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when we going to nerf holo and thief?


felix.2386

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when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

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@"felix.2386" said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

And how exactly does thief "shut down anyone" when they're squishier than most other meta classes and builds and the best thing they can do is just stealth and run away.

What exactly do they do that other classes don't to "shut down anyone?" They have less CC than other meta builds. No joke... If you're a thief and step into a teamfight for even a second you're going to get CC chained and die unless you use your one source of stability and the only other stunbreak you have.

Thief is really not the problem in this meta. They're relegated to +1 and decapping for a reason. You're not meant to 1v1 and you're not meant to teamfight. So how exactly is a class that's been so neutered save pigeonholed into that role shutting down anyone? Headshot spamming? Cool, there goes your initiative and therefore your damage. Steal? Ok, that's an interrupt. Not a stun, knock back, knock down, etc. Choking gas? Ok yeah that's an interrupt but again it uses initiative so there goes your damage. Basi venom? Sure I'll hand it to basi. That's a stun.

The only build that's capable of chain CC is sword/pistol with pistol whip and basi venom but that's not even the meta build and rarely seen in play.

There are so many other classes that ACTUALLY shut down someone with CC like condi core necro fear spam yet....you don't mention that at all. Ok.....

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@Anomaly.7612 said:

@"felix.2386" said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

And how exactly does thief "shut down anyone" when they're squishier than most other meta classes and builds and the best thing they can do is just stealth and run away.

What exactly do they do that other classes don't to "shut down anyone?" They have less CC than other meta builds. No joke... If you're a thief and step into a teamfight for even a second you're going to get CC chained and die unless you use your one source of stability and the only other stunbreak you have.

Thief is really not the problem in this meta. They're relegated to +1 and decapping for a reason. You're not meant to 1v1 and you're not meant to teamfight. So how exactly is a class that's been so neutered save pigeonholed into that role shutting down anyone? Headshot spamming? Cool, there goes your initiative and therefore your damage. Steal? Ok, that's an interrupt. Not a stun, knock back, knock down, etc. Choking gas? Ok yeah that's an interrupt but again it uses initiative so there goes your damage. Basi venom? Sure I'll hand it to basi. That's a stun.

The only build that's capable of chain CC is sword/pistol with pistol whip and basi venom but that's not even the meta build and rarely seen in play.

There are so many other classes that ACTUALLY shut down someone with CC like condi core necro fear spam yet....you don't mention that at all. Ok.....

He's a warrior player and I can see why a warrior player would say that thief shuts him down due to the fact the common meta dp build has a lot of access to blinds and is very effective at shutting down a warrior if timed right. That said I believe the thief does not need a nerf and has more to do with the devs absolutely destroying warrior due to their incompetence with regards to balancing, namely the ridiculous blanket patch in feb that tanked this games pvp further.My opinion anyway.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"felix.2386" said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

And how exactly does thief "shut down anyone" when they're squishier than most other meta classes and builds and the best thing they can do is just stealth and run away.

What exactly do they do that other classes don't to "shut down anyone?" They have less CC than other meta builds. No joke... If you're a thief and step into a teamfight for even a second you're going to get CC chained and die unless you use your one source of stability and the only other stunbreak you have.

Thief is really not the problem in this meta. They're relegated to +1 and decapping for a reason. You're not meant to 1v1 and you're not meant to teamfight. So how exactly is a class that's been so neutered save pigeonholed into that role shutting down anyone? Headshot spamming? Cool, there goes your initiative and therefore your damage. Steal? Ok, that's an interrupt. Not a stun, knock back, knock down, etc. Choking gas? Ok yeah that's an interrupt but again it uses initiative so there goes your damage. Basi venom? Sure I'll hand it to basi. That's a stun.

The only build that's capable of chain CC is sword/pistol with pistol whip and basi venom but that's not even the meta build and rarely seen in play.

There are so many other classes that ACTUALLY shut down someone with CC like condi core necro fear spam yet....you don't mention that at all. Ok.....

He's a warrior player and I can see why a warrior player would say that thief shuts him down due to the fact the common meta dp build has a lot of access to blinds and is very effective at shutting down a warrior if timed right. That said I believe the thief does not need a nerf and has more to do with the devs absolutely destroying warrior due to their incompetence with regards to balancing, namely the ridiculous blanket patch in feb that tanked this games pvp further.My opinion anyway.

Oh yeah I'd have to agree with that. PvP feels like a clown fiesta of CC being thrown out like candy and most meta build being built around sustain and cc than much else. Reminds me of some of the worst metas in WoW PvP when the only way to kill someone in arena was to chain CC the healer as much as possible otherwise the game would go so deep into dampening healing wouldn't matter.

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@Swagger.1459 said:I think we should buff thief so they are better for team play and we should give engineer 2 active weapon slots as a standard function.

All thief would need for team play is to rework the acrobatics traitline that hasn't seen play in years. Literally an entire traitline that's just been KIA for a while now. That would give a sword/dagger bruiser build more capability and teamfight potential.

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@Anomaly.7612 said:

@"felix.2386" said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

And how exactly does thief "shut down anyone" when they're squishier than most other meta classes and builds and the best thing they can do is just stealth and run away.

What exactly do they do that other classes don't to "shut down anyone?" They have less CC than other meta builds. No joke... If you're a thief and step into a teamfight for even a second you're going to get CC chained and die unless you use your one source of stability and the only other stunbreak you have.

Thief is really not the problem in this meta. They're relegated to +1 and decapping for a reason. You're not meant to 1v1 and you're not meant to teamfight. So how exactly is a class that's been so neutered save pigeonholed into that role shutting down anyone? Headshot spamming? Cool, there goes your initiative and therefore your damage. Steal? Ok, that's an interrupt. Not a stun, knock back, knock down, etc. Choking gas? Ok yeah that's an interrupt but again it uses initiative so there goes your damage. Basi venom? Sure I'll hand it to basi. That's a stun.

The only build that's capable of chain CC is sword/pistol with pistol whip and basi venom but that's not even the meta build and rarely seen in play.

There are so many other classes that ACTUALLY shut down someone with CC like condi core necro fear spam yet....you don't mention that at all. Ok.....

the role of gank is to shutdown anyone that is in combat. if you actually play thief plat2+do you know how to shutdown people? you shutdown by interrupting crucial sustain skill, you don't spam them.

or do i really have to teach you how to play thief again, isn't it embarassing when a non thief main is teaching a thief main how to play thief properly at plat 2 level.

do you know how to use shortbow? the god weapon of thief,you go stealth, you shortbow 1 for 2 sec immob,so either the guy pop huge CD or he takes clusterbomb and w/e your teammate has.most of the time, if the guy has been dueling with your teammate, he would be low on CD anyone, most of the guy just dies to cluster bomb on immob.

if he had big CD on, because he's good, thenif he pops block, you pre-cast clusterbomb and steal on him, he's also dead.or if he heals, the same thing.

if he cleanse the immob and dodge if he's really good.all you have to do is share venom, and wait for your team to hit him. and chain venom on him.

even if he got out of immob, steal and venom chain, you just smokebomb and shortbow 1 him again with 2 second immob, he will be dead.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"felix.2386" said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

And how exactly does thief "shut down anyone" when they're squishier than most other meta classes and builds and the best thing they can do is just stealth and run away.

What exactly do they do that other classes don't to "shut down anyone?" They have less CC than other meta builds. No joke... If you're a thief and step into a teamfight for even a second you're going to get CC chained and die unless you use your one source of stability and the only other stunbreak you have.

Thief is really not the problem in this meta. They're relegated to +1 and decapping for a reason. You're not meant to 1v1 and you're not meant to teamfight. So how exactly is a class that's been so neutered save pigeonholed into that role shutting down anyone? Headshot spamming? Cool, there goes your initiative and therefore your damage. Steal? Ok, that's an interrupt. Not a stun, knock back, knock down, etc. Choking gas? Ok yeah that's an interrupt but again it uses initiative so there goes your damage. Basi venom? Sure I'll hand it to basi. That's a stun.

The only build that's capable of chain CC is sword/pistol with pistol whip and basi venom but that's not even the meta build and rarely seen in play.

There are so many other classes that ACTUALLY shut down someone with CC like condi core necro fear spam yet....you don't mention that at all. Ok.....

He's a warrior player and I can see why a warrior player would say that thief shuts him down due to the fact the common meta dp build has a lot of access to blinds and is very effective at shutting down a warrior if timed right. That said I believe the thief does not need a nerf and has more to do with the devs absolutely destroying warrior due to their incompetence with regards to balancing, namely the ridiculous blanket patch in feb that tanked this games pvp further.My opinion anyway.

fun fact, i play build i don't play class, i play w/e build that's good and fun. you can call me multiclasser if you really want to play "class" in a pvp game.builds i've been playing in pvp plat 2 lately: d/p thief, s/s herald, kalla rene, shiro rene, nade holo, healbreaker.and i can tell you by far, d/p thief and nade holo are the most busted, hard carry-able build in the game.

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@felix.2386 said:

@"Kuma.1503" said:Hasn't Holo gotten nerfed in nearly every balance patch thus far?

Just because the class refuses to die doesn't mean it hasn't been nerfed.

did i say that they didn't receive nerf in the past? or is that something that matters in this topic?

When someone says "When are we going to nerf X"?

It implies that they're saying "why haven't you done this yet"? rather than "you need to do it again". It's equally my fault for interpreting your words wrong, but perhaps different wording would have gotten your point across better? Maybe something along the lines of "Holo and thief still overloaded".

Either way, that's not important. I don't think nerfing Holo/thief is the answer. both are fun, challenging to master, it's rewarding, good amount of depth that distinguish good ones from bad ones (bad thiefs especially stand out). I'd rather not take the approach of "nerf it til it's dead", or simply not meta anymore.

I'm looking at other classes, and mesmer is still in a bad place. Firebrand, druid, and scourge are all underperforming as supports, Ele has arguably been overnerfed and has one build which they can call competetive (and it's outclassed by Healbreaker), warrior has been nerfed so hard in the dps department that they're only useful as healers (which I'm sure warrior mains are not terribly happy with).

First thing I'd do is tone down plasma so thief doesn't bully mesmer as hardNext thing I'd do is give mesmer some love so thief has some competition as a roamer/+1erI'd give firebrand some of it's boons back. Namely stab for allies so people can have fun in teamfights again without being rag doll'ed around. Also buff the healing of mantra of solace to something instead of nothing.I'd give warrior back some damage on their more telegraphed CCs. Effort/reward is not where it should be currently.I'd revert the cooldown nerf on celestial avatar (also undo pet nerf) so druids can gain back a bit of versatility, but I would also remove binding roots from the game entirely. It's buggy and obnoxious. Replace them with a single immob application that doesn't pulse.I'd give ele a health buff. 11k hp made since when ele had top tier damage and sustain as a trade off, but both have been nerfed. Let them have more base health so they're not pigeon-holed into +vitality amulets.

Other builds like scrapper and scourge could also use some work, but I'm not sure what they need.

Focus on fixing what isn't working instead of breaking what does.

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imo issue with holo its being bursty and soomewhat tankly at the same time, overheat should be prejudicial to the player not used as a gimmick for damage as well :\

Overheat should be a slighlty harder to reachShould increase by a decent number the casting time and skill recharge delay of the skills. 65% CD increase and casting tiime at 90% more than then self damage towards burn.Non holo utilities take 50% to 75% more effect of the heat system drawback

This changes could balance and kill the macro holos in one hit...

On team play would make better use of classes with alacrity and quickness to easy the holo overburdening its CD.

About thif... . stealth problem sleeps in the netcode itself, cant be touched lol...

I think thief are doing their job, damage traits to improve rifle should not work on other weapons tho.

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@felix.2386 said:when we going to nerf holo and thief?completely the most busted classes for the entire 2020devs you realize that 2020 is ending right?

remove leap from sword and remove superspeed from holo 2, if you want to keep all the core stealth, and Sand explosive entrance is stupidly busted

thief will literally shutdown anyone that isn't a holo with 0 counter play if the thief actually has half a brain

pvp is literally a joke to this point

holo is broken and need to be massivly nerfed !as for thief.. honestly. . mostly stealth.. im sorry bot stealth is so retarded .. they can consantly stealth to get away from fight..Anet need to rework stealth entirely.

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@asterix.9614 said:As long as they don't touch holo in wvw, I kitten roam with it, and it takes skills to catch some pew pew ranger or thief that resets....

sorry but holo is also op in wvw roaming.. with that said..all these pew pew need tunning down in wvw aswell.. .. that includes rangers and deadeyesi mean.. for rangers sorry but 1500 range is just alot of issue.. because so many classes lack the mobility to catch up to them.. and if we are fair.. rangers are also good in melee range and they are not as glass as supposed to be.. they are very sustainable.. and not to mention their endless immoblize !

for deadeye.. honestly again stealth ... i really think Anet need to rework stealth.. its so stupid and abused .. stupid thieves can just stealth every 2 seconds..in 1v1 its nearly impossible to kill them because they can just stealth away .

stealth need to haev long CD and maybe stun after stealth

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@asterix.9614 said:As long as they don't touch holo in wvw, I kitten roam with it, and it takes skills to catch some pew pew ranger or thief that resets....If someone thinks nade holo is maximum broken in pvp, he hasn't seen it in wvw. It's unbeatable 1v1. The only reason soulbeast is picked more frequently by tryhard roamers is that this spec is almost the broken fight presence of nade holo, but with almost thief like mobility, which is overall the best mix to faceroll everything.

And thief ... thief is just endless resets. Not necessarily broken in the actual fight, but you can't get rid of its endless resets and re-engages, which makes it the fun-killer number one for every one else in wvw and a class that simply has to be deleted or reworked from the ground up.

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@"Quadox.7834" said:i like how they nerfed mesmer "gain superspeed when you use a manipulation utility" from 3 sec to 1.5 sec and holo gets to have 3 sec superspeed on 4 sec cooldown

holo is retarded broken .. if im honest.. i think both Holo and scapper shouldnt be able to use the core engi kits.. as drawbackand holo.. need even further nerfs.. its just stupid op.. i dont think anything can beat holo..mesmer i think is certainly over nerfed... to a point where you would only see mirage in pvp.. and barely even that..chrono and core mesmers need to be buffed to be played and vailable option in ranked pvp for teamfights aswell.. and not just +1 where thief and herald jsut do it better

regarding thief .. as i said stealth is retarded and need to be reworked to have a long CD and not to be spamable .. it need to have a drawback and be like.. omg im gonna die emergency situation skill.. and not like it is today.. "i stealth because i can " or i dont feel comfortable ill stealth and get away from my target and burst him again and stealth again.. on top of that stealth need to drain HP or.. atlest stealth shouldnt work when someone is within a certain radius as it is in every other gamei havent seen a game that keep stealth like it is in gw2.. because everyone udnerstand that stealth is too powerful

and daredevil need even further nerfs .. to its burst potential especially with shadow art.. daredevil is just too strong.. and has very little counter..id say after holo its the most brother class.. and they are way too common ..

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Even after nerfing Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit holosmiths still stack 25 stacks of might like nothing, if that doesn't say something about how broken the spec is IDK what does.

About thief, this week I tried having some duels for fun with this class. I was playing thief for the first time, and yet I have been able to kill 3 of my guild mates (warrior, burn dh, chronomancer) without ever being in danger. I made every mistake that could be possibly made, but there was no way to capitalize on any of them just because of the perma blind + stealth spam; you open with 4k\5k damage whatever you do, sooner or later someone will drop below 50%. It took quite a while to get it done, but it's a guaranteed victory unless you do some real major mistake.

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@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Even after nerfing Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit holosmiths still stack 25 stacks of might like nothing, if that doesn't say something about how broken the spec is IDK what does.

About thief, this week I tried having some duels for fun with this class. I was playing thief for the first time, and yet I have been able to kill 3 of my guild mates (warrior, burn dh, chronomancer) without ever being in danger. I made every mistake that could be possibly made, but there was no way to capitalize on any of them just because of the perma blind + stealth spam; you open with 4k\5k damage whatever you do, sooner or later someone will drop below 50%. It took quite a while to get it done, but it's a guaranteed victory unless you do some real major mistake.

a good daredevil can do 20k in like 2-3 seconds? while constantly ccing you and what not..

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@noiwk.2760 said:

@"Terrorhuz.4695" said:Even after nerfing Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit holosmiths still stack 25 stacks of might like nothing, if that doesn't say something about how broken the spec is IDK what does.

About thief, this week I tried having some duels for fun with this class. I was playing thief for the first time, and yet I have been able to kill 3 of my guild mates (warrior, burn dh, chronomancer) without ever being in danger. I made every mistake that could be possibly made, but there was no way to capitalize on any of them just because of the perma blind + stealth spam; you open with 4k\5k damage whatever you do, sooner or later someone will drop below 50%. It took quite a while to get it done, but it's a guaranteed victory unless you do some real major mistake.

a good daredevil can do 20k in like 2-3 seconds? while constantly ccing you and what not..

A bad daredevil will just jump back and forth, blind and stealth until you either drop dead or he gets bored of tiptapping around and find something else to do. The problem is not "how much good players can make out of thief", the problem is how forgiving the class is whenever you make any mistake.

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@Terrorhuz.4695 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Even after nerfing Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit holosmiths still stack 25 stacks of might like nothing, if that doesn't say something about how broken the spec is IDK what does.

About thief, this week I tried having some duels for fun with this class. I was playing thief for the first time, and yet I have been able to kill 3 of my guild mates (warrior, burn dh, chronomancer) without ever being in danger. I made every mistake that could be possibly made, but there was no way to capitalize on any of them just because of the perma blind + stealth spam; you open with 4k\5k damage whatever you do, sooner or later someone will drop below 50%. It took quite a while to get it done, but it's a guaranteed victory unless you do some real major mistake.

a good daredevil can do 20k in like 2-3 seconds? while constantly ccing you and what not..

A bad daredevil will just jump back and forth, blind and stealth until you either drop dead or he gets bored of tiptapping and find something else to do. The problem is not "how much good players can make out of thief", the problem is how forgiving the class is in regards to pepegas.

anyways daredevil is broken.. so is holo and they both need a massive nerf.. and stealth need a rework.. its not cool that thief can at any time decide..ohh this guy is beter than me ill just stealth ..

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@noiwk.2760 said:holo is kitten broken .. if im honest.. i think both Holo and scapper shouldnt be able to use the core engi kits.. as drawback

So basically you want to completely kill and delete both elite specs of the engineer from the game. Engineer has the smallest pool of available weapons (3 core weapons with rifle, pistol and shield) and no access to weapon swap (and even if engineer had access to weapon swap, the lack of core weapons would make it meaningless).

Kits are our replacement for weapons and weapon swap. Taking away kits from engi elite specs is no option.

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@Kodama.6453 said:

@noiwk.2760 said:holo is kitten broken .. if im honest.. i think both Holo and scapper shouldnt be able to use the core engi kits.. as drawback

So basically you want to completely kill and delete both elite specs of the engineer from the game. Engineer has the smallest pool of available weapons (3 core weapons with rifle, pistol and shield) and no access to weapon swap (and even if engineer had access to weapon swap, the lack of core weapons would make it meaningless).

Kits are our replacement for weapons and weapon swap. Taking away kits from engi elite specs is no option.

allowing scrapper to remain so naturally tanky and abusing explosive shit kit to still do shit tons of damage is also not an option .and this before we even mention Holo.. that is even far more broken.. franky. even if every single skill of holo get 20% reduce damage im still pretty sure holo will remain somewhere at the top of pvp.. this is how silly strong holos are..

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