What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    i think messing with duration and cd first is more prudent.

    I considered that, which is smart to suggest really. However given how Revenant works, it's hard to recommend as an Upkeep skill and little effect it'll have in general when swapping legends back and forth.

    Should as an upkeep the skill be a commitment of the same level the others have in the legend? I can see that work while keeping the effect of said skill in check to prevent too much cheese, losing the liberty as is right now brings a lot of mixed feelings for the rev in me.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining.

    It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests.

    What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well.

    Well, outside of that. Renegade to me feels great as an objective denial oriented legend if using said skills.

    Only the elite has that weird exception which forgives a lot of mistakes users can do, like having good consistent decision making doesn't matter at all because the healing/damage has no brakes whatsoever.

    Being in a bad spot as Renegade can already be turned around quite easily even without the elite, that's why to /me/ it feels way too good having no interval and doing the actual /math/ with how volatile that skill can be in combination of everything else. There's gotta be some throttling done somewhere to make it fair amongst other things at least in PvP.

    Changing the stats is a bigger nerf than having this ICD since more will be required for less at a time too.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I get where you're coming from but no amount of nerfs are going to prevent the forums from complaining.

    It didn't stop them from complaining about one-dodge mirage having too many evades when they started running signet of illusions.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about ele when they managed to scrounge together one viable dps build amidst all the nerfs.
    It didn't stop them from complaining about scrapper, because dwayna forbid it be allowed to be meta anywhere that isn't WvW zerg snoozefests.

    What renegade needs, if anything, is a visual effects rework. Spirits need to more clearly communicate what they're doing so players can more easily play around them. It's clear from the amount of times I've heard people say "Renegade spams too many AoE spirits on node" that their current design does not communicate their individual functions well.

    Well, outside of that. Renegade to me feels great as an objective denial oriented legend if using said skills.

    Only the elite has that weird exception which forgives a lot of mistakes users can do, like having good consistent decision making doesn't matter at all because the healing/damage has no brakes whatsoever.

    Being in a bad spot as Renegade can already be turned around quite easily even without the elite, that's why to /me/ it feels way too good having no interval and doing the actual /math/ with how volatile that skill can be in combination of everything else. There's gotta be some throttling done somewhere to make it fair amongst other things at least in PvP.

    Changing the stats is a bigger nerf than having this ICD since more will be required for less at a time too.

    Soulcleave is a powerful effect, yes. I don't think that is an inherently bad thing.

    I believe the issue with Soulcleave lies is not in it's stregnth, but how much of that stregnth fails to communicate itself to the opponent. It looks far too similar to darkrazer and their heal skill from a glance. If the renegade has other spirits out (and they most likely will) it can be difficult to spot Soulcleave amidst all the visual noise.

    Looking at soulcleave alone, it has the proper trade-offs to compensate for such a powerful effect. You have to cast the skill, you have to wait for the summon to finish a brief cast time, then you have a window where you're hemorrhaging energy and you need to land your burst while empowered by its effects, and it must be done while standing within the AoE (meaning you cannot effectively chase with it). Succeeding at all four will reward you with some nice damage and a large heal.

    Its party support functionality is throttled by the hefty energy cost. You cannot afford to perma-upkeep soulcleave in a teamfight while also using other spirits or weapon skills or you will run out of energy very quickly, even with charged mists.

    What Soulcleave needs is for opponents to be able to immediately recognize at a glace that it's up and life siphoning is either happening or about to happen.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    i honestly dont think renegade is that op to need a massive nerfing... the class is really good yes.. but it has so many clear drawbacks !
    his entire dps is limited to within a visable era that you can step away from ..
    the class has close to 0 cc.. (short bow 5) class is limited by energy !
    the class has 0 mobility skills ! the class got only 1 stun break in each legend ! and both of them have cast time?? that means both of them can be intrupted..
    both of them also have a massive energy cost and are not easy to cast .
    the legend that attack .. and does damage.. unlike other aoe skills in game while being aoe it really is like a single target skill.. the more enemies inside the era the damage split between them... not only that it altrnate target meaning it give you time inside to resustain your self..
    the class has medicore dps and it doesnt have good bburst
    legends can be cc'ed... if someone gonna claim that they cant because you can use dwarf for road stability.. this is just ideal case that barelyt ever happens
    and due to cast time they will only get about 1 stack of stability if you save your stability for moment before you swap legends
    1 stack of stability can easily be removed.. aoe fear will make the legends walk away and then renegade is free food.
    stuning them prevent his sustain... not to mention bursty classes like reaper.. can just kill the legends with shroud 5 stun > shroud 4 spin
    and both renegade and legends are dead.

    yes renegade is good ! because it can tank and sustain its self.. and it can support his team. but to die fast for renegade you have to be bad..
    because renegade "burst" is easy to avoid because neither of the legends alone can burst you down.. and when he cast one just walk away from that era..

  • ollbirtan.2915ollbirtan.2915 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Or you could, you know, adapt / learn to play that class to see how easily it can be countered instead of whining for nerfs? Sorry, if my expectations are too high.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Or you could, you know, adapt / learn to play that class to see how easily it can be countered instead of whining for nerfs? Sorry, if my expectations are too high.

    Telling that to one of the only few core revenant that exists in the game and have success at high levels.

    Not here to flex but to tell you that I main this class and I am free to judge if something is stupid with evidence. You take everything as whining when I am here to criticize the lack of judgement for balancing the skill properly which leads to outcries and random nerfs that can affect my favorite part of the class indirectly.

    I've called for nerfs on Shortbow Sevenshot because it was overpowered and most if not all Revs I knew disagree'd. Why? Is it that hard to admit some skills carries and need to be adjusted? They nerfed it properly and it's still good in either of the 3 ways it's used.

    Way before that I asked for Call to Anguish nerfs which made all the difference and then they decided to screw over the corruption lines because everyone would rely on super cheese with all resistance traits even though I said they should prevent Fiendish Tenacity from giving Resistance at all on legend swap, leaving the other traits alone as the best benefit be mere healing for resistance that wouldn't be bloated by the main mechanic of the class and rather remain practical with Demonic Defiance and Spirit Boon instead. Now it's pointless to have.

    If they actually cared, they'd get EM baseline resistance so people wouldn't be forced to trait DD either. This is sad.

    Anyways, nah. I know how to play Renegade, I played it way before it existed on the meta sites and it would be pretty okay even when everything was overtuned which goes to show if it could hold it's own before, today it can only be too good. Which IMO with numbers is, extremely bloated, annoying to deal with, too forgiving to play with.

    Whether we can beat it or not doesn't stop the fact that this one particular skill has too much going for it (At least PvP) and people should learn and adapt to not rely on such easy mechanics to win at the game.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @ollbirtan.2915 said:
    Or you could, you know, adapt / learn to play that class to see how easily it can be countered instead of whining for nerfs? Sorry, if my expectations are too high.

    Telling that to one of the only few core revenant that exists in the game and have success at high levels.

    Not here to flex but to tell you that I main this class and I am free to judge if something is stupid with evidence. You take everything as whining when I am here to criticize the lack of judgement for balancing the skill properly which leads to outcries and random nerfs that can affect my favorite part of the class indirectly.

    I've called for nerfs on Shortbow Sevenshot because it was overpowered and most if not all Revs I knew disagree'd. Why? Is it that hard to admit some skills carries and need to be adjusted? They nerfed it properly and it's still good in either of the 3 ways it's used.

    Way before that I asked for Call to Anguish nerfs which made all the difference and then they decided to screw over the corruption lines because everyone would rely on super cheese with all resistance traits even though I said they should prevent Fiendish Tenacity from giving Resistance at all on legend swap, leaving the other traits alone as the best benefit be mere healing for resistance that wouldn't be bloated by the main mechanic of the class and rather remain practical with Demonic Defiance and Spirit Boon instead. Now it's pointless to have.

    If they actually cared, they'd get EM baseline resistance so people wouldn't be forced to trait DD either. This is sad.

    Anyways, nah. I know how to play Renegade, I played it way before it existed on the meta sites and it would be pretty okay even when everything was overtuned which goes to show if it could hold it's own before, today it can only be too good. Which IMO with numbers is, extremely bloated, annoying to deal with, too forgiving to play with.

    Whether we can beat it or not doesn't stop the fact that this one particular skill has too much going for it (At least PvP) and people should learn and adapt to not rely on such easy mechanics to win at the game.

    sorry i can agree on everytthing you say that its not whining and you ahve a place to put your thoughts.. but i simply dont think renegade is that op.. its good class and if you dont know how to play against it.. then yes it can seem broken.. on the other hand. the class can be countered with many options..
    especially in today meta.. . where DH can throw traps at your summons and they are dead..
    and cced many times..
    renegade is just fine as it is.. and honestly.. short bow? you can delete all short bow skills and leave just the auto attack and it will be ok..
    as most of the time you will just be spaming auto attack ^^ so nerfing seven shoot was it really good call? i wonder.. maybe buffing it and increasing its energy cost quite abit would be better idea.. so that it wont be spammed but used as burst sometimes.. anyways all in all renegade is fine,, and there are worse troubles to deal with .. deredevil and shadow art .. ? holo? scrapper? heal warrior ? tempest ? core necro?

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2020

    Honestly, I'd rework the spirits all together and fix what's really obnoxious about them.

    I'd turn darkrazer into a targeted skill. It will do a brief windup (that opponents can clearly see and react to) daze one target within range, then bounce to another if it is also within range, also giving it the ability to bounce back and forth but prioritizing new targets if possible. Essentially working a bit like engi's Pistol 3, but much slower. In order to make it worth casting in 1v1's the initial daze will be 1 second and subsequent dazes will only be 1/4 seconds.

    With this change, darkrazer will only daze you repeatedly if you stack together with allies. In a 1v1 it will only daze once.

    Icerazer will be a targeted spirit that throws a shuriken at its target. If it hits, it shadowsteps to the target and does a death-lotus like animation, unloading ice shurikens at the initial target and all enemies around it.

    Soulcleave - Add an animation of the orange circle forming as they perform the intial channel so you know "life siphoning is about to happen"!

    Breakrazer - Circle color changed to Green. Green in video games typically = healing of some kind, so that should help you read the skill at a glance.

    As for the bleed... I'll have to think a bit on that one.

    All but the heal and soulcleave will have the obnoxious circles removed. Now each spirit has clear counterplay.

    Darkrazer - don't stack together and it stops bouncing

    Icerazer - dodge or LoS the initial projectile and it won't shadowstep

    Soulcleave - A bit orange circle on the ground! walk away for a bit or be ready to avoid their follow-up burst

    Breakrazer - It's their heal, you can CC it to limit the value they get.

    Mind you, this would take actual effort on the part of the devs, but it would help to "future proof" Renegade, making it less obnoxious to fight, if power ends up creeping low enough that it becomes meta again after being nerfed.

  • @Shao.7236 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    i think messing with duration and cd first is more prudent.

    I considered that, which is smart to suggest really. However given how Revenant works, it's hard to recommend as an Upkeep skill and little effect it'll have in general when swapping legends back and forth.

    Should as an upkeep the skill be a commitment of the same level the others have in the legend? I can see that work while keeping the effect of said skill in check to prevent too much cheese, losing the liberty as is right now brings a lot of mixed feelings for the rev in me.

    it would be weird to have a duration on an upkeep skill. so yeah idk something is definitely off about the skill, i think an interval would work well but not necessarily fix it. maybe bump up the cd first since its a ridiculous 3 sec. nah i agree i think an interval would be best.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Mogwai.4015Mogwai.4015 Member ✭✭✭

    I think a 0.25s interval would be okay. Would you think this being per target or a shared ICD would be better? Renegade was designed specifically around multi-hit effects and being able to capitalize on this via Soulcleave's Summit, but honestly I think it is taken to unhealthy levels with how many multi-hits you can get going. I don't think it would break the skill by any means. As long as the interval gets put at 0s in PvE.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Liewec.2896 said:
    if 2 revs both use it, do you get the effect twice?
    i'm wondering how OP a multi-rev comp could get :)

    cant have the liferrip buff twice

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    honestly interval will destroy the class.. no one will ever play it in competetive..