The Chronomancer Conundrum

Edit: I'm leaving the original message as is here but I fully realize I focued too heavily on alacrity in the writing of this and not so much on the issue I was getting at which was "perma-roles" conflicting with the role diversity and sidegrade nature of elite specs in GW2.

Chrono is meta, and for good reason. It provides alacrity, a jack-of-all-trades effectiveness buff that does what it says on the tin, lowers cooldowns and by doing so increases uptime on the vast majority of skills in the game.

Now here's the problem:

Alacrity works on everything, which means as new specs and balance changes are released, no matter how much alacrity is adjusted, it will pretty much always be a meta reserved slot. In perpetuity. Forever.

It's not as bad as the difficulty being tuned so tightly that you need chronos to clear, but the problem still persists. Chronos are poised to be a permanent fixture by offering something no other spec ever can. That means in the majority of raid comps, there's a permanent slot for one or two of a build that will become increasingly more outdated with every expansion.

On the other hand, the obvious answer of "well open up alacrity to other builds" decimates something really special about chronomancer. Its alacrity and continuum shift that pretty much define the spec. If you start spreading alacrity around, Chrono goes from an auto-pick to a potential why bother.

If the goal of elite specs is, in general, that they provide classes a general ability to fill variant roles or playstyles, Chronomancer poses a unique problem specifically in the high skill floor environment of raids, where players are generally far less likely to use random pickup comps because the content is built to actively require strong comps.

If the goal of elite specs is to spread around avaliable roles so that over time you have effective role options for the majority of classes, Chrono presents a problem here because Chrono is unlike druid, which could easily be competed against with future healing specs (possibly even firebrand with a little rework), or tanks, for which there are already many great options.

Chrono IS its own role, because that role is the unique mechanic of the spec itself rather than a fuzzier and easier to replicate and disperse thing like DPS, tank, or heal. That leaves very little wiggle room for opening up compositions and additional build diversity in raids through balance or future specs because despite not TECHNICALLY needing a chrono, the Alacrity effect is so game changing that its unlikely anyone is going to stop requiring them in their raid groups any time soon.

So how do we fix the problem of chronos being permanently effectively seen as a requirement literally forever pushing all future mesmer specs or other styles of damage, cc, or survivability buffs out the window while making sure the chronomancer spec remains viable and rewarding for players that enjoy it? Ideally we would have a game in which "support" describes the kind of role chronos play, but you'd have to pump out a whole lot of group DPS and survivability on a single character without alacrity to match what a chrono brings to the table in the format of long duration fights with enrage timers, and even then.. you'd still require a chrono or two because they'd buff whatever build that was.

This isn't a "nerf Chronos" thread, but I can't see a way around a future in which Raids are permanently "chronos plus other things" and that concerns me, as what's the point of regularly adding new specs to the game if what we gain from future specs is unusable in a practical sense, and what does that say about the future of mesmer specs if they're basically locked in to chrono as a default assumption? What does it say about room in a 10 man comp for other specs? What does it say about build diversity in a game where the entirety of endgame character progression is built around increasing build diversity?

Chrono is not alacrity. Why do people insist this is the main reason chrono sees use?

Druid is not only heals (a healing tempest outheals a druid in similar healing gear).

Chrono brings perma alacrity, group distortion, massive boon share and perma quickness on top of being able to deal with just about any mechanic thrown at him (a result of how the mesmer class is designed, relying on blocks and invuls to survive. Similar to how thiefs rely on dodge and evades) which makes him a great tank. Even if you were to break mesmer alacrity (or remove the ability for permanent alacrity from 1 class) chrono would still get taken along as tank and group support. You'd just have to put a revenant in the group.

The same goes for druid. People who think druid gets taken along for the heals understand very little of how raids work. Druids bring healing on top of massive team buffs (which are unique to the class) as well as massive flexibility as far as utility goes and crowd control pets for bar break. So no, a druid will not get repleaced by another good healer based on healing, this is quite evident when you consider that a healing tempest already outpferoms druid in pure healing. You are very uninformed in this regard, sorry to say.

@PopeUrban.2578 said:On the other hand, the obvious answer of "well open up alacrity to other builds" decimates something really special about chronomancer. Its alacrity and continuum shift that pretty much define the spec. If you start spreading alacrity around, Chrono goes from an auto-pick to a potential why bother.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Alacrity has been available to revenants starting February 22nd, 2017. The recent addition of Renegade enhanced this and now allows revenant to provide perma alacrity (at a cost). The reason you don't seee support Renegades filling mesmer spots is because while they provide better damage, they lack in all other areas of utility which chrono provides.

Right, what you're saying about druid is kind of my point in this instance (e.g. in theory firebrand has an interesting toolbox of unique buffs alongside heals, but in practice its mechanics don't seem quite competitive for that role, but hey I could be wrong here and hope I am) and, specifically, how opening up alacrity cannabalizes chrono.

The example given here (and thanks) of the renegade perma-alacrity is interesting, but has the same problem though doesn't it? Specifically, what would have to happen for people to seriously look at a chrono slot and say "hey maybe I'll take X build in stead of a chrono?" given the toolbox it provides?

Or, rather "How do we make builds good without making them so good that they end up being perma-picks forever without any other competitive option?"

Druid/Chrono/PS is sort of the GW2 holy trinity or "raid with this", and despite an entire second run of elite specs that doesn't seem to be changing, and that's what concerns me. A game where the long term is all about more build options confronted with a balance paradigm in which nobody wants to use those build options for nearly half of a raid.

And mind you this isn't about "make something else better" or "make chrono worse" or "every mes spec should be able to fill a chrono slot" but thinking long term here, without homogenizing classes to do the literal same things, how do we translate an ever growing selection of diverse build options to an ever-growing selection of diverse raid role picks?

Rev already has alacrity, its already been opened up to other specs. And its rather insulting that mesmers need to take an elite spec to gain access while revs have access in core traitlines, considering it was supposed to be chronomancer unique (I don't agree with keeping it chronomancer unique, but core mesmer should get some access, and chronomancers access should be slightly nerfed).

This has been my fear ever since the quickness/alacrity Chrono came to be because so much utility is squeezed into it. Mesmer players are almost doomed to this role forever, which is sad. Perhaps a healing spec with equivalent special effects as Druid could give us so room for maneuver (I don't predict a mesmer ever being top DPS spec, nor should it be tbh).

You are incorrect in the emphasis you place on alacrity. Before the soi nerf, mirror comp was lower group dps than 4-4-2, the extra alacrity of the second chrono was weaker than the buffs due to a rev. The problem (if you view it as one) is real, but not for the reason you seem to fixate on.

Personally I am a fan of the current set up. It provides a base to build on, but it also leaves flexibility. 6 Slots are locked in, while the remaining 4 are pretty much open for anything. This makes organizing a pug group easier. It also provides an easy route for new players to begin raiding. Most players find making their first set of ascended difficult and time consuming. Imagine a new player asks on these forums what class they should gear up for raids. Knowing that the process could take them a month or more, we want to give them a safe answer. Chrono, ps, druid are those safe answers. While the dps slots are volatile, and subject to a, 'flavor of the month' situation, the steady predictability of the core 6 provide a means into raiding that is easier for new players. Just look at scourge, a week ago we might have told new players gearing a scourge was a good idea, and now its a meme.

I would say breaking the symmetry could be interesting. For example, 2 cps being weaker than 1 cps (running double banner) + some other might stacking class with a unique buff. But it also has certain down sides. The more diverse the meta comp is, the more time you spend waiting for a slot to fill as the population gets split. If you were to make this new change today, consider how it would affect an lfg looking to fill the non-ps might stacker slot. Your lfg would be advertising to a much smaller population than the population of players who have a cps build ready to raid. Right now, any player who makes a cps is giving themselves the chance to compete for 2 slots in a raid, same for druid, roughly true for chrono as well (although tank vs non-tank can break the symmetry). Anyone who makes a dps character is competing for 4 slots. A meta which calls for exactly 1 of a specific build/class could be troublesome, it really depends on some of the quantitative details.

Of course, you could argue that this problem is circumvented by making every class equally good at filling every role. But, really it isn't solved. Tailoring a class to fill a specific role requires a specific set of armor/weapons/runes. At that point, the barrier to entry is pretty comparable to that of just gearing another character/class. As long as there are roles in raids, wait times will be increased as the players who can fill those roles is always less than 100%.

I debated whether or not I should even make this post. I raid with a static, and full clear in about 2-3 hours every week. All of us have many sets of ascended, so we could all adapt to just about anything being meta. None of these concerns truly affect me, so maybe it isn't my place to comment on them. However, considering every week we get a, 'raid accessibility' thread, I think this issue should be brought to light, so that those players can consider it.

I don't even think its an issue of accessibility really. Accessibility is its own thing and TBH GW2 raiding is the most accessible raiding I've ever seen. Gearing to competency is pretty darn quick and painless. Maximizing stats with a full set of infusions is the most expensive part and generally doesn't make so much of an impact that people even care all that much. I don't even have a problem that there's a "meta" as there will ALWAYS be a meta due to player patterns favoring copying a proven working comp rather than risking failing a bunch of "maybe" comps as large groups.

And in any other game I wouldn't even care. The long term progression in most games that include raids is stat ramping or some form of level increases so generally the point of the endgame progression there is to pile more cool stuff on top of the stuff you already have. New expansion comes out, get some levels, get a new talent or skill without losing your existing and comfortable roles and balance.

My issue is that GW2's progression isn't structured that way. GW2's entire progression endgame is about build diversity rather than build enhancement, and that's where I find the problem of permanent static raid slots, or a perma-best for any role. It doesn't seem like such a big deal now, but fast forward two more expansions. Do we really want to be living in a world where over half the raid comp's only logical option is the same unchanging builds from HoT? Build that haven't had anything new added to them as they would have in gear progression and raising level cap systems?

Elite specs are supposed to sort of replace that idea of usable progression in GW2 for existing characters. If you're still playing the exact same chrono, or druid build after a 4th expansion because you like it, then that design is working as intended. Specs are supposed to be sidgrades. If you're still playing that build because there are no competitive options, either on your class or another class so you can swap roles, it sort of makes the entire elite spec system pointless.

That's my problem. Monolith raid comps in to perpetuity is the best possible system in games where those specs actually grow over time. Monolith raid comps in GW2 seem counter to the entire endgame progression model. The point is to have more specs in GW2 expansions and new raids, not the same ones. If you're looking at 4 elite specs for every class and there's still no alternative to druid/chrono/ps that system seems pretty broken doesn't it?

From an accessibility standpoint, there's always going to be a solid meta you can tell most people "go make this" due to player patterns and the fact that there is always a mathematical best. The problem is the gulf between "best" and "similar" should be a lot narrower, and go in a lot more directions specifically because of the nature of the elite spec system's focus on single class role diversity and the unchanging stat cap of gear, otherwise we end up with a growing list of full specializations and builds that go straight in to the garbage on release day and may not come out.

New specs should be giving you new reasons to go get new gear because they're worth playing basically. Without that, you've got a broken progression endgame because it's moved from "optional new raid specs every expansion" to "Don't bother training new specs"

@PopeUrban.2578 said:That's my problem. Monolith raid comps in to perpetuity is the best possible system in games where those specs actually grow over time. Monolith raid comps in GW2 seem counter to the entire endgame progression model. The point is to have more specs in GW2 expansions and new raids, not the same ones. If you're looking at 4 elite specs for every class and there's still no alternative to druid/chrono/ps that system seems pretty broken doesn't it?

Yes that hypothetical situation does seem pretty broken. But however, consider the following: its not reality.

The reality we live in is one in which double chrono has exist for about 1 year, condi ps has only been around in a serious setting about 8 (ish?) months, and new elite specs are 4 weeks old, and there have been no balance passes yet. Again, I believe dps roles are volatile, and the core 6 are stable as a design decision. I imagine Anet will eventually address the core 6, through slow methodical iterative steps, the exact same way they did to transition power ps to condi ps.

@PopeUrban.2578 said:New specs should be giving you new reasons to go get new gear because they're worth playing basically. Without that, you've got a broken progression endgame because it's moved from "optional new raid specs every expansion" to "Don't bother training new specs"

Optional has already been passed, 7/9 of the specs are the new meta option depending on the role you are filling (the 2 outsiders being spellbreaker and deadeye). Maybe you would argue holosmith isn't, but really any situation that favors power such as vg,sloth, kc,xera; holosmith is the easy winner. Don't bother training? You are so far off the mark its hard to take you seriously. Even spellbreaker might be best for kc. The only spec that doesn't even have a niche use yet seems to be deadeye. However, considering how vehemently the community has wanted sniper for years, I really doubt your premise that players are not going to bother training it.

The "core 6" is basically the center of my concern here. I understand your point, and why you think it's a good thing, but I disagree with your basic position. Its not really a stable design if your raiding game revolves around using an ever dwindling percentage of avaliable builds to fill over half of a raid comp.

To be fair I'm saying its a problem right this instant, and you're totally right, there have been no major balance passes. I also agree that in the scope of nine classes with one additional spec per expansion there are bound to be a few that are largely not designed in a way that's suitable for previous raiding content (deadeye) or are designed largely with PvP in mind (spellbreaker)

I find it problematic that the "core 6" tend to so overwhelmingly overshadow all other options despite there having been deliberate balance steps made to diversify options for those types of roles by the release date of a second expansion. I also find it problematic that a majority of raid slots are devoted to an extreme minority of roles. DPS is in a good place. DPS slot have a lot of not just "clearable" but "near peak" build diversity. What I'm saying is that support roles don't (and haven't) seen a similar diversity because the few available options aren't just better than the next best thing, They're so much better than the next best thing that it isn't worth speccing in to in the first place. I'm saying that's a pretty major balance problem in raids specifically. That so-called "support" specs with entire new support mechanics like Scourge were, out of the box, awful at support. Not just substandard, but actively bad at it to the point where the only place they got play was in the same DPS slots that already have a ton of diversity and are thus super easy to fill, and that everyone's more worried about them catching a piece of the bugged condi stacking damage than actually making them, or support firebrand, or support deadeye (could be a role for it if its mechanics were a bit different) actually attractive picks for support. That in a spec with nine classes in which the working raid design consists of 2/3 support builds... actively zero of them are usable and balance seems to care largely about DPS parity with very little though given to support parity.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Chrono is not alacrity. Why do people insist this is the main reason chrono sees use?

Druid is not only heals (a healing tempest outheals a druid in similar healing gear).

Chrono brings perma alacrity, group distortion, massive boon share and perma quickness on top of being able to deal with just about any mechanic thrown at him (a result of how the mesmer class is designed, relying on blocks and invuls to survive. Similar to how thiefs rely on dodge and evades) which makes him a great tank. Even if you were to break mesmer alacrity (or remove the ability for permanent alacrity from 1 class) chrono would still get taken along as tank and group support. You'd just have to put a revenant in the group.

The same goes for druid. People who think druid gets taken along for the heals understand very little of how raids work. Druids bring healing on top of massive team buffs (which are unique to the class) as well as massive flexibility as far as utility goes and crowd control pets for bar break. So no, a druid will not get repleaced by another good healer based on healing, this is quite evident when you consider that a healing tempest already outpferoms druid in pure healing. You are very uninformed in this regard, sorry to say.

This^

@Coulter.2315 said:This has been my fear ever since the quickness/alacrity Chrono came to be because so much utility is squeezed into it. Mesmer players are almost doomed to this role forever, which is sad. Perhaps a healing spec with equivalent special effects as Druid could give us so room for maneuver (I don't predict a mesmer ever being top DPS spec, nor should it be tbh).

Doomed? I'd say gifted. As an main chrono player im actually happy that the spec is and probably will remain dominant (meta) in the endgame content. Perhaps some more personal damage would have been appreciated. But given the support it provides, im even fine with that to balance it. As for the healing. Mesmer can do quite some healing too, especially with mantras, which you can buff even further with healing gear. But this goes at the cost of chrono's primary role. regardless, its there if desired.

I actually had an argument (discussion) with a player in a Sam run where said person told group we would fail because we didn't have a cPS, and thus not enough cc for the boss. I linked the cc I have on my renegade (3 easy ones, 4 if I ran staff) but my point was it shouldn't come down to one class dictating whether a group fails or not. If that's the case then yea, its broken for sure. I don't think it is as I stated that many others have cc, the Chrono, Druids, myself (Renegade) and if we cant get it done then WE suck, not the fact we don't have a PS. And we did, only he ran double banners but even then had wild blow and head butt.So yea, I kinda get where the Op is going in this. Its great that Chrono is a very needed class for raids but is that all they ever will be? I hope not.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Chrono is not alacrity. Why do people insist this is the main reason chrono sees use?

Druid is not only heals (a healing tempest outheals a druid in similar healing gear).

Chrono brings perma alacrity, group distortion, massive boon share and perma quickness on top of being able to deal with just about any mechanic thrown at him (a result of how the mesmer class is designed, relying on blocks and invuls to survive. Similar to how thiefs rely on dodge and evades) which makes him a great tank. Even if you were to break mesmer alacrity (or remove the ability for permanent alacrity from 1 class) chrono would still get taken along as tank and group support. You'd just have to put a revenant in the group.

The same goes for druid. People who think druid gets taken along for the heals understand very little of how raids work. Druids bring healing on top of massive team buffs (which are unique to the class) as well as massive flexibility as far as utility goes and crowd control pets for bar break. So no, a druid will not get repleaced by another good healer based on healing, this is quite evident when you consider that a healing tempest already outpferoms druid in pure healing. You are very uninformed in this regard, sorry to say.

@PopeUrban.2578 said:On the other hand, the obvious answer of "well open up alacrity to other builds" decimates something really special about chronomancer. Its alacrity and continuum shift that pretty much define the spec. If you start spreading alacrity around, Chrono goes from an auto-pick to a potential why bother.

So much this. While chrono will remain meta for groups who want to run the most optimised squad setup in raids, that doesnt mean you cant clear raids with different comp setup. You can even clear raid bosses without a single chrono in your group. So build diversity exists for those who wants it, just like meta (read -most- efficient tactic available) will still exist for people who wants to optimise their gameplay to the fullest. Even if alacrity is nerfed, chrono will still not get pushed out of being meta, because it brings so much more then just alacrity and quickness, just like druid doesnt bring only heals.