[Feedback] Infiltrator's Arrow (and Signet of Agility)

I know, I know. Another thread on this topic. Just hear me out.

Let me first start by saying that the nerf to Consume Plasma is fine because Mesmers have an incredibly difficult time vs Thieves, so this should help them out a bit. I'm still indifferent on Essence Sap due to how big the nerf was but it was pretty strong so I don't see a big problem.

With that out of the way, I want to get into why the change to Infiltrator's Arrow and Signet of Agility is shortsighted. Players have already pointed out the issue of the 8 initiative cost being clunky due to the Thief only having up to 15 initiative to begin with, and that is with the Trickery traitline which they were already pigeonholed into to begin with. To add to that, Mobility isn't just a staple of the Thief; it is what is keeping them relevant. Taking it away or severely hampering without giving them something elsewhere to make up for it at least a little bit puts Thief players in position where they don't know what direction you want them to go in. The fact that the Signet of Agility got nerfed along with it just compounds that confusion because it just tells Thieves you want them to be less mobile, but you don't want them to fight as well either.

But there is even more at play here. Either Thieves are going to toss Shortbow, or find a way around the cost. I'm going to specifically address the latter. What do you guys think Thieves will do to make up the cost in Initiative to keep Shortbow relevant? They are going to find a way to make up the cost, and that cost happens to be made up for by Shadow's Rejuvenation. Thieves that avoided this trait are now going to feel obligated to take it, whereas before it was just a really strong (and imho a crutch) trait.

This is because Shortbow 5, without the use of other Initiative regen sources, took 6 seconds to regen the initiative they need to fire off a single Infiltrator's Arrow. Now it takes 8 seconds. Shadow's Rejuvenation gives 1 Initiative every 3 seconds (or 2 per 6, totaling 8 initiative over 6 seconds), meaning it perfectly makes up the increased cost as long as a Thief camps stealth when they are running around. That means you are going to see Thieves camp stealth more, not less. This is further compounded by the Signet of Agility nerf because they won't be able to sustain fights now. This trait also happens to be the reason why Thieves were able to do so much while still stacking stealth. It mitigated the decision of choosing stealth over mobility/damage because a Thief could stack stealth with Black Powder, Blinding Powder and Heartseekers and get a bunch of their initiative back. This trait by itself is why Thieves can Perma-stealth with very few to no cooldowns. Now it's going to be nigh-mandatory along with Trickery.

Part of the reason I write this is because I am seeing a lot of people in the forums saying that the nerfs are good because the Thief needed nerfs for the sake of needing nerfs. I see alot of those same people complaining about stealth uptime on the Thief. I am telling everyone right now that this change is going to make that problem worse.

well said dude anet sucks they need to get a brain LOL!

What concerns me is sb builds that doesn't use trickery. If used even once, a thief would be practically tabbed out of other skills unless they manage to regen initiative through other sources or buy time with aa.

@cyberzombie.7348 said:What concerns me is sb builds that doesn't use trickery. If used even once, a thief would be practically tabbed out of other skills unless they manage to regen initiative through other sources or buy time with aa.

Yes, I have no trickery builds previously and they were already stepping on the line as do-or-die builds (mostly die). I do not think I can use them with sbow now. I will either have to use de with rifle or drop sbow completely on core/dared. In fact, I think I will probably have to rethink whether I will even take sbow at all, at least for core or dd. I could take it with my de, but I prefer rifle on that. This change alone kind of killed the diversity I was trying to make with builds that didn't rely on trickery. Time to make a useless full ini regen build xd

@Exitus.3297 said:I know, I know. Another thread on this topic. Just hear me out.

Let me first start by saying that the nerf to Consume Plasma is fine because Mesmers have an incredibly difficult time vs Thieves, so this should help them out a bit. I'm still indifferent on Essence Sap due to how big the nerf was but it was pretty strong so I don't see a big problem.

With that out of the way, I want to get into why the change to Infiltrator's Arrow and Signet of Agility is shortsighted. Players have already pointed out the issue of the 8 initiative cost being clunky due to the Thief only having up to 15 initiative to begin with, and that is with the Trickery traitline which they were already pigeonholed into to begin with. To add to that, Mobility isn't just a staple of the Thief; it is what is keeping them relevant. Taking it away or severely hampering without giving them something elsewhere to make up for it at least a little bit puts Thief players in position where they don't know what direction you want them to go in. The fact that the Signet of Agility got nerfed along with it just compounds that confusion because it just tells Thieves you want them to be less mobile, but you don't want them to fight as well either.

But there is even more at play here. Either Thieves are going to toss Shortbow, or find a way around the cost. I'm going to specifically address the latter. What do you guys think Thieves will do to make up the cost in Initiative to keep Shortbow relevant? They are going to find a way to make up the cost, and that cost happens to be made up for by Shadow's Rejuvenation. Thieves that avoided this trait are now going to feel obligated to take it, whereas before it was just a really strong (and imho a crutch) trait.

This is because Shortbow 5, without the use of other Initiative regen sources, took 6 seconds to regen the initiative they need to fire off a single Infiltrator's Arrow. Now it takes 8 seconds. Shadow's Rejuvenation gives 1 Initiative every 3 seconds (or 2 per 6, totaling 8 initiative over 6 seconds), meaning it perfectly makes up the increased cost as long as a Thief camps stealth when they are running around. That means you are going to see Thieves camp stealth more, not less. This is further compounded by the Signet of Agility nerf because they won't be able to sustain fights now. This trait also happens to be the reason why Thieves were able to do so much while still stacking stealth. It mitigated the decision of choosing stealth over mobility/damage because a Thief could stack stealth with Black Powder, Blinding Powder and Heartseekers and get a bunch of their initiative back. This trait by itself is why Thieves can Perma-stealth with very few to no cooldowns. Now it's going to be nigh-mandatory along with Trickery.

Part of the reason I write this is because I am seeing a lot of people in the forums saying that the nerfs are good because the Thief needed nerfs for the sake of needing nerfs. I see alot of those same people complaining about stealth uptime on the Thief. I am telling everyone right now that this change is going to make that problem worse.

Pretty much; ANet is continuing to address symptoms and not what's actually problematic.Shortbow keeps the thief relevant, and always has. Daredevil keeps the thief in full control of both its and its opponents' melee engages, since Dash will keep most melees from getting back into range for land attacks, and SShot controls the re-engage on the thief's terms.

While D/P Daredevil did face some nerfs here, the issues are less with shortbow/core thief and more with how Dash and BP being a stunbreak makes the thief impossible to catch in melee without excessive mobility skills or range. This pretty much only modifies the ranger/thief matchup to favor ranger more, which was already pretty well-favored to the ranger, and definitely makes shortbow devoid of any value in combat itself; you can't swap into the weapon to temporary dodge and keep pressure going, because either you'll be out of initiative after the primary engage to use it, or because you'll be incapable of using other weapon skills to make using the weapon worthwhile for any other context except running away.

I think its an aweful decision made by people that have zero experience playing this class and listening to the wrong audience to implement nerfs,and above all nerfing the wrong thing. How in wvw they nerf thief's mobility ( A Strictly roam class because they are Not wanted in blobs ). Yet keep alive the infinite amount of reflects and sustain in blobs,definetely shows their stance towards the roaming scene because of them wanting this to be a blob vs blob game mode mostly,and everything theyve done in the past only adds to this fact. They want that Solo thief that knows how to play to be caught by the 10 tryhards that barely know how to press a button on minstrel full sustain builds spamming all ze buttons with perm rotations of reflect,projectile destroy,heals,cleanses,blocks,and able to rely on the casual carry mechanic named downed state if one of them goes down. I can see them continue nerfing thief tbh,because i played tonight,and im still able to kill people !! Its crazy right ?!

Infract numbero 267 incoming,because this will probably hurt someones feelings,somewhere in the world.

In my personal opinion, they need to revert the nerfs (at least to Infiltrator's Arrow, but maybe also Signet) and actually address the problems that Thieves create. One big example I hear, including from other Thieves, is camping stealth (not spamming, camping). This likely means addressing the traits in Shadow Arts that cater to stealth camping (with Shadow's Rejuvenation being the big one).

I don't mind no stealth stacking if only they'd make revealed status traits more worth it.

I think the big issue with Anti-Stealth balancing is that they developed the Marked debuff for WvW but then never went back to it as a tool for balancing generally.

Now, I consider the time frame for stealth duration under "Marked" to be insanely low (less than even a full duration of a single stack of stealth).

However, I did wonder at some point whether a 5 or 6 second stealth limit from Marked would make sense as something attached to player skills. Rather than handing out revealed on skills (which Anet had been doing every so often) they could give people the ability to apply Marked instead.

This would be less toxic (revealed locks the player out of core gameplay mechanics after alll) and counter stealth camping, without needing to change how stealth works or how much it can be stacked (long duration stealth should be available assuming you avoid the skills that apply Marked after all).

So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

@appelflap.8310 said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

I personally think the problem is rather that every other nerf was justfied with IA existing as it was. Now they nerf IA + Signet, what does it mean for other nerfs that have been implemented in the past? I mean, they can nerf all they want, i just wonder, what does Anet want for thief in general? If decap/+1 is now allowed, what is? Dueling? People hate it. Condi? People hate it. Support? There is no support build for thief beside BT in raids in some encounters. Tank thief? Healer? Not really possible. Which is it?

I personally think the problem is rather that every other nerf was justfied with IA existing as it was. Now they nerf IA + Signet, what does it mean for other nerfs that have been implemented in the past? I mean, they can nerf all they want, i just wonder, what does Anet want for thief in general? If decap/+1 is now allowed, what is? Dueling? People hate it. Condi? People hate it. Support? There is no support build for thief beside BT in raids in some encounters. Tank thief? Healer? Not really possible. Which is it?

Thief (daredevil) is still a +1/decap after patch, you just need a bit more skill now

@"appelflap.8310" said:

I personally think the problem is rather that every other nerf was justfied with IA existing as it was. Now they nerf IA + Signet, what does it mean for other nerfs that have been implemented in the past? I mean, they can nerf all they want, i just wonder, what does Anet want for thief in general? If decap/+1 is now allowed, what is? Dueling? People hate it. Condi? People hate it. Support? There is no support build for thief beside BT in raids in some encounters. Tank thief? Healer? Not really possible. Which is it?

I think you misunderstand me.Previous nerfs have been justified with the point that thief was supposed to be decap bot. Hence why mobility is where thief was supposed to shine. Now you can't argue IA + sigil wasn't quite hefty nerf to mobility and to + role. Sure, you can override it with "skill" but fact remains - they once again touched mobility. Meaning, nothing will stop them from doing it in the future as well. So my question is, what thief supposed to be in eyes of devs. I mean, they wouldn't nerf IA if they thought decap bot was ok. The reason why they nerfed IA + sigil because they obviously thought that thief had too much mobility. However this kind of contradicts the narrative that devs told us in the past.Also, you "skill" argument is kind of faulty here. I could apply it to any other things. Guess what, then many things wouldn't exist in this game anymore be it open world or certain classes/mechanics. E.g. you don't need passive traits or pets if all could be easily covered by "skill" so there should be no problem to remove them all together. Somehow i doubt players maining certain classes would love such change though.

@"appelflap.8310" said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

It's one use, then waiting for initiative, then using it a second time. Your pool is 15, so you need to wait a second for the initiative and then you can cast it a second time. You might also use a combo with IA + SA/Signet but that might not be 100% reliable.

You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills. So when you reduce that pool by 8 points you can more accurately say you add a cooldown equal to every skills individual point value equal to or below its point value. Of course, that's an oversimplification too because initiative is not a traditional cooldown.

But, let's get into the weeds as it were. A player has 15 initiative traited. Every time you use a skill you should think about this calculation:

(15 - Initiative Currently Expended + Available Raw Initiative) - Cost of Weapon Skill

If the above number is negative you need to wait for initiative. This means, effectively, your weapon skill is on cooldown. Now, because all your skills have different costs some skills will be on cooldown, while others won't. The disadvantage is that, while you can use other less optimal weapon skills, using those skills will serve to increase the cooldown of more optimal skills also.

The larger the "Cost of Weapon Skill" is the more likely you will be to find subsequent uses of higher cost skills locked out. Thief doesn't have cool downs so much as thief sometimes has cool downs when initiative is lower than skills require.

So when you add 2 initiative to a 6 point skill it isn't the same as adding 2 to a 4 point skill. That's because the higher the cost the greater chance of it locking out a greater number of skills. Not all use cases involve full initiative with lots of available initiative regeneration. If you have 10 initiative and use an 8 initiative skill you are now limited to a 2 initiative skill (meaning practically all skills are on cooldown).

Which brings me to the "Effective Universal Cooldown" balancing test. That is:

(Cost of Desired Skill - (Available Initiative + Initiative Boosts) < or > (Opportunity Cost of Waiting)

In plain language, the time to regenerate initiative to use the skill that is optimal for the situation NOW is weighed against the choice between waiting and spending initiative on another skill. However, that choice is difficult because it means the skill you can't cast NOW also won't be available for both the original time period AND the time period of whatever substitute skill. So the choice is really the question of "how badly do I need to use this skill in the immediate future?"

The more you need to use a skill (which for a teleport may be critical because you need to decap or +1 ASAP) the more you effectively can't use other skills because you can't afford to cut into your pool. So "wait for initiative" unlike waiting for cool downs on other professions means auto attacking while you wait.

Which is all to say that you can't speak of this as an 8 second cool down unless you ignore the unique initiative system on a fundamental level.

@saerni.2584 said:

@"appelflap.8310" said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

My point still is that IA was overperforming and the nerf on it was deserved. Thieves can still stealth on the fly(to disengage, engage or regen initiave safely), they still have the best mobility, they still have the most evades of any class so yeah they shouldn't spam IA 3 times in 4 secs like before patch traveling 2700 range without any utilities, only weapon. After the patch thieves still have sb and shadowstep to travel around the map, the only difference now is that you have to use utilities too like other classes instead of weapon only to travel that fast and that's how it should be. As long as people can't understand how broken this was, they will never be satisfied when something gets nerfed.

@appelflap.8310 said:So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd.@saerni.2584 said:You misunderstand with the idea that this is an 8 second cool down. That is a shared resource pool with all other weapon skills.

Exactly this. If Infiltrator's Arrow was ever overperforming (it wasn't), and you absolutely had to put it on an 8-second cooldown, then put it on an actual 8-second cooldown as an F3 function. Remove it from the initiative system like Steal. There, solved. It probably should have been like that in the first place. It would allow a Thief to actually use it to engage/reposition/disengage without completely giving up all of its offensive capabilities. And it would finally allow a Thief to remain viable while wielding two actual combat weapon sets.

@appelflap.8310 said:Thief (daredevil) is still a +1/decap after patch, you just need a bit more skill now

That's always the excuse and rationale. The Thief player ALWAYS has to "use more skill now"... after EVERY SINGLE PATCH. But why? I chose the Thief when I started playing because it already required the most skill to succeed with... in 2014. I'm tired of it. No... the Thief player shouldn't have to be god-tier just to remain competitive against average players. They just shouldn't have to be. This is a casual game... Thief players who play for years shouldn't be struggling against other players who have played only for months with other professions.

Every single time a decent Thief build is found, it gets hammered into the ground. Not just shaved, but hammered. Besides, why should every Thief be forced to play Daredevil just to decap? Daredevil was supposed to be a brawler. Why can't I give up mobility for lethality? Now, there's no choice... lose a significant amount of mobility, yet no more lethality or sustainability. It's a joke.

I'm really starting to believe that Consume Plasma was never overpowered. It never turned the Thief into a god. All it did was set the Thief on even footing with other professions, and the actual Thief player's skills were just so much superior, they curb stomped their opposition.

@appelflap.8310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@appelflap.8310 said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

You're balancing based on maybe one build in one mode doing one task. They could have reduced the range on IA and maybe even on Dash. We would still be able to climb some terrain but have Initiative for making use of IAs blind or other skills and our reset potential would be regulated a bit. It's a poorly thought change that disregards other builds and still leaves those problems in place, only now people are increasingly more encouraged to not use and combine skills, which seems counterintuitive for GW2 combat.

I find this community halarious I really do. If this want a nerf to thief and was a more favored class most the community would have the opposite reaction.First no class should have to use a traitline when using a weapon like thief does now lol and before anyone says well u dont have to chose trickery with sb, its ur decision to do so.Well think about how much 8 ini of12 really is and with the continuation of anets lazy methods of nerfing thief via ini cost how much of hit it would be for any class to be shut out of half thier weapon skills or more because they used one skill on one weapon lol. Nobody would be ok with this on any class but thief lol.

@appelflap.8310 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@appelflap.8310 said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

IA was never overperforming. I would like you to find me some evidence of anyone anywhere arguing this seriously. I even did some legwork for you and found literally a single forum post from a year ago where the OP was arguing for a significant nerf to IA:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88551/its-time-to-address-infiltrators-arrow

The OP got ratio'd by nearly everyone in the responses because his arguments were faulty, including that Thieves have the best Mobility and therefor must be nerfed. With all due respect, you seem to be falling into the same trap. It isn't a question of whether or not the Thief has the best mobility; it's a question of whether they have too much mobility, and how it should be solved if they do. Just like it isn't a question of whether a class has the most damage, most team utility or most survivability. It's just a question of it being too much.

Things are allowed to be strong as long as they aren't too strong, or at least brought in line by some kind of weakness. Yes, IA was strong, but so far no one has brought forth any decent arguments as to why it was too strong. Reiterating what others before me have said, using IA costs resources in a pool other weapon skills share, and none of it is returned just by swapping weapons. Any resources they spend on going from Point A to Point B or C is going to be resources they have to wait for before doing damage. Other classes that can keep up with the Thief to a decent degree do not have to make such compromises, but at the same time their kits don't allow them to. That's what makes the Thief unique.

Even if anyone did bring forth valid arguments, I don't see how upping the initiative cost to 3 quarters of the Thief's base initiative bar is a valid solution. Now that problem of initiative management when using shortbow is going to be a lot more of a problem, pigeon-holing them into Trickery even harder. You are right about one thing: Thieves are still going to be the most mobile class in the game. Like I said in my OP, Thieves are going to find ways around the nerfs. Whether they swap to perma-stealthing with Shadow's Rejuvenation to balance out the Initiative cost or mashing Heartseeker across the landscape (450 range Leap for 3 initiative), they are going to figure it out, and nobody, not even the Thief players themselves, are going to like it.

EDIT: Grammar.

It's not surprising that the devs have changed their minds regarding thief balance, I mean, were any of the current devs even on the team two years ago?

@"Sobx.1758" said:How is this relevant? (that's an actual question)If the "balance" head is preferring one Profession/class/job over all others, there could be an bias in favour of that profession/class/job.This bias could cause nerfs on other professions/classes/job, which would end up beneficial towards said preferred profession/class/job.

@saerni.2584 said:

@"appelflap.8310" said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

Here you have, in great detail, a post explaining why Anet should be careful about nerfing (and lowering) thief's initiative costs. Heavy-handed nerfs are essentially shaving off the current skill cap (and, alas, flexibility) of the class - exactly what happened to soulbeast. Wonder how many ranger players those changes made quit.

@saerni.2584 said:

@"appelflap.8310" said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

This is probably the best way I have ever seen someone explain Initiative in detail.

@"Exitus.3297" said:IA was never overperforming. I would like you to find me some evidence of anyone anywhere arguing this seriously. I even did some legwork for you and found literally a single forum post from a year ago where the OP was arguing for a significant nerf to IA:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/88551/its-time-to-address-infiltrators-arrow

Thank you for posting this. I found the link to my old Unkittening the Thief thread there. It seems as relevant today as it did back then... maybe even more so now.

@"appelflap.8310" said:So basically what you're saying is that infiltrator's arrow is underwhelming now after the patch? A 900 range teleport on a weapon that can be spammed 2 times in a row when full ini, even when no ini you regen 8 ini in 8 secs without the use of other initiative sources. So that's a 900 range teleport with an 8 sec cd in the worst scenario, how is that underwhelming? If this is a problem for thieves then it is a l2p issue, it means you relied on overperforming mechanics in the past.

It is when a rev can port 600 range and do 6k dmg by the side, which can go through walls.And it's also a difference how a skill is used. Deathstrike is often used aggressively and applies pressure. Whereas Infiltrator Strike is our means to get away. Which means we decided that the fight is lost for us and we use up all our initiative to do so.

Why did it get nerfed? Because pepegas cry that "the thief got away" and they didn't "feel good".

Then pls nerf all other mobility skills as well. Most of the classes outrun or outstealth thievs.

I agree that the higher cost might be okay for sPvP, because if one team has a thief (that doesn't suck) and the other team doesn't, they can outrotate them and have easier and faster decaps, which makes it "unfair". But even that is a stretch... but I might give it to you...

For WvW the change is just dumb.

And as other said. Thieves will find another way to replace that or play some other builds or weapon sets. I'm already curious when the crying for another skill will start.Maybe Sword 2? Shadowstep OP? Dash? Too much dmg?

My suggestion to all thief hater. Make one yourself and play. I bet you 1000g your view will change from "nerf OP thief plxxx" to "thief need a buff".Balance is not about how good or bad you feel for winning or losing an encounter.