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  • A Perma Stealth Deadeye trades their utility skills for other, more combat oriented ones.
    Shadow Step: You can see the circle where the thief can step back to.
    Shadow's Refuge: If you see a circle with a house icon above it, the thief is hiding in there to get stealth. Nice detail to know: he can NOT leave the circle untill all pulses are complete or he looses all stealth. AoE that area if you can to the max.
    Sentries and watchtowers prohibit long periods of stealth. Same with traps
    Ranger's Barrage will complete when started, even if thief stealthes. Arrow direction gives you hint where they are.

    Likely many more other counters that I am not aware of.
    Nothing wrong with thief, if you know how to counter.

  • mtnjkbm.7452mtnjkbm.7452 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    .....................................

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

    FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

    Ok, I'm willing to learn:
    How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)?
    Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched.

    Play soulbeast and just rapidfire them.
    Play dragonhunter and trueshot them.
    Play fresh air ele and combowombo them.
    Play chrono and do what chrono does to them.
    Play dagger pistol thief, basi them and kill them out of stealth to assert dominance. Play sword dagger thief and show them whos the boss of ports.
    Play burn weaver, outsustain easily and pressure them until they run out of cooldowns or ini, then kill or watch them runaway.
    Play burn tempest, use two signets and watch them panic press all their buttons, keep burning until they eventually die.
    Play power dps tempest, reflect all their stuff and watch them not having a good time with their class, while your air minions and the fire elite one, keep attacking.
    Oh or play shortbow power rev and just sevenshot them. Or herold.
    If u cant oneshot, they probably play condi de with trailblazer runes, just like condi p/d thiefs with their meme scorpionwire.
    If thats the case, just ignore them, since they probably have some issues in rl and just want to be understood or someone hurt them at some point.

    Lol. Condi DE. Actually effective condi DE doesn't run trailblazers. And what are "trailblazer runes?"

    Lol. Edited. i meant stats. Yeh i really dont know what condi de's or pd thiefs are running exactly, in the end.. just tanky and condi, thats it. Who cares?

    Except it's not trailblazers.

    Like you can. But malice is built off crits at 100% bonus. So you aren't going to run with no crit in your stats.

    And who cares? You did by posting about it?

    But I don't think that many are running P/D or condi DE. I've seen maybe 1 condi DE in 50. And he was running rifle. And maybe 2 P/D core thieves. Rest were standard D/P or Rifle power. So like, it's not common and not sure why you are singling it out like you've even fought one before.

    I did post a joke! Im sorry if i offended u cause ure maybe playing this build! OP asking for help against de players, and me posting some classes which dont really have problems against thief while making fun of this build, thats all.

    I have no problem against condi thiefs and dont really care what they are running. Fought some, and besides them spamming imob, i never felt bothered.

    I'm not offended, just curious. I don't see so many condi DE so I always wonder what people are talking about when they bring it up.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • purple.6194purple.6194 Member
    edited December 13, 2020

    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

    That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

    Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I do the sneaky-cap thing from time to time, and basically I get terminally bored if I don't have a whole group ready to recap as soon as the RI timer expires.

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    And there it is.
    Your issue is hackers. Hackers who for QoL reasons prefer deadeyes. So because you acknowledge that Anet won't do a thing about it, you just want a flat out nerf or removal of deadeye gameplay. You don't care one bit about other deadeye players who don't hack.
    Anet isn't gonna do yet another overhaul on Deadeye when you can clearly see the resources being spent on Cantha for new elites specialisations.

    Why haven't you yet provided a video proof of a deadeye removing "you are marked" debuff from keep? Is it because the only way is through hacking? It is possible to prevent it from being applied in the first place but you said they removed it.

    Also you must've been on a lengthy break from wvw if you missed out on other "actual changes" too;
    like the duration nerfs to various stealth giving traits and skills which forced DA riflers into SA
    the initiative increase to rifle #4 death's retreat
    Don't think for a second it's enjoyable to get further and further pigeon holed with our options getting diminished

    If you want to speed up the process, I'll play along your schadenfreude:

    • F1 Mark cast time 1s
    • Maleficent 7 ICD 5secs
    • missing an malicious attack drains 2 malice PTS (wouldn't be possible to abuse M7 due to the 5s ICD been proposal)
    • Shadow Meld cast time 2s to give y'all more time to interrupt punish and if shadow meld removes a reveal, endurance regen penalty for 3seconds (daredevil unhindered combatant nerf style)
    • SA trait when revealed 33% DMG reduction nerf to 20%
    • Binding shadow arming vapor trail shows even when the DE source is in stealth to give telegraph counterplay heads-up

    Implement all those, I'll still adapt, play more defensively, become an even more annoying kiter. And you'll still see ppl come whine here, because they died to a Deadeye out there somewhere. It never stops.

  • Apokriphos.7042Apokriphos.7042 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2020

    The biggest issue with this class in small scale roaming is the combination ranged attack specialist with heavily available stealth and evade/leaps.

    We've spoken about a better solution to stealth being 'perfect can't see me' mode. However it doesnt seem Anet balances for small scale in WvW at all. Knowing that, I think the simplest solution would be to normalize the stealth availability to changes made in pvp and compensate the DE and thief in general with more party benefits.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    The biggest issue with this class in small scale roaming is the combination ranged attack specialist with heavily available stealth and evade/leaps.

    We've spoken about a better solution to stealth being 'perfect can't see me' mode. However it doesnt seem Anet balances for small scale in WvW at all. Knowing that, I think the simplest solution would be to normalize the stealth availability to changes made in pvp and compensate the DE and thief in general with more party benefits.

    Which ranged stealth build has heavy evades and leaps?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    The biggest issue with this class in small scale roaming is the combination ranged attack specialist with heavily available stealth and evade/leaps.

    We've spoken about a better solution to stealth being 'perfect can't see me' mode. However it doesnt seem Anet balances for small scale in WvW at all. Knowing that, I think the simplest solution would be to normalize the stealth availability to changes made in pvp and compensate the DE and thief in general with more party benefits.

    Which ranged stealth build has heavy evades and leaps?

    Its been well established in this very thread that thieves of all flavors outclass most other builds in leap potention without cooldown. Combining it wtih easily available stealth and ranged reposition was a recipe for disaster from the start.

    The only saving grace here is that anet doesnt care about the small grp roaming game mode.

    That's fine you don't have to answer then.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 15, 2020

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Apokriphos.7042 said:
    The biggest issue with this class in small scale roaming is the combination ranged attack specialist with heavily available stealth and evade/leaps.

    We've spoken about a better solution to stealth being 'perfect can't see me' mode. However it doesn't seem Anet balances for small scale in WvW at all. Knowing that, I think the simplest solution would be to normalize the stealth availability to changes made in pvp and compensate the DE and thief in general with more party benefits.

    Which ranged stealth build has heavy evades and leaps?

    Its been well established in this very thread that thieves of all flavors outclass most other builds in leap potential without cooldown. Combining it with easily available stealth and ranged reposition was a recipe for disaster from the start.

    The only saving grace here is that anet doesn't care about the small grp roaming game mode.

    Rifle #4 Death's Retreat doesn't have evade. And the way it behaves is that it only ports you after the animation of the projectile trail going backwards reaches the end, that's where your new position is. So combining those two sets of data point: a DE will fully eat to his face everything that's incoming at that start position until he's at the new position. And that's why you'll see many downed DEs where their body is well beyond the range limit of skills. So Death's Retreat will only save a Deadeye when the new position is beyond the range limit of the next incoming skills, not those that were cast before.

    That's why you can't equate leap and evade together and say "The biggest issue with this class in small scale roaming is the combination ranged attack specialist with heavily available stealth and evade/leaps" The only two are Withdraw and Roll for Initiative. That's 2. That's what Kash implied I think, and you missed it (IMHO).

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 17, 2020

    thief needs the same stealth-treament like it had in pvp. There it has an decent amount of invisibility and isnt completely broken like in wvw

    reveal is complete kitten, since it has an incedibly low range and can be dodged..... or even cleansed by deadeyes (not like it prevents stealth anyway)

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 19, 2020

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

    That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

    Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

    Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

    FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

    Ok, I'm willing to learn:
    How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)?
    Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched.

    Read,Duel it.

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    The mount sniff bell, to indicate a stealth enemy may be in the area, is not the counterplay to a perm stealth deadeye.

    So you are saying the skill that doesnt show stealthed players or reveal is not counterplay to permastealth deadeyes?!?!?

    WHY DO I KEEP PLAYING THIS GAME WRONG?!

    good question, but we cannot help u there, dawdly.

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @GenerationX.9178 said:
    I think thief should be deleted from the game. Most thieves spam dodge, stealth or port all day long not to mention most skills are instant.

    And the laserbeams! Don't forget the laserbeams!

    agreed, and i'd also accept to delete thief with lazorbeams, but he might just port to the other side of the map and dodge it :cold_sweat:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    I would not mind that sniff can detect steath players too. Probably the easiest fix to annoy permastealths in keeps...

    It already can. It plays the chime for player detected. However, it doesn't show the position of the stealthed person on mini map.

    what aspirine writes was the original meaning of it, but it got softened up, bc thieves started crying instantly.

    what saerni writes.... is plainly incorrect. you can get a good overview of who is where, roughly, but if the stealth is yet ongoing, you don't see them. only the map lag may be causing u to get a semi-accurate spotting with sniff. warclaw is overall pretty useless by now, and sniff's only real use is to spot a full zerg/blobs position within a limited, barely-out-of-sight range.

    @Caedmon.6798 ".... toi duel the class that hurts you. Its on You,not the spec. Realize this."
    u're either very sarcastic or try to joke here, right? why do u assume everyone wants to duel? who on earth has a billion of gearslots to run roamergear and skillsets just to duel some overbored spvpers? i wreckt enough of them with zergsets in single combat yet, but not bc i wanted, but becuse they'll just chase u and call their buddies if u don't just fight them. thanks to the snailclaw, it got even more easy for these people to force everyone to play on their terms. :-1:

    (also even IF u dueled "a class"... classes have different builds. and you first need to be able to switch to your roamerbuild fast enough before engages happen, that's at least two klicks plus avoiding the warclawdaze at demounting.)

    @CharonXeno.4869
    kinda expect their moves. smallscale players are greedy af, and are superlikely to chase you. turn around, let them run into you, and fire sometimes big bombs in expected pathing. worked way better before the dps nerfs on everything, since thieves literally just exploded against serious damage classes. now for example killing any of them with a hammer rev is way more complicated. u can surely 111 them down, but every move the zergset rev does is extremly slow and predictable.
    what's not working is to reveal deadeyes. ( @SuchosCZ.2167 ) your reveals will rarely be fast enough to cc them on most classes. firing AoE into their position when they set up this stealthing-house thingy is also good, since they always take at least a bit dmg, some even die straight there.

    @aleron.1438 and u think it's better now bc they die in three seconds, from just a more heavy setup or (more common) a combined pew pew of three glasscannons? even in 1v1, it only got harder to kill a thief accidently.

    and no @saerni.2584 ... what @purple.6194 wrote does happen. i even got accidently put under the map on many classes. and yeah u can cast stuff from there. and there's not too few thieves that do this perma-hide and seek play for hours.

    @Apokriphos.7042 i only see too few nerfs towards smallscale. the focus of wvw should be largescale, that's literally what serperates it from spvp.

    @Virdo.1540 has also a point... most revels are so incredibly smallrange that they miss a thief that stands even 400 next to you..

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    The mount sniff bell, to indicate a stealth enemy may be in the area, is not the counterplay to a perm stealth deadeye.

    So you are saying the skill that doesnt show stealthed players or reveal is not counterplay to permastealth deadeyes?!?!?

    WHY DO I KEEP PLAYING THIS GAME WRONG?!

    good question, but we cannot help u there, dawdly.

    @Justine.6351 said:

    @GenerationX.9178 said:
    I think thief should be deleted from the game. Most thieves spam dodge, stealth or port all day long not to mention most skills are instant.

    And the laserbeams! Don't forget the laserbeams!

    agreed, and i'd also accept to delete thief with lazorbeams, but he might just port to the other side of the map and dodge it :cold_sweat:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @aspirine.6852 said:
    I would not mind that sniff can detect steath players too. Probably the easiest fix to annoy permastealths in keeps...

    It already can. It plays the chime for player detected. However, it doesn't show the position of the stealthed person on mini map.

    what aspirine writes was the original meaning of it, but it got softened up, bc thieves started crying instantly.

    what saerni writes.... is plainly incorrect. you can get a good overview of who is where, roughly, but if the stealth is yet ongoing, you don't see them. only the map lag may be causing u to get a semi-accurate spotting with sniff. warclaw is overall pretty useless by now, and sniff's only real use is to spot a full zerg/blobs position within a limited, barely-out-of-sight range.

    @Caedmon.6798 ".... toi duel the class that hurts you. Its on You,not the spec. Realize this."
    u're either very sarcastic or try to joke here, right? why do u assume everyone wants to duel? who on earth has a billion of gearslots to run roamergear and skillsets just to duel some overbored spvpers? i wreckt enough of them with zergsets in single combat yet, but not bc i wanted, but becuse they'll just chase u and call their buddies if u don't just fight them. thanks to the snailclaw, it got even more easy for these people to force everyone to play on their terms. :-1:

    (also even IF u dueled "a class"... classes have different builds. and you first need to be able to switch to your roamerbuild fast enough before engages happen, that's at least two klicks plus avoiding the warclawdaze at demounting.)

    @CharonXeno.4869
    kinda expect their moves. smallscale players are greedy af, and are superlikely to chase you. turn around, let them run into you, and fire sometimes big bombs in expected pathing. worked way better before the dps nerfs on everything, since thieves literally just exploded against serious damage classes. now for example killing any of them with a hammer rev is way more complicated. u can surely 111 them down, but every move the zergset rev does is extremly slow and predictable.
    what's not working is to reveal deadeyes. ( @SuchosCZ.2167 ) your reveals will rarely be fast enough to cc them on most classes. firing AoE into their position when they set up this stealthing-house thingy is also good, since they always take at least a bit dmg, some even die straight there.

    @aleron.1438 and u think it's better now bc they die in three seconds, from just a more heavy setup or (more common) a combined pew pew of three glasscannons? even in 1v1, it only got harder to kill a thief accidently.

    and no @saerni.2584 ... what @purple.6194 wrote does happen. i even got accidently put under the map on many classes. and yeah u can cast stuff from there. and there's not too few thieves that do this perma-hide and seek play for hours.

    @Apokriphos.7042 i only see too few nerfs towards smallscale. the focus of wvw should be largescale, that's literally what serperates it from spvp.

    @Virdo.1540 has also a point... most revels are so incredibly smallrange that they miss a thief that stands even 400 next to you..

    What is incorrect about saying it plays a chime? It does. I also said it doesn't ping the mini map, which it doesn't.

    And your counter to my saying it is extremely boring and unlikely is to double down on claims of map hacking (which doesn't require thief at all) and saying people do hide in keeps for hours. Which is to say, I never actually said it never happens, just that it is so unlikely to happen/be worth it for a thief that it isn't a real problem. So, sure, we can argue past one another but like hiding in a keep for hours on end that would be boring and unproductive.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • I play thief for like... 8years in WvW. The only thing that needs to be removed from thief is teleport. Then DE or DrD or whoever can hide in keeps as much as they want.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dangus.6572 said:
    I play thief for like... 8years in WvW. The only thing that needs to be removed from thief is teleport. Then DE or DrD or whoever can hide in keeps as much as they want.

    All teleports? Why?

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dangus.6572 said:
    I play thief for like... 8years in WvW. The only thing that needs to be removed from thief is teleport. Then DE or DrD or whoever can hide in keeps as much as they want.

    I hope u meant portal tele and not tele in general cuz kitten...

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dangus.6572 said:
    I play thief for like... 8years in WvW. The only thing that needs to be removed from thief is teleport. Then DE or DrD or whoever can hide in keeps as much as they want.

    I hope u meant portal tele and not tele in general cuz kitten...

    He probably does. I mean, it's not like anyone asked for portal, or preparations in general really, just for traps to be functional.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Terrorhuz.4695Terrorhuz.4695 Member ✭✭✭

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

    FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

    Ok, I'm willing to learn:
    How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)?
    Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched.

    Play soulbeast and just rapidfire them.
    Play dragonhunter and trueshot them.
    Play fresh air ele and combowombo them.
    Play chrono and do what chrono does to them.
    Play dagger pistol thief, basi them and kill them out of stealth to assert dominance. Play sword dagger thief and show them whos the boss of ports.
    Play burn weaver, outsustain easily and pressure them until they run out of cooldowns or ini, then kill or watch them runaway.
    Play burn tempest, use two signets and watch them panic press all their buttons, keep burning until they eventually die.
    Play power dps tempest, reflect all their stuff and watch them not having a good time with their class, while your air minions and the fire elite one, keep attacking.
    Oh or play shortbow power rev and just sevenshot them. Or herold.
    If u cant oneshot, they probably play condi de with trailblazer stats, just like condi p/d thiefs with their meme scorpionwire.
    If thats the case, just ignore them, since they probably have some issues in rl and just want to be understood or someone hurt them at some point.

    Chrono against deadeye?
    Mmmmmh.
    MMMMMMMMMMMMMH.
    MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMH.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Terrorhuz.4695 said:

    @mtnjkbm.7452 said:

    @CharonXeno.4869 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

    FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

    Ok, I'm willing to learn:
    How do I counter a (near) perma-stealth Deadeye? What profession and build would you suggest to win against one in, say, at least 2/3rd of all encounters (as you can fine-tune your build specifically against that one type of opponent, while they obviously need to run tradeoffs to deal with different types)?
    Mind you, counter/win here means "kill the opponent" and not just "don't get killed myself", so please include details on how to keep the Deadeye from escaping (be it via stealth or other means) when they notice they are outmatched.

    Play soulbeast and just rapidfire them.
    Play dragonhunter and trueshot them.
    Play fresh air ele and combowombo them.
    Play chrono and do what chrono does to them.
    Play dagger pistol thief, basi them and kill them out of stealth to assert dominance. Play sword dagger thief and show them whos the boss of ports.
    Play burn weaver, outsustain easily and pressure them until they run out of cooldowns or ini, then kill or watch them runaway.
    Play burn tempest, use two signets and watch them panic press all their buttons, keep burning until they eventually die.
    Play power dps tempest, reflect all their stuff and watch them not having a good time with their class, while your air minions and the fire elite one, keep attacking.
    Oh or play shortbow power rev and just sevenshot them. Or herold.
    If u cant oneshot, they probably play condi de with trailblazer stats, just like condi p/d thiefs with their meme scorpionwire.
    If thats the case, just ignore them, since they probably have some issues in rl and just want to be understood or someone hurt them at some point.

    Chrono against deadeye?
    Mmmmmh.
    MMMMMMMMMMMMMH.
    MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMH.

    Notice that unlike every other class, the chrono just does "what chrono does".

    Ie hand their balls on a silver platter to the thief.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

    Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

    • Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

    And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

    Simple and effective.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

    Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

    • Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

    And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

    Simple and effective.

    That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    [still not understanding stealth despite having that DE avatar on the forum]

    This idea is as worthless now as it was multiple times you've posted it before. Stealth without posibility to move is absolutely useless and the only ""value"" your idea gives to it just promotes stupid playstyles of sitting in one place waiting for an oblivious opponent that has no way to say you're there. It's not a rework, it's a removal at best.

  • TwoGhosts.6790TwoGhosts.6790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    Stealth in this game is just badly implemented. At minimum there should be a speed reduction in stealth.

    Deadeye, for competitive modes, is one of the worst game design decisions I have ever seen.

    It is fun for exactly one player.

    And I worry about the sort of player who gravitates towards Deadeye as a rewarding experience. I ignore players of Deadeyes whenever I can. Much as I would probably do in real life.

  • Touchme.1097Touchme.1097 Member ✭✭✭

    Deadeye has little mobility due to the kneel feature, it has to rely on stealth in order to survive. Why don't you run stealth reveal and learn how to counterplay instead of asking for nerfs which would cripple a whole profession and make it useless? All thieves rely on the stealth mechanic to make up for the lack of block and lack of heavy armor.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

    Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

    • Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

    And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

    Simple and effective.

    That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

    I like your idea. But deadeye can remove the revealed with Shadow Meld. That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a new reveal which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

    That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of Death Judgement which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like Spotter's Shot from invisibility immobilise you then a Three Round Burst and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

    Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

    That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth. The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

    I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @purple.6194 said:
    fix perm stealth keep hiding and porting.

    ?? you ask make one button and deadeye always be in stealth as should?

    I know wvw is dead, the siege side of things is dead

    yes, and I like it. That dead mode is good thing to make good fun on weekend for me.

    The mount sniff bell, to indicate a stealth enemy may be in the area, is not the counterplay to a perm stealth deadeye.

    why you think should be any counterplay ? NO

    It isn't, there are so many things wrong with stealth in gw2

    yes, I very missed my one button and get true perma stealth

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    I guess it's time (again) to explain to people how target painters/traps/watchtower actually work.

    Because "paint trap is instantly cleansed" is misinformation, and most of the replies in this thread display an incredible lack of understanding of the game mechanics at play.

    There are three different effects in play:

    Marked
    This is the effect applied by target painters/watchtower/sentries.

    Marked targets are visible on the map to the team controlling the source of the effect.

    When you are marked, entering stealth applies detected!

    Detected!
    This effect is applied when you enter stealth while marked

    If you stay in stealth for more than 2 seconds you will be pulled out of stealth and the revealed debuff will be placed on you.

    Revealed
    This debuff prevents you from gaining stealth, it is applied by detected! and various player abilities.

    The Deadeye elite skill Shadow Meld (2 charges) can cleanse revealed

    Now, it is important to understand that Deadeye can only cleanse the revealed status. They remain marked if hit by target painters (or seen by a sentry/tower)

    Therefore, if they use shadow meld to cleanse reveal, and re-enter stealth, they will immediately be detected! again and revealed 2 seconds later.

    Note that non-Deadeye thieves can not Cleanse the revealed debuff at all.

    It's important to understand these mechanics correctly! And once you do, you will realise that throwing a Target Painter on a Deadeye immediately invalidates their entire ability to actually play the game.

    "Oh but it's too much effort/hard to use a Target Painter"

    Well, then don't complain.

    For the low cost of 1 cheap consumable and 10 supply you can render them unable to play the game, and probably dead. If that's too much effort for you, that's on you.

  • Helicity.3416Helicity.3416 Member ✭✭✭

    To continue, the reason Deadeye has the Shadow Meld elite, is because they do not have access to the active defenses and evasion of Daredevil, and lessened access to the mobility options of both core and DD due to the added demand on endurance for applying stealth and having the rifle equipped.

    Fighting Deadeyes can be challenging, unfortunately their core design is not very counterplay friendly outside of using a target painter, and at the same time they mechanically would not work if you took away their strong stealth abilities.

    This is obviously not the best design, but I disagree with the incredible amount of complaining done by people who can't even be bothered to look up how stealth mechanics actually work.

    I play Deadeye sometimes, and I kill Deadeyes on literally all my characters, it's absolutely doable.
    All you need to do is understand and play smart.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

    I think it's important to clarify that nothing about your concept is difficult to see. It's just that it's an awful idea and you don't understand mechanic you're ""trying to balance""

    I mean, you claim you want to balance it, but in reality you're just trying to remove it -the thing here is that you're mainly targetting deadeye espec (change from stealth to something unusable) and thief in general ("stealth working only outside of 600 units", which renders its class mechanic on melee weapons nearly unusable, while leaving it pretty much intact for the defensive purposes for other classes -like... you know, your ranger will still easly dash away while gaining that stealth outside of 600 units, what a coincidence :o It's even more hilarious when you remember in another thread you've claimed you want stealth to be an offensive effect instead of a defensive one).
    Either you don't understand what you're talking about or you're just purposefully targetting the class you don't like and pretend you're "balancing" it. At this point it might as well be the latter seeing how many times it's been already explained to you while you still copy-paste your awful idea around.

  • Doug.4930Doug.4930 Member ✭✭✭

    Or you know, you guys could just run a dragon hunter. In which case the only thing you need to consider when fighting a DE is whether or not your inventory has enough space for the bag you are about to receive.

    The only valid complaint is the same as its always been. D/P thief being able to attack from stealth with absolutely no tell whatsoever. Just whack, 6k opening from stealth. Best way to address that is to fix stealth stacking. Limit the amount of individual stealth stacks. Preferably stacks gained through combo fields that D/P in particular is the most effective at abusing. Using dodges and utilities for stealth is far more cost heavy than spending initiative when your main damage skill is not dependent on initiative.

    To continue being fair also the above changes should be contingent with marked being reworked in WvW. You can't ask for justified nerfs whilst being happy with a mechanic existing in the game that negates an entire thief traitline and two thief weapon sets. Two seconds followed by a 6 second reveal punishes the class in general not only those abusing perma stealth.

    Also yea hiding in keeps is too easy now that anet has given us build/gear templates. Just make a tank thief build and no group with less than 10 people is going to be able to kill you.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

    Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

    • Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

    And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

    Simple and effective.

    That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

    I like your idea. But deadeye can remove the revealed with Shadow Meld. That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a new reveal which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

    That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of Death Judgement which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like Spotter's Shot from invisibility immobilise you then a Three Round Burst and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

    Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

    That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth. The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

    I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

    I think his idea shouldn't have to take Shadow Meld into consideration because that Elite Skill should be replaced. A DE Elite skill should be something that strengthens Kneel stance, like adds some defense and counter measures and allows temporary slow movement in crouch or something. I've also suggested before having some kind of proximity visual filter (only visual, while stealth mechanics still apply) that would force a stealth user to plan their resources and utilities to land a deceptive opener or heavy hit, but then people would need to be cool with something like that being a thing, which they most likely wouldn't be and there would be endless threads about that.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    I think we all agree with the notion stealth is trash mechanic. Not only for thief but also for druid, dragon hunter and engineer.
    I'd like to say the stealth on dodge from Silent Scope and the revealed removal from Shadow Meld are very toxic mechanics at the same level of Ancient Seeds.

    But if Anet remove those mechanics the Deadeye will be really useless. And it will not address the main issue wich is a mechanic with no counter like it is stealth. Any other nerfs to the class will not work as the thief can circumvent all the nerfs to stealth or mobility (which is also an issue in a class with no cooldowns when it can reset the fight whenever they want but the enemies can't reset the cooldowns).

    As such i will again propose this:

    • First : While stealthed the character enters combat. This is very important as i'm able to mount while in stealth.
    • Deadeye converts all incoming stealth to extended Camouflage . For each application of stealth it is converted to camouflage plus additional seconds so the effect last longer. Camouflage makes the deadeye invisible but it can not perform any actions, not even movement. I gains stealth in Death's Retreat and in Shadow Flare and Shadow Swap which is a cantrip with no use. So everytime it uses a teleport can be seen for less than a second.
    • Stealth from thief and smoke fields only makes invisible to enemies farther than 600 units. Any enemy closer than that to the thief will be able to see the thief but not reveal it. A trait could be so the range is reduced to 300 only for the thief. This will fix not only the Thief but also any other means of stealth like the druid, the trapper runes, etc...
    • Stealth from mesmers works the other way around. The mesmer is invisible to enemies in a range of 600 with a trait to make it wider up to 900.

    And like that we fix many issues and open squad spots for thieves and mesmers, as the first will guarantee stealth while approaching while the other stealth on close.

    Or you could just tweak existing mechanics to actually have some meaning:

    • Each second someone remains in stealth adds a second to revealed which gets applied when the person exits stealth (either by attacking another player or stacked stealth expiring).

    And there you go. Problem solved. If a deadeye want to stay stealthed for 1 minute, he can be. But afterwards he cannot stealth for 1 minute. If a tp theif want to stealth for 5s, appear to do a single attack and stealth again then infinetily repeat it as they teleport back and forward... nope. You can stealth for 5 seconds sure. But that means you cant for 5 seconds.

    Simple and effective.

    That's a more realistic compromise. Silent scope isn't even that bad, you have spend Initiative bouncing out to keep distance or to swap and evade some which rifle doesn't have. Guy mentioning no cooldowns like everything is free is a good preview to the rest of his idea.

    I like your idea. But deadeye can remove the revealed with Shadow Meld. That elite has 2 charges. How are you proposing to fix that? Are you thinking now adding a new reveal which can't be removed? And then Anet adds a new stealth which can remove that reveal? That is the equivalent to power creep but for invisibility.

    That's why i thought about camouflage. The idea is to allow the DE to be stealthed for long periods of time with the only requirement to not to perform actions. Also Camouflage would fix the fact you only see the DE attacks when they hit you (with the only exception of Death Judgement which can be circumvented by using quickness so the 1 second precast is minimized) . Which means the DE can land an attack like Spotter's Shot from invisibility immobilise you then a Three Round Burst and go back into stealth while you are still bussy cleansing the immob.

    Camouflage would disappear as soon as the DE hit the action button in opposition to when the projectile hit you, which gives the player the opportunity to perform a counter play if the target is quick enough. Now the first impact is hit guaranteed. I understand the concept may be difficult to see but there is a big difference between stealth and camouflage.

    That's why i came up wit the idea of the visibility radius for normal stealth. The point is to give the target the possibility to dodge or perform an action and to understand what happened even if that margin is very slim. Right now i can one shot some glass eles or mesmers even before they can do anything.

    I see it as a very cheesy mechanic which i understand is very unfun to play against.

    I think his idea shouldn't have to take Shadow Meld into consideration because that Elite Skill should be replaced. A DE Elite skill should be something that strengthens Kneel stance, like adds some defense and counter measures and allows temporary slow movement in crouch or something. I've also suggested before having some kind of proximity visual filter (only visual, while stealth mechanics still apply) that would force a stealth user to plan their resources and utilities to land a deceptive opener or heavy hit, but then people would need to be cool with something like that being a thing, which they most likely wouldn't be and there would be endless threads about that.

    Anet changes other skills willy nilly so Purity Of Purpose can hit the thief too, yes.

    gaggle - /ˈɡaɡ(ə)l/ - noun
    A disorderly group of Asura.
    "The gaggle of Asura tried to agree on whether a phase-shifted thermonuclear energy matrix was sufficiently powerful for a device capable of heating bread"

  • PrinceValentine.9320PrinceValentine.9320 Member ✭✭
    edited January 4, 2021

    I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @PrinceValentine.9320 said:
    I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

    Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.
    It's really a L2P thing.

    When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

    And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @PrinceValentine.9320 said:
    I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

    Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.
    It's really a L2P thing.

    When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

    And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

    Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

    Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @PrinceValentine.9320 said:
    I saw someone on Map Chat complained about DE while she was running a pew pew ranger build with LB. Told her to toughen up her build and drop the longbow. I see a lot more newbies coming in to WvW. That's good, although it may take some time for them to change their build until they get owned several times. Most thieves will just run away after they figured out they can't down you in 1 to 2 hits unless they really want to spend time dueling you.

    Sic'em + Longbow shreds DEs ez tho.
    It's really a L2P thing.

    When DEs show up for their Spotter's spam/DJ, hit them with LB 4 > LB 2 and Sic'em and they usually either drop dead or are forced to Shadowstep away + Stealth spam while trying to get OOC.

    And if they don't Stealth spam, yur 1500 range Autos will pick them off.

    Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

    Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

    If you're trying to catch someone, he did mention they'll either drop or be forced to bounce. Getting hammered by that LB rollout is dicey even with a smart stat spread, and if any of your mitigation gets stripped even a chunky health bar will burn fast. One followup pull or something should clinch it.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    Is not that simple thou, a Condi DE is as annoying as the power version and you don't kill it that easily. Even a valkyrie or marauder DE is very though. Of course those builds use the constant stealth so they behave like a bruiser instead a glass.

    Glass version it is true is very easy to catch with the knockback. Nobody uses glass version of DE.

    Even after damage nerfs, not even Minstrels builds can walk away from 25% damage boosted 25 Vuln Rapidfire without a few holes in them.
    They may survive yes, but they will be forced to ooc because if yu are going to re-engage with a Deadeye vs someone with 1500 range autos and Mr Smoke Assault, yu have another thing coming.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

    That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

    Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

    Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

    Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Biermeister.4678 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

    That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

    Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

    Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

    Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

    Oh don't worry. Most people using hacks aren't trying to hide it.

    I fought a rev the other day. Soon as he got downed he disappeared. Later he started teleporting into camps right in front of me and others.

    Permastealth doesn't hide hackers because 99% of hackers aren't running thief and don't even bother running builds with stealth either.

    Professions I've seen hacking in the last year:
    1. Many core engineers
    2. Many core guardians/firebrands
    3. A single rev

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Staying in the shadow for an extended time always costs some initatives or some certain ablilities. Want to take Deadeye down so badly? Land all of the burst damage you have on him while he is visible to your eyes as soon as possible.

  • @saerni.2584 said:

    @Biermeister.4678 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @purple.6194 said:
    Well, hit two pages, Ladies and gents, original post just referring to deadeye and their ability to hide in keeps forever and port groups in from outside outer wall directly to lord room, ( yes this is a thing). No it is not a matter of strategy or skill. Yes you can do it with core and daredevil, it is easier with deadeye, people who do it aren't god gamer's I know 10 people across the NA servers ( there are more obviously merely restricting it to advance my point here) that do it for up six to hours during their respective timezones. 8 of those 10 have 600+ ping with unstable connection, 4 out of this group bug under the map to build untargettable cats from underneath. No they wont get banned its been years . While this is happening bl keeps becomes largely indefencible, redbl in particular is that much more vulnerable with the keeps being far easier to hide in and response time on that shithouse map being that much longer. As a result the keeps go to paper while the thieve's and squads that use them ktrain it up and just wait for them to logoff before bothering to upgrade on the bl's. This has its impact on everything else but again just one step at a time,

    I said fix deadeye's and not fix thief for one simple reason, deadeye is the easiest to do this on, therefore that is what the keep hider's use. keep it as basic as possible, this does not need to get into the weeds of confusing concepts.
    If there was a skill element at all, fair enough its just an odd bad gameplay minigame within the game for players to play. There is not, this is obviously another unintentional result of throwing kitten at a wall without any followup.

    I am not talking about roaming, issues with stealth generally, or strategies to 1shot thieves with rangers' cus thats solid gameplay! That is a whole other issue that obviously needs solving but again one baby step at a time. Up until this month there has been no reason to even bring it up, i don't think the forums are of much value at all, but again simply here since there was some actual wvw changes that even indicate someone is looking at wvw at all

    ALSO can't resist, INB4 git gud round 2 :)

    Lol. Clearly just making up examples. "I know a guy." "They are all hacking/exploiting under the map." "Six hours a day kek."

    That sounds really boring. Kittens and puppies level of "why would anyone even try that for 20 minutes let alone 5+ hours?"

    Oh right. Because it doesn't happen.

    Also, why is permastealth even an issue if he's talking about hackers? If these people are untargetable due to being under the map, them being thieves is wholly irrelevant. If the deadeye is hiding in a keep and doing it legitimately without hacking, the fact that hackers exist is wholly irrelevant. Just sounds like an attempt to link thieves to hackers in the hope they get nerfed, frankly.

    Because permastelth hides the hack and that is the problem

    Oh don't worry. Most people using hacks aren't trying to hide it.

    I fought a rev the other day. Soon as he got downed he disappeared. Later he started teleporting into camps right in front of me and others.

    Permastealth doesn't hide hackers because 99% of hackers aren't running thief and don't even bother running builds with stealth either.

    Professions I've seen hacking in the last year:
    1. Many core engineers
    2. Many core guardians/firebrands
    3. A single rev

    Then you have the Camp Bot DH that spawns in the middle of the camp every 5 min that was a good one to watch and kill over and over

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Even after damage nerfs, not even Minstrels builds can walk away from 25% damage boosted 25 Vuln Rapidfire without a few holes in them.
    They may survive yes, but they will be forced to ooc because if yu are going to re-engage with a Deadeye vs someone with 1500 range autos and Mr Smoke Assault, yu have another thing coming.

    Well if i get knocked back in my DE obviously i will go into stealth and go out of range. The pesky RapidFire like any other channelled skills will follow you.
    Just one correction, rapidfire will not apply 25 vuln as the maximum it can apply is 10 stacks (1 by hit). Also each impact from the rapid fire is very weak (0.275 each for a total of 2.75), the only way that skill can be a real problem is eating a big bunch of arrows.

    That's why any pewpew will tell you about a single dodge even if you get some heat it will not be that threatening. And then you have 60s to finish it, before the next OWP is available again.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @Widmo.3186 said:
    To fix deadeye you have to delete it from the game. This spec shouldn't exist from the very beginning. Period.

    Where did the thief hurt you ? Most of you aint even soloing cus you lack the skill. You run in a group and get picked out and come to the forum to complain. You have Zero experience and didnt bother to take the time to duel the class that hurts you. Its on You,not the spec. Realize this.

    FYI when i ever had issues facing a certain spec or build i spend Hours dueling it and learning how to counter. If you aint up to that task,you shouldnt be complaining.

    And most people don't understand the counter profession/build system.

    If you are a power oneshot mesmer with 16k hp and you keep going against thieves and losing you cannot go cry on the forum how broken thief is because simply counters your profession and build.

    Same as thief going against sic'em rangers all day. You can't complain.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    Just one correction, rapidfire will not apply 25 vuln as the maximum it can apply is 10 stacks (1 by hit). Also each impact from the rapid fire is very weak (0.275 each for a total of 2.75), the only way that skill can be a real problem is eating a big bunch of arrows.

    Opening Strike.
    Well yea it's not 25, more like 20~

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.