Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Second "dodge" that just cleanses conditions


Swagg.9236

Recommended Posts

Basically, a universal action that all classes have which could also remove X (3-5?) conditions. It could also consume endurance if you wanted. Point is, if every class had access to what would effectively be limited, on-demand condition removal, PvP encounters wouldn't automatically force players to sink opportunity cost on active condition cleanses (which almost always are EXTREMELY boring skills to use) or focus 33-66% of their passives on counteracting other people's passive actions that litter the field with things like immobilize or burning.

If you're fighting a condition build (a scenario that sort of lands in the hands of RNG), that means that you are going to need condition removal, as avoiding hits in a point-centric team-fight is effectively impossible beyond a certain point of protracted time. However, pigeonholing players into taking a whole bunch of instant or passive effects just to survive such an encounter is not a way to elevate the skill ceiling. You're forcing players to lose opportunity cost advantage for their own ideas or creativity just because someone on the field decided to play a certain way. There's no way to efficiently punish a condition build for just churning through its rotation because, if you're able to counter one, then you've already sacrificed something (damage, more HP, more boons) in your build just to have that arbitrary and asymmetrical counterweight. At the end of the day, condition builds effectively play the same way as power builds: both either post up at range or go charging in while negating the outgoing effects of opponents and simultaneously attacking. Therefore, if players didn't always have to consistently cripple their own builds in a way just to take into account the assumed presence of a condition builds, then condition builds would be on a more even field with direct damage.

After all, pressing a keyboard button to instantly paper someone else's rock isn't a hallmark of finesse or intelligence; so there is no reason that the opportunity to press such a button should be locked behind arbitrary time-gates and opportunity costs because it is distributed to players on a completely random, entirely flavor-based, class-by-class basis. If you give players the power of universal counterplay, the only thing that it would mean would be that people might actually have to consider the consequences of a particular instead of, at worst, breaking even every time. Who's going to argue against a wider distribution of condition cleanses? People who think that that one single ranged attack deserves to tick that one, random peeling guy for 25% HP? Burn guardians? Trap rangers? Pistol thieves? Invuln-chain mesmers? Weavers that basically just do a PvE rotation on a point while a passively pulsing PBAoE does the work of a tempest overload except without the channeled cast? Does a game really lose anything by giving players a universal means of mitigating conditions when said game is saturated with random condition application (even in the case of power builds)?

tl;dr: Asymmetrical condition removal was an utterly asinine design choice. Everyone should have a condition removal ability just as everyone has a dodge (they could even both consume endurance if you want). Obviously, a tourniquet fix like this would have to come with adjustments and culling to the way that condition removal is arbitrarily scattered across all classes with no real holistic thought process behind it, but ideally, anyone reading this could just use their imagination to assume the necessary adjustments needed (it's basically just a simple numbers game anyway). Thought exercises are fun, I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagg.9236 said:Basically, a universal action that all classes have which could also remove X (3-5?) conditions. It could also consume endurance if you wanted. Point is, if every class had access to what would effectively be limited, on-demand condition removal, PvP encounters wouldn't automatically force players to sink opportunity cost on active condition cleanses (which almost always are EXTREMELY boring skills to use) or focus 33-66% of their passives on counteracting other people's passive actions that litter the field with things like immobilize or burning.

If you're fighting a condition build (a scenario that sort of lands in the hands of RNG), that means that you are going to need condition removal, as avoiding hits in a point-centric team-fight is effectively impossible beyond a certain point of protracted time. However, pigeonholing players into taking a whole bunch of instant or passive effects just to survive such an encounter is not a way to elevate the skill ceiling. You're forcing players to lose opportunity cost advantage for their own ideas or creativity just because someone on the field decided to play a certain way. There's no way to efficiently punish a condition build for just churning through its rotation because, if you're able to counter one, then you've already sacrificed something (damage, more HP, more boons) in your build just to have that arbitrary and asymmetrical counterweight. At the end of the day, condition builds effectively play the same way as power builds: both either post up at range or go charging in while negating the outgoing effects of opponents and simultaneously attacking. Therefore, if players didn't always have to consistently cripple their own builds in a way just to take into account the assumed presence of a condition builds, then condition builds would be on a more even field with direct damage.

After all, pressing a keyboard button to instantly paper someone else's rock isn't a hallmark of finesse or intelligence; so there is no reason that the opportunity to press such a button should be locked behind arbitrary time-gates and opportunity costs because it is distributed to players on a completely random, entirely flavor-based, class-by-class basis. If you give players the power of universal counterplay, the only thing that it would mean would be that people might actually have to consider the consequences of a particular instead of, at worst, breaking even every time. Who's going to argue against a wider distribution of condition cleanses? People who think that that one single ranged attack deserves to tick that one, random peeling guy for 25% HP? Burn guardians? Trap rangers? Pistol thieves? Invuln-chain mesmers? Weavers that basically just do a PvE rotation on a point while a passively pulsing PBAoE does the work of a tempest overload except without the channeled cast? Does a game really lose anything by giving players a universal means of mitigating conditions when said game is saturated with random condition application (even in the case of power builds)?

tl;dr: Asymmetrical condition removal was an utterly asinine design choice. Everyone should have a condition removal ability just as everyone has a dodge (they could even both consume endurance if you want). Obviously, a tourniquet fix like this would have to come with adjustments and culling to the way that condition removal is arbitrarily scattered across all classes with no real holistic thought process behind it, but ideally, anyone reading this could just use their imagination to assume the necessary adjustments needed (it's basically just a simple numbers game anyway). Thought exercises are fun, I guess.

fun fact, condition cleans is good against both condition builds and power builds, crazy right? you dont make much sacrifices for it since you are going to need cleanse against power builds anyways, if power reaper applies 5s of chill you need to cleans this shit, if power rev immobs you have to cleanse it, same with fear, high stacks of vulnerability, slow and blind in crutial moments. Heck even 20 might power holo forces you to cleanse if you eat poison nades.Bottom line is, cleanse gives you survivability, against both power and condi, IF you use it properly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagg.9236 said:After all, pressing a keyboard button to instantly paper someone else's rock isn't a hallmark of finesse or intelligence; so there is no reason that the opportunity to press such a button should be locked behind arbitrary time-gates and opportunity costs

This doesn't make any sense. Opportunity cost is exactly what allows skillful play to emerge.

Being able to secure kills without needing to load up your utility-bar/traits with all quickness, insta-cast damage, damage modifiers etc, is a sign of skill.

Or, alternatively, being able to stay alive with no cleanses, and in compensation being able to have a higher impact with your damage modifiers etc, is also a sign of skill.

Removing opportunity costs makes the curve flatter, not steeper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A simple solution would slightly buff cleansing sigil.

Condis cleansed 1 >> 2

Might at least help you get rid of a few cover condis before you burn your main cleanse.

Not saying that's what they should do. Just a simple easy to implement solution should they go that route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dantheman.3589 said:Condition builds are just cancer on the pvp community. They have reduced some condis but still no one wants them, but again I’ll admit some condi builds aren’t too bad, still on average they are fairly bad.

Sure. like literally no one wants them, that's why there are condi builds being played in ranked. Please, do us a favour, and speak for yourself.

Extra fun fact - we are in the power meta now. Not condi.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@megilandil.7506 said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:After all, pressing a keyboard button to instantly paper someone else's rock isn't a hallmark of finesse or intelligence; so there is no reason that the opportunity to press such a button should be locked behind arbitrary time-gates and opportunity costs

This doesn't make any sense. Opportunity cost is exactly what allows skillful play to emerge.

Being able to secure kills without needing to load up your utility-bar/traits with all quickness, insta-cast damage, damage modifiers etc, is a sign of skill.

Or, alternatively, being able to stay alive with no cleanses, and in compensation being able to have a higher impact with your damage modifiers etc, is also a sign of skill.

Removing opportunity costs makes the curve flatter, not steeper.

Opportunity cost is what goes into generating a combat role; NOT the skill ceiling of how a role is played. By frontloading all of the "skill" in GW2 to what a player does before a match even starts, it basically removes all of the tension and expression from individual player interactions; rather boiling everything down to comp/build match-ups and watching the minimap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagg.9236 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:Or you could use sigils and stop trying to face tank condi builds when you know they'll melt your face off.

A perfect example of what I was talking about in how a player is forced to curve their build's purpose toward mitigating the assumption that someone else on the field is using certain abilities.

You do the same thing for power damage, change build choices, just you don't ever really think to much about it since power has almost always been the dominant damage type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:Or you could use sigils and stop trying to face tank condi builds when you know they'll melt your face off.

A perfect example of what I was talking about in how a player is forced to curve their build's purpose toward mitigating the assumption that someone else on the field is using certain abilities.

You do the same thing for power damage, change build choices, just you don't ever really think to much about it since power has almost always been the dominant damage type.

Power has to continuously strike a target. A lone 3-stack burn from a Guardian can DoT for 6k if it's left uncleansed. This is just a matter of having the button to clear it or not; not whether or not pressing the button is difficult. I also wouldn't mind if every build didn't have passive blocks/evades/invulnerability built into it so that people would actually have to mind where they stood at any given time instead of just queuing their attacks without thinking about it.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:can we also get free " remove power damage taken " button? like a dodge but it goes back in time to remove the kitten up you made?

Every build has that built into it now. In fact, GW2's PvP meta is so saturated that it's perfectly easy to predict exactly what everyone is going to do in combat yet it remains artificially difficult to stop anybody from doing so. It's basically like two people having a pool noodle fight: every player starts using their "best" weapon skills and just go through the motions of dealing damage to people while nobody on the field really takes that much damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Swagg.9236 as much as a lone 3stack burn from guard can dot for 6k, so can lone nade or whatever power hit for 6k, only that you dont get to cleanse.there is a reason why its never condi meta, conditions MECHANICALLY are inferior to power, always were and I suspect they always will be.Strangely enough the nade kit is condi weapon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Condition builds are just cancer on the pvp community. They have reduced some condis but still no one wants them, but again I’ll admit some condi builds aren’t too bad, still on average they are fairly bad.

Sure. like literally no one wants them, that's why there are condi builds being played in ranked. Please, do us a favour, and speak for yourself.

Extra fun fact - we are in the power meta now. Not condi.

Idk about it being a power meta. If it were a true power meta for example- I’d be doing a good job taking a toughness amulet as a side noder, but that’s not the case as I’d be hurting myself by doing that. Me taking menders is because damage is fairly mixed with some super annoying condi builds and even the power ones I’ll face are gonna put out a lot of hybrid condi damage so even against them menders is a solid choice. At least for me playing a build, which is power, specd to fight only power damage would not work 90% of the time- the other times I would probably even think of cele amulet before a toughness one just for a tiny bit extra sustain to burst builds

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagg.9236 said:Basically, a universal action that all classes have which could also remove X (3-5?) conditions. It could also consume endurance if you wanted. Point is, if every class had access to what would effectively be limited, on-demand condition removal, PvP encounters wouldn't automatically force players to sink opportunity cost on active condition cleanses (which almost always are EXTREMELY boring skills to use) or focus 33-66% of their passives on counteracting other people's passive actions that litter the field with things like immobilize or burning.What if they added a fluffy fancy animation to the cleanses? This could save them from the need to rework half of the game's skill list after they added such a mechanic you ask for.

Forcing you to make a choice whether you invest in damage avoidance (dodge, block, mobility), damage reduction (armor, protection, cleanses) or a bit of both is part of the concept of the fight mechanic.

Then it is also a class/spec design choice. A longbow ranger can get away with very few cleanses when fighting a condi scourge or condi rev. A reaper can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@megilandil.7506 said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

This is interesting. Wouldn't it be fascinating if anet removed all condi cleanse and resistance for a while (or even permanently) to see just how strong conditions actually are and to assist in balance. . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"megilandil.7506" said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

This is interesting. Wouldn't it be fascinating if anet removed all condi cleanse and resistance for a while (or even permanently) to see just how strong conditions actually are and to assist in balance. . .

and that would prove what exactly?" to see how strong conditions actually are to assist in balance "how about anet sets everyones toughness to 500, so that we all take 3x-4x damage. We would see how strong power damage really is, and to assist in balance ;p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ovark.2514 said:

@"megilandil.7506" said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

This is interesting. Wouldn't it be fascinating if anet removed all condi cleanse and resistance for a while (or even permanently) to see just how strong conditions actually are and to assist in balance. . .

and that would prove what exactly?" to see how strong conditions actually are to assist in balance "how about anet sets everyones toughness to 500, so that we all take 3x-4x damage. We would see how strong power damage really is, and to assist in balance ;p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ovark.2514 said:

@megilandil.7506 said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

This is interesting. Wouldn't it be fascinating if anet removed all condi cleanse and resistance for a while (or even permanently) to see just how strong conditions actually are and to assist in balance. . .In this scenario the cc conditions would be way more problematic than the damaging ones, because they prepare the application of any damage type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"megilandil.7506" said:know you that the condition problem (conditions being bursty instead of DoT)is caused by the exesive condi cleans availability(passive and active)?

adding more ways to clean it is going one step further in the arms race that caused this problem, the solution is return conditions to DoT and limit the amount of condi cleanses

This is interesting. Wouldn't it be fascinating if anet removed all condi cleanse and resistance for a while (or even permanently) to see just how strong conditions actually are and to assist in balance. . .

and that would prove what exactly?" to see how strong conditions actually are to assist in balance "how about anet sets everyones toughness to 500, so that we all take 3x-4x damage. We would see how strong power damage really is, and to assist in balance ;p

It would highlight which condition builds can be played against with proper dodging, kiting, blocking, etc, and which can't. A lot of the condi builds right now are essentially unbeatable unless you have cleanse or resistance since they apply very heavy-hitting and/or long duration conditions either very frequently (ex: burn guard and ranger) or in very strong bursts that are very hard to predict and evade (ex: Thief and Mirage).

It would also be interesting to remove all CC for a bit and see how the game plays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...