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Great changes, but far too little - where is the Herald nerf?

snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
edited December 4, 2020 in PVP

First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and they all hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

3 - Removing Trapper Runes which get exploited by DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will run full glasscanon variants ever again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back on the spotlight

5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves/Engi Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

6 - Small Warrior Damage Buff - since they lost alot of it when CC‘s were nerfed

Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

Comments

  • @snoow.1694 said:
    First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

    1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

    2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

    3 - Removing Trapper Runes against DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will ever run it again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

    4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back to the spotlight

    5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves and Holo Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

    And what kind of stuff changed you would like to see?
    1. I can understand Lich Form Nerfs, but what kind of nerfs to Reaper? It's melee oriented spec most of the time and fragile if focused, no real blocks/invulns like others, Life Force generation isn't great either or rather good on long cd, only good damage if specced specifically for it, like it should be I guess?
    2. I'm not defending Heralds, but where does the source of this damage comes? Easy might generation? High flat possible damage from skills? Which aspect of Herald/Revenant is responsible for that? I'm seriously curious for reason why it's so broken. I wouldn't really call it "insane mobility class" either, because it's only mostly for engaging, if no target around, it's the slightly higher mobility than Guardian/Necro, comparable to maybe to FA Ele with Superspeed at most.
    3. Removing Trapper Runes? Ye, but apply that removal for WvW as well. DH damage is fine, I would even say it need nerfs on traps. Firebrand like many other elite speces need a complete redesign from scratch, too much of everything in 1 class.
    4. Same like Firebrand, needs for complete redesign. Damage buff won't fix it's poor design that is all over the place with it's kit.
    5. Maybe after you get rid of all this clutter on screen that Mesmers are capable of creating, ye they can get few buffs, otherwise no. Chronomancer and Mirage need also complete redesign.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:
    First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

    1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

    2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

    3 - Removing Trapper Runes against DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will ever run it again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

    4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back to the spotlight

    5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves and Holo Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

    I think reaper is fine, lich form dunno, it's definitely a problem in v3s and v2s, but who cares about those game modes anyways

    Herald is probably ok, even if i hate this class with some passion when i remember how many times i thought i was safe and they double port and killed me

    Trapper runes prolly need an icd to shave off some of the survivability stealth provides. And honestly, those trapper builds are annoying to play against, but most of them not necessarily op

    Weaver is in a weird spot, maybe you can see some play from lightning rod ans Fresh Air again with all those rounds of thief nerfs

    I think mesmers will be ok after one more round of nerfs across the board. I played chrono for a bit and the level of possibilities you have with split time is kinda insane and would require some time to master it to compete in high level, so you won't see many mesmers out there. I don't want any easy to play mesmer builds, they get out of control very quickly

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can't see how those complains make much sense. Even Trapper Runes deserve to stay and have an ICD instead because the ease of access is the broken aspect, not the effect.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.
    twitch.tv/shaoaz

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 4, 2020

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I can't see how those complains make much sense. Even Trapper Runes deserve to stay and have an ICD instead because the ease of access is the broken aspect, not the effect.

    Well I would even agree with that. I just think high damage should also be met with small sustain and I say that as a Guardian main. If someone can drop 10 stacks burn on you they should also drop faster and the other way around. ICD sounds great to me

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    1- Arguable but I'm all for elite transformations being removed from sPvP.
    2- I doubt a nerf is needed.
    3- Trapper runes have been a problem child since release, I wouldn't be against a rework. This runeset already led ranger's and thief's traps to be nerfed, it might be time to admit that the runeset 6th line was the issue.
    4- I doubt weaver really need a damage buff.
    5- The mesmer do not "need" a sustain buff, else mesmers would build for sustain (hint: inspiration traitline). What mesmer need the most is mechanical QoL.

  • noiwk.2760noiwk.2760 Member ✭✭✭

    honestly... i sort of dont understand people saying reaper need nerf... if im fair.. reaper already sort of struggle to find its place in the current meta
    and it require support to even be able to do anything.. burst classes normally target reaper right away and the reaper is just free food before it build up life force .
    it has 0 block or frame rate .. no evades and out of shroud low mobility .. life force regen is now meh?
    it has very low condi clean.. really damage is only thing that reaper has and even for that he has to work and build up life force take that and reaper is gone.
    lich form? go ahead nerf it but i think its fairly bad and easily countered skill already i dont even use it i prefer chilled to the bone elite..
    simply because both tempest/mesmer / warrior/ and who does have projectile reflect and then you are dead if you attack.. lich form last 10 seconds and
    really thief will stealth/warrior will block/tempest/mester will reflect it.. and others will walk way .. dont try face tank it and you will be fine..

    herald? you really want to nerf rev further? power herald is only a +1 and frankly thief still does that better.. herald might have abit of burst but after its burst it has nothing much to continue do damage.. mobility? only to engage as it require target and at a very very high cost..
    it cant even get away from you after he oes his burst that isnt even easy to land .. if you survive.. all herald does now days are searching for low HP playesa dna try finish them off .. they cant team fight and they cant 1v1 .. sorry but i think herald is fine.. very balanced in my opinion !

    i agree with the rest.. DH need a nerf that burn is sick and trapper rune stealth is just too much..
    weaver infact ele in general core/weaver / temest as damage classes need a buff !
    mesmers .. i agree i would love to see mesmer not mirage back in pvp.. they are just not good enough right now
    warrior.. sad days for warrior.. really.. Anet started a diraction on feb update promised to finish and never got back at it..
    left classes like warrior with all their utility skills " physical skills' doing 0 damage
    and tons of werapon skills also doing no damage.

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Herald is actually fun and interactive relatively- there’s your change

  • Dantheman.3589Dantheman.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @snoow.1694 said:
    First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and they all hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

    1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

    2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

    3 - Removing Trapper Runes which get exploited by DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will run full glasscanon variants ever again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

    4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back on the spotlight

    5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves/Engi Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

    6 - Small Warrior Damage Buff - since they lost alot of it when CC‘s were nerfed

    Also I don’t think reapers that op, like I said before herald not that bad, what’s that about no glass specs becuz of dh- the condi build is fairly glassy and the power variant is full glass for sure, weaver had enough damage, Mesmer is fine now and war damage is fine...

  • @snoow.1694 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I can't see how those complains make much sense. Even Trapper Runes deserve to stay and have an ICD instead because the ease of access is the broken aspect, not the effect.

    Well I would even agree with that. I just think high damage should also be met with small sustain and I say that as a Guardian main. If someone can drop 10 stacks burn on you they should also drop faster and the other way around. ICD sounds great to me

    Trapper DH already does drop fast, just not to melee. Pressure them from range after F3 is gone and avoid F1 pull and they're quite literally helpless.

  • @snoow.1694 said:
    First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and they all hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

    1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

    2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

    3 - Removing Trapper Runes which get exploited by DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will run full glasscanon variants ever again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

    4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back on the spotlight

    5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves/Engi Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

    6 - Small Warrior Damage Buff - since they lost alot of it when CC‘s were nerfed

    From all your points, i wont agree with number five. Since last patch i have seen power mesmers (Chronos in this case) with great surviability (less damage overall in game does that) winning 1v2 in side nodes and sometimes middle. With all the visual cluster as a bonus for you.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    1- Arguable but I'm all for elite transformations being removed from sPvP.
    2- I doubt a nerf is needed.
    3- Trapper runes have been a problem child since release, I wouldn't be against a rework. This runeset already led ranger's and thief's traps to be nerfed, it might be time to admit that the runeset 6th line was the issue.
    4- I doubt weaver really need a damage buff.
    5- The mesmer do not "need" a sustain buff, else mesmers would build for sustain (hint: inspiration traitline). What mesmer need the most is mechanical QoL.

    mesmer needs something, I can get sustain but I deal 0 dmg, or I can deal dmg and only way to recover life is 6k heal once in a red moon.
    balance wise that is fine IF everyone else does it too exept its not the case cuz hurr durr holo/rev

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    herald has as condi garbage damage, in power almost no sustain, no stunbreaks, extremely easy to counter. Even its might & protection generation feels like sh...
    could maybe even need a little buff / tweak in energy usage (its ridiculous)

    ... and reaper&core necro both need an shroud+lich nerf

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

  • Kuma.1503Kuma.1503 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    I don't think IL is broken If I had to nerf it, I would target the abuse cases:

    1. Make it so that Infuse Light does not heal damage from conditions that were applied before it became active. It does heal damage from conditions applied after it becomes active.

    Not sure how one would code this in though, or if it's possible. If this ends up making them too condi weak, you can increase the condis cleansed by Renewing wave.

    Alternate solution: Buff Expertise. I won't delve into why it should be added back in this comment, but longer lasting conditions means that a herald who uses IL to heal off of condis will still have to worry about the conditions ticking away on him after it ends. Herald has poor cleanse so cleansing them all will be a challenge for them.

    1. IL heals damage from lingering AoEs (Wells, symbols, traps, ect) at 33% effectiveness. Basically if it sits on the ground and isn't a part of your character, it heals for less.

    Reducing Herald's ability to just heal to full off of ambient damage in a teamfight.

    However, I would also:

    1. Infuse Light converts 150% of strike damage taken to healing.

    If you're being a brainlet and you keep mashing into Infuse light you will be punished. If the Herald is using it intelegently to heal off of an enemy's burst skill, he will be rewarded more.

    In summary, lessening the reward from more mindless applications of the skill. Increasing the reward from more skilled usage of the skill.

  • @CutesySylveon.8290 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    I can't see how those complains make much sense. Even Trapper Runes deserve to stay and have an ICD instead because the ease of access is the broken aspect, not the effect.

    Well I would even agree with that. I just think high damage should also be met with small sustain and I say that as a Guardian main. If someone can drop 10 stacks burn on you they should also drop faster and the other way around. ICD sounds great to me

    Trapper DH already does drop fast, just not to melee. Pressure them from range after F3 is gone and avoid F1 pull and they're quite literally helpless.

    You fortot to say that once they use thier f1 they los 80% of thier damage

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kuma.1503 said:
    I don't think IL is broken If I had to nerf it, I would target the abuse cases:

    1. Make it so that Infuse Light does not heal damage from conditions that were applied before it became active. It does heal damage from conditions applied after it becomes active.

    Not sure how one would code this in though, or if it's possible. If this ends up making them too condi weak, you can increase the condis cleansed by Renewing wave.

    Alternate solution: Buff Expertise. I won't delve into why it should be added back in this comment, but longer lasting conditions means that a herald who uses IL to heal off of condis will still have to worry about the conditions ticking away on him after it ends. Herald has poor cleanse so cleansing them all will be a challenge for them.

    1. IL heals damage from lingering AoEs (Wells, symbols, traps, ect) at 33% effectiveness. Basically if it sits on the ground and isn't a part of your character, it heals for less.

    Reducing Herald's ability to just heal to full off of ambient damage in a teamfight.

    However, I would also:

    1. Infuse Light converts 150% of strike damage taken to healing.

    If you're being a brainlet and you keep mashing into Infuse light you will be punished. If the Herald is using it intelegently to heal off of an enemy's burst skill, he will be rewarded more.

    In summary, lessening the reward from more mindless applications of the skill. Increasing the reward from more skilled usage of the skill.

    Or increase self healing by 50% and make it last 2 seconds since this skill is pretty much a better Endure Pain, but in the current state can be used quite without much thought put through.

    I would request to reduce Gaze of Darkness cooldown back to 20 seconds and let the reveal apply without the need of stealth if they do so.

    Willing to help with anything Revenant related.
    twitch.tv/shaoaz

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

    Yes. I know. I addressed that. Hit them once and it's no big deal since it's a small packet of healing per hit. Other professions will get a nice meaty heal by pressing their heal, but the herald heal is small unless you keep attacking them when the buff is up.

    Again. Not complicated.

    if you throw 8k dmg skill into herald and he reacts with heal, its over 10k healing already, coupled with 3s of damage immunity, there is no time to react.
    you dont stop attacking, its on revenant to kitten the skill up

  • Infuse light never caused me any troubles whenever i played as rev myself, lb ranger, guardian or warrior. Its legit l2p issue

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

    Yes. I know. I addressed that. Hit them once and it's no big deal since it's a small packet of healing per hit. Other professions will get a nice meaty heal by pressing their heal, but the herald heal is small unless you keep attacking them when the buff is up.

    Again. Not complicated.

    if you throw 8k dmg skill into herald and he reacts with heal, its over 10k healing already, coupled with 3s of damage immunity, there is no time to react.
    you dont stop attacking, its on revenant to kitten the skill up

    Yes, if you happen to throw out a big burst at the exact moment they toss up their heal, then luck has not been in your favor and they will get a good heal. But realistically, you're much more likely to hit them with a smaller hit of damage from sustain pressure. And if you are throwing around 8k damage that frequently, then you're going to wipe the floor with them anyways.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

    Yes. I know. I addressed that. Hit them once and it's no big deal since it's a small packet of healing per hit. Other professions will get a nice meaty heal by pressing their heal, but the herald heal is small unless you keep attacking them when the buff is up.

    Again. Not complicated.

    if you throw 8k dmg skill into herald and he reacts with heal, its over 10k healing already, coupled with 3s of damage immunity, there is no time to react.
    you dont stop attacking, its on revenant to kitten the skill up

    Yes, if you happen to throw out a big burst at the exact moment they toss up their heal, then luck has not been in your favor and they will get a good heal. But realistically, you're much more likely to hit them with a smaller hit of damage from sustain pressure. And if you are throwing around 8k damage that frequently, then you're going to wipe the floor with them anyways.

    where are you getting the luck from in the equation? if you are throwing small hits they WONT use the heal, they will use it against big hit and insta heal for 10k, this is the point I am trying to make, there is no luck involved, its instant and rev is in control when he uses it, and they wont use it against chip 1-2k dmg but against heavy hits, they will use it and run in front of the lich, or they will run into traps, or after they get burning from guard or split sec before getting hit by a burst.

    EDIT
    warrior has the same skill, but since it has 0,25s cast time you can ACTUALLY stow cancel and counterplay it, with rev the best you can do is guess, and even then due to traits they get over 2,5k healing at the worst assuming they convert 0 dmg.

  • Dahkeus.8243Dahkeus.8243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

    Yes. I know. I addressed that. Hit them once and it's no big deal since it's a small packet of healing per hit. Other professions will get a nice meaty heal by pressing their heal, but the herald heal is small unless you keep attacking them when the buff is up.

    Again. Not complicated.

    if you throw 8k dmg skill into herald and he reacts with heal, its over 10k healing already, coupled with 3s of damage immunity, there is no time to react.
    you dont stop attacking, its on revenant to kitten the skill up

    Yes, if you happen to throw out a big burst at the exact moment they toss up their heal, then luck has not been in your favor and they will get a good heal. But realistically, you're much more likely to hit them with a smaller hit of damage from sustain pressure. And if you are throwing around 8k damage that frequently, then you're going to wipe the floor with them anyways.

    where are you getting the luck from in the equation? if you are throwing small hits they WONT use the heal, they will use it against big hit and insta heal for 10k, this is the point I am trying to make, there is no luck involved, its instant and rev is in control when he uses it, and they wont use it against chip 1-2k dmg but against heavy hits, they will use it and run in front of the lich, or they will run into traps, or after they get burning from guard or split sec before getting hit by a burst.

    EDIT
    warrior has the same skill, but since it has 0,25s cast time you can ACTUALLY stow cancel and counterplay it, with rev the best you can do is guess, and even then due to traits they get over 2,5k healing at the worst assuming they convert 0 dmg.

    Ok forum warrior. Too tired of trying to talk sense into you. Somehow other players have learn to play around this, even though you can't seem to wrap your head around it. Pretty clear nothing is getting through to you since you're set on wanting to believe that all is vain.

    P.s. countless examples of how to pull this off on YouTube if you actually would like to L2P:

    (go to 1:51 mark)

    Or here at 2:10

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @snoow.1694 said:
    First thing - none of ArenaNets changes were unjustified and hit on the spot, but they still forgot some issues

    1 - The much demanded Reaper and Lich Form Nerf

    2 - Heralds will now harrass people with abnormal damage coupled with a restart button in Glint Heal and insane mobility

    3 - Removing Trapper Runes against DH's while offering options by buffing Power Damage - once they drop in 5 seconds, no one will ever run it again - and maybe a rework of Firebrand

    4 - Small Weaver Damage Buff that would put the spec back to the spotlight

    5 - Mesmer Sustain Buff - with the nerfs to Thieves and Holo Nades and some more sustainability Mesmer could be back in the game

    And what kind of stuff changed you would like to see?
    1. I can understand Lich Form Nerfs, but what kind of nerfs to Reaper? It's melee oriented spec most of the time and fragile if focused, no real blocks/invulns like others, Life Force generation isn't great either or rather good on long cd, only good damage if specced specifically for it, like it should be I guess?
    2. I'm not defending Heralds, but where does the source of this damage comes? Easy might generation? High flat possible damage from skills? Which aspect of Herald/Revenant is responsible for that? I'm seriously curious for reason why it's so broken. I wouldn't really call it "insane mobility class" either, because it's only mostly for engaging, if no target around, it's the slightly higher mobility than Guardian/Necro, comparable to maybe to FA Ele with Superspeed at most.
    3. Removing Trapper Runes? Ye, but apply that removal for WvW as well. DH damage is fine, I would even say it need nerfs on traps. Firebrand like many other elite speces need a complete redesign from scratch, too much of everything in 1 class.
    4. Same like Firebrand, needs for complete redesign. Damage buff won't fix it's poor design that is all over the place with it's kit.
    5. Maybe after you get rid of all this clutter on screen that Mesmers are capable of creating, ye they can get few buffs, otherwise no. Chronomancer and Mirage need also complete redesign.

    How much more nerfs can the DH traps have? Dragon Maw does no damage. ToF first pass does no damage. The only trap the does any relevant damage is PB, but it’s consistently is none existent, you are better off using SoJ. And as a reminder power DH is supposed to... deal damage. It currently barely does. If there are issues related to condi due to trapper runes, that what needs to change.

    I think the condi DH trapper build is garbage. It is just kitten annoying to fight due to constant stealth.

    As for FB, why redesign something that works well in pve and worked well in pvp, when it was decently balanced? Is not this a prime example of recreating the wheel? Waste of resources that could be much spent on overall balance.

  • @otto.5684 said:
    How much more nerfs can the DH traps have? Dragon Maw does no damage. ToF first pass does no damage. The only trap the does any relevant damage is PB, but it’s consistently is none existent, you are better off using SoJ. And as a reminder power DH is supposed to... deal damage. It currently barely does. If there are issues related to condi due to trapper runes, that what needs to change.

    I think the condi DH trapper build is garbage. It is just kitten annoying to fight due to constant stealth.

    As for FB, why redesign something that works well in pve and worked well in pvp, when it was decently balanced? Is not this a prime example of recreating the wheel? Waste of resources that could be much spent on overall balance.

    Dragon Maw is very strong CC skill if someone gets caught(don't ever come up with stab uptime, boons need a murder across the board together with condies), if it comes to other traps, they need some dmg nerfs and maybe a bit of rework so they aren't "fire and forget" and spam ccs here and there to play ping-pong game with enemy, unhealthy for the game. How about changing traps into something more like: If enemy triggers/passes through your trap your next attack will be unblockable or will daze that specific enemy.
    Trapper runes need to be removed, it was a mistake to even release them in the first place, like many others in PvP/WvW...
    Just because something "works", it doesn't mean that it's "healthy", currently FB have access to far too many skills, be it boons, ccs, damage. On top of that it have Mantras with 3 charges, that's a bit too much for one e-spec? It's just Guardian on steroids.
    There is also Mirage, Chronomancer, Daredevil and many others that are simply failure from design level, they don't bring anything beside powercreep and steroids to the table. Many of elite speces were made in PvE in mind, not PvP/WvW in which these speces are simply unhealthy one way or another. It's nice to give something nice and fresh to the game, but not some cheap powercreep.
    It's like wearing a coat and putting on top of it additionaly jacket in the middle of summer, cause why not.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2020

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    dude its instant lol

    Yes. I know. I addressed that. Hit them once and it's no big deal since it's a small packet of healing per hit. Other professions will get a nice meaty heal by pressing their heal, but the herald heal is small unless you keep attacking them when the buff is up.

    Again. Not complicated.

    if you throw 8k dmg skill into herald and he reacts with heal, its over 10k healing already, coupled with 3s of damage immunity, there is no time to react.
    you dont stop attacking, its on revenant to kitten the skill up

    Yes, if you happen to throw out a big burst at the exact moment they toss up their heal, then luck has not been in your favor and they will get a good heal. But realistically, you're much more likely to hit them with a smaller hit of damage from sustain pressure. And if you are throwing around 8k damage that frequently, then you're going to wipe the floor with them anyways.

    where are you getting the luck from in the equation? if you are throwing small hits they WONT use the heal, they will use it against big hit and insta heal for 10k, this is the point I am trying to make, there is no luck involved, its instant and rev is in control when he uses it, and they wont use it against chip 1-2k dmg but against heavy hits, they will use it and run in front of the lich, or they will run into traps, or after they get burning from guard or split sec before getting hit by a burst.

    EDIT
    warrior has the same skill, but since it has 0,25s cast time you can ACTUALLY stow cancel and counterplay it, with rev the best you can do is guess, and even then due to traits they get over 2,5k healing at the worst assuming they convert 0 dmg.

    Ok forum warrior. Too tired of trying to talk sense into you. Somehow other players have learn to play around this, even though you can't seem to wrap your head around it. Pretty clear nothing is getting through to you since you're set on wanting to believe that all is vain.

    P.s. countless examples of how to pull this off on YouTube if you actually would like to L2P:

    (go to 1:51 mark)

    Or here at 2:10

    I did out of curiosity, first video at about 1:56. Rev uses IL when warrior is not even attacking him, he used IL after he got hit, not as he was about to get hit,
    AKA he missplayed and got punished for it. What he COULD have done is use IL right before getting hit by full counter and get fat 5k heal from it.
    Sec video same thing, rev used IL against immobalised warrior that wasnt even casting any offensive skills, like come on, its not a rocket science to use IL when warrior casts bullscharge or gs3 to get healed.

    EDIT
    in first vid, even if he used to block shield stun, that is still over 4k heal and 3s immunity, so even poor use of IL is highly rewarding

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    How much more nerfs can the DH traps have? Dragon Maw does no damage. ToF first pass does no damage. The only trap the does any relevant damage is PB, but it’s consistently is none existent, you are better off using SoJ. And as a reminder power DH is supposed to... deal damage. It currently barely does. If there are issues related to condi due to trapper runes, that what needs to change.

    I think the condi DH trapper build is garbage. It is just kitten annoying to fight due to constant stealth.

    As for FB, why redesign something that works well in pve and worked well in pvp, when it was decently balanced? Is not this a prime example of recreating the wheel? Waste of resources that could be much spent on overall balance.

    Dragon Maw is very strong CC skill if someone gets caught(don't ever come up with stab uptime, boons need a murder across the board together with condies), if it comes to other traps, they need some dmg nerfs and maybe a bit of rework so they aren't "fire and forget" and spam ccs here and there to play ping-pong game with enemy, unhealthy for the game. How about changing traps into something more like: If enemy triggers/passes through your trap your next attack will be unblockable or will daze that specific enemy.
    Trapper runes need to be removed, it was a mistake to even release them in the first place, like many others in PvP/WvW...
    Just because something "works", it doesn't mean that it's "healthy", currently FB have access to far too many skills, be it boons, ccs, damage. On top of that it have Mantras with 3 charges, that's a bit too much for one e-spec? It's just Guardian on steroids.
    There is also Mirage, Chronomancer, Daredevil and many others that are simply failure from design level, they don't bring anything beside powercreep and steroids to the table. Many of elite speces were made in PvE in mind, not PvP/WvW in which these speces are simply unhealthy one way or another. It's nice to give something nice and fresh to the game, but not some cheap powercreep.
    It's like wearing a coat and putting on top of it additionaly jacket in the middle of summer, cause why not.

    I am not in favour of removing trapper runes, even though I think implementing them was a mistake. It is a problem that could be easily resolved with a 10 ICD.

    Also, as someone who mains guardian and used to play mostly DH, pre Feb patch, I think traps should have a duration of 15 secs, where if they do not trigger, the disappear. However, their damage is currently garbage tier. If it was not, you would see tons of power DHs. Do you? I think I can count the ones I have seen playing power, in the last 50 games I played, on 1 hand.

    As for FB, I too not it’s biggest fan. Even though it currently does not work in spvp, FB does too much. IMO the heal mantra needs a longer CD, even in pve. But of course, it needs to... heal first. And MoJ needed weakness removed, but obviously the effect should be longer than 1 sec. regardless, it is not in need of rework.

  • snoow.1694snoow.1694 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2021

    Told you guys that Herald will become a problem, even if I was slightly off with my „wEaVeR bUff“ lmao

    Balance Patch every 6 weeks kappa

  • @snoow.1694 said:
    Told you guys that Herald will become a problem, even if I was slightly off with my „wEaVeR bUff“ lmao

    herald isnt a problem, it's a L2P issue. since the glint nerf, and even before glint nerf missplays on rev has always been punishing, but people don't realize it cause they don't go and play the class themselves for enough hours to learn how to counter play them. with 10k+ games on all my accs i can say with pure experience that counter play is possible, to glint heal. damage? ok, you have what? sword 3? warr f2, block, staff 5 etc + free evade frames from different skills. sword 2? well you got dodge for that buddy. sword 5? well you got a dodge for that too buddy. most of the people complaining that i duel with rev always complains about prev broken damage, and then i see them not even try to dodge sword 5 or sword 2 or use a block/evadeframe for sword 3

    just wanted to put it out there, cause either OP is a troll or really don't know how to 1v1 people properly

  • Lucentfir.7430Lucentfir.7430 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2021

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Dahkeus.8243 said:
    Yes, let's delete one of the most high skill builds in existence because a heal that you can largely negate by just not attacking them requires too much skill to counter play.

    that would be counterplay if the skill didnt activate instantly

    If they're in dragon stance, you know it's coming. If they're channeling Facet of Light, it's coming soon. Just stop attacking and they will only get a small tick of healing and the rest of the 3 sec buff is wasted.

    That's much more counter play than a guardian or engi that will instantly go invincible with no way to tell ahead of time

    ah yes the, its coming somewhere withing 10s, just do nothing 5Head, just never attack rev in dragon stance 5Head

    This isn't rocket science. You see dragon stance, then you know it could be coming somewhere in there and just be ready to stop attacking when it happens. No different than counter-playing an ele and adapting your play based on on what element they're in except it's even simpler. You just stop attacking and then wipe the floor with the rev that is still at low health with no sustain left. You can attack and fight like normal when they're in dragon. You just stop when that heal icon shows up under their name. Not complicated.

    I know whenever I used to fight bad revs it was really predictable, make it seem like I was going to burst them, and hit them with a auto attack and they'll pop it , in that manner I'll stow weapon and kite lightly, you have them chasing you trying to get more healing out of you lol. Decent revs though predicting when they pop it is a tad harder but rules to live by would be as soon as you see green numbers stow weapon and kite. That's the thing, outside that heal, Rev has no strong sustain, old Glint Shiro relied on evasions and Iframes to wait inbetween CDs, enchanted daggers didn't give you much healing unless it hits the target(s) and consumes charges into blocks and evades with no healing.