Boon strip needs to be improved across the classes. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Boon strip needs to be improved across the classes.

Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

As the post Suggests. We need more boon removal in the format. This is something that is usually held almost exclusively by necromancer as it is nearly impossible not to run at least a little boon strip. But this isn't something that should be exclusive to them. They shouldn't only be the boon stripper in the game and Spellbreaker is a start but there are a lot of classes that should be strong at boon strip but are quite weak at it.

Engineer, Mesmer, Revenant and Thief all should have much stronger boon removal.

Although I'd also add that the boon strip at the end of the Mesmer sword auto should be removed and put on their skill 3 to keep with consistency as this removed the boon control roll from raids entirely.

Perhaps some might think this is part of necromancer's identity, but I disagree that strong boon strip should be their identity as boons are extremely important across all classes.

But let's discuss.

Comments

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    Engineer, Mesmer, Revenant and Thief all should have much stronger boon removal.

    ? why? mesmer and rev ok, But thief ? thief have booostrip? if no - no one care probably :)

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    Engineer, Mesmer, Revenant and Thief all should have much stronger boon removal.

    ? why? mesmer and rev ok, But thief ? thief have booostrip? if no - no one care probably :)

    All the Classes I mentioned do have boon strip. The issue is these options aren't usually as desired in comparison to some other traits and skills.

    Why should they have more? Boon removal is necessary as a stop gap to prevent Boons from getting out of hand. And boons are far out of hand.

    Mesmer should be as good as necromancer at boon removal. They are not.

    Thief needs a bit more. They have it on a trait that effects steal.

    Revenant has some on Mallyx and I believe a trait that specifically targets stability unless I'm mistaken.

    Engineer has it on Mine and no where else even though they used to have more.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    All the Classes I mentioned do have boon strip.

    ok

    The issue is these options aren't usually as desired in comparison to some other traits and skills.

    why it should be same for them? Classess a diferent and we like it. Or we want one class whit different skins?

    Why should they have more? Boon removal is necessary as a stop gap to prevent Boons from getting out of hand. And boons are far out of hand.

    it ok, so depend from situation some classes shoudl be choosesn

    Mesmer should be as good as necromancer at boon removal. They are not.

    who say? not me.

    Thief needs a bit more. They have it on a trait that effects steal.

    nice that thief have this bonus, but I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

    Revenant has some on Mallyx and I believe a trait that specifically targets stability unless I'm mistaken.

    it not trait. it legend what u should choose before start

    Engineer has it on Mine and no where else even though they used to have more.

    nice.Same - I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    All the Classes I mentioned do have boon strip.

    ok

    The issue is these options aren't usually as desired in comparison to some other traits and skills.

    why it should be same for them? Classess a diferent and we like it. Or we want one class whit different skins?

    Why should they have more? Boon removal is necessary as a stop gap to prevent Boons from getting out of hand. And boons are far out of hand.

    it ok, so depend from situation some classes shoudl be choosesn

    Mesmer should be as good as necromancer at boon removal. They are not.

    who say? not me.

    Thief needs a bit more. They have it on a trait that effects steal.

    nice that thief have this bonus, but I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

    Revenant has some on Mallyx and I believe a trait that specifically targets stability unless I'm mistaken.

    it not trait. it legend what u should choose before start

    Engineer has it on Mine and no where else even though they used to have more.

    nice.Same - I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

    The Burden of being the Stop gap to self buffing classes shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of a single class. This leads to a lot of bad feelings and a call to nerf when it ultimately harms the overall format and further. It hyper focuses balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem.

    Either You weaken boon application substantially in PvP and WvW or you can offer more and stronger counter play. One method is a major feel bad for players the other opens new possibilities.

    Mesmer Was the as good at enchantment removal as necromancer in Guild wars 1. It is as much a part of their identity as it is for necromancer. Yet it has been neglected. Mesmer is supposed to be a control class. Which they are but they don't preform as such as well as they should anymore.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    The Burden of being the Stop gap to self buffing classes shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of a single class.

    by that logic everyone should have avatar and spirits? who no evryone spam alacrity??

    This leads to a lot of bad feelings and a call to nerf when it ultimately harms the overall format and further.

    nice words, but about they? what? where?

    It hyper focuses balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem.

    necro is not support all party alacrity .. is this problem?

    Either You weaken boon application substantially in PvP and WvW or you can offer more and stronger counter play. One method is a major feel bad for players the other opens new possibilities.

    why we should be happy for "weaken boon application substantially" ?? It opposite cut game and make it "linear".

    Mesmer Was the as good at enchantment removal as necromancer in Guild wars 1.

    yes, and in tetris game I make record in my class. Can we also add this to boon strip equation?

    Mesmer is supposed to be a control class.

    it not supposed. If someone think and hope it is not that is was supposed.

    Which they are but they don't preform as such as well as they should anymore.

    they should not. How say of greatest football player after lose game: "your expectations are your problems"

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    The Burden of being the Stop gap to self buffing classes shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of a single class.

    by that logic everyone should have avatar and spirits? who no evryone spam alacrity??

    This leads to a lot of bad feelings and a call to nerf when it ultimately harms the overall format and further.

    nice words, but about they? what? where?

    It hyper focuses balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem.

    necro is not support all party alacrity .. is this problem?

    Either You weaken boon application substantially in PvP and WvW or you can offer more and stronger counter play. One method is a major feel bad for players the other opens new possibilities.

    why we should be happy for "weaken boon application substantially" ?? It opposite cut game and make it "linear".

    Mesmer Was the as good at enchantment removal as necromancer in Guild wars 1.

    yes, and in tetris game I make record in my class. Can we also add this to boon strip equation?

    Mesmer is supposed to be a control class.

    it not supposed. If someone think and hope it is not that is was supposed.

    Which they are but they don't preform as such as well as they should anymore.

    they should not. How say of greatest football player after lose game: "your expectations are your problems"

    Actually, the rules for Basketball specifically were changed to prevent a specific type of player from rising to dominance again. The 3 point line.

    And mesmer was more control focused in GW2 early on in its life and much into HoT. It was rolled back a lot especially after PoF which is a mistake imo.

    But I'm not going to keep trying to convince you as you don't want to be convinced. So, good luck with whatever it is you do. I'm going to keep posting on issues arena net will figure out 5 years later.

    That last bit is a joke rooted in truth but still a joke.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Actually, the rules for Basketball specifically were changed to prevent a specific type of player from rising to dominance again. The 3 point line.

    this is basketball problems. :)

    And mesmer was more control focused in GW2 early on in its life and much into HoT. It was rolled back a lot especially after PoF which is a mistake imo.

    not after PoF. After one of re balances and chrono rework. It is was mistake? No . It is critical ? NO. Absolutely no. It is not good for some, but it was not mistake, it was valid step to trigger changes and push mesmer from many meta patries and top class.
    And no matter is this be same by skill, or not. there is only one maintream line, and only one valid variant and no matter that other setup is 99.999 or 100.0099 of first meta.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    All the Classes I mentioned do have boon strip.

    ok

    The issue is these options aren't usually as desired in comparison to some other traits and skills.

    why it should be same for them? Classess a diferent and we like it. Or we want one class whit different skins?

    Why should they have more? Boon removal is necessary as a stop gap to prevent Boons from getting out of hand. And boons are far out of hand.

    it ok, so depend from situation some classes shoudl be choosesn

    Mesmer should be as good as necromancer at boon removal. They are not.

    who say? not me.

    Thief needs a bit more. They have it on a trait that effects steal.

    nice that thief have this bonus, but I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

    Revenant has some on Mallyx and I believe a trait that specifically targets stability unless I'm mistaken.

    it not trait. it legend what u should choose before start

    Engineer has it on Mine and no where else even though they used to have more.

    nice.Same - I still not see reason ask more because someone can better

    The Burden of being the Stop gap to self buffing classes shouldn't fall squarely on the shoulders of a single class. This leads to a lot of bad feelings and a call to nerf when it ultimately harms the overall format and further. It hyper focuses balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem.

    Where, when, by whom exactly?

    Either You weaken boon application substantially in PvP and WvW or you can offer more and stronger counter play. One method is a major feel bad for players the other opens new possibilities.

    If the devs want boons to be a significant part of the game (and not sure why they shouldn't be, to a certain degree which will always be subjective) then I don't see why you'd suddenly need much more counterplay to consistently dismiss them in every possible situation. You talk about it "hyper focusing balance on a symptom of a problem as opposed to the main problem" because the boonstrip is somewhat limited and then try to counter boon spam with a boon strip spam. This is not a solution, this is basically piling up more of what you don't want in the game.

    Overally nah, I don't think we need more boon strip spammed from "every" class in the game in every possible scenario.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Kodama.6453Kodama.6453 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am still hoping that we are getting an elite spec focused on alchemy for the engineer in the future. This could potentially be an opportunity to improve engineer's boon hate.

    As you mentioned, engineer used to have another option to remove boons except the mine: acidic elixirs. It made all thrown elixirs deal some (very tiny) power damage and remove a boon from all enemies hit.
    In general, Anet removed alot of our aggressive usages of alchemy when it comes to thematic. Acid coating, acidic elixirs, deadly mixture, etc.

    A new elite spec that uses many different aggressive fumes and acids to apply conditions on enemies and remove boons from them seems like a good option.

  • Is this from a PvE perspective of WvW/PvP?

    For PvE I'd ask for more places where Boon Removal is actually relevant first. in WvW/PvP they just culled a bunch of boon removal in February so...

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    If this job is handed out via more e-specs, which entirely valid to do, I hope that at least the new PvE content is boon heavy on the mob side so that it matters there. From a PvP/WvW perspective I would hope it is related to the relevant profession mechanic and not accompanied by conversion to conditions or increased damage per boon removed.

  • Mesmer and thief have fantastic boon rip options. The amount of available boon strip is fine. The viability of builds that utilize it is another question. Necro identity isnt ripping boons; it is corrupting them. If sword dagger did a bit more damage on thief it would become a viable alternative for them

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:
    I hope that at least the new PvE content is boon heavy on the mob side so that it matters there.

    The issue in PvE is less a matter of number of boons than the fact that mobs don't "need" them and encounter design (a Big lump of HP attacked by a horde of players) leave room only for "the best boon ripper" (which is mesmer for the simple fact that he got boon rip on sword AA).

    Objectively, having boon heavy mobs on the new PvE content won't even begin to fix the issue since in the end you'll make use of the mesmer and if one isn't enough you'll just take a second instead of relying on other professions.

    Furthermore, If ANet generalize boon hate through e-specs, you'll end up having more competition over the boons that the poor lump of HP generate. And this might end up being an issue since ANet tend to make e-spec that carry "boon hate" effect being dependant on actually doing some boon hate in order to work at 100% (For example, spellbreaker make use of it's boon hate to build attacker insight while scourge actually need boon to corrupt for it's punishments to apply torment and cripple).

    In my opinion, the necessary step to fix boon hate in PvE is to make boon hate effects interact with defiant foes (not just the breakbar). I'm not asking for boon hate to remove defiance but at least to proc associated effect when they encounter the mechanism, without the need of superficial boons that the single mesmer with it's sword AA can remove faster than anyone.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Problem is. Chrono ist already the best stripper in longer fights in wvw!!!
    Why improve it further?

    You can easily get double the amount of strips than a scourge in longer fights. (Longer foghts = everything above 1 to 2 minutes

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kodama.6453 said:
    I am still hoping that we are getting an elite spec focused on alchemy for the engineer in the future. This could potentially be an opportunity to improve engineer's boon hate.

    As you mentioned, engineer used to have another option to remove boons except the mine: acidic elixirs. It made all thrown elixirs deal some (very tiny) power damage and remove a boon from all enemies hit.
    In general, Anet removed alot of our aggressive usages of alchemy when it comes to thematic. Acid coating, acidic elixirs, deadly mixture, etc.

    A new elite spec that uses many different aggressive fumes and acids to apply conditions on enemies and remove boons from them seems like a good option.

    I'd add boon strip to some current Elixirs. Such as the Elixir gun on Fumigate. Possible on Mortor Kit too. Just as a baseline.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating.

    The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree.

    The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways.

    So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right?

    Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you).

    and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some valid reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating.

    The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree.

    The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways.

    So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right?

    Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you).

    and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some valid reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to.

    I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now.

    Foils can be a feel bad to play against but they are vital to the health of a format. And if more foils exist players except it more as a part of the game and ultimately engage more with the format. If it's just one or 2 classes that act in this role they players fail to understand the importance of these classes and they get large amounts of community backlash to the detriment of the format. Of course a foil can never be the top build. But when a foil is strong enough and it's the only one it becomes a necessity on a team which skews people's perspective. If it's not strong enough its entirely forgotten and the top builds just run rampant unchecked creating a more stale format. Neither case is ideal. So the best solution is to increase the number of foils available to the play to diversify class representation.

    You can think of a foil like a Heel in wrestling. The Moriarty to the Sherlock Holmes. But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating.

    The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree.

    The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways.

    So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right?

    Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you).

    and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some valid reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to.

    I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now.

    OK ... that's your philosophy .. but it doesn't answer my question. What is it about the themes of the 'have not' boon strippers that makes you think they aren't at some correct amount of boon stripping capability ... whatever that level is? it's CERTAINLY not that necros excel at it.

    . But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue.

    Well, it's not an issue ... because success in this game generally has nothing to do with boon stripping; the lack of a specific skills/effects has never been a barrier to completing content and being successful. It would be more correct to say you think it's inappropriate we don't have more boon strip capability for the classes that have some access to it ... but it's a big stretch to say that's a game issue.

    I'm going to put this out there ... I would be very upset as one of these 'have not' boon stripper classes if my classes' bandwidth for skills/effects was wasted on a increase in boon strip ability for PVE .. it's been pretty clear in this game you don't get something for nothing. I can see where there is a case for this being desirable for PVP ... but the question remains what the correct amount is there. Really, I could see a point to this idea is needed IF there was more mechanics where the effect was needed to be successful. That's just not the case.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating.

    The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree.

    The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways.

    So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right?

    Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you).

    and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some valid reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to.

    I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now.

    OK ... that's your philosophy .. but it doesn't answer my question. What is it about the themes of the 'have not' boon strippers that makes you think they aren't at some correct amount of boon stripping capability ... whatever that level is? it's CERTAINLY not that necros excel at it.

    . But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue.

    Well, it's not an issue ... because success in this game generally has nothing to do with boon stripping; the lack of a specific skills/effects has never been a barrier to completing content and being successful. It would be more correct to say you think it's inappropriate we don't have more boon strip capability for the classes that have some access to it ... but it's a big stretch to say that's a game issue.

    I'm going to put this out there ... I would be very upset as one of these 'have not' boon stripper classes if my classes' bandwidth for skills/effects was wasted on a increase in boon strip ability for PVE .. it's been pretty clear in this game you don't get something for nothing. I can see where there is a case for this being desirable for PVP ... but the question remains what the correct amount is there. Really, I could see a point to this idea is needed IF there was more mechanics where the effect was needed to be successful. That's just not the case.

    There are plenty of skills that could see an improvement. On Mesmer as well. Such as Null Field and arcane thievery. Fumigate with the elixir gun could use some boon removal and these changes wouldn't harm existing builds. There are plenty of underwhelming skills that could use some improvement and plenty of traits as well. It doesn't even need to be any boon removal but specific boon targeting. Like throw Mines could break protection and Stab or something along those lines.

    Boon stripping is just one aspect of a Foil's tool kit. And it's a heavily neglected one. It's an aspect of counter play though and in the GW2 landscape it's an important one. Boons are some of the most powerful things you can do in GW2 and I don't think everyone should have corruption like necromancer does but a few extra boon strips wouldn't hurt.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would avoid giving Engineer more utility based power.
    Well played Engis of any sort right now are a tough customer as they have good survivability, good sustain and good damage.

    Giving them the ability to remove their opponent's boons might cause them to inadvertently overpower all other competition.

    Thief could use Boon removal on the AoE front maybe, perhaps a Preparations Trait which turns them into "Instant trigger" traps that also removes boons on trigger, and reintroducing "Trap Thief" playstyle but without them having actual "Traps" (Because Rune of the Trapper is a tumor)

    Revenant.... idk I would be hesitant to give them too much but I guess Rev at their core could use Boon removal without relying on Shiro specifically to rip with Herald TN or with Brutality.
    Perhaps they could put some power back into Staff, and have Staff 2 (Mender's Rebuke) remove boons on hit.

    Mesmer needs more Boon control besides Null field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery yea.
    Would be nice to put more power back into Staff by making Phantasmal Warlock (Staff 3) Remove boons.

    And nay, Boon Control is not Necro's identity : Boon CORRUPTION is.

    I would also like to add that technically, all Professions can have Boon Control through Sigils.
    But the Sigils all have Interrupts as a condition to remove boons as opposed to just using a Control effect on their target.

    It would be a nice thing to change from Interrupt as the condition for Boon Removal to either Flanking Hit or Rear Hit to proc the Sigil better.
    Of course, the internal cooldown of the effect has to be rebalanced since it's much easier to trigger the Sigil now.

    This would overall be a better change because Sigils are also part of core gameplay and having this available to more builds would provide lesser Boon oppression.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not against this, though I think all Necro's boonstrips should be changed to boon corruption instead and corruption should be almost exclusive to Necros.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not against this, though I think all Necro's boonstrips should be changed to boon corruption instead and corruption should be almost exclusive to Necros.

    It's interesting, my point of view lead me to the opposite direction.

    I think necro's boonstrips should be only boonrips supported by traits that apply specific condition based on the specialization chosen (core/reaper/scourge) and a successfull boon ripped. I believe boon corruption in it's current form shouldn't exist in the game (so, of course, I'm against the notion of this mechanism being exculsive to the necromancer).

    From my point of view, it could only be better for the necromancer and the game as a whole if the boon corruption mechanism was scraped to what I suggest. Of course I might be wrong but, still, that's my point of view and I don't think it's a worse point of view than yours. since, objectively, there is nothing to gain from the necromancer getting exclusivity on boon corruption.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not against this, though I think all Necro's boonstrips should be changed to boon corruption instead and corruption should be almost exclusive to Necros.

    It's interesting, my point of view lead me to the opposite direction.

    I think necro's boonstrips should be only boonrips supported by traits that apply specific condition based on the specialization chosen (core/reaper/scourge) and a successfull boon ripped. I believe boon corruption in it's current form shouldn't exist in the game (so, of course, I'm against the notion of this mechanism being exculsive to the necromancer).

    From my point of view, it could only be better for the necromancer and the game as a whole if the boon corruption mechanism was scraped to what I suggest. Of course I might be wrong but, still, that's my point of view and I don't think it's a worse point of view than yours. since, objectively, there is nothing to gain from the necromancer getting exclusivity on boon corruption.

    I was thinking from a view that if boon corruption became mechanically exclusive to Necromancers then it would be easier to rebalance based on the profession rather than the current method corruption works which is X boon = Y condition when corrupted.
    I'm not a fan of this setup either and would rather see more boons corrupted into damaging conditions with the stack size and duration of the boons factored in the conversion process.
    Corrupting 20-25 might for example should convert into a big 10-12 stacks of bleeding or poison or something like that.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    As a tankier DE main here, personally, I wished the big damage nerf patch wouldn't have reduced the boon strip # on skills and traits on top. Ex: Rending Shade
    Also an obsolete wonky skill like Shadow Gust could've used one boon strip with stab priority.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not against this, though I think all Necro's boonstrips should be changed to boon corruption instead and corruption should be almost exclusive to Necros.

    It's interesting, my point of view lead me to the opposite direction.

    I think necro's boonstrips should be only boonrips supported by traits that apply specific condition based on the specialization chosen (core/reaper/scourge) and a successfull boon ripped. I believe boon corruption in it's current form shouldn't exist in the game (so, of course, I'm against the notion of this mechanism being exculsive to the necromancer).

    From my point of view, it could only be better for the necromancer and the game as a whole if the boon corruption mechanism was scraped to what I suggest. Of course I might be wrong but, still, that's my point of view and I don't think it's a worse point of view than yours. since, objectively, there is nothing to gain from the necromancer getting exclusivity on boon corruption.

    I was thinking from a view that if boon corruption became mechanically exclusive to Necromancers then it would be easier to rebalance based on the profession rather than the current method corruption works which is X boon = Y condition when corrupted.
    I'm not a fan of this setup either and would rather see more boons corrupted into damaging conditions with the stack size and duration of the boons factored in the conversion process.
    Corrupting 20-25 might for example should convert into a big 10-12 stacks of bleeding or poison or something like that.

    Please don't nerf warrior more...

    But that would be hilarious to do to a warrior.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 25, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    Never said every class.

    OK ... my mistake ... still, boon strip doesn't need to be given to the classes that don't currently have it ... for the same reason.

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. We need to support the idea that choices in this game are meaningful, not degrade them with giving all classes full access to a ever widening pool of skills.

    They managed to give it to warrior so I guess they can very well give it to any profession.

    Otherwise, I do agree with Lan Deathrider, before thinking of giving boon hate on every profession, ANet should probably first fix the difference of "impact" boon hate have between sPvP/WvW and PvE. I would say that the necromancer suffer more from this "difference of impact" than from ANet using him as their main mean to restrain boons in sPvP/WvW.

    Agreed, if the theme supports it, they can dole it out to whatever classes they want. Still, what I said is correct ... every class having a boon strip is not thematically supported. I mean ... you're a reasonable person from what I can tell ... clearly you don't think giving out more boon strip is a good idea ... and likely for reasons similar to what I posted. Do we somehow think we don't want meaningful choices when we choose a class? I think we do ... and giving many classes the same access to similar tools degrades meaningful choices.

    Every class I mentioned has boon strip.

    Perhaps I wasn't clear so it's worth elaborating.

    The classes that have it thematically support boon stripping and those that don't ... don't. I think with that we agree.

    The 'amount' that a class can strip is ALSO thematically determined. You state you don't feel it should be 'exclusive' to necros (even though you acknowledge others classes have different amounts), then go to propose those other classes should have more ... without reasoning other than "necros identity" ... that's pretty weird because the theme of a class isn't determined based on the theme of another ... but let's continue anyways.

    So let me flip this around to you: Understanding that boon stripping is based on THEME for the classes ... what is your reason you believe the other classes should have more other than "it shouldn't be their (necro's) defining identity"? You do realize that giving other classes more doesn't STOP boon stripping from being a significant part of necro's identity right?

    Let's make it simpler ... what is it about the theme of the other classes that make you feel they are lacking a certain amount of boon strip? and what is the correct amount based on that theme (determined by Anet mind you).

    and just for the record to be more clear; I'm not a proponent of the idea without some relevant discussion about some valid reason for it to happen. At the moment, it should be clear I absolutely hate the idea of interesting and meaningful skills/effects being passed around to more classes to degrade what it means to have choice in classes because of effects/skills they have access to.

    I mentioned exclusively of a specific role. Not the ability to perform a task. I talked about in the past a type of class I called a foil. A foil is designed to keep popular strategies in check. The necromancer has always played this role to lesser or greater success and traditional other classes have as well such as mesmer. Boon strip is a vital too to the foil's kit and my philosophy is that a meta is unhealthy without having a number of foils in the format proportional to the number of builds. There should always be less than the total number of builds but it shouldn't be as low as it is now and as limited to one class as it is now.

    OK ... that's your philosophy .. but it doesn't answer my question. What is it about the themes of the 'have not' boon strippers that makes you think they aren't at some correct amount of boon stripping capability ... whatever that level is? it's CERTAINLY not that necros excel at it.

    . But with a diverse cast of characters like in GW2 having just one is an issue.

    Well, it's not an issue ... because success in this game generally has nothing to do with boon stripping; the lack of a specific skills/effects has never been a barrier to completing content and being successful. It would be more correct to say you think it's inappropriate we don't have more boon strip capability for the classes that have some access to it ... but it's a big stretch to say that's a game issue.

    I'm going to put this out there ... I would be very upset as one of these 'have not' boon stripper classes if my classes' bandwidth for skills/effects was wasted on a increase in boon strip ability for PVE .. it's been pretty clear in this game you don't get something for nothing. I can see where there is a case for this being desirable for PVP ... but the question remains what the correct amount is there. Really, I could see a point to this idea is needed IF there was more mechanics where the effect was needed to be successful. That's just not the case.

    There are plenty of skills that could see an improvement. On Mesmer as well. Such as Null Field and arcane thievery. Fumigate with the elixir gun could use some boon removal and these changes wouldn't harm existing builds. There are plenty of underwhelming skills that could use some improvement and plenty of traits as well. It doesn't even need to be any boon removal but specific boon targeting. Like throw Mines could break protection and Stab or something along those lines.

    Right .. but 'improvement' isn't a reason to change something because EVERYTHING can be improved. Knowing Anet values theme and choices need to be meaningful ... why and how do these boon strip on have nots get improvement? See, here is really the problem .... boon stripping just isn't that important in PVE ... so there is no argument for wasting resource bandwidth to improve it based on PVE things.

    Boon stripping is just one aspect of a Foil's tool kit. And it's a heavily neglected one. It's an aspect of counter play though and in the GW2 landscape it's an important one. Boons are some of the most powerful things you can do in GW2 and I don't think everyone should have corruption like necromancer does but a few extra boon strips wouldn't hurt.

    You're putting the cart before the horse ... It's 'heavily neglected' because PVE success in this game has little to no need for boon stripping. You would definitely have more of a case to improve boon stripping on classes IF it was more significant in how people 'win' in this game.

    The real path to justify this idea is PVP/WvW, not PVE because in those game modes, boon stripping is part of a successful strategy for winning.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All classes should have a type of boon strip in one way or another. I just find it a lack of imagination that anet has not let classes who do not have boon strip able to do so in there own way.

    My though would by letting ele and gurd have the ability to "burn" away boons not so much of a boon strip but a boon duration speed up to where boons tick faster though there duration but with the same boon effect.

    There is room for ever class to have a counter to boons be it just a simple strip or some other means. To think its ok that classes not to have any counter play to boons is just a hallmark of bad balancing.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Corrupting 20-25 might for example should convert into a big 10-12 stacks of bleeding or poison or something like that.

    Please don't nerf warrior more...

    But that would be hilarious to do to a warrior.

    You mean that it would spell the end of sPvP/WvW since pretty much anybody can stack 25 might (Yeah, it's a bit harder since feb patch but still pretty much doable). There would be riots in the whole forum (not just the sPvP subforum), players would brandish pitch and forks, they would ask to burn necromancers alive (And I must say that I would probably agree, there is a good reason why might isn't converted into a stackable damaging condition).

    The funniest point is that it would increase even more boon convertion's difference of efficiency between PvE and competitive modes. Which mean that on one side you'd have a necromancer PvE community argue that they are lacking while all other professions PvP player would label them as being broken OP (not very different from what we already have but accentuated nonetheless).

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I'm not against this, though I think all Necro's boonstrips should be changed to boon corruption instead and corruption should be almost exclusive to Necros.

    It's interesting, my point of view lead me to the opposite direction.

    I think necro's boonstrips should be only boonrips supported by traits that apply specific condition based on the specialization chosen (core/reaper/scourge) and a successfull boon ripped. I believe boon corruption in it's current form shouldn't exist in the game (so, of course, I'm against the notion of this mechanism being exculsive to the necromancer).

    From my point of view, it could only be better for the necromancer and the game as a whole if the boon corruption mechanism was scraped to what I suggest. Of course I might be wrong but, still, that's my point of view and I don't think it's a worse point of view than yours. since, objectively, there is nothing to gain from the necromancer getting exclusivity on boon corruption.

    I was thinking from a view that if boon corruption became mechanically exclusive to Necromancers then it would be easier to rebalance based on the profession rather than the current method corruption works which is X boon = Y condition when corrupted.
    I'm not a fan of this setup either and would rather see more boons corrupted into damaging conditions with the stack size and duration of the boons factored in the conversion process.
    Corrupting 20-25 might for example should convert into a big 10-12 stacks of bleeding or poison or something like that.

    Please don't nerf warrior more...

    But that would be hilarious to do to a warrior.

    It would lol
    Naturally it would have to be split between PvE and PvP modes for balance much like a lot of condi's, CC's, Strips and stuff are already.
    Specially in WvW.

    Overall it would just give Necros another method of circumstantial condi application to cover for how abysmally inefficient they are at stacking them.. it's more of an issue in PvE than anything and still wouldn't be that much of a boost since most enemies don't self buff to be corrupted anyway.

  • there def needs to be more boon rip. the nerf to boon rip in the megapatch was dumb. this could be done easily and effectively but this is anet we're talking about.

    te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    there def needs to be more boon rip. the nerf to boon rip in the megapatch was dumb. this could be done easily and effectively but this is anet we're talking about.

    Not as dumb as the removal of damage from CC, although still rather dumb.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    there def needs to be more boon rip. the nerf to boon rip in the megapatch was dumb. this could be done easily and effectively but this is anet we're talking about.

    Not as dumb as the removal of damage from CC, although still rather dumb.

    Yeah I wasn't a fan of that either.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 30, 2020

    I actually currently have a very different opinion on this from what I've seen reading this thread, and that's that I think every profession should have some minor boon strip somewhere. Why? because that's really the only way I see Anet ever being able to make boons a fundamental part of PvE design.

    Retaliation on mobs for example, which can kill a player in literally (3-5) seconds in PvE if they have a couple of rolling damage effects stacked (like Guardian Symbols, Ele Fields), could be a really interesting tool for Anet to play with to make open world, story and such a lot less brainless - having to watch out for such effects and react quickly with counterplay, while also really only being punishing for already proficient players with good damage rotations, aka the players most bored and not catered to by that content currently.

    But as long as some professions just don't have any counterplay available to that and simply won't be able to fight those mobs (and no, I don't think expecting people to swap to a weapon with a Sigil of Nullification for every mob with a vital boon to remove that they might encounter is reasonable), that can't be done well.

    I do think Necro's (Spellbreakers, etc.), somewhat themed around that with Corruptions, should be one of the few specs actually benefitting from boon removal beyond just removing the boon, as well as be needed for sustained/heavy boon removal needs, but unless every class at least very sporadically has access to some/one, boons can't ever be that staple feature in PvE that they are imo supposed to be.

    PvE could be drastically more interesting if some mobs just had certain boons, or skills applying certain boons, but right now facing a mob with perma Protection for example would just be a spongy annoyance for most classes, rather than an interesting mechanical interaction rewarding players for build craft and awareness.
    I want to see some mobs going into a rage, applying 25 Might and Quickness and being genuinely dangerous unless quickly stripped of that, other's shield themselves or just come with Protection, others's taking on a defensive stance, or with creative mob design - covering themselves in spikes or such and getting Retaliation, some mob types that keep running around while having Swiftness, but become snared once removed etc.
    Clear visual cues with interesting and rewarding counterplay, and the systems for that are all in place since launch to never be properly utilised.

    As for concerns about "theme", that's imo the weakest argument imaginable, as just about everything can be themed right with some creativity, be it a Guardian smiting boons off enemies with holy wrath or cleansing fire, a Elementalist burning them off or draining them with arcane energies, a Revenant eating them as Mallyx, a Mesmer disenchanting, a Necro corrupting, a Warrior Spellbreaking, a Thief stealing, an Engineer using alchemical concoctions, or a Ranger taming a boon eating pet, or enchanting one to do so with cleansing nature magic, theme really never should or needs to stay in the way of interesting gameplay and mechanics, if done reasonably.

    To reiterate though, I do not wish everything to be loaded with Boon removal, absolutely not, and I do think boon strip on auto attacks, like is the case for Mesmer, absolutely needs to go for this mechanic to ever be remotely interesting as active mechanical choice, along with most if not all accidental/passive sources.

    But I truly think that with every profession having some active boonstrip in their core kit, no matter how minor, that could have allowed Anet to straight up revolutionize PvE in terms of mob design, enemy distinction as well as player interaction and engagement.

    Even if done in the laziest/easiest way possible, like a uniquely themed per profession PvE-only Utility skill, I still think it could go far in improving the game, but for that Anet would have to go back and look at all of the swing a sword and swing it again boring and barely interactive OW and Story PvE content done previously as well (same with breakbars, in addition to boons), and we all know that's not going to happen anyway.

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  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:
    As the post Suggests. We need more boon removal in the format. This is something that is usually held almost exclusively by necromancer as it is nearly impossible not to run at least a little boon strip. But this isn't something that should be exclusive to them. They shouldn't only be the boon stripper in the game and Spellbreaker is a start but there are a lot of classes that should be strong at boon strip but are quite weak at it.

    Engineer, Mesmer, Revenant and Thief all should have much stronger boon removal.

    Although I'd also add that the boon strip at the end of the Mesmer sword auto should be removed and put on their skill 3 to keep with consistency as this removed the boon control roll from raids entirely.

    Perhaps some might think this is part of necromancer's identity, but I disagree that strong boon strip should be their identity as boons are extremely important across all classes.

    But let's discuss.

    Actually, I think they need to reduce boon application, and also address control condition spam as well.
    Too many classes can apply rapidly many full stacking, permaduration uptime boons and control conditions.

    I would prefer they limit certain boons to specific classes, and also control conditions; IE,
    warrior, thief, elementalist are might
    guardian, engineer, and necro are protection
    etc, etc, by groups of three, Heavy, Medium, and Light armor to keep the mix balanced. Do this with all of the boons, alacrity, regen, quickness, fury, etc and weight all of them so that each class has 2 things that are desirable. Then do the same thing with conditions that affect control; chill, cripple, slow, weakness, etc. Condition damage stacking is it's own problem and would take more time to solve.

    At this point, the spam and re-application is so out of control, that I dont find it fun to have 8 conditions dropped in a bomb, or likewise boons. And if they get stripped, they can get re-applied with relative ease. It would be more fun instead of playing the spam game and just answering it with tons of boon strip to just reduce them all together and make them more valuable.

    This would take a ton of work and I doubt they will do this... even though they should for the health of the game.

    Makes me wish I could play Beta again, but with gliding and ground mounts and have that be the only changes...

  • As long as Necromancer in turn gets just as easy access (as everyone else) to active blocks, evades, boons, and mobility - I am OK with this.

    As it stands, boon removal is the one niche that Necromancer does really well. Pretty much everything else is done better than them by anyone else. Taking that away from Necromancer means that you need to make Necromancer far more competent in all other fields.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    As long as Necromancer in turn gets just as easy access (as everyone else) to active blocks, evades, boons, and mobility - I am OK with this.

    As it stands, boon removal is the one niche that Necromancer does really well. Pretty much everything else is done better than them by anyone else. Taking that away from Necromancer means that you need to make Necromancer far more competent in all other fields.

    Fun fact, in pve and WvW there's better boon removers than necro is xD

  • The Boz.2038The Boz.2038 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    As long as Necromancer in turn gets just as easy access (as everyone else) to active blocks, evades, boons, and mobility - I am OK with this.

    As it stands, boon removal is the one niche that Necromancer does really well. Pretty much everything else is done better than them by anyone else. Taking that away from Necromancer means that you need to make Necromancer far more competent in all other fields.

    Everyone: Boon removal. Most get it sparse, one boon removed here and there. Some, like Spellbreaker, Mesmer, Thief, get multiple removals on a few skills.
    Necromancer: Boon corruption. Mass removal. Punishment.
    There, i fixed it.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2020

    @Opopanax.1803 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    As the post Suggests. We need more boon removal in the format. This is something that is usually held almost exclusively by necromancer as it is nearly impossible not to run at least a little boon strip. But this isn't something that should be exclusive to them. They shouldn't only be the boon stripper in the game and Spellbreaker is a start but there are a lot of classes that should be strong at boon strip but are quite weak at it.

    Engineer, Mesmer, Revenant and Thief all should have much stronger boon removal.

    Although I'd also add that the boon strip at the end of the Mesmer sword auto should be removed and put on their skill 3 to keep with consistency as this removed the boon control roll from raids entirely.

    Perhaps some might think this is part of necromancer's identity, but I disagree that strong boon strip should be their identity as boons are extremely important across all classes.

    But let's discuss.

    Actually, I think they need to reduce boon application, and also address control condition spam as well.
    Too many classes can apply rapidly many full stacking, permaduration uptime boons and control conditions.

    I would prefer they limit certain boons to specific classes, and also control conditions; IE,
    warrior, thief, elementalist are might
    guardian, engineer, and necro are protection
    etc, etc, by groups of three, Heavy, Medium, and Light armor to keep the mix balanced. Do this with all of the boons, alacrity, regen, quickness, fury, etc and weight all of them so that each class has 2 things that are desirable. Then do the same thing with conditions that affect control; chill, cripple, slow, weakness, etc. Condition damage stacking is it's own problem and would take more time to solve.

    At this point, the spam and re-application is so out of control, that I dont find it fun to have 8 conditions dropped in a bomb, or likewise boons. And if they get stripped, they can get re-applied with relative ease. It would be more fun instead of playing the spam game and just answering it with tons of boon strip to just reduce them all together and make them more valuable.

    This would take a ton of work and I doubt they will do this... even though they should for the health of the game.

    Makes me wish I could play Beta again, but with gliding and ground mounts and have that be the only changes...

    The major problem with that is Anet would essentially have to completely resdesign half the game/professions. Like if Guardian wouldn't be allowed to have Might, what does Empowerment or Symbol of Punishment, as well as all the Traits like Empowering Might or Zealous Scepter now do? And that's just a tiny slice of one boon on one profession on a few example skills and Traits. Anet would basically have to retool and balance all professions.
    And even if they could pull that off, how would that affect solo play (beyond possibly forcing everybody to be a Diviner boon hybrid providing their 1-2 Profession boons in group content)? You basically wouldn't want to play anything outside of group content that didn't get the Might and Fury treatment at the very least, which are at the bare minimum essentially mandatory for any solo build.

    Honestly I think Anet did a pretty decent job at culling boon and condition spam/uptime in PvP and WvW (where it was a problem) already with the big CmC patch.
    The problem was just as usual that it didn't get any of the frequent follow up patches that it needed. But Imo that's probably the better way to go about it, as much as I personally like they idea as well of more Profession identity with boons and conditions, I also think that might just be a way too big redesign at this point, especially with soon three elite specs which further diversify any given profession.
    Boons are just too universal and integral to the game and to all professions.

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    As long as Necromancer in turn gets just as easy access (as everyone else) to active blocks, evades, boons, and mobility - I am OK with this.

    As it stands, boon removal is the one niche that Necromancer does really well. Pretty much everything else is done better than them by anyone else. Taking that away from Necromancer means that you need to make Necromancer far more competent in all other fields.

    Fun fact, in pve and WvW there's better boon removers than necro is xD

    Same in PvE, Necro was never really used for content requiring Boon removal, be it in Fractals or Raids, since it's just too lacklustre as profession over all. Usually it was covered by the Mesmer (boon/tank Chrono) or Revenant (Alacrigade).
    As long as Necro is just damage, and poorly at even that, it can have all the boon corrupts as niche it wants (which it lost many of over the years already, without getting much in return), there already was never a point in taking it - so if someone is afraid of that adding some boon removal to other specs will invalidate Necro, that ship has long sailed, or rather, was never in port to begin with.

    And yes, I agree. Necro needs to be more competent in other fields and actually be designed for GW2, rather than some game that never was.
    The vulnerability applying, boon corrupting and such "debuffer" role it seemed intended to be just never existed, at least in PvE.

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