Anet needs to balance PvE more! — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Anet needs to balance PvE more!

Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

PvE is mine and many other's preferred game mode. And from that perspective it often seems that PvE is largely ignored when it comes to balance which I feel is a mistake. A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

You could tell me to do PvP or WvW more. But those formats are extremely stressful for me. I don't like killing other players, I get no enjoyment from being killed by them myself. I prefer spectating those. And my involvement with spectating is directly linked to my enjoyment of PvE.

So this post is more personal feels on the issue. From my perspective, PvE is the most important part of the game. And new content is soured for me when the gameplay has stagnated for me. I enjoy a PvE experience that is evolving. And without new skills being added, balance is where I turn to to find my thrills with experimentation and adapting.

Comments

  • Dante.1508Dante.1508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Gotta keep up with the Meta little Hamster. Don't let that treadmill slow down.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1508 said:
    Gotta keep up with the Meta little Hamster. Don't let that treadmill slow down.

    The meta hasn't changed in quite a while and not at all dramatically.

  • I like open world PvE unbalanced. More fun that way when you can switch characters and have completely different builds, play styles, and challenges.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SinisterSlay.6973 said:
    I like open world PvE unbalanced. More fun that way when you can switch characters and have completely different builds, play styles, and challenges.

    I do that a lot. Some issues arise though. As what experimentation is available is limited still. I do some neat builds like Drunk scrapper and Dread chillreaper. But in comparison to what's effective they tend to lack heavily. Can't really do open world on my own as a healer either. That's limited to Strikes, Raids and Fractals.

  • Ryou.2398Ryou.2398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    PvE is mine and many other's preferred game mode. And from that perspective it often seems that PvE is largely ignored when it comes to balance which I feel is a mistake. A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

    Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

    You could tell me to do PvP or WvW more. But those formats are extremely stressful for me. I don't like killing other players, I get no enjoyment from being killed by them myself. I prefer spectating those. And my involvement with spectating is directly linked to my enjoyment of PvE.

    So this post is more personal feels on the issue. From my perspective, PvE is the most important part of the game. And new content is soured for me when the gameplay has stagnated for me. I enjoy a PvE experience that is evolving. And without new skills being added, balance is where I turn to to find my thrills with experimentation and adapting.

    We have been bringing this up for some years now.

    If you want to find the secrets of the universe think in terms of energy frequency and vibration Nikola Tesla.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well, at least it's difficult for sPvP/WvW players to claim that ANet ruin their gamemode with PvE balance.

    The main issue I have with PvE balance isn't the balance of the "P" but the balance of some mechanisms of the "E". And unfortunately, it seem that balancing those mechanisms either isn't high on the priority list of the game developpers or might come with the next x-Pack (which will bring with him it's own share of "issues" anyway).

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, at least it's difficult for sPvP/WvW players to claim that ANet ruin their gamemode with PvE balance.

    The main issue I have with PvE balance isn't the balance of the "P" but the balance of some mechanisms of the "E". And unfortunately, it seem that balancing those mechanisms either isn't high on the priority list of the game developpers or might come with the next x-Pack (which will bring with him it's own share of "issues" anyway).

    I have issues with both sides which I've made statements about over the past year. My suggestions for turret reworks and Minion improvements for example of Profession specific issues.

    As for environmental issues, I agree. Enemies aren't very distinct from one another even across enemy types. And some that are different are radically different.

    Other issues is that there needs to be specific balance design separate from PvP and WvW because the goals of PvE are very different from those formats due to how Enemy AI functions. Guild wars 1 for example had enemies that used player skills and team compositions that forced you to engage with them in a similar manner you would a player so the transition between game modes was much easier. But even that system couldn't function without skill splits and sometimes drastically so.

    Enemies in GW2 are so drastically different from how they are in GW1 arena net's attempts to try and tackle the balance in much the same way is not a good method to do. They need to do much more.

    As a note to that a proper agro system is completely useless for PvP and fairly useless for WvW as well, but this would be incredibly helpful to the diversity of PvE allowing for new sort of control/tank builds to gain in popularity. Arena net has solid support and solid DPS roles for groups but the third pillar of their trinity, the control pillar, is exceptionally weak in PvE. This puts tank builds firmly Into the support role so they need to be doing double duty and it has limited the game to one viable tank.

    Chronomancer doesn't need to also be a tank. They are fantastic as a DPS support and a highly desired elite spec. They could afford to give that role up to the Warriors, Guardians, Scrappers and Reapers.

    Of course that's a rant I've been going on and on about for months now.

    I do agree that Environmental balance could and should be included. Boons on enemies often require them to be cast by that enemy NPC to be applied. This can work if that NPC is a party buffer. However for some enemies this basically leaves them open to a free attack such as for trolls casting to get regen. Regen should be a passive self applied boon on trolls either at all times or as soon as they engage with the players. Likely reapply every 20 or 30 seconds and last that long.

    Beyond just the passive boons, some enemies should have unique buffs associated with their boons. Like a Turtle that always has protection and blocks bonus damage from critical hits while its protected. Or a giant that as long as its might is active its attacks knock back. These might not be the best examples, but they're just an idea to make you think more about engagements with basic enemies.

    I do agree with you. But I'd also go a step further and say PvE needs some more unique mechanics such as a threat system that also requires some unique balance for classes to interact with.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    I do agree with you. But I'd also go a step further and say PvE needs some more unique mechanics such as a threat system that also requires some unique balance for classes to interact with.

    That's where I disagree with you, I do not think a more intensive threat system is needed. I would say, though, that there should be more incentive to use defensive stats than just the threat system (but that's more about encounter design than anything).

    You said it all there:

    Enemies in GW2 are so drastically different from how they are in GW1

    In GW, foes were very close in abilities to what a player could do. In GW2 they could hardly be more different. They do not use classes or skills, they do not rely on boons for efficiency, some conditions work at half efficiency on basic mobs and defiance allow boss/elite mobs to disregard most conditions/hard CC, and, lastly, mobs don't have dodge/endurance management.

    I can understand that CCs and some mechanisms (like projectile reflection) have the potential to trivialize PvE encounters due to limited AI. However, these mechanisms are already taken into account into profession's balance and design.

    This lead PvE to really reward only party support and outgoing damage while pure tanking and the more exotic support become insignificant due to how inefficient they are as dedicated roles.

    Honestly, in my opinion, defiance need to be worked on, stat sets need to be more specialized, reflect effects should at least block incoming projectiles, auras need to be good by themselve (not only good if 3-4 traits are dedicated to them), mobs need to rely more on boons than on their inate attribute and the environment need to learn to use conditions in a healthy way (well that last point might be difficult since it's hardly the case in competitive modes already).

    PS.: I don't push for mobs needing an endurance bar and learning to dodge, because that might be to much to ask. Yet defiance could probably be dependant on endurance and thus vigor/weakness.

  • @Lily.1935 said:
    A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

    This!!!
    And then especially this is an issue:

    Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

    And quite easily to solve, imo. I mean, pushing a new map every few months is interesting for players, don't get me wrong, but only for a short burst indeed. If you combine that with regular and far more often balance / skill/traits updates, replay-ability becomes so much more joyful, imo. Also, there's bound to be far more shifts in group compositions when it comes to the PvE endgame, and I even believe lesser class discrimination eventually, definitely if you push such updates far more often (say, (bi-)monthly for instance).

  • Agrippa Oculus.3726Agrippa Oculus.3726 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

    Then... Change the build? Or maybe even a class if you feel especially daring.
    "I'm not changing my build and then I get bored of my build" -um.. ok. :D

    This comment falls in the exact same category as people who ask for more challenging content, you'd respond with, just wear yellow (rare) gear instead of ascended/legendary ...

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @SinisterSlay.6973 said:
    I like open world PvE unbalanced. More fun that way when you can switch characters and have completely different builds, play styles, and challenges.

    I do that a lot.

    You've literally said that you "keep tackling new content with the same exact build you've been using for 4 years", so not sure how suddenly you're "doing it a lot".

    Some issues arise though. As what experimentation is available is limited still. I do some neat builds like Drunk scrapper and Dread chillreaper. But in comparison to what's effective they tend to lack heavily. Can't really do open world on my own as a healer either. That's limited to Strikes, Raids and Fractals.

    There's still quite a lot of builds per class that easly go through open world. If you keep wanting to play "the most effective" builds in pve, it's not exactly game's fault, but your attitude's.

    @Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:
    Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

    Then... Change the build? Or maybe even a class if you feel especially daring.
    "I'm not changing my build and then I get bored of my build" -um.. ok. :D

    This comment falls in the exact same category as people who ask for more challenging content, you'd respond with, just wear yellow (rare) gear instead of ascended/legendary ...

    No, it's really not. I'm not asking anyone to juggle his equipment to intentionally make everything difficult for himself. But when someone complains about build variety in pve then the game isn't exactly at fault, there's plenty of builds -again, per class-that are doing perfectly fine in that content.
    Sure, "the more the better", I agree, that's why we have a lot more trait/skill choices than slots to use them -but it doesn't seem that's what op is asking for, what op seems to be asking for is some kind of pve meta ferris wheel, which is pretty absurd as any kind of "solution" for... anything, really. Swapping FOTMs also doesn't magically make the number of available/viable buids go up.

  • @Sobx.1758 said:
    No, it's really not.

    You're right, it's worse even. at least with gear brackets (colors), it's only 5/7th (71%) that's subpar. With all possible build iterations ... it's probably more towards 99% that's subpar in PvE, that's how bad the balance is in this game!!!

    I'm not asking anyone to juggle his equipment to intentionally make everything difficult for himself. But when someone complains about build variety in pve then the game isn't exactly at fault, there's plenty of builds -again, per class-that are doing perfectly fine in that content.

    Sure, but exotic or even rare gear is as well! Imo this is the game (at least PvE) with pretty much the worst build diversity out there, definitely if it comes to relative differences between optimal builds. Look, a perfect balance doesnt exist, but for example: if DPS is an important metric (and in this game, it is!), there could be LOADS (and with loads, I mean 25+, the least) of builds out there with only 5% difference max. (in real raid scenarios, not even talking about golem benchmarks here). There isnt, and there never will be with ANet's balancing record. And that's fine, cause well, balancing isnt easy, and such. But they could at least change that sorry state of balance far more often! Which I would find far more interesting, and would keep me much more invested in this game!

    Sure, "the more the better", I agree, that's why we have a lot more trait/skill choices than slots to use them -but it doesn't seem that's what op is asking for, what op seems to be asking for is some kind of pve meta ferris wheel

    I ask for the same! Mainly because ANet either won't or isnt capable of doing real good balancing with a very high build diversity! If one thing we learned after so many years, we should at least know that by now! If the other and only option left means, spicing it up more often, I'm all for it!

    which is pretty absurd as any kind of "solution" for... anything, really. Swapping FOTMs also doesn't magically make the number of available/viable buids go up.

    Over time .... it actually is!!!

  • Black Storm.6974Black Storm.6974 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    You could find another way to keep yourself interested in things (and ArenaNet to keep their players interested), one that don’t involve taking away from others what they enjoy playing. We have not any control over the balance of our characters, the “obvious” consequence is that those changes can cause a lot of frustration among people.

    Fortunately, ArenaNet is quite soft on balance when it comes to PvE. I no longer play PvP and WvW mostly cause of the hard balance those game modes suffer. As many others, I would stop playing the game in case something similar would happen to PvE.

    The soft balance, the possibility to freely take breaks from the game and coming back without feel punished or overwhelmed, are all things “promised” to us by ArenaNet. Taking away that would be an horrible move, just for the enjoyment of few people unable to be respectful of others and the balance they find in life.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    There is technically little reason for Anet to 'balance' PVE and frankly, even though it's not my preferred game mode, I'm happy they have diverted balancing focus to WvW/PVP.

    The choices are there ... EVEN if you heavily restrict yourself to making choices based on performance. Balance efforts are NOT a method to change the game to keep it interesting for you.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2, 2020

    In dragon response missions there is an option to make enemies harder and it gives them a pretty nasty boon table i was actually surprised at how much stronger the trash mobs became when they attack all at the same time with those boons on. I then i have to ask why they were not like that from the start in general.
    Other mechanics like killing one empowers the others were also in effect if i recall which is a good mechanic generally.

    I actually had to take a bit of boon strip/ boon converts for the first time for good reason in pve (outside of fractals)

    That said the most important balance i want them to do in pve is opening more options for support and not letting firebrand and renegade always be the only meta acceptable requirement for 90% of groups.
    i was in a fractal group who wait 30 mins for an alac. the other night and because no one switched the group just dissolved after waiting 30 mins. Like realistically we could have done 1 or 2 of the 3 dailies in that amount of time without an alac but people are so hard stuck on the meta they would rather sit there for half an hour only to make no progress than shift off meta a lil bit.

    As for me on my main necro i run mostly 2 builds my raid setup when i want to do serious damage and my lazy unlimited shroud setup where i want to feel all powerful with minimal effort on my part. This lets me turn my brain off and just play.
    I also just started playing other classes a lil more just for the heck of it.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that PvE balance is an unsolvable optimization problem when you try and look at it from a diversity perspective.

    The game is very diverse the moment the optimization goes away. This is a major issue with raids and time-gated encounters, increasing rage mechanics, etc. It all promotes the same style of play and an optimal solution no matter what. Classes can be super balanced at the top end, but like we observe with reaper - for most groups, the classes that do the job well the most consistently and the easiest tend to do way better in relative terms than their top-end counterparts. It's a constant juggle of which side do you balance for, when everyone talks optimization.

    You also can't just endlessly tweak numbers and have skills deal wildly different amounts of damage across the modes. Consider a new player of a given class that enjoys a certain kit and makes a build around it to use in PvP, to find the skill does only 20% of the damage. They're not going to be receptive to it. The overarching design, with animations and positioning tools and all that, is much bigger.

    If we could all just agree we need major overhauls rather than numeric tweaks because of different levels of DPS performance, both modes would absolutely benefit if we had conversations on what's healthy for PvP design and what's healthy for PvE encounter spaces and small tweaks across a profession's overall margins rather than huge changes to individual skill damage.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Honestly, in my opinion, defiance need to be worked on, stat sets need to be more specialized, reflect effects should at least block incoming projectiles, auras need to be good by themselve (not only good if 3-4 traits are dedicated to them), mobs need to rely more on boons than on their inate attribute and the environment need to learn to use conditions in a healthy way (well that last point might be difficult since it's hardly the case in competitive modes already).

    THIS.

    Everything was well and good before we had Defiance to arbitrarily make encounters more difficult or otherwise prolong them. Vanilla GW2 wasn't a grueling challenge, but it still required either the clever cooperation of a small team (like a standard party) OR a lot of people working together.

    Nowadays, I watch world bosses and random veterans alike fall from DPS and conditions faster than their break bar is taken out -- because it's simply more efficient.

    ANet even had to disable certain items in Fractals and Dungeons simply because they were being used to work around a flawed mechanic:

  • fluffdragon.1523fluffdragon.1523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2020

    On the topic of player-based balance in PvE, I'd say this: specializations were a mistake.

    Back with the old pre April-2014 trait system, we had more traits and more diversity to work with. Sure some were extraneous and a few needed to get folded into baseline to really power up classes and stop having so many builds revolve around a small subset of traits, but that could have been done and the issues addressed, rather than overhauling the entire system. Not to mention we used to have 13 or 14 major traits per trait line compared to 9 now, and lower-tier traits could be slotted into higher brackets!

    Moreover, when we still had attributes from traits, it was fantastic. On my Thief, I used to run 6 Acrobatics for +3000 health, coupled with the old "Practiced Tolerance" that converted 7% of my precision to Vitality -- with 6 Critical Strikes, I had an additional ~1500 health on top of that, outstripping what I can do now with Daredevil and an ascended Marauder's staff.

    In short: we lost the vast majority of our build diversity when attributes were only granted by equipment.

    A Proposal

    I write this next part quite seriously: I'd love to see a return to the old trait system.

    Not a complete reversion, but an adaptation; give us all 5 core trait lines at once, rather than forcing us to pick 3 (even if based on the allocation of trait points, that was the most common build setup). This would also mean it would be easier to add additional traits over time to fill in gaps, rather than forcing the retirement or movement of various traits to satisfy the restriction.

    There's also the fact that it would remove the hard power plateaus from the game when each trait line is now unlocked; start us off on traits at level 11 again, like back at release, and let the accumulation of trait points at each level be the limiting factor (and further incentive to level up -- meaning more potential gem store purchases).

    To solve Elite Specializations, make use of the old dual-class system from Guild Wars 1. For example, a Firebrand would add in the Firebrand trait as a 6th, additional trait line, rather than forcing players to sacrifice one. Instead, it's the allocation of points which makes the compromise: do you take 6 ranks in your new trait line? 4? Maybe you only want 2 ranks. Regardless, it should be up to the players to decide.

    While I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the return of attributes on trait lines, I'm not sure how well it would work -- and likely was removed because of the risk of duplication from Elite specializations. However, with the proposed solution, Elite traitlines could waive extra attributes, serving as a further compromise -- dramatic changes and potentially more powerful passives, in exchange for better stats. Kind of like using Runes in Guild Wars 1, where higher tiers sacrificed more HP, but resulted in their own absurd little build.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2020

    I think there's a valid reason to be gunshy about large swings in PvE balance. A lot of such discussions tend to be "I'm tired of seeing (profession that isn't mine) being dominant in the meta, it's time to nerf it to death so (my profession) can get a chance to shine!" And while that's not entirely invalid, the flipside of it is... it's a real PITA to gear up to ascended the first time and then have the build that you were pushing towards get invalidated by a balance patch. Yes, if you're already established in raids or high-level fractals or whatever, you probably have the resources to make that switch - but the person who's just trying to break into those modes probably doesn't.

    There's also a degree to which there's an expansion coming, and that expansion is likely to be coming with new elite specialisations. That's an opportunity for professions that are currently struggling in the high-end PvE meta to find new roles.

    One thing I'd definitely agree with is that it would be good to see enemy boons playing more of a role in PvE in general - ideally, however, that would be coupled by making sure that every profession has access to boonstrip somewhere so every solo openworlder or story player has the opportunity to adjust their build to deal with enemy boons.

  • I don’t like the idea of adding in more random boons in PvE just to add some half-baked interaction with enemies. Only protection and retaliation are of any worth - and even then, a large number of builds can just power through without caring (whilst some others are invalidated by retal lol). Something that is also overlooked is how certain necro and especially mesmer builds cannot simply ignore boons as easily, hence the reasoning for their generous access to boonstrip options in the first place. For example, the boonsplurge in DRM CMs does not include protection and, because it is almost never worthwhile to boonstrip trash mobs, it sticks a random finger in power necro/mesmer’s offensive capabilities (but reaper remains useful for its ez trash clearing capability).

    Unbeknownst to many (as it would it seem), there has already been boonplay in PvE ever since PoF, and this amount is fine and really does not need to be increased.

    I see no need to make enemies increasingly threatening (without a clear tradeoff) either, especially when the aim is to make singular trash mobs unnecessarily ‘challenging’. Anet has designed mobs such that they fulfil ‘roles’; one mob might be melee and tankier, another ranged and applies a significant debuff, and another which might grant important boons. These mobs become exponentially effective when grouped together, but are ofc ineffective when subjected to approaches that are used to make the encounter easier, such as dealing with the mobs one by one, pulling/disabling them together with mount engage and bursting them down quickly, etc. And the game does occasionally have very interesting ‘singular’ mobs - awakened canids, hydra, djinn, dominion crushers... only that they aren’t spammed across the entire map/instance for certain reasons.

    And then you have to find some balance between faceroll reaper and not-trailblazer melee-locked weaver, there’s evidently some issues there.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, PoF has the Awakened that pop up Protection and so on. Still, I think there's potential value in having more boonplay in general, and in some ways it can help with making trashmobs somewhat threatening without doing so in an annoying way. For instance, most PvE mobs are set up so that they either have boons or they don't - you don't see many instances of PvE mobs steadily mightstacking during a fight, for instance. This could allow them to have enemies that are relatively nonthreatening early in a fight (unlike those darned pocket raptors which can down you in seconds if a pack or two of them catch you by surprise due to that insane flanking damage they do), but can build up to become a threat if you let them. But if you boonstrip them, you reset that counter. Drop a Well of Corruption or a Null Field or the like on them, and you can keep that counter on 0 for several seconds. This could make for mobs that are more fun to fight, because they're not a cakewalk, but they're also not dishing out big damage right from the word go, and you don't get the issue you can get in some PoF regions where you're fighting one dangerous opponent and then another wanders in and drops some big damage effects on you before you can react (this happens a lot with the djinn bottle in Crystal Oasis with the hydra wandering nearby, for instance).

    Even in PoF, boons are something you generally only really notice against specific mobs. Now compare that to any competitive mode, where it's virtually guaranteed that any opponent you're facing is going to have some boons. There's a pretty big disconnect there. It might not be one desirable to make PvE as boon-heavy as PvP, but it would be nice for boonstrip and boonsteal to be more useful in PvE without relying on shortcuts like "skill does extra damage to targets without boons" or "skill will grant you Quickness even if the target has no boons to steal." The reason we HAVE conditional modifiers like that is because those skills weren't useful enough in PvE without them.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2020

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Yeah, PoF has the Awakened that pop up Protection and so on. Still, I think there's potential value in having more boonplay in general, and in some ways it can help with making trashmobs somewhat threatening without doing so in an annoying way. For instance, most PvE mobs are set up so that they either have boons or they don't - you don't see many instances of PvE mobs steadily mightstacking during a fight, for instance. This could allow them to have enemies that are relatively nonthreatening early in a fight (unlike those darned pocket raptors which can down you in seconds if a pack or two of them catch you by surprise due to that insane flanking damage they do), but can build up to become a threat if you let them. But if you boonstrip them, you reset that counter. Drop a Well of Corruption or a Null Field or the like on them, and you can keep that counter on 0 for several seconds. This could make for mobs that are more fun to fight, because they're not a cakewalk, but they're also not dishing out big damage right from the word go, and you don't get the issue you can get in some PoF regions where you're fighting one dangerous opponent and then another wanders in and drops some big damage effects on you before you can react (this happens a lot with the djinn bottle in Crystal Oasis with the hydra wandering nearby, for instance).

    Even in PoF, boons are something you generally only really notice against specific mobs. Now compare that to any competitive mode, where it's virtually guaranteed that any opponent you're facing is going to have some boons. There's a pretty big disconnect there. It might not be one desirable to make PvE as boon-heavy as PvP, but it would be nice for boonstrip and boonsteal to be more useful in PvE without relying on shortcuts like "skill does extra damage to targets without boons" or "skill will grant you Quickness even if the target has no boons to steal." The reason we HAVE conditional modifiers like that is because those skills weren't useful enough in PvE without them.

    It's hard to incentivize any sort of boonstripping in PvE as:

    • All boons besides Protection and Retaliation are worthless on mobs in PvE
    • Boonstripping trashmobs is never worthwhile

    Boonplay has little impact on PvE enemies. A properly timed boonstrip is powerful in PvP, but does not serve as much use in PvE not (only) because there are no boons, but because stripping them has little to no impact if it does not include prot or retal. It is important to notice this when observing these 'shortcuts' since it allows skills and traits to double up and provide additional/different effects to still have a use in PvE where boonstripping is rarely impactful.

    Adding in boons now does nothing other than to devalue these 'shortcuts' and make them useless again.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lily.1935 said:
    PvE is mine and many other's preferred game mode. And from that perspective it often seems that PvE is largely ignored when it comes to balance which I feel is a mistake. A lot of classes under preform and the dominant builds tend to stay dominant for years. This creates a rather stale format. Although some like the consistency of it never or rarely changing, I don't hold that position at all.

    Tackling new content with the same exact build I've been using for 4 years leads to long periods of fatigue with the game and short bursts of interest.

    You could tell me to do PvP or WvW more. But those formats are extremely stressful for me. I don't like killing other players, I get no enjoyment from being killed by them myself. I prefer spectating those. And my involvement with spectating is directly linked to my enjoyment of PvE.

    So this post is more personal feels on the issue. From my perspective, PvE is the most important part of the game. And new content is soured for me when the gameplay has stagnated for me. I enjoy a PvE experience that is evolving. And without new skills being added, balance is where I turn to to find my thrills with experimentation and adapting.

    Are you trying to say that wvw/pvp are balanced?
    Every single gamemode needs better balancing. Anet is neglecting balance issues since forever in gw2.

  • When you use roaming builds to play pve and find out how player-counter builds obliterate mobs without even going 'full dps' or something lol.

  • I find I get my diversity fix in PvE by playing different professions. I have power porfessions and condition professions. When I get bored of one I switch to the other. Playing your alts really does mix things up and can keep your interest for a few hours more.

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭

    I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.
    It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?
    Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?
    On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.
    My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lucio.4190 said:
    I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.
    It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?
    Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?
    On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.
    My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

    Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @scorekeeper.6524 said:
    I find I get my diversity fix in PvE by playing different professions. I have power porfessions and condition professions. When I get bored of one I switch to the other. Playing your alts really does mix things up and can keep your interest for a few hours more.

    Only lasts so long. And not long enough to satisfy the hunger for new builds before stagnation sets in. It also doesn't offer more experimentation as it requires deep dedication to the class to figure that out and even if you get to that point what is most effective is solved. Leaving you wanting. At least it's that way for me

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They did some work on old warrior OH mace and sw skills 9? months ago?

    They need a lot more of that.

    Anet needs a balance lead who believes that they can get balance and builds better if they invest some time.

  • Lucio.4190Lucio.4190 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 24, 2020

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Lucio.4190 said:
    I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.
    It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?
    Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?
    On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.
    My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

    Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

    Sorry, I didn't mean that you did. Some posts in this discussion says that ANet doesn't care and I see the same in other threads too. I also get the feeling that's the common opinion on this forum, that lots of complaints and threads have been written in the subject and nothing has happened.
    I don't know. Maybe too much happened instead?

    I apologize for the way I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to sound like I didn't agree.
    I play a lot of PvE and sometimes I feel like it's impossible to get further without help. When I first arrived in the Maguuma jungle, It was a lot harder than PoF or central Tyria and it took me a while before rearranging my gear and skills. It's a lot easier now after I've learned how to beat the monsters.

    I agree that there needs some changes on the mechanic, on all game modes. I'm just not sure about how it should be changed and what a good change is.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 25, 2020

    @Lucio.4190 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Lucio.4190 said:
    I wonder if accusing ANet for not caring about the balance, may not be fair.
    It seems to me like they do care, because they've tried several times but they've listened to wrong people and had a weird way of rebalancing the game... or, they may know something that we don't? Some combinations we haven't tried yet or a build we have underestimated?
    Something we thought was worthless and haven't shown any interest in trying?
    On the other hand, the game has existed for 9 years and there's always someone that reads and investigates everything.
    My point? I actually have no idea what my point is, just throwing some questions.

    Wait. When did I say they didn't care? I don't think I mentioned anything about caring or not.

    Sorry, I didn't mean that you did. Some posts in this discussion says that ANet doesn't care and I see the same in other threads too. I also get the feeling that's the common opinion on this forum, that lots of complaints and threads have been written in the subject and nothing has happened.
    I don't know. Maybe too much happened instead?

    I apologize for the way I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to sound like I didn't agree.
    I play a lot of PvE and sometimes I feel like it's impossible to get further without help. When I first arrived in the Maguuma jungle, It was a lot harder than PoF or central Tyria and it took me a while before rearranging my gear and skills. It's a lot easier now after I've learned how to beat the monsters.

    I agree that there needs some changes on the mechanic, on all game modes. I'm just not sure about how it should be changed and what a good change is.

    It's Alright.

    I have ideas. I do think Arena net needs to rebalance old content like dungeons to act as a launch board into fractals and raids and to require them to progress in the personal story but that's a different discuss.

    I'm not as big on rebalancing open world too much, maybe better scaling for Condi damage and the ferocity changes they did some years ago but beyond that I wouldn't go much further.

    For classes, which is what this post is primarily about, I'd like to see more viable builds and team compositions in the endgame and mid game content. I do think the balance needs to be split between PvP and PvE a lot more than it is due to just how drastically different mobs interact with players vs how players interact with players.

    Core classes shouldn't be more than 10% behind their elite specs when it comes to DPS builds or other similar builds the elite spec might run although there is nothing wrong with elite specs having entirely unique roles from their core and I would still encourage that. Although percentages is a bit of an arbitrary thing. There are some classes that lag way behind their elites such as necromancer and thief.

    Edit: I realize that "its not a problem" is a phrase that both can be interpreted as dismissing a point or as saying "its alright" or "You don't have to worry about it". My intention was to say that its alright, not to be dismissive. So I changed it, sorry, language can be difficult.