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Too much sustain in PvP


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Returned to the game a couple months ago, only to find a plethora of skill across all classes were atrociously butchered. Specifically skills that have CC tied to them. Now I can certainly see the rationale behind such nerfs, as having a skill with high damage AND crowd control is a mechanical issue in almost all mmo's around today. But to leave like 23 damage (lightning discharge trait for example) on a skill seems a bit weird, and just makes one disheartened as they bask in the nostalgia of what the skill once was.

It seems the direction they are currently going (and a popular trend in MMO's now) is this meta tank/bunker where everyone is stacking massive defense. This is especially problematic in GW2 as of late as no one can viability play a glass cannon build in Conquest. This leads to very few build options if one wants to remain competitive. As time goes on build diversity in GW2 continues to dwindle down to about 3 meta builds, and a whole handful of significantly crappier ones trailing marginally far behind.

I just hope that with this upcoming expansion the Dev team addresses some of these seemingly "unpolished" PvP changes, and return the fun back to competitive play in Guild Wars.

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Im enjoying my bunker core ele

There is no build diversity problem, there are lazy people copy pasting and not even reading the builds they are using

Can my core ele go higher than 1550, probably not cuz it has no dmg and relies on other ppl mistake trying to 1vX a build that is useless and give me value

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@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

What good players are these - I think I need an invite to this special balance club

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

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@Dantheman.3589 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

What good players are these - I think I need an invite to this special balance club

You gotta get better to find out, I suppose.

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

What good players are these - I think I need an invite to this special balance club

You gotta get better to find out, I suppose.

How good are we talking about, I personally think I’m pretty good.

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@Apolo.5942 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

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@"Auroraborealis.7310" said:Returned to the game a couple months ago, only to find a plethora of skill across all classes were atrociously butchered. Specifically skills that have CC tied to them. Now I can certainly see the rationale behind such nerfs, as having a skill with high damage AND crowd control is a mechanical issue in almost all mmo's around today. But to leave like 23 damage (lightning discharge trait for example) on a skill seems a bit weird, and just makes one disheartened as they bask in the nostalgia of what the skill once was.

It seems the direction they are currently going (and a popular trend in MMO's now) is this meta tank/bunker where everyone is stacking massive defense. This is especially problematic in GW2 as of late as no one can viability play a glass cannon build in Conquest. This leads to very few build options if one wants to remain competitive. As time goes on build diversity in GW2 continues to dwindle down to about 3 meta builds, and a whole handful of significantly crappier ones trailing marginally far behind.

I just hope that with this upcoming expansion the Dev team addresses some of these seemingly "unpolished" PvP changes, and return the fun back to competitive play in Guild Wars.

Dont pretend every class is a rev, only they have broken sustain. If i make a total defence & heal build with 0 dmg in any other class i wont live for more than 5 seconds when 2 ppl focus me.

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@"Auroraborealis.7310" said:Returned to the game a couple months ago, only to find a plethora of skill across all classes were atrociously butchered. Specifically skills that have CC tied to them. Now I can certainly see the rationale behind such nerfs, as having a skill with high damage AND crowd control is a mechanical issue in almost all mmo's around today. But to leave like 23 damage (lightning discharge trait for example) on a skill seems a bit weird, and just makes one disheartened as they bask in the nostalgia of what the skill once was.

It seems the direction they are currently going (and a popular trend in MMO's now) is this meta tank/bunker where everyone is stacking massive defense. This is especially problematic in GW2 as of late as no one can viability play a glass cannon build in Conquest. This leads to very few build options if one wants to remain competitive. As time goes on build diversity in GW2 continues to dwindle down to about 3 meta builds, and a whole handful of significantly crappier ones trailing marginally far behind.

I just hope that with this upcoming expansion the Dev team addresses some of these seemingly "unpolished" PvP changes, and return the fun back to competitive play in Guild Wars.

It's more complicated than you think.

Sustain isn't too high in correlation to sustain damage. Or you could say sustain damage is high because sustain is too. Same side of the coin.The main problem actually is the whole balance of damage.

The removal of damage on cc skills was kinda the right decision. But that wasn't all they should have done.

The main problem is, and people don't seem to realize this, the balance between burst damage and sustain damage.

In the past you had lower sustain damage but higher burst damage. You needed less sustain to stay alive because damage in general had more counterplay, namely dodging or preventing your opponents' high damage skills.

Now you kinda have to cheese through the high sustain damage with a lot of healing and boons to stay alive while burst damage is just icing on the cake.

They would have to streamline skills, make them less bloated, reduce sustain damage, reduce boon "vomit" and in turn buff (fair) burst damage that you can setup with a cc. Then they can reduce sustain.

The reason you can't play glass cannons is actually really simple. they just nerfed them too much. shatter mesmer and fresh air ele (not that it was ever any good) were pretty much killed off. same for hammer guardian. thief damage was nerfed because thief as a whole was too good at too many things at the same time, but its mobility is still good enough to make it relevant. another problem with those glass cannon builds was that they were unfair to play against. instant burst, stealth burst, teleport burst etc..

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

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@"Auroraborealis.7310" said:Returned to the game a couple months ago, only to find a plethora of skill across all classes were atrociously butchered. Specifically skills that have CC tied to them. Now I can certainly see the rationale behind such nerfs, as having a skill with high damage AND crowd control is a mechanical issue in almost all mmo's around today. But to leave like 23 damage (lightning discharge trait for example) on a skill seems a bit weird, and just makes one disheartened as they bask in the nostalgia of what the skill once was.

It seems the direction they are currently going (and a popular trend in MMO's now) is this meta tank/bunker where everyone is stacking massive defense. This is especially problematic in GW2 as of late as no one can viability play a glass cannon build in Conquest. This leads to very few build options if one wants to remain competitive. As time goes on build diversity in GW2 continues to dwindle down to about 3 meta builds, and a whole handful of significantly crappier ones trailing marginally far behind.

I just hope that with this upcoming expansion the Dev team addresses some of these seemingly "unpolished" PvP changes, and return the fun back to competitive play in Guild Wars.

The 'problem' is they try to address this by removing one amulet after another but the sustain isn't based on amulets . I would say 50-60% through the

invulnerable over time skill.(because of the burst dmg design) 20% from condi clean the rest are amulets and runes. Changes on runes and amulets mostly hit heal/support builds by having no sustain and no room for an invulnerable over time skill. (mostly guardian)Which also directly ties to why we have felt like having too much cc we have less stabi because no more Heal FB and Tempest got the stabi sharing stolen. Having the balance destroyed between them also means longer fight.

I know this isn't how everyone fights I also don't fight so but this is how a majority starts fighting in PvP while Metabattle meta said beserker gear and builds. Going after the top 10% players hits meta of the rest of the game heavy over time because they can work often with the limitations which comes with the nerfs in one way or another while for the rest those builds become unplayable and this is true in all game modes.

examples out of other modeWvW e.g with the sure plus on boons and heal a public zerg can easier hold their own against guild zergs. Means the guild zerg becomes stronger against a public this is because guild zergs have a perfect setup wile public zergs don't/can't so the sure plus on 10 man helps actually a public zerg.

In PvE fractals back with Soi nerf of Chrono they nearly done this too.

To say it more clearly with the nerf of builds which are used by the 10% they often help them more then hurt then and the rest can see where they belong . This also create a split in the Meta in the distinct game modes. On top of this because of the nerfs Support players have a really hard time in GW2 and most important a lot of functions of elite specs starts to feel hallow . At least this is the point were I can't t fathom to understand Arena.NET developers any more.

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@Apolo.5942 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

I see the problem here. You're confusing balancing around incompetence with designing around human, physical limitations. And Anet covered that when they designed the game with the caveat that human beings only having 2 hands and only being able to see within the visible spectrum in mind.

What, is that a completely ridiculous argument that misses the point entirely? Well, now you know how I felt reading your train of false equivalences.

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@Apolo.5942 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

if you do that you will have builds that might be trash for average players and absolutely broken in the highest %. or builds that get nerfed because they perform better for average players but are weak in the highest %. both is bad. you need to balance power level for the top % and adjust skill floor for the average players while maintaining a high skill ceiling to encourage players to improve. i've had this argument so many times already, so forgive me for keeping this short and simple.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

if you do that you will have builds that might be trash for average players and absolutely broken in the highest %. or builds that get nerfed because they perform better for average players but are weak in the highest %. both is bad. you need to balance power level for the top % and adjust skill floor for the average players while maintaining a high skill ceiling to encourage players to improve. i've had this argument so many times already, so forgive me for keeping this short and simple.

This guy gets it.

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@Apolo.5942 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have shit like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@paShadoWn.5723 said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have kitten like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

So, your gripe is those good players end up with a much higher win rate than the players they're better than? Nah. Pass. Next?

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If you have a meta that is too bunker it limits viable builds. If you have a meta that is too much glass cannon then it also ruins viable builds. If you ask me the meta should meet in the middle and continue to buff builds and traits to that baseline. Top play will always have a meta regardless of how many builds are available.

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@Brimstone Jack.3462 said:

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have kitten like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

So, your gripe is those good players end up with a much higher win rate than the players they're better than? Nah. Pass. Next?

no, my gripe is that the character balanced around " average " end up with absolutely no counterplay. to the point where 2 best players in the world facing eachother will know for sure that the one piloting akali will always win since she is so overtuned for people that know how to use it. This is why she was sitting at 48% winrate for plebeians where at pro play actually competent players could 1v2/1v3 other competent players. THIS is my gripe, im fine with good player smacking bad players, its as it should be.but when a good player grabs OP class/build/prof and other good player doesnt stand a chance there is a problem

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have kitten like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

So, your gripe is those good players end up with a much higher win rate than the players they're better than? Nah. Pass. Next?

no, my gripe is that the character balanced around " average " end up with absolutely no counterplay. to the point where 2 best players in the world facing eachother will know for sure that the one piloting akali will always win since she is so overtuned for people that know how to use it. This is why she was sitting at 48% winrate for plebeians where at pro play actually competent players could 1v2/1v3 other competent players. THIS is my gripe, im fine with good player smacking bad players, its as it should be.but when a good player grabs OP class/build/prof and other good player doesnt stand a chance there is a problem

That would be solved by balancing around the top players, though. See where I'm going here? Thanks for agreeing with me, bud.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have kitten like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

So, your gripe is those good players end up with a much higher win rate than the players they're better than? Nah. Pass. Next?

no, my gripe is that the character balanced around " average " end up with absolutely no counterplay. to the point where 2 best players in the world facing eachother will know for sure that the one piloting akali will always win since she is so overtuned for people that know how to use it. This is why she was sitting at 48% winrate for plebeians where at pro play actually competent players could 1v2/1v3 other competent players. THIS is my gripe, im fine with good player smacking bad players, its as it should be.but when a good player grabs OP class/build/prof and other good player doesnt stand a chance there is a problem

Seems like a misunderstanding to me. You both agree on the very same thing. I do, too.

Balancing around the average joes is the best way to anger your veteran players, and make them consider leaving the game for good. As a side note, that's why I think challenge motes are an effective approach to PvE - it doesn't underline either party. PvP's a different beast, though.

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@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"paShadoWn.5723" said:Meta builds are only working in Plat+. Below, you can play whatever.A friendly reminder: high-ranked elitists should not ruin the game for the remaining majority by successfully requesting patches that benefit only them.

Friendly reminder: They balance the game around people who actually know how to play it. Not around people who are misusing their characters and mad because they don't get to just be plat+. Balancing around bad players is never a good thing.

For all the good its done for the game, and the several stages of pvp when it was essentially dead, may be they should balance around the average player instead.If anything there is too little sustain in pvp.

The explosive meta was the brainchild of a few streamers that no longer play the game and it nearly killed pvp.

This is not DOTA or League of Legends, you should simply not be able to down someone with a few keystrokes.

I don't see myself ever getting behind the idea of balancing a competitive pvp system around non-competitive players.

Why not, balancing around the standard instead of the over performer is the norm in most aspects of life.

Retirement age is set around the average age expectancy.The army zeroes its sight around the average infantry engagement distance, not extreme long shooting.Your minim passing grade is based on the minimum acceptable knowledge requirements to perform.Speed limits are set around average response times for the environment.Most sports court sizes are completely arbitrary and not based on physical performance.Most combat sports have arbitrary weight classes instead being all put into heavy weight.

then we will have kitten like akali from league of legends where good player can beat any other player on the planet with 100% success rate, where if you see akali and know she is good you can not ever hope to win, but hey. average akali stumbles and dies so its balanced. who cares that good joe has 90% winrate in 1500 games, when average jonny has 50% winrate. its balanced that way

So, your gripe is those good players end up with a much higher win rate than the players they're better than? Nah. Pass. Next?

no, my gripe is that the character balanced around " average " end up with absolutely no counterplay. to the point where 2 best players in the world facing eachother will know for sure that the one piloting akali will always win since she is so overtuned for people that know how to use it. This is why she was sitting at 48% winrate for plebeians where at pro play actually competent players could 1v2/1v3 other competent players. THIS is my gripe, im fine with good player smacking bad players, its as it should be.but when a good player grabs OP class/build/prof and other good player doesnt stand a chance there is a problem

Seems like a misunderstanding to me. You both agree on the very same thing. I do, too.

Balancing around the average joes is the best way to anger your veteran players, and make them consider leaving the game for good. As a side note, that's why I think challenge motes are an effective approach to PvE - it doesn't underline either party. PvP's a different beast, though.

Really?, lets say the worst happens and at the very top end of performance you only have a handful of viable builds that can exploit extreme skill, while at the average joe level you get extreme diversity.

How is this any worse than it is today with only a handful of viable builds at all levels? MMR DOES EXISTS and it is there for a reason.

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