Sylvari Immunity [spoilers ahead]

As I recall, sylvari have been known to be immune to Zhaitan's corruption in vanilla gw2 and there were no sylvari risen to see. Then season 2 and heart of thorns revealed how the sylvari were actually minions of mordremoth and that they can, in turn, be corrupted by mordremoth because a piece of lore revealed sylvari and the Pale Tree were actually purified mordrem (forgive me for not remembering where that lore came from).

Now, in season 3, we learned that Primordus and Jormag have absorbed some of the plant and death domains that were released upon the death of their relative elder dragons. Does that now mean that the threat of dragon corruption is a continuous threat for all sylvari, considering Mordremoth's domain has been absorbed by at least two elder dragons? Maybe Primordus won't corrupt sylvari since I recently read that it wants to destroy all life, but wouldn't other elder dragon's maybe see the ability to corrupt or convert another elder dragon's minions as a valuable asset in their race for magic consumption?

I know this is tangential to anything Path of Fire related, and good ol' crystal face was farther out than possibly Jormag even was, making planty/deathy branded an unlikely possibility (or as rare as the abomination we fought in Bitterfrost Frontier) but it seems like a huge question in relation to one of the playable races that no one has really addressed (or that I'm aware of). If Mordy's domain wasn't absorbed by Kralk or Bubbles, then it seems like a non-pressing issue considering the two confirmed ED's who had that influence are taking a nap for the moment and the topic can, I guess, wait to be answered.

Wow, I'd never thought about that before.

I think it's unlikely Primordius would corrupt them since as far as we know it doesn't corrupt anything - it makes minions from scratch (or rather from lava). But Jormag is a definite possibility and it's possible Kralkatorrik could too since we don't know at the moment if he was too far away to absorb any of Mordremoth's magic or if we simply haven't encountered plant/crystal minions. (Remember we had to go looking for Jormag's ones.)

If I was a sylvari I think I'd take the approach of assuming I can be corrupted and therefore taking precaution's to avoid it until I know for sure. But hopefully it's something we will see addressed.

Sylvari were not immune to just becoming risen, but branded as well - as far as explicit examples have gone. Presumably, they are immune to all dragon corruption (yes, even Mordremoth's - I'll explain why).

Firstly, it's never said the Pale Tree was purified, but it is heavily implied and, quite honestly, the only way she could be "from the dragon" and also not enslaved to its will.

Though never explicitly stated, it seems fairly clear via dialogue and HoT promotions that the immunity was caused not by the sylvari origins, but by their (and the Pale Tree's) connection to the Dream:

Pale Tree: There are those who reject my protection. It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can.PC: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call

The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control.https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

Ironically, the Dream is also how Mordremoth turns sylvari (Note: He does NOT corrupt them - at least not in the "dragon corruption" sense; what he does seems to be whispering thoughts designed to seem like the sylvari's own thoughts so those who ever had doubts or malicious thoughts would turn to Mordremoth, believing these to be their own rather than Mordremoth's). Basically, what Mordremoth does to sylvari during HoT is a more traditional brainwashing / hypnotizing ideal. Bombard an individual with thoughts, convincing them those thoughts are their own, so that they follow you willingly. Those who resisted realized the thoughts belonged to Mordremoth - or were so sure of themselves, like Occam, that they knew the thoughts to be not their own, even if they didn't know it was Mordremoth's.

Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

This would mean, theoretically, that Soundless could be corrupted by other dragons - as could Malyck and the sylvari from his tree. But at the same time, unless they (re)gain a connection to the Dream (or gain a connection directly to Mordremoth like Scarlet Briar), they can be corrupted traditionally by Mordremoth.

Now, as to OP's actual question of Primordus etc. taking control of sylvari: I would say no. For two reasons. Firstly, Primordus only took the domain of plants - not of mind - so it's unlikely Primordus has or had access to the Dream. While we've learned Kralkatorrik also took in some Mordy magic (and probably Zhaitan magic too given it was the closest Elder Dragon at the time of Zhaitan's death - I would disagree with Taimi about Mordremoth taking in Zhaitan's magic, though; the Blighting Trees were nothing unique enough to show the domain of death) it's still unlikely to have access to the Dream. The Dream was never part of Mordremoth - he was just as much a visitor as the Pale Tree - and we know this because besides the fact Malyck had no connection to it, non-sylvari did have a connection to it.

Without access to the Dream, and thus access to hijacking the channels of the Dream sending Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts, an individual would not be capable of turning sylvari via brainwashing whispers. However, if a sylvari lacks access to the Dream, then in theory they can be changed by any Elder Dragon.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Ironically, the Dream is also how Mordremoth turns sylvari (Note: He does NOT corrupt them - at least not in the "dragon corruption" sense; what he does seems to be whispering thoughts designed to seem like the sylvari's own thoughts so those who ever had doubts or malicious thoughts would turn to Mordremoth, believing these to be their own rather than Mordremoth's). Basically, what Mordremoth does to sylvari during HoT is a more traditional brainwashing / hypnotizing ideal. Bombard an individual with thoughts, convincing them those thoughts are their own, so that they follow you willingly. Those who resisted realized the thoughts belonged to Mordremoth - or were so sure of themselves, like Occam, that they knew the thoughts to be not their own, even if they didn't know it was Mordremoth's.

Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

Pretty much this. I'd note that Edge of Destiny it's implied that Glint retains some ability to feel what Kralkatorrik is up to, which could indicate that even 'cleansed' minions and champions are still connected to their former master. Glint, being possibly the most powerful user of mind-magic behind Mordremoth and Lyssa, isn't at much risk of being influenced through that link. For the sylvari, though, it essentially gave Mordremoth a back door into their minds that he could use to brainwash them. The Mordrem Guard certainly did not appear to be corrupted in the same way that regular minions were.

Whether another dragon could potentially pick up the ability to use that link... I'm not sure. It might have been completely specific to Mordremoth, and now that Mordremoth is dead, the link is gone: even if another Elder Dragon of Plants and Mind does arise, it still won't be the one that created the Blighting Trees and, ultimately, the sylvari. Alternatively, it's possible that just having the right combination of domains is enough: being products of plant magic, it might be that plant magic allows direct influence over sylvari in general, and if you combine it with mind this allows for what Mordremoth did.

The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

That's a valid point. It's possible that sylvari being cleansed will mean that they're immune to having this done, or that it could be done but the dragon that does it might find they have no control over the sylvari risen that are created. But it could be that combining plants and death would allow for the effect you hypothesise.

(Note that it's likely that Kralkatorrik didn't get much "Mordy juice" due to distance, but I guess we'll find that out when we meet the new Branded in Elona.)

I guess I keep making that mistake between sylvari being corrupted by mordremoth and being turned (it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around it but I'm getting there I think). But also, if it is possible for sylvari cut from the dream (or dead sylvari) to be turned, I'd hope that's answered.

A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

It also seems weird that the two domains aren't explicitly tied together, but i guess that's some metaphysical/metamagical phenomenon that could be explained away. As a whole though it seems traditional corruption of at least living sylvari who have a connection to the dream isn't possible (and thus that specific threat over sylvari players heads is non-existent).

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

In Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn - a champion of Jormag - corrupts a norn corpse. What Kralkatorrik tends to corrupt is what he can physically reach; while what Jormag tends to corrupt is those willing to serve him. However, both - like all other Elder Dragons - seem capable of corrupting all things equally. Even Zhaitan corrupts living and plants.

Presumably, sylvari are connected to the Dream even when dead. This wouldn't be too surprising, since there are multiple graves of sylvari that have held altered plants or are more directly tied to the Dream (Riannoc's for the latter, Killeen's and Fyonna's (or w/e that Secondborn's name is) for the former).

Alternatively, there is one potential idea - the notion that Mordremoth's plant domain and Zhaitan's death domain are opposites are brought up twice in Season 3, first in the Unstable Abomination icebrood, and second in sylvari dialogue in Siren's Landing. In the latter, the sylvari liken Mordremoth's domain not to plants, but to life. Taking this idea, one could argue the reason why even sylvari corpses couldn't be corrupted by Zhaitan is because there's an incapability between the domains - like with Jormag's and Primordus' domains being opposites. Of course, this then puts the idea from the Rata Novans that every Elder Dragon has one specific weakness as complete BS.

@castlemanic.3198 said:A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

It also seems weird that the two domains aren't explicitly tied together, but i guess that's some metaphysical/metamagical phenomenon that could be explained away. As a whole though it seems traditional corruption of at least living sylvari who have a connection to the dream isn't possible (and thus that specific threat over sylvari players heads is non-existent).

Nothing says it outright, but we see neither shadow nor mind being utilized by Primordus or the Unstable Abomination, which means at the very least Primordus and Jormag didn't seem to take these secondary domains.

There could be multiple reasons - the domains weren't in what was absorbed being one, another being that they did take them but do not utilize them in manner we can see, or third possibility is that like the Six Gods' domains, only the primary domain/title is transferred between predecessor and successor.

Aurene does seem to use illusions and telepathy, but this was even from her being an egg (see vision during City of Hope mission). I think that this is because Aurene "corrupted" us a bit, during the Prized Possession mission, and all dragon minions have a hive mind with their master. Thus explaining why only we could see that phantasmal Aurene projection.

Yup, the Pact Commander is a slave to Aurene.

Pact Commander: I'm at Aurene's disposal.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Nothing says it outright, but we see neither shadow nor mind being utilized by Primordus or the Unstable Abomination, which means at the very least Primordus and Jormag didn't seem to take these secondary domains.

There could be multiple reasons - the domains weren't in what was absorbed being one, another being that they did take them but do not utilize them in manner we can see, or third possibility is that like the Six Gods' domains, only the primary domain/title is transferred between predecessor and successor.

I'd imagine the second to be most likely, but the third I doubt, considering Water was Abaddon's second domain, which presumably Kormir obtained upon usurping him and then hot potatoed it to Lyssa, who (as far as we know) still retains dominion over it. The domain of water didn't simply dissipate into nothingness. In fact wouldn't that be evidence that secondary domains can be transferred to another? But also, we're in unprecedented territory, in that no single domain was transferred to multiple gods because a successor did not take up the mantle, and while I do agree with the theory that the six and the elder dragons have similar roles as cosmic entities, it doesn't seem that this sort of thing has played out (the one case it might have was narrowly avoided and would have ended up more catastrophic than the death of a single elder dragon) and thus we don't really have a relative case to pull from.

Aurene does seem to use illusions and telepathy, but this was even from her being an egg (see vision during City of Hope mission). I think that this is because Aurene "corrupted" us a bit, during the Prized Possession mission, and all dragon minions have a hive mind with their master. Thus explaining why only we could see that phantasmal Aurene projection.

Yup, the Pact Commander is a slave to Aurene.

Pact Commander: I'm at Aurene's disposal.

This made me laugh, thank you for that.

Abaddon's primary domain was not water, but knowledge. And that went to Kormir while the secondary domains changed about (Spirit that could be linked to Dwayna before NF went to Kormir, while Water from Abaddon went to Lyssa). Lyssa never took anything from Abaddon - all of Abaddon's power went to Kormir and Kormir alone. Similarly, Kormir took up Order and Spirit out of thin air. Just as Dhuum and Grenth share the domain of Death, but Dhuum never touched the idea of ice (which Grenth had before even becoming a full fledged god) - Grenth took up the domain of Ice out of thin air.

In the case of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, the primary domains are death and plant. It is possible that the domains of shadow and mind need not be taken over by anyone, or could be usurped by anyone with their death without taking in magic.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Abaddon's primary domain was not water, but knowledge. And that went to Kormir while the secondary domains changed about (Spirit that could be linked to Dwayna before NF went to Kormir, while Water from Abaddon went to Lyssa). Lyssa never took anything from Abaddon - all of Abaddon's power went to Kormir and Kormir alone. Similarly, Kormir took up Order and Spirit out of thin air. Just as Dhuum and Grenth share the domain of Death, but Dhuum never touched the idea of ice (which Grenth had before even becoming a full fledged god) - Grenth took up the domain of Ice out of thin air.

In the case of Zhaitan and Mordremoth, the primary domains are death and plant. It is possible that the domains of shadow and mind need not be taken over by anyone, or could be usurped by anyone with their death without taking in magic.

I didn't intend on saying water was Abaddon's primary domain (hence the words 'second domain') nor that Lyssa took anything straight from Abaddon (hence the hot potatoing of water from Kormir to Lyssa), as the comment was attempting to point out that it was the secondary domains that were being tossed around (water from Abaddon to potentially Kormir because of her taking Abaddon's place and then Lyssa being confirmed to hold domain over water), not the primary domains and that the same could potentially be done for Mordremoth's secondary domain, 'mind'. Though with Grenth taking up the domain of ice before becoming one of the six and the rest of your comment, it could indeed be that secondary domains don't need to be maintained.

It would be worth to note that neither Primordius nor Jormag have corrupted Risen or Mordrem, they have imbued Their Own Minionswith the magic of said dead elder dragons. Whether it's impossible or too cost intensive for an ED to corrupt another dragon's minions I don't know,but it's clear one minion will never be corrupted by another ED, but at best killed to have their essences absorbed for private use.

There may be exceptions, or rather, roundabout ways, for example, I can imagine Kralkatorrik branding some creatures, as Kralkatorrik has shown ableto brand creatures such as elementals. But I think in such a case there's still the point of "is it worth it" since it costs more energy than creating a newminion of your own, and ED's only care about optimal, and quantitive magic consumption, they will not quickly take a cost intensive way unless it'snecessary or VERY rewarding in the long run.

I think that there just hasnt been enough time for a non-Primordus elder dragon to gain a close enough distance to either mordrem or risen since the deaths of both Zhaitan and Mordremoth, not that they are unwilling. Primordus creates it's own minions and does not corrupt living things and as such wouldn't make use of mordrem or risen despite it's proximity to both, but we don't have evidence to state that the other elder dragons, who now have the domains of plant/life and death, are unable or unwilling to use already made minions of those domains. I'd figure that simply having access to the domains would give access to those minions within a certain proximity, and why 'waste' resources that you can cheaply obtain if you can seize control of it (though you are arguing that it wouldn't be 'cheap' to obtain since it probably would require a secondary corruption, which I am taking note of).

To me, it just seems to make sense that the elder dragons now have the keys to these two cars, they just need to be close enough to start the engines, but as far as I know there really just isn't any lore to dictate how it would go one way or the other with regards to usurping control over now masterless dragon minions (i'm sure Drax and Konig are far more informed than I am and may have an answer, theoretical or otherwise).

I would agree on the "not enough time" but expand it to more of "not in the right location". While risen did have a presence on the Ring of Fire Islands during Zhaitan's reign, we see none in Season 3. This would imply either we do not go where the risen went, or perhaps more likely the risen were recalled during the assault on Orr or had wandered off without orders from their master. And there was never a mordrem presence there - nor anywhere inbetween the Ring of Fire and Frostgorge Sound.

Jormag was never close to either mordrem or risen to have the chance.

Kralkatorrik, however, went right through where a large presence of risen had been during Zhaitan's reign: Elona's northern border. So unless ArenaNet would say "it's been 5 years, they're gone and dead" or decide to retcon that bit of lore from The Movement as well, then we could in theory see branded risen.

I doubt they considered that though.

As for the idea that "the elder dragons now have the keys to these two cars, they just need to be close enough to start the engines" - this is not entirely accurate. Keep in mind that dragon minions are more than just the domain. The domain determined the form of the minions - rotten, crystalline, icy, etc. - but every dragon minion 'type' is part of its own hive mind that is attached for the related Elder Dragon as its nexus. Even after Zhaitan's death, in Arah explorable, risen continued to act as if Zhaitan were alive - it was only until Siren's Landing that we see now the mindless minions are capable of being tamed or like animals but still lashing out at any nearby, while the more intelligent ones are able to think on their own (but apparently continue to chose to serve Zhaitan's will even in its death) and can even bring the other risen under their wings (be that figurative or literal).

And that makes the situation of risen and mordrem really interesting and I really wanted Season 3 to go more in-depth with it, particularly related to the Mordrem Guard. Dragon corruption removes the will of the individual, enslaving them to the Elder Dragon; but Mordremoth turned sylvari through whispers rather than corruption. Because of this, Mordrem Guard could always theoretically turn back (particularly if separated from Mordremoth's whispers - see Buried Insight side achievement/conversation), while normal mordrem and risen (as well as any other dragon minion) could not. But now we learn that with the Elder Dragon's death, the minions regain their free will just as a purification ritual would give... but like Glint initially, they continue to serve their dragon. What this means is that with an Elder Dragon's death, the proverbial "power of love and friendship" which we have always been told is useless against dragon minions (and is why the idea of Ventari or Ronan being the ones to purify the Pale Tree, or Mawdrey's description of being tamed by the adventurer, is misleading if not outright contradictory to lore), now is no longer useless. One COULD turn a post-Zhaitan's death risen back to the side of good through conversation and coming to understanding - and same goes for mordrem. So long as they have intelligence; and if they don't, then they can be tamed like wild animals (as we see with that gargantuan grub event).

Which means, while the notion of things like Joko taking over the risen was ridiculous before, with Episode 6, it becomes completely feasible... just not in the way people imagined.

I know this discussion has gone tangential to the original post, but as the OP, this is a fascinating conversation and I hope moderators don't stop the conversation for going off topic.

I had figured that the hive mind was kind of the car and the elder dragons could just hop into the seat and drive the hive mind to their goals, but that LOYALTY aspect is super fascinating, I have to do that Buried Insight achievement now.

I hope this will be explored in the future, the whole 'what now' with the risen and mordrem, the domains of death and plant/life being absorbed by the remaining elder dragons and possibly Aurene (or even Gleam if he still lives), the fate of the mind and shadow domains, what happens if another rises to take the place of Zhaitan or Mordremoth and specifically gain full control of their domains.

I hope this is explored tangentially with non-ED content. I'm excited for what the future holds.

One observation that's coming to mind in this discussion is that while we've seen examples of minions corrupted by multiple energies (Inquest experiments and the new Destroyers) we haven't seen any evidence that doing so changes their allegiances. The Inquest experiments were either in the control of the Inquest or not, and the new Destroyers, obviously, remained under Primordus' control.

So it is possible that while multi-corruption is possible, the 'forced loyalty' aspect only triggers once. So while Zhaitan (or some other Elder Dragon) could theoretically corrupt a sylvari, there'd be no benefit to it because the sylvari was already claimed by Mordremoth (and that claim then broken through whatever means allowed the Pale Tree to be independent). Similarly, it might be entirely possible for, say, Kralkatorrik to Brand a Destroyer, but the result would be that Primordus gets a Destroyer with Branded abilities as well, not that Kralkatorrik claims the Destroyer for himself. So Kralkatorrik has no incentive to Brand a Destroyer even if he has the opportunity.

(The Inquest, on the other hand, is already usurping control, so they don't care which dragon the minion would be loyal to without that usurpation.)

This might actually explain what we're told about the sylvari. The general impression we have is that sylvari were immune - but there is the odd line here and there which indicates that the sylvari can be corrupted by dragons, it's just that to sylvari it's fatal rather than converting them into a minion. Which would result in situations where, for instance, champions of Zhaitan might corrupt sylvari in order to kill them, but does not take that extra step of reanimating them, as the result would just be an undead sylvari that still had the exact same loyalties and goals that they had in life.

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The whole mind / dream theory seems convincing when talking about living Sylvari. But what about dead ones? Shouldn't the domains of plants and death be the perfect combination to create Sylvari zombies? We know that Jormag and Kralkatorrik used to primarily corrupt living organisms, but that was before Zhaitan's death.

So I believe the dead will rise again. This time reinforced by ice or crystals. And the Sylvari are not safe.

The remaining dragon's don't gain the minion-raising abilities of the dead dragons, they just gain their magic. Dragons won't just suddenly start raising the dead like Zhaitan or create plant life like Mordremoth. We saw this with Mordy in HoT; he could use death magic to create plant-based clones of living and dead creatures, in addition to making standard Mordrem, but he couldn't raise the dead.

@castlemanic.3198 said:A tangential question, have the devs explicitly said that the mind domain wasn't absorbed by other elder dragons? It seems odd that only one of two domains was absorbed by two elder dragons, but the mind domain was kinda left to evaporate (unless that's a future thread they want to tie to Bubbles or Kralkatorrik or even something that Aurene may have absorbed completely to enhance the telepathic powers gained from her mother.)

Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

As for why Sylvari were immune, it's because they were dragon minions, one dragon cannot claim/corrupt/control the minions of the other dragons.

About the mind realm, there's a hint about Jormag having access to mind powers. During the Braham mission where we recover the burning scroll, Rox is trapped in ice and after she's freed, she says she was having a dream/hallucination about being on a beach (iirc).

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:In Edge of Destiny, the Dragonspawn - a champion of Jormag - corrupts a norn corpse. What Kralkatorrik tends to corrupt is what he can physically reach; while what Jormag tends to corrupt is those willing to serve him. However, both - like all other Elder Dragons - seem capable of corrupting all things equally. Even Zhaitan corrupts living and plants.

Actually, there's the exception of Primordus, who doesn't corrupt, but creates his minions from inanimate matter. I guess you could say he corrupts minerals.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

We've seen, through the side achievement of the Rata Novus instance that Konig referred to, that turned sylvari do not have the same behaviour as dragon minions normally do. Typically, a dragon minion retains its loyalties to their dragon even when isolated from the dragon. The sylvari in the achievement, however, was able to regain his own mind when isolated from Mordremoth, and only Canach's pushing of him to reconnect with Mordremoth caused him to revert to Mordremoth's control.

Classical dragon minions have a hard switch thrown deep in their psyche - they are loyal to their Elder Dragon above all other loyalties. What Mordremoth did to the sylvari was a more surface-level form of mind control by bombarding them with his wishes until they couldn't tell the difference between his thoughts and their own.

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

That's because Sylvari have the backup of the Pale Tree. They can reconnect to the uncorrupted part of the Dream the Sylvari share and regain their free will. They had a life before joining Mordremoth, so they are different from the rest of the dragon minions that begin their life under the contol of a dragon.

In the last episode, we saw Zhaitan's undead that are no longer the blind followers they used to be, as there's no dragon to command them anymore, but they just don't have any other choice. All they knew was serving Zhaitan and killing in his name, and they just continue out of habit. Still, we almost reasoned with one of them.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@RabbitUp.8294 said:

Mordremoth didn't corrupt Sylvari through the dream. He didn't corrput them at all, he made them, they were Mordrem, his minions. What Pale Tree did was provide a safe haven so that the Sylvari were out of Mordremoth's reach and we able to have free will. What Mordy did in HoT was to reclaim some of his minions.

The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

@draxynnic.3719 said:The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

I ddin't mean reconnecting to Pale Tree as a deliberate effort, or that the connection is broken and has to be re-established, but the very fact there's a part of the Dream that's protected from Mordremoth is because the Pale Tree maintains it. That the Sylvari have an option outside of blindly following Mordy is thanks to the Pale Tree. Sylvari are born with a sense of self, a purpose, and the sum of knowledge gained from their race over the years. Their very consciousness is connected to the Dream. It's all that that offsets Mordremoth's call, how our PC sylvari were able to resist, so that's why I mean by saying Sylvari have an option other than being slaves, thanks to the Pale Tree.

Really, what that sylvari in Rata Novus proved is what I said above, that Mordremoth does not corrupt Sylvari, but reclaims them. They don't gravitate between being dragon minions and not being dragon minions, but between hearing their dragon's command and having their own thought in the safe space provided by the Pale Tree.

So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are created by their dragons, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

@draxynnic.3719 said:The sylvari in Buried Insight doesn't say anything about reconnecting to the Pale Tree. He's simply blocked off from Mordremoth.

Having the protection of the Pale Tree certainly helps (but how is she protected herself?), but the mechanic does seem to be different... and apart from that one grub, the Risen still seem to be loyal to Zhaitan unless cleansed in some fashion. Even with that grub, we don't really know for sure what's going on there - it might still technically be loyal to Zhaitan, but having not received any orders for years its reverted to its natural behaviour.

I ddin't mean reconnecting to Pale Tree as a deliberate effort, or that the connection is broken and has to be re-established, but the very fact there's a part of the Dream that's protected from Mordremoth is because the Pale Tree maintains it. That the Sylvari have an option outside of blindly following Mordy is thanks to the Pale Tree. Sylvari are born with a sense of self, a purpose, and the sum of knowledge gained from their race over the years. Their very consciousness is connected to the Dream. It's how our PC sylvari were able to resist, so that's why I mean by saying Sylvari have an option other than being slaves, thanks to the Pale Tree.

Really, what that sylvari in Rata Novus proved is what I said above, that Mordremoth does not corrupt Sylvari, but reclaims them. They don't gravitate between being dragon minions and not being dragon minions, they are always dragon minions that either hear and follow their dragon's command or cover their ears and have their own thoughts in the safe space provided by the Pale Tree. It's just that the Pale Tree covered their ears for them all those years.

So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are given life directly by their dragon, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not created. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:The remaining dragon's don't gain the minion-raising abilities of the dead dragons, they just gain their magic. Dragons won't just suddenly start raising the dead like Zhaitan or create plant life like Mordremoth. We saw this with Mordy in HoT; he could use death magic to create plant-based clones of living and dead creatures, in addition to making standard Mordrem, but he couldn't raise the dead.I wouldn't consider Taimi correct there. The Pale Tree used the dead and living as templates as well - though as more abstract ideas like destroyers do rather than perfect copies like the Blighting Trees. With the destroyers and Unstable Abomination, we see a clearly defined case of the minions taking on a rotten appearance (Rotting Destroyer and all that) or planty appearance (Vine-Touched Destroyers having actual vines coming out of them). This indicates that taking a domain of another Elder Dragon directly alters one's own minions, and no mordrem has a rotten, deathly appearance aside from wolves, trolls, and wyverns. And about the former two:

Furthermore, in Edge of Destiny we see a fresh icebrood with a caved in face, showing that Jormag could corrupt the dead; and Season 2 mordrem had wolves and trolls which are corrupted living (or perhaps dead) beings as well.

This leaves just the wyvern, which may or may not be the same as the wolves and trolls.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:As for why Sylvari were immune, it's because they were dragon minions, one dragon cannot claim/corrupt/control the minions of the other dragons.

Except that the Pale Tree literally states that she gave protection and the HoT promotions literally state it was through the protection of the Pale Tree (see my first post in this thread). The only form the sylvari have connection to the Pale Tree is, in fact, the Dream.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Actually, there's the exception of Primordus, who doesn't corrupt, but creates his minions from inanimate matter. I guess you could say he corrupts minerals.All Elder Dragons have shown capable to be able to corrupt all the same things. But they have a different preference (for lack of a better term). We were told

in an interview

that Primordus can indeed corrupt the living. He just chooses not to. Similarly, we see Jormag corrupt living animal, dead animal, and land; we see Kralkatorrik corrupt living animal, plant, sky, water, and land; we see Mordremoth corrupt living animal, plant, and land; we see Zhaitan corrupt living animal, dead animal, plant, sky, water, and land.

I'm not so sure of the Inquest experiments having standard affiliations. I say this because there is at least one room where we see risen, icebrood, destroyers, branded, and mordrem working together underneath Alpha's control. It's hard to say which affiliation - if any - Alpha had, but it was able to command all five dragon minion armies all the same.

Of course, this doesn't counter your "the 'forced loyalty' aspect only triggers once" argument, as Alpha could have been exposed to all five energies at the same time.

@RabbitUp.8294 said:So it's true that Sylvari are unusual, but that's because of the Pale Tree, and because they are created by their dragons, while the branded, icebrood and undead were not. Only destroyers are similar, but those are made from minerals, rocks and lava, not living matter.

I'm not really sure we can argue that sylvari were not corrupted beings. While we certainly do see a growth in them due to their being plants, we also see growth in other dragon minions' elements (icebrood start as mostly fleshy but slowly become ice; branded crystals are known to grow; destroyers, when corrupting the living, are said to encase the victim in rocks and slowly liquefy akin to icebrood's slow transformation).

And rather than saying "that's because of the Pale Tree" it seems more to be an unknown happenstance that happened to the Pale Tree that allows such.

About the Sylvari Dream thing:

PC: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it.PaleTree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you.PC: Scarlet?PaleTree: I believe she opened herself to it when she let down the wall of her mind. Mordremoth's corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps.
It doesn't seem from that dialogue that the corruption is used figuratively as "brainwashing" but as actual corruption as it's compared to Zhaitan's.
If her protection were to be taken literally, wouldn't Nightmare Court recieve same treatment as Soundless because Nightmare is just a fraction (assuming it's a part of and not its own thing) of the Dream? Because I doubt Nightmare would be a form of Pale Tree's protection, as it kind of tries to fight the Dream itself?
Since Soundless were a thing during Zhaitan wouldn't we already seen some Sylvari Risen that weren't connected to the Dream?
Dream can't be the only reason Sylvari are/were immune to dragon corruption.

But also.. how are Malyck and other non-Pale Tree Sylvari not just stright-up Mordremoth minions from the beginning? They never had access to Pale Tree's protection to begin with (which makes sense for the Pale Tree-native Soundless). Maybe it works with Malick specifically because he had amnesia and the first Mordrem were very Sylvari-like wimps.

As for the undead realm: isn't every corrupted being technically undead? With Jourmag, he can just make up missing organs/body parts with ice..if not just make ice creatures altogether. But isn't Kralkatorrik's corruption the same? With crystal blocks growing out in every direction of the body I very much doubt his corrupted minions can be ever considered alive in first place. Similarly Mordremoth as Pale Tree did seemingly use humans as a base for Sylvari and in HoT Mord doesn't need the original for the copies to be alive or dead.
It comes to me that Zhaitan just wasn't picky like the rest.

Modremoth doesn't actually "corrupt" the Sylvari as much as he returns them to their default state of being.

When you think about it, the Pale Tree is actually the one doing the corrupting.