The Dec 1st balance patch has a lot of misses on it and should probably just be reverted.

This patch probably the worst balance patch we have seen in a while. Way too many swings and a miss. Undernerfs, overnerfs, etc.

Elementalist:Pointless changes that have no real impact. Shock aura ignored. Instant cast skills ignored.

Engineer:The real problem with explosive entrance, as has been pointed out many times before, is that flashbang effectively turns it into a form of attacking-while-defending, which is a game design element that should not exist on passive skills period and turns everything into a must-dodge. Overnerfing everything else is just more nerfing around the problem instead of nerfing the problem. The only truly good idea here is reducing the coefficient of explosive entrance, but it's still not addressing the correct things very well. When flashbang finally gets removed from the game, the spec will reveal itself to be a paper-tiger.

Guardian:None of these skills are OP in WvW, except maybe SOJ. And the real problem with SOJ is that when traited it applies burning on every single hit while also having so many charges that the skill effectively has no cooldown- this is a problem in both WvW and PvP. Lowering the coefficient does basically nothing. Rest of these changes are pointless overnerfs.

Necromancer:Meaningless changes that only impact lower-skilled players. Pointless overnerfs. Also no changes to issues like barrier spam on scourge or passive sustain issues.

Revenant:Some of these nerfs make sense, others are an overnerf. For instance, lowering the duration on the stability of jalis road makes sense, but increasing the cooldown is pointless ( You generally only use this skill once per swap anyways so an increase to 15 seconds is a moot point ). The sustain on Kalla was a bit too high, but also nerfing SR along with it is an overnerf. If anything, SR could have actually used a buff and Kalla could have been nerfed harder. Also, hammer is a trash tier weapon when used against a skilled player. If it needs to be nerfed in WvW to appease the lesser-skilled zerg crowd, it would be better to just rework/redesign Rev Hammer so that it isn't so strong against new players while also being so useless against more experienced players.

Thief:Ooooookaaaaay this might be the biggest example of nerfing the wrong things in the patch. SB5 is a very strong skill, but in a way it sort of HAS to be good because it's the main thing that lets thieves play their role. Making it cost 8i puts thief in a rough patch where they are actually being encouraged to play their role incorrectly / stay in fights when they shouldn't. The real issue with thief isn't even an issue with thief, and is with reveal-on-hit being a bad mechanic. Shadow arts wasn't even touched this patch so...yeah. Bad change. Nerfing the two strongest stolen skills kind of makes sense, but that SB5 change is yet another example of nerfing around problems instead of fixing problems. Thief mechanics are busted, thief numbers are not.

Warrior:Nerfing shoutbunker while buffing MMR may actually be the least-bad thing about the entire patch. Warriors should be encouraged to choose different lines for their sustain. But did Break enchantments really need that change in WvW?

Removal of celestial: Again, the problem with just removing amulets is that it causes the meta in WvW and PvP to drift too much. This is going to make skill-design even harder to balance in the long run.

Overall: It just doesn't look like a good patch. Too many wrong-targets that will just make the game less interesting tbh.

Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:This patch probably the worst balance patch we have seen in a while. Way too many swings and a miss. Undernerfs, overnerfs, etc.

Engineer:The real problem with explosive entrance, as has been pointed out many times before, is that flashbang effectively turns it into a form of attacking-while-defending, which is a game design element that should not exist on passive skills period and turns everything into a must-dodge. Overnerfing everything else is just more nerfing around the problem instead of nerfing the problem. The only truly good idea here is reducing the coefficient of explosive entrance, but it's still not addressing the correct things very well. When flashbang finally gets removed from the game, the spec will reveal itself to be a paper-tiger.

Flashbang isnt the only issue with EE though, big boomer is literally a 10% damage increase if you land an attack with nades or EE and holo right now is in a better position than before as it allows other dps to come forward.

Necromancer:Meaningless changes that only impact lower-skilled players. Pointless overnerfs. Also no changes to issues like barrier spam on scourge or passive sustain issues.

There is literally no issue with necro rn other than maybe lich or focus 5. If scourge has mass barrier then it lacks damage its a fair trade.

Revenant:Some of these nerfs make sense, others are an overnerf. For instance, lowering the duration on the stability of jalis road makes sense, but increasing the cooldown is pointless ( You generally only use this skill once per swap anyways so an increase to 15 seconds is a moot point ). The sustain on Kalla was a bit too high, but also nerfing SR along with it is an overnerf. If anything, SR could have actually used a buff and Kalla could have been nerfed harder. Also, hammer is a trash tier weapon when used against a skilled player. If it needs to be nerfed in WvW to appease the lesser-skilled zerg crowd, it would be better to just rework/redesign Rev Hammer so that it isn't so strong against new players while also being so useless against more experienced players.

Renegade is still surprisingly strong with kalla and the road (without CD nerf) would still provide perma stab so it was a good nerf and now punishes players who cant play it correctly, kalla legend was absurdly dumb and got a good enough nerf to allow other sidenoders to be viable while also letting kalla be strong, there is no issue (other than the daze spirit).

Thief:Ooooookaaaaay this might be the biggest example of nerfing the wrong things in the patch. SB5 is a very strong skill, but in a way it sort of HAS to be good because it's the main thing that lets thieves play their role. Making it cost 8i puts thief in a rough patch where they are actually being encouraged to play their role incorrectly / stay in fights when they shouldn't. The real issue with thief isn't even an issue with thief, and is with reveal-on-hit being a bad mechanic. Shadow arts wasn't even touched this patch so...yeah. Bad change. Nerfing the two strongest stolen skills kind of makes sense, but that SB5 change is yet another example of nerfing around problems instead of fixing problems. Thief mechanics are busted, thief numbers are not.

This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine. SA was not the main issue with thief as daredevil gave it damage reduction on 3 seperate traits as well as weakness spam and increased HP which everyone seems to ignore. DA thief is actually stronger than SA in +1 and many thieves started playing it because of this. Thief was undernerfed.

Warrior:Nerfing shoutbunker while buffing MMR may actually be the least-bad thing about the entire patch. Warriors should be encouraged to choose different lines for their sustain. But did Break enchantments really need that change in WvW?

I personally dislike the nerf on war as its still near unkillable and is still the best support.

Removal of celestial: Again, the problem with just removing amulets is that it causes the meta in WvW and PvP to drift too much. This is going to make skill-design even harder to balance in the long run.

This was a good choice, celestial only encourged bunkers or meme builds with 0 idea of pressure or fast gameplay and bunkering is just straight up unhealthy as we have seen over and over.

Overall: It just doesn't look like a good patch. Too many wrong-targets that will just make the game less interesting tbh.

This patch was literally the best one we have had since feb and how can this make it less interesting? before holo/rene were needed now they have been enrfed its opened up multiple other classes to be viable.

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

plasma is still going to be OP as fuck

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

You can rupt it so if you are enough good to press a skill while thief is casting plasma it has counter play.

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:Elementalist:Pointless changes that have no real impact. Shock aura ignored. Instant cast skills ignored.elem stay elem. ok

Engineer:The real problem with explosive entrance, as has been pointed out many times before, is that flashbang effectively turns it into a form of attacking-while-defending,engi is skills piano, so one more or one less don't have big impact

Guardian:None of these skills are OP in WvW, except maybe SOJ.guardian = traps. Traps is fun.

Necromancer:Meaningless changes that only impact lower-skilled players.this is ok. Any nerf or boost should impact only lower-skilled players. Also necro by name should be a little bit sronger than others.

Revenant:road of stability and hammer on wvw is visite card for rev, so any nerf that skill very strange

Thief:Ooooookaaaaay this might be the biggest example of nerfing the wrong things in the patch. SB5 is a very strong skill, but in a way it sort of HAS to be good because it's the main thing that lets thieves play their role.yes, that true. Or we should now wait more bunker thiefs on middle?

Warrior:Nerfing shoutbunker while buffing MMR may actually be the least-bad thing about the entire patch. Warriors should be encouraged to choose different lines for their sustain. But did Break enchantments really need that change in WvW?gold words..

Removal of celestial:so now my thief not have amulet .. 5 also dissapear .. I am already on silver but any amulet remove looks very strange for me ..

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

yes, assuming thief is not good enough to hide it behind los/stealth/teleport

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

yeah but having literally 5k range from mobility and able to get to the other side of the map in less than 10 seconds while having stealth for about a min permanently AND gatekeeping squishy sidenoders... thats too much. Its a hit and run class which should be easy to kill but it has damage reduction traits which contradicts it, both its mobility AND damage reduction shouldve been nerfed so they done 50% of it.

Couldn't disagree more. The patch was spot on except that they ignored purity of purpose and p/d condi thief in wvw. But condi nerfs in wvw are always something that could be discussed endlessly as sigil of cleansing is extremely strong there. So it's basically only purity of purpose.

Power guardian was ridiculous. Staff is a support weapon and outdamaged other damage dealers on top of the support. Imagine necro marks would deal 5 to 10k damage.

Regarding necro changes: Even as a necro player I can accept the fact that well of darkness was doing too much at once and needed its damage shaved to become reduced to what it is meant to be: a utility well.

That said: Sustain is generally a problem in wvw - class wide. Nothing you could fix with a "normal" balance patch. We are at a point where every class can build for unkillability in smallscale.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

Thief was not only gatekeeping many sidenoders it did in general gatekeeping many more squisher buildsThe high mobility with the stealth and still. Decent dmg on SA you had always the chance to pick up some squishy in a fight.It was not rly punishable thx to its high survivalability, but punished most other roamer builds

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

Yeah thats why im not entirely happy with the thief nerfs, they took some mobility away which is really good but they didnt touch SA or the damage reduction traits in DD which were the main source of it surviving. Hopefully something will be done about it soon

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Terrorhuz.4695 said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

Stealth is ruptable too , teleport like using shadow step to cast plasma? Xd , i saw helseth consistent winning vs good thieves , im not saying mesmer>thief but you have a very decent counterplay after nerfs

@Kachros.4751 said:yeah but having literally 5k range from mobility and able to get to the other side of the map in less than 10 seconds while having stealth for about a min permanently AND gatekeeping squishy sidenoders... thats too much.this is idea of domination of speed and versus. So for me 25k range from mobility, and run map twice per 8 seconds is valid and normal state.Also for me valid one shot guard trap, valid poison and shroud clouds from necro .. I want see differences between classes, not only few types of weapon and some animation.

Its a hit and run class which should be easy to kill but it has damage reduction traits which contradicts it, both its mobility AND damage reduction shouldve been nerfed so they done 50% of it.?? and this is great. We can only PROUND what we have that, and ask more powerful because otherwise we will get same one class with different animation.

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Terrorhuz.4695" said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

its called being efficient, when you stealth ( which you WILL do as thief ) you might as well use plasma before engaging, same thing with shadowstep, if you get CC'ed and have to shadowstep, you might as well plasma before going back in.I also watched helseth, and against good thiefs best he does is puts some pressure before he runs away to kite spots, there is no " winning ", unless not losing is counted as a win, but even then thief fucks off, and gangbangs your team somewhere else with the plasma you "give" it.I played AT against thiefs, if you make mistake you die, if they make mistake they almost die and fuck off, and ~20s later you will hear on comms someone complain that thief with fucking plasma ganked them :D

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@wevh.2903 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Terrorhuz.4695" said:Can't hear you, won't hear you, I'm listening to the cries of a hundred thousand thiefs carried by plasma being yeeted back to the dust

Without binding powder you can rupt thief stealth with mantra , you cant simply stealth in front of a mesmer or use health. Helsenth didnt run to kiting spots unless needed , also like u said about breaking los mes can abuse kiting spots too. Right now i think thief v mesmer is a very fair match .

They didn't revert the absolutely disastrous february megapatch. What makes you think theyre going to revert this one? Sadly their balance team doesnt own up to mistake. It will keep doubling and tripling down on them instead. Its sad really, I still think GW2 is the best PvP MMO we have right now, but after they killed my favourite build for good just because they cant even consider collateral damage, well frankly I see no reason to ever play PvP again.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

Yeah but that Thief isn't that mobile anymore is already a big thing for sidenoders, on many maps you can't rly leave close when the Thief is in mid or not visible.This should give already way more room to do some Stuff

ppl gotta understand that the main reason thief has been a mes counter isnt just plasma its bcs:

1. thief gets open
2. mes tries to attack back
3. thief dodges/ports away and resets b4 mes can get out its slow dmg
4. mes has bad resustain (on meta builds) so cant reset quickly so thief doesnt need to keep up consistent pressure
5. theif gets another open
6. repeatdeadeye and sd are the best examples of this, dp is more managableand the reason good condi mirage like helseth can kill thief is because it does super quick counterattack (sw3 +jaunt + f2) and has some aoe pressure (axe 2), unlike something like mirror blade + mindwrack or trying to summon a phantasmal berserker

Thief:Ooooookaaaaay this might be the biggest example of nerfing the wrong things in the patch. SB5 is a very strong skill, but in a way it sort of HAS to be good because it's the main thing that lets thieves play their role. Making it cost 8i puts thief in a rough patch where they are actually being encouraged to play their role incorrectly / stay in fights when they shouldn't. The real issue with thief isn't even an issue with thief, and is with reveal-on-hit being a bad mechanic. Shadow arts wasn't even touched this patch so...yeah. Bad change. Nerfing the two strongest stolen skills kind of makes sense, but that SB5 change is yet another example of nerfing around problems instead of fixing problems. Thief mechanics are busted, thief numbers are not.

Which stolen skill from thief is actually usefull? orb kinda was the only one......sure u hit 3.5k a revenant that has double heal skill, one of which actually turns dmg input into healing...jmmmm....is it un fair to time a boon like resistanse vs a mirage that spams 12 condis over u in 3 seconds? how is it exactly overpowered thiefs orb vs that crap? oh, lets say its a one shot core mesmer, sure....u made a good use of the orb you couldnt even steal...or wait...can i use my orb after a gravity well? or will I be already death before i can even think of stealing?

and...i could keep on but i dont really think devs know how to read

@Kachros.4751 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

This was big yikes to read. Thief being hit and run but easy to kill means they aren't allowed to fight. DD is supposed to give thief the option to have a dueling playstyle but staff has been nerfed into irrelevance and now you want to nerf the pitiful damage reduction they get? You know a thief still dies if they try to actually fight something, right? That's why they run.

Also lol 1 minute permanent stealth uptime. What a joke.

@shadowmaster.5370

Not all Revenants are Herald and Essence Sap can hit up to 6k in some instances on Heavy Armor, think about what it can do on Light Armor, finally it also applies 3 seconds of slow per Sap rather than the tooltip indicated 1 second.

Acting like Resistance is free to be had on Revenant when it costs damage to have it, you can't be offensive and defensive at the same time without Core and it's easy to tell when you should be boon rip a Revenant that uses Core.

@Master Ketsu.4569

Typical overnerf, they always do that if you hadn't noticed. Nerfing the content and making the content less available.

I don't personally agree with the 1 Stability second pulse as the game is full on clunk with 1 second intervals, but I would agree with it being 2 seconds like before. People can always remove stab on CC to effectively nullify the skill so I don't see why it's a good thing to encourage players to CC someone in the middle of the road because you can't have 2 stacks for defending your area of the skill that's being pushed now.

Also for those who don't know, pulsing means that it'll be always the first boon to be stripped which made the skill even weaker in regards to counters, Revocation is one of the most powerful sigils against Jalis and it's often used.

The 15 seconds is a mixed feeling and even if played optimally, I tend to come back on Jalis while still on CD with it, happens a lot on chill too now so it is an effective nerf in most cases but an overnerf given the boon duration nerf.

In overall, good ideas but bad applications for Revenant.

I couldn't be further on point for the trait nerfs as well with Soulcleave once again, they're making it overall worst instead of fixing the broken aspect of not having an interval.

@Shao.7236 every light armor in this game is a f***** tank: necro? tank; mesmer? tank; elementalist?...do i really need to answer?that 6k potential depends on dodging, 1.5 s casting, being less than 600 units from target....revenant has both ACTIVE and PASSIVE ( PASSIVE!!!!!) ways to block or evade that damage. while thief struggles to get some positioning to try send u an stone, it already has 20 stacks of torment out of 3 skills combo....is it any how fair?

when i talked about resistance i was also talking about mesmer stolen skill (a.k.a. orb) 1 second resistance supports thief for exactly 1 pulse of condition damage, the other 10 pulses under confusion, bleeding, burning and torment just makes it a meme utility.

@shadowmaster.5370 said:@Shao.7236 every light armor in this game is a f***** tank: necro? tank; mesmer? tank; elementalist?...do i really need to answer?that 6k potential depends on dodging, 1.5 s casting, being less than 600 units from target....revenant has both ACTIVE and PASSIVE ( PASSIVE!!!!!) ways to block or evade that damage. while thief struggles to get some positioning to try send u an stone, it already has 20 stacks of torment out of 3 skills combo....is it any how fair?

when i talked about resistance i was also talking about mesmer stolen skill (a.k.a. orb) 1 second resistance supports thief for exactly 1 pulse of condition damage, the other 10 pulses under confusion, bleeding, burning and torment just makes it a meme utility.That's the best, you think that's a meme utility? How about looking at all of Revenant traits that got reduced to 1 second? You have the possibility to have 3 dodges without utility WITH just as much Resistance not counting the other boons without having to invest Energy for offense. You'll be fine.

@Kachros.4751 said:

@Avatar.3568 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:

@lare.5129 said:

@Kachros.4751 said:This was... highly questionable to read, the nerf thief got was good but wasnt enough. If they left shortbow 5 as it is you can get 2.7k range from spamming it in 2 seconds which isnt remotely fine.this is concept question .. We talk not about value, we talk about mobility, stealth, and damage domination vs another .. Thats should be present. Why ? Because this is thief.By that concept necro should have conditions and minions, guard - powerful traps, and etc ..

I'm actually convinced you won't be happy until Thief is literally unplayable. No, they can't go 2700 range with just two IA's. Why? It has 900 range with (prepatch) 6 ini. Thief has BASE 12 ini but since Trickery is mandatory it gets +3 for a max of 15. 900+900=1800 for 12 ini with 3 ini left forcing the thief to wait a few seconds to do another one which would THEN be a total of 2700 range.

Your calculation is hyperbolic and not in a satirical manner for comedic effect (unless that's actually your intention then well done) and serves only as propoganda to get thief nerfed into oblivion and I'm guessing by your pink quaggan icon you play Mesmer which makes since because thief counters mesmers due simply to the fact that thieves can stealth and render clones useless.

I see your scheme. >: l

Lol but for real you're just wrong from a numerical standpoint and even moreso now that the cost was increased to 8 so it can only be used once WITHOUT waiting for ini regen and all of these hypothetical scenarios do NOT factor in if the thief has used any initiative for engaging/bursting at all which is only likely part of the time while roaming solo in between points while not using any initiative for stealth access.

You even teef, broh?