Re-examine the sentry and tower marked debuff.

Now that thief has had it's escape potential blunted (SB5 nerf) it's time to review this "mechanic." Thief survivability needs review. This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive. Apparently the only valid way of existing in combat is blocking, so can we get an anti-block aura around objectives? Maybe an anti-lifeforce aura too? Oh, how about an anti-AI pet aura for clones and ranger pets? Just some good ideas.

Yea, marked around towers and sentries is way too anti-roam and anti-gank. The duration from sentries and radius of both should be reduced.

It shouldn't activate on uncontested objectives either as the watchtowers spotting passer bys makes the maps too cramped and unstrategical.

I could hand you my necro wishlist, what I'd like to have to compensation the lack of stability, blocks, invuln, nerfs, nerfs, nerfs. Thiefs still have their perma stealth to escape. And much more options.

I think it is good as it is. People can just play something else than thief. Or they can go in groups. This is WvW. Not thieves game. Already too easy to kill dolyaks and cap camps - if not permanently keeps an eye on them and defends.

The problem is not stealth or dodge or teleport, the problem is do it all at same time with very little investment, and that comparation with lifeforce is just laughble, but tbf marked debuff should counter only stealth and not mark everyone, or myb fix the real problem that is perma stealth and remove this lazy sheet "solution".

any1 aproving this is probably in Axis ngl

tbh in the last 6 months I may have seen 2 "perma stealth" thieves (both DPS DE's). They have to heavily invest in stealth that 1 stealth trap and they are useless so have to run. I run into a lot of thieves as I typically solo roam (I see slightly more rangers/guardians than thieves now a days) so it may be server dependent.

As far as the sentry is concerned, they weren't put there specifically for thieves but to mark any invader on the map so just targeting thieves/stealthed opponents would be more of a punishment for any player non stealthed/no access to stealth than anything, and would impact response times for defending objectives as there would be no more tell, thus it benefits the attackers (whom could be a gaggle of thieves but of they didnt stealth at the sentry it makes your "counter" very pointless).

Speaking of pointless, most thieves don't even need to stealth when fighting sentries so that kind of change would be double pointless.

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:tbh in the last 6 months I may have seen 2 "perma stealth" thieves (both DPS DE's). They have to heavily invest in stealth that 1 stealth trap and they are useless so have to run. I run into a lot of thieves as I typically solo roam (I see slightly more rangers/guardians than thieves now a days) so it may be server dependent.

No matter how many u see the perma stealth still theres, nd this is a problem.

As far as the sentry is concerned, they weren't put there specifically for thieves but to mark any invader on the map so just targeting thieves/stealthed opponents would be more of a punishment for any player non stealthed/no access to stealth than anything, and would impact response times for defending objectives as there would be no more tell, thus it benefits the attackers (whom could be a gaggle of thieves but of they didnt stealth at the sentry it makes your "counter" very pointless).

So it just here to make roaming more dificult and to kill the scout role, if u dont stealth at the sentry i guess it does his job, so not pointless.

Speaking of pointless, most thieves don't even need to stealth when fighting sentries so that kind of change would be double pointless.

Ifs theres no player only npcs u can stealth all u want, but if theres a player to fight it would do the job, u can still stealth not only permanently, im not against thives or any class im against sheet lazy mechanics.

Think how bad mesmer is in these situations. Mesmer can't spam evade and teleport 24/7 like thief.

I mained mesmer for nearly 6 years. Mes has plenty of survivability and a wonderful defensive rotation. Thief has dodges and stealth. That's it. That being said Mirage needs its dodge back. Just another idiotic decision CMC was fed by the "Welcome to PvP" discord. He just does what they clique there says for the most part. Balancing for the wintraders at the top.

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:I mained mesmer for nearly 6 years. Mes has plenty of survivability and a wonderful defensive rotation. Thief has dodges and stealth. That's it. That being said Mirage needs its dodge back. Just another idiotic decision CMC was fed by the "Welcome to PvP" discord. He just does what they clique there says for the most part. Balancing for the wintraders at the top.

This.I agree the revealed aspect should be removed. It's like taking the armor off a warrior for several thief builds, and some mesmers. Also it does nothing for perma stealth since they are roaming at that point and not fighting, so they just go around... but it limits where they and many other thieves can even fight.

How about this...we remove stealth from the game. Thieves can have their evades, Mes the clones, etc. just no more stealth.

Because, that's what this is about. TC 'mained mesmer for 6 years' most likely because of the ability to shatter bomb from stealth, the massive broken condi's from clones for years, etc. Then mesmer got adjusted / nerfed so moved on to thief...because of stealth and ability to run away.

Essentially if you are dying to necros and ranger pets you have bigger L2P issues. For one, we'd like a vertical teleport like thief has, which is invaluable in WvW.

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:How about this...we remove stealth from the game. Thieves can have their evades, Mes the clones, etc. just no more stealth.

Because, that's what this is about. TC 'mained mesmer for 6 years' most likely because of the ability to shatter bomb from stealth, the massive broken condi's from clones for years, etc. Then mesmer got adjusted / nerfed so moved on to thief...because of stealth and ability to run away.

Essentially if you are dying to necros and ranger pets you have bigger L2P issues. For one, we'd like a vertical teleport like thief has, which is invaluable in WvW.

Mmm, there used to be times in GW2 when most viable thief builds were all about evades and dodges (condi dd d/d and s/d) - community screamed bloody murder so now we are back to stealth builds. I personally would love to have support build on thief so we don't get instantly kicked from zergs for simply playing the class. Maybe then people will also stop complain so much about the class that has nothing else to offer besides being annoying stealthy/evading fly.

@Gotejjeken.1267 said:How about this...we remove stealth from the game. Thieves can have their evades, Mes the clones, etc. just no more stealth.

Because, that's what this is about. TC 'mained mesmer for 6 years' most likely because of the ability to shatter bomb from stealth, the massive broken condi's from clones for years, etc. Then mesmer got adjusted / nerfed so moved on to thief...because of stealth and ability to run away.

Essentially if you are dying to necros and ranger pets you have bigger L2P issues. For one, we'd like a vertical teleport like thief has, which is invaluable in WvW.

It's more that I like Trickster archetypes and mobility... something ripped away from mes. Tell me more about the high skill classes like Guard, Necro, and your lovely Ranger. How long do you think someone would have to practice to be effective on those vs a thief or mes? No, thief and mes are so faceroll that's why everyone plays them. Definitely not an ass load more rangers, guards and necros. Cause the community plays what's effective.

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Thats not true. People dont hate these mechanics. People hate, that thief has all of them...

I would love to see the tower/supply mechanics go away. However, in recent discussions some Thief mains have suggested that a change like this would be enough, I remain unconvinced so it will be interesting to see what this change will achieve over time. If they are right I am not going to be unhappy but I also do not belive this was ever an issue even if SB initiative costs will impact overall iniative management to some degree. The fact that we need those on-top mechanics suggests that there are balance issues and when we can take them away it would suggest that balance is in more of a managable ballpark.

I still believe the the real issue with the dominance of Thief as a solo-small roamer in WvW (and as such unlike sPvP or objective-raiding aspects of WvW) is how so many things can be put into the same bag and get the flexibility for free and how that in turn scales with their unique resource system. Like Suchos says above (though I presume he's talking more about specific mechanics and I'm speaking more about the combination of weapons/initiative with utilities and traits), it is the combination of these things that has just scaled away to extreme proportions on things that are very valuable when roaming.

Roaming itself obivously has a bit of an obscure role in the game and the mode at large, however, it is something alot of new players are subjected to as they enter the mode so it is not good to see such extreme imbalance there and it is not good to see such punishing gameplay available there and it is also something that is problematic for old players in situations that promotes the mode on various venues (eg., streamers, Youtubers etc.) or how it can be applied to just troll in general (player events etc.). Also, extreme advantages in some situations is not a good counter balance to lacking in other. Some arguments can be made for being weaker and stronger in different situations but it is never a good idea to let that scale away into extremes. I'd rather see the Thief improved in other areas to get some appeal where it is lacking than just see it be the uncontestable king of ganks and escapes.

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Name one rogue in any mmo that doesn't. Wow-check, eso-check,bdo,check,ff14-check lol rogue archetype always use stealth, high evades and teleports in pretty much every mmo, it's what its thing is. Other classes have reveals, higher hp, higher armor, barriers, more access to blocks/shields, invulnerability skills and other defensive skills and in gw2 even other classes have access to teleports( rangers,guards,mesmer,ele,necro, rev etc) and also stealth( ranger,mesmer,guards with trappers etc) the real issue is rogue's are just generally disliked by the players who dont play them due to their universal playstyle, which is why the rogue complaining is the same on every mmo forum. Anet needs to learn to ignore the whining if they want to have a rogue like in their game.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

I think most non rogue complain because there is no skill being invisible and fighting invisible things are no fun. Now most games you mention have some deterrent being in stealth usually a 50 percent speed reduction while stealthed. Gw2 this nonsense is just magnified. No speed reduction lots of stealth and if a rogue fails he can lose over and over and come back stealthed again until he wins so players will complain. Rogue always attract the same type player. The griefer who doesn't like to die and likes to spawn camp and in most games camp much lower levels to one shot. Players who get one shot or spawn camped or attacked from stealth always complain because for the most part there's nothing to counter not being able to see your opponent. Do you really think it's fun to get jumped out of nowhere die before you can react but if you don't die and start fighting and god forbid start to win then you get denied the kill because you run. Then multiple that in gw2 by 1000 times. Yeah players will complain.Stealth is just a bad mechanic but like you said you can't make a mmo w/o one but I have yet to play one where stealth was fairly balanced and able to counter.

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

I hear ya. But in those other mmo's the rogue's also dont have to continually use up their global skill resources to keep stealth uptime. I definitely agree stealth is a annoying mechanic to fight against and frustrating especially if one shots outa stealth are happening but managing ur global resources while using them to maintain stealth as well as using the smoke fields and such I wouldnt say stealth is skill less. I honestly think stealth in any form that is effective against a opponent will be qq'd about often and repeatedly, with that in mind I guess my point is I dont think anything other than a full removal will help the situation much and I dont believe that will happen.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

It's not skilless in gw2 but it does reward bad thief's with easy kills and the really good thief's can take on 5 6 players and never get killed and even down/kill in those situations which yeah that's not normal and why even bother chasing/fighting unless you bored. Stealth is just a qq factory and has probably made more new players quit mmos then anything else. Yeah unless there's no stealth there will always be issues but I doubt any mmo would have the balls to make one w/o a thief type class.Oh and the topic yeah if you can't avoid sentry's and the 1 watchtower per map I can't help you. We all get marked cept by the time someone responds you can stealth and run off and most of us can't.

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Jilora.9524 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

1 thief taking on 5 players? I've seen things like this posted before lol in 7 yrs I've never seen this, who are u playing with? Lol. I've never 2v1 a thief and not either killed the thief or forced it to run and especially not a 3vthief lol. On occasion I've faced thieves especially s/d in wvw where they out skilled me hard with positioning on infiltrator strike and evades they seemed untouchable but that's on me for not catching them in cc's at the right time and cuz most my skills are neutered (I'm usual on warrior small amount I play these days) not really that they were OP just simply better than me.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- Marked does not only affect Stealth and Thieves.

I agree however that the mechanic needs to be reworked, specifically Watch Tower.

Strictly talking roaming/small scale-If I'm roaming on Warrior for example, I'm going to avoid getting Marked to the best of my ability. I can't Stealth so that doesn't matter, but I still don't want to be visible on the map. A Thief however doesn't care about being visible on the map. It's not about whether anyone knows where they are, it's that they can't Stealth to escape because they can pretty much ignore boundaries other classes wouldn't cross. No one wants to fight near a structure because they know; other players will show up and they'll get outnumbered, players can retreat inside, they can be hit by siege. Thieves don't care about that though because they have Stealth and enough mobility to leave before any of that happens.

All Marked does to Thieves is force them to play by the same rules as the rest of the classes- don't get Marked unless you have enough back up to deal with what responds to it.

I don't like Marked either because it makes roaming/small scale more punishing than fun. For people mad they can't Stealth when Marked it has nothing to do with people knowing where they are and getting outnumbered and everything to do with not being able to escape where if they were playing anything else they would die.

And I want to add a disclaimer here that I hate Tactics, passive upgrades, and tower campers, so I'm not defending this mechanic. I'm just making the point that now you know what it's like for everyone else who has to avoid fighting around half the areas on the map because it's not worth the risk.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Never played most of the MMOs you mentioned. But i did play WoW like 10 years ago. From what i remember, you could go to stealth only out of combat or with Vanish, that had like 2 minutes cooldown. Also ANY DAMAGE would reveal you and i dont remember having any teleport at all, but there might be one. And are you really telling me, that there are skills for reveal ? really? which one ele have? LOLThere is like 9 skills that have reveal in the entire game (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed) and half of them are total garbage

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

Yeah stealth and group stealth can only be used outa combat but are perma, except group stealth lol but imagine thief in gw2 stealthing a whole zerg for 10 secs on a 5 min cd lol. Vanish is ur in combat stealth which is also perma if u dont take dots and is unusable if u currently have dots so u have to cleanse first and hope u can clear em all. Rogue has a teleport to target and can be have 2 charges if ur sub, most bind kick to it to interrupt immediately after tele lol. I will say damage should definitely reveal stealth'd target's in gw2.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@SuchosCZ.2167 said:

@"SteepledHat.1345" said:This "community" hates when thieves dodge to survive. They hate when they stealth to survive. They hate when they teleport to survive.

The point is, that stealth for thief in GW2 should be enough deffence. No reason, to make it most evasive and most mobile class as well.