What would bring more players regularly to DRMs? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home Living World

What would bring more players regularly to DRMs?

13>

Comments

  • Mungo Zen.9364Mungo Zen.9364 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:
    If the DRM continue as they currently are then I will do the minimum required to get through the story and base achievements. I would suggest the following changes:

    1 - Make Squad Sized DRM, scaling mob count and difficulty
    I fail to understand the intent of limiting DRM to 5 players. As such, I feel that making DRM work in groups larger than 5 and up to 50 would benefit the overall playability.

    2 - In Squad Sized DRM, bake CM into 'pre-events' where completing the pre unlocks the CM
    If the group can pull of the pre-events, then they can likely pull off the CM, scale rewards accordingly

    3 - Give each Squad Sized DRM a set start time once every 1 hour (expanding to every 2 hours assuming additional DRM are released)
    By having a focused start time every 20-30 minutes, players will have a target time to engage the DRM they want to play.

    4 - Retain DRM for 1-5 players as 'on demand' content, but also as the primary way of engaging with the story elements.
    In the above Squad size DRM, the story elements could be toned down, for example all the dialogue during the escort in Metrica.

    There is an argument for giving DRM farmable value similar to other content currently available. However I would be far more likely to do DRM dailies if Squad Sized DRM was an option, regardless of the net value.

    The content is designed for 5 man and scaling downward, see the interviews regarding DRMs' rationale on massivelyop.

    Many skills don't scale past 5 players anyway and fractals are largely successful along with Living Story : those are all 5 man.

    I tried searching for developer reasoning for making DRM and the only thing I can find is reference to them finding the scaling of 10 player content down to 1 player was harder than scaling down from 5. As story instances have been 'generally' available to groups of players that 'generally' can all engage with the story, why did DRM require so much additional tech? Why does this selection of stories need a new hybrid instanced content type?

    If anyone can link directly to developer information about why they built DRM (as opposed to existing methods), what they were meant to accomplish, please do.

    Having worked in software development, we term this type of release MVP or Minimum Viable Product. An MVP release will technically hit the goals of the release, but rarely do so in an elegant or logical fashion. In this case, Anet can state 'We released new instanced content, we released new story content, we added new skins and rewards, we added new currency, we added overworld events" and perhaps more. But while we can't argue that they did these things, we can argue that they did so in a successful, logical, or meaningful way.

    An MVP release usually is the result of rushing out a project whose goals were not clearly defined. I can of course give a pass for this past year, but would argue that DRM were half baked from the start and need more attention at the design table to meet a better standard as a new form of instanced group content.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2021

    @Mungo Zen.9364 said:

    An MVP release usually is the result of rushing out a project whose goals were not clearly defined. I can of course give a pass for this past year, but would argue that DRM were half baked from the start and need more attention at the design table to meet a better standard as a new form of instanced group content.

    I'd say the MVP concept is (rightfully) the prevailing theme of Champions. I hope ANet understands just how far off the mark the entire Saga turned out to be for many players, and is just looking to wrap it up with the minimum amount of effort for a barely acceptable end product.

    For me (and I suspect, many other long time players who are still set on buying EoD) DRMs don't need any improvement - not because they're not terrible, but because we just want it to be over and have no interest in them . However, I am slightly concerned that those less committed to GW2 will end up disengaging for good if Champions drops the ball too hard. I personally don't think EoD will be anywhere near as poorly executed as the Saga or Champions, so while disappointing, Champions doesn't really change my desire to get EoD and continue with GW2. I can see how someone with far less experience with the game wouldn't share that position, and that's worrying.

  • Fleabite.7528Fleabite.7528 Member ✭✭✭

    The Volcanic Stormcaller weapons are such a rare DRM drop that the TP presently only has 9 of the 16 models on sale - at an average price of 404 gold each.

    So there you have it: unobtainable current content, including a Mastery Point. Nice job, Anet.

  • rrusse.7058rrusse.7058 Member ✭✭✭

    As others have mentioned. Scaling them work for groups as well as solo would help the interaction with the content. Clarity on the reward and systems that go along with it would help as well. What is even the point of having multiple currencies for each specific faction? Each faction has unique rewards for a week and you have to wait for them to rotate in to buy them?

    Since when is waiting for rewards a fun experience?

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They already scale for groups and solo though.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rrusse.7058 said:
    As others have mentioned. Scaling them work for groups as well as solo would help the interaction with the content. Clarity on the reward and systems that go along with it would help as well. What is even the point of having multiple currencies for each specific faction? Each faction has unique rewards for a week and you have to wait for them to rotate in to buy them?

    Since when is waiting for rewards a fun experience?

    As Ayrilana.1396 said they already scale and the rewards for fraction are 1 week when the release then they dont come back anymore so you can safely use up your crystal bloom and ebon vanguard (apparently the ebon vanguard ones are bugged atm) if your still holding on to any of those.

  • rrusse.7058rrusse.7058 Member ✭✭✭

    @Linken.6345 said:

    As Ayrilana.1396 said they already scale and the rewards for fraction are 1 week when the release then they dont come back anymore so you can safely use up your crystal bloom and ebon vanguard (apparently the ebon vanguard ones are bugged atm) if your still holding on to any of those.

    Bugged? Oh great. Hopefully they'll fix them with the next patch.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The npcs are just as weak as tree leaves, in any DRM, 3 Npcs excorting is just bad, wuld make way far more sense, that on our way we found npcs in struggles fighting destroyers and recruiting them along us (NPCS that are, btw, here in the map, at those locations outside of the instance): For Brisban as example, you start with 3 sylvari, then you recruit 3 nightmare courts, then you recruit 3 skritts. Is that hard to put in place? For Gandarran, it can be pirates and lion's guard, for metrica, it can be researchers and inquest. See what I did here, I put faction, an allied one, and one evil one all together, to give the feeling that this apocalyptic destroyer invasion is affecting everyone.

    Why it doesn't worth it to me clearly: The foes don't drop good loot, by that, I mean, they could drop at least some factions shards and currencies. Or even having a slow chance for volcanic weapons, god they are destroyers, and the set is called volcanic doesn't it make sense?
    Once the first part of DRM is finished, somehow, the destroyers that were occupied assaulting the outpost just disappear. Does it make sense? They want to kill those citizens, they aren't here, to have just a 5 minutes screen time right? The final chest doesn't reward significiant loot, for same time it is better to me to do fractals, you know what? Even a leather farm in doric will give me more gold coins than those DRMS! The company said not so long ago, that strikes had "the goal to guide players into raid, like a transition platform": I don't see how that will push me into raid, the hidden lair of snowmen yes It gave me a spark, but those, no. The content feels rushed and that method of delivering content is non adapted:

    Take, freezie snowman lair, that mini raid that got released during wintersrday, why, why for the six or eternal alchemy sake they didn't released DRMS as mini raids too?
    -10 players
    -3 trying to find the origin of the destroyers energy disruptions/spikes
    -4 Helping to defend the outpost with static environmental weapons available to prevent capture from the foes.
    -3 preparing big weapon against big champions arriving, like a lane of chak gerent. (You see, like that cannon on the pact mothership against zhaithan, or something like that): Coming quite rapidly from the main fissure toward the outpost.
    -Rewards increasing depending and what task you did with the group: Saving citizen, repairing, killing destroyer amount...
    But in addition, how many elite ones killed, if you prevented the foes to kill allies or capturing the place.
    -Bosses with real mechanics, even Freezie had better mechanics.
    -All of that in 13 minutes. Simultaneously the three tasks. After doing the pre expedition ones during 3 minutes.

    It is a fight to survive, unexpected assault, it can have a fail version too, if you fail like you gonna get, dunno, gold rank if you did anything, citizens and you retreating, and if successfull, diamond rank. But rewards that really matter, since steel warband give you 1g once completed, here, like a dungeon, give at least 50 silvers, good 20 tokens, possibility to have ascended box of armor/weapon and a certain chance to have a volcanic weapon (1/3 or 1/4) chances. Since they are strikes too, for the sake of it, make the DRM reward crystals, the ones you exchange with Smoxxi.

    Shiny links, take a look!
    ->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    ->Project: ASURAN/PRIMORDIUS EXPANSION available on WIKI.
    ->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
    ->NEW Asurapedia

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Solvar.7953 said:
    I see lots of comments of 'make rewards better', and while that would certain draw some players to it, I don't really think that is a good fix or necessarily a good direction to the game.
    Effectively what Anet is doing in that case is paying players to play poor content. This sounds like most jobs, where the employer is paying the employee to do something that they otherwise wouldn't do.
    Basing a game on that seems like a poor idea - mostly because at some point the players will realize that they could instead play game X, in which the content is actually enjoyable to play.

    Then you have an issue with the whole genre of MMOs which generally have some repetition but it boils down to whether it is optional to be on an even footing or not. At least things usually don't die in one hit here (the definition of grind basically) and it's optional content as far as repeats (even the CM achievements are optional).

    No, things dying in one hit is not the definition of grind.

    There is nothing wrong with repetition. It becomes only a grind if players repeat (over and over again) content they do not like just for the rewards (currency, items, etc.) and it becomes more work than fun. If repeating the content is fun for a player, its not a grind (for that player).

    I agree with @Solvar.7953: Making the content better, so more players have fun playing it (and have fun repeating it) would be a better solution than increasing the rewards.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zok.4956 said:

    No, things dying in one hit is not the definition of grind.

    There is nothing wrong with repetition. It becomes only a grind if players repeat (over and over again) content they do not like just for the rewards (currency, items, etc.) and it becomes more work than fun. If repeating the content is fun for a player, its not a grind (for that player).

    I agree with @Solvar.7953: Making the content better, so more players have fun playing it (and have fun repeating it) would be a better solution than increasing the rewards.

    In most Asian MMO grind-fests , killing things over and over that die in one hit at their spawn because you are geared such that they are trivial is the grind.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Infusion.7149 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    No, things dying in one hit is not the definition of grind.

    There is nothing wrong with repetition. It becomes only a grind if players repeat (over and over again) content they do not like just for the rewards (currency, items, etc.) and it becomes more work than fun. If repeating the content is fun for a player, its not a grind (for that player).

    I agree with @Solvar.7953: Making the content better, so more players have fun playing it (and have fun repeating it) would be a better solution than increasing the rewards.

    In most Asian MMO grind-fests , killing things over and over that die in one hit at their spawn because you are geared such that they are trivial is the grind.

    The grind (for players that do not like this type of gameplay) is not that it is easy to kill things. The grind is doing the killing over and over without liking it.

    And I am glad that gw2 is not "most Asian MMO".

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    @Zok.4956 said:
    The grind (for players that do not like this type of gameplay) is not that it is easy to kill things. The grind is doing the killing over and over without liking it.

    And I am glad that gw2 is not "most Asian MMO".

    Well if they reduced the timer at the pre-event once the objectives are complete , upped rewards and/or decreased the Prismaticite Crystal cost (directly or indirectly via the Ingot) you wouldn't need to "kill it over and over", would you? Especially given that the only reward other than the skins for Dragon Slayer weapon collection is some AP.

    What is the constructive criticism here?

    P.S. I would not expect any major recalibration of Prismaticite Crystal costs until after the entire episode is over, presumably May 2021 at the earliest when Chapter 4: Judgment is set to be launched. Bjora Marches' Eternal Ice Shards used to be more scarce until the western portion was released, for example and ultimately it was Bjora Marches that helped with the LS4 currencies for both Skyscale and Vision (legendary accessory).

  • lombomon.7268lombomon.7268 Member ✭✭
    edited January 5, 2021

    Obviously rewards need to be given a little more love. I think to address that two things need to be done
    1) Add "exciting" rewards that require lots of Tyrian Defense Seals (expensive crafting mats like amalgamated gemstones or mystic coins, obviously in moderation, OR cosmetics like an infusion). Maybe also consider adding a guaranteed way to get Volcanic Stormcaller weapons for a huge amount of Defense Seals to encourage long-term play of the missions.
    2) Add "worthwhile" repeatable rewards. The supply boxes we currently have don't get you much bang for your buck. You can either reduce the Seal cost for these a bit or add a new repeatable reward that's a better deal.

    Then, the gameplay of DRM's could be adjusted to make them a little smoother.
    1) NPC allies, especially those related to the "ally support" mechanics, should have their vitality and toughness increased and/or auto-revive over time. Currently they die too often to bother keeping alive.
    2) Once the pre-event is complete, the DRM should progress immediately. Waiting out the timer is easily the slowest part of any DRM.
    3) Reduce the cost of recruiting an allied faction from Meradh, 10 Seals is too much.

    Aside from these changes, I think we should wait and see how the next couple masteries we get impact DRM's. If they're particularly powerful, the pacing issues might be alleviated.

    EDIT: Also reduce the cost of the Bead of Liquid Karma. 10 seals for 500 karma is not great lol.

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What evidence do you have to support such a claim? I know that for my play-group, none of us enjoy PvP so your point wouldn't impact us at all. IMO, GW2 is more PvE centric than anything else. I don't see anything that would change players' minds to suddenly start playing PvP.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What does PVP have to do with DRMs? (Dragon Response Missions)?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What evidence do you have to support such a claim? I know that for my play-group, none of us enjoy PvP so your point wouldn't impact us at all. IMO, GW2 is more PvE centric than anything else. I don't see anything that would change players' minds to suddenly start playing PvP.

    Might have been that the original gw was a more pvp focused game and so should gw2 in this guys oppinion.

  • Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2021

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

  • Updating them and not leaving them to wither and die might help.

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What evidence do you have to support such a claim? I know that for my play-group, none of us enjoy PvP so your point wouldn't impact us at all. IMO, GW2 is more PvE centric than anything else. I don't see anything that would change players' minds to suddenly start playing PvP.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What does PVP have to do with DRMs? (Dragon Response Missions)?

    Most players play multiple game modes.
    The people who've moved to other games since the Feb patch didn't spend 100% of their game play in pvp/wvw.
    Daily's are a routine for many people, and 2/3 modes are pvp oriented, how many people close the game in frustration before they reach DRM's.
    It effects population.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @avey.4201 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What evidence do you have to support such a claim? I know that for my play-group, none of us enjoy PvP so your point wouldn't impact us at all. IMO, GW2 is more PvE centric than anything else. I don't see anything that would change players' minds to suddenly start playing PvP.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @avey.4201 said:
    If pvp wasn't sabotaged more people would play, and more people would make there way there.

    What does PVP have to do with DRMs? (Dragon Response Missions)?

    Most players play multiple game modes.

    Again, where is your evidence to support this claim? How do you know that "most" players play multiple game modes. I my very small sample (my play group), none of us play multiple modes. Should I then be able to discredit your claim based on the evidence that I have?

    The people who've moved to other games since the Feb patch didn't spend 100% of their game play in pvp/wvw.

    Probably, but you know this how?

    Daily's are a routine for many people, and 2/3 modes are pvp oriented, how many people close the game in frustration before they reach DRM's.

    Completing dailies isn't required to complete game content. No one has to do them if they prefer DRMs.

    It effects population.

    One could claim that many different variables affect population. You haven't supported your point of view with anything factual.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2021

    If they were integrated into the game to appeal to how most people interact with the game ... that would be a start.

    As far as I'm concerned, Anet has lost the farm here. Trying to entice people to content with rare, infrequent drops and progression locks in instanced content ... everything that DOESN'T appeal to the initial adopters of this game. If they continue with this, I predict a quick end.

    If you're on a highway and roadrunner goes "beep beep"
    Just step aside or you might end up in a heap

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

    Well, we always get new currencies with a new low episode, so give this currency, [bring back trikey chest] — actually, literally anything, even plain zergs, are way better than what we have now in drm

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

    Well, we always get new currencies with a new low episode, so give this currency, [bring back trikey chest] — actually, literally anything, even plain zergs, are way better than what we have now in drm

    So the pinnacle of PvE content when it comes to greatness is content which all players in the map just mass up and wait their auto attacks? I guess I see why this game isn’t so as well as other MMOs. Such appeal!

    Making DRMs open world wouldn’t fix anything. They’d be no different than the majority of the other metas which players have abandoned once they got all of the unique rewards and/or achievements.

    DRMs already have a currency. Actually, they technically have three at the moment. What they need are better rewards which won’t lose value over time. But let’s be honest, this is LS and likely not intended to be done over the long term like the majority of the other LS content.

  • @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

    Well, we always get new currencies with a new low episode, so give this currency, [bring back trikey chest] — actually, literally anything, even plain zergs, are way better than what we have now in drm

    So the pinnacle of PvE content when it comes to greatness is content which all players in the map just mass up and wait their auto attacks? I guess I see why this game isn’t so as well as other MMOs. Such appeal!

    Making DRMs open world wouldn’t fix anything. They’d be no different than the majority of the other metas which players have abandoned once they got all of the unique rewards and/or achievements.

    DRMs already have a currency. Actually, they technically have three at the moment. What they need are better rewards which won’t lose value over time. But let’s be honest, this is LS and likely not intended to be done over the long term like the majority of the other LS content.

    Hmm. Looks like we start to argue about different things now.

  • Substance E.4852Substance E.4852 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The rewards need to be proportional to the time investment and DRM's need "long fractal" time investment but frankly give near "open world dynamic event" rewards

    Simply wandering around a lvl 80 vanilla map and doing events is more materially rewarding and feels less tedious

    I'll give any instanced content a fair shake since I get tired of meta zerg blob auto attack fests rather quickly but even I stopped giving a kitten once i got the axe skin

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

    Well, we always get new currencies with a new low episode, so give this currency, [bring back trikey chest] — actually, literally anything, even plain zergs, are way better than what we have now in drm

    So the pinnacle of PvE content when it comes to greatness is content which all players in the map just mass up and wait their auto attacks? I guess I see why this game isn’t so as well as other MMOs. Such appeal!

    Making DRMs open world wouldn’t fix anything. They’d be no different than the majority of the other metas which players have abandoned once they got all of the unique rewards and/or achievements.

    DRMs already have a currency. Actually, they technically have three at the moment. What they need are better rewards which won’t lose value over time. But let’s be honest, this is LS and likely not intended to be done over the long term like the majority of the other LS content.

    Hmm. Looks like we start to argue about different things now.

    We're not talking about different things..

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @nopinopa.4861 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Alexchaos.6528 said:
    Maybe they should've made the DRMs as new semi-Meta events in old maps instead of instanced content. I find it more engaging while doing events with lots of people and it also makes the world more "alive" hence why it's called living world I guess. This doesn't feel like a living world update at all imo.

    They'd end up as other maps' events. Unfortunately the biggest driver to keep players playing are rewards which hold their value over time.

    They could do it meta on older map and still give us good reward. Just like Anomaly: everyone come there for their 1 MC a day

    A meta event on the map itself would make it nothing but a boring zerg fest. The reward shouldn’t be tied to a single item as a reward as it would tank the price of that item and we’ll be right back to where it’s not worth doing.

    Well, we always get new currencies with a new low episode, so give this currency, [bring back trikey chest] — actually, literally anything, even plain zergs, are way better than what we have now in drm

    So the pinnacle of PvE content when it comes to greatness is content which all players in the map just mass up and wait their auto attacks? I guess I see why this game isn’t so as well as other MMOs. Such appeal!

    Massing up fits a Massively Multiplayer Online game ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    If i'd want to play a instanced lobby game, I'd rather play PoE / PSO2.
    No wonder high-end instanced content has such a low appeal even in other MMOs, just have to wait for cooldowns to be up, then press them in a rotation.
    Hell, games like BDO don't even have instanced stuff like that. I guess I know now why BDO is doing so good recently, while attempts at creating "Hardcore raiding experience MMORPGs that will dethrone WoW" failed.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    Hell, games like BDO don't even have instanced stuff like that. I guess I know now why BDO is doing so good recently

    BDO is doing so good because it released on multiple platforms, it released on mobile (majority of revenue comes from that), released a remastered version. Also, it's doing very well because they took advantage of the pandemic by offering the game completely free on Steam for a time, allowing thousands of players to try it out, together with a good marketing campaign and very generous cash shop offers (for free) to new players. BDO on PC was a wasteland in late 2019, it exploded in popularity in Q1/Q2 2020, for the above mentioned reasons, it had very little to do with whether they have instanced content or not.

    BDO mobile revenue =/= BDO revenue. Also completely missing the point that is just about BDO, not mobile.
    It being a wasteland in 2019 isn't actually true, would like sources on that.

    There's also a reason for they've changed their plans on Crimson Desert from coop instanced content to a single player game. So yeah, has a lot to do with instanced content. I doubt people are playing BDO for its instanced content heh.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    BDO mobile revenue =/= BDO revenue. Also completely missing the point that is just about BDO, not mobile.

    Right. The game launched in 2015 and the company announced it reached 1$ Billion sales in April 2019. The game reached 1.7$ billion (+700 million) from April 2019 to September 2020. So 4 years (45 months) to reach 1$ billion and 17 months to get another 700 million. That's a massive change in revenue in late 2019 plus 2020.
    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2020-09-10-black-desert-online-has-made-usd1-7bn-in-revenue-to-date

    You can also check their revenue reports where they tell us where their income is coming from. These are the percentages coming from PC:
    Q1 2019: 31%
    Q2 2019: 27%
    Q3 2019: 31%
    Q4 2019: 33%
    Q1 2020: 35%
    Q2 2020: 44%
    Q3 2020: 46%
    As you can see the revenue percentages of Pearl Abyss coming from PC have been on the rise. Given how their other game (EVE Online) has been mostly stable (with much lower numbers than BDO) it's easy to say that this difference is because of the emerging PC revenue in late 2019 and 2020.

    It being a wasteland in 2019 isn't actually true, would like sources on that.

    Someone asking for sources when providing none for their arguments...

    So yeah, has a lot to do with instanced content.

    Lineage 2 has no instanced content... look where it is now. You see this argument of "the game did well because it doesn't have instances, the other game did badly because it did have instances" doesn't really work.

    I was indeed mistaken about the game being dead in late 2019, more like 2018, the game earned 234% more money in 2019 than in 2018, a figure that only increased in 2020.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    BDO is a MMORPG that is doing great even without a focus on instanced content, that's my point.

    And it's doing well not because it doesn't have instanced content, which is what I pointed out. I don't know why someone would get so confrontational about it, I merely provided an observation that although BDO is doing well, without having instanced content, it's not the absence of instanced content that is making BDO a success. You didn't even dispute that (why would you?) but instead kept insisting on your previous argument, which mine doesn't really invalidate does it? Your argument of "BDO doing well without instanced content" and mine of "instanced content isn't what makes BDO a success" can actually coexist and be accurate at the same time... Peace out

    Edited to make it shorter

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have no idea why DRM thread derailed into talking about BDO...
    All I have to say is BDO is a typical Asian grindfest with limited "choice" and selectively better visuals along with no level cap. It's essentially the antithesis of GW2 which strived to be accessible and "pick up where you left off".

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    @Infusion.7149 said:
    I have no idea why DRM thread derailed into talking about BDO...
    All I have to say is BDO is a typical Asian grindfest with limited "choice" and selectively better visuals along with no level cap. It's essentially the antithesis of GW2 which strived to be accessible and "pick up where you left off".

    Given that GW2 keeps putting more and more emphasis on Open World activities, grinding and stupidly low RNG rates,
    it keeps growing closer to the "typical Asian grindfest" rather than being the opposite.
    While I was ok with Legendary collections, because they were supposed to be something special, I definitely disagree how some of the newer collections are handled. The worst offender in my opinion is the DRM Stormcaller weapons collection.

    And episodes being locked behind a paywall since season 2 directly contradicts the "pick up where you left off" idea.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2021

    In short:

    • Missions that are longer, but not artificially long like now. You could remove some of the timers and waiting around and reduce the health bars on the bosses and easily have room to add a few more encounters in the time left. The current missions are both too long due to artificial elements, and not long enough because when not waiting around on a timer or health sponge boss, its over in a flash.

    • Rewards that are consistent with other game modes, like dungeons or Fractals.

    • Some kind of progression system, which is missing entirely. Aside from rewards, there's just no reason to repeat DRMs at all because it doesn't get any more challenging. Once you learn the mission and complete it, thats it.

    The DRMs are good for bringing us to old locations, but somewhat poorly implemented. As I've said before, Fractals could've done the job better, and I know the devs like to avoid them because they're available to F2P players, but its just reinventing the wheel.

    What makes Fractals, WvW, etc. not feel grindy despite repetition is they're always changing.

    Hannah | Daisuki[SUKI] Founder, Ehmry Bay, NA | 22 charas, 17k hours, 28k AP | ♀♥♀
    Mains Mariyuuna/Auramancer(PvE) & Terakura/Healbreaker(WvW) aka Sea of Sorrows Silver Assaulter [SUKI]
    No need to be best, only good and kind.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:
    Given that GW2 keeps putting more and more emphasis on Open World activities, grinding and stupidly low RNG rates,
    it keeps growing closer to the "typical Asian grindfest" rather than being the opposite.
    While I was ok with Legendary collections, because they were supposed to be something special, I definitely disagree how some of the newer collections are handled. The worst offender in my opinion is the DRM Stormcaller weapons collection.

    Well said, and if I may add the "grind" for mastery points as well. I have this wish that when we get the rest of Champions we'll have an easier way to get the DRM collections finished, which could eventually lead to more players running DRMs regularly. Maybe when we get the full experience the problems we see in DRMs will vanish, or maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    I was indeed mistaken about the game being dead in late 2019, more like 2018, the game earned 234% more money in 2019 than in 2018, a figure that only increased in 2020.

    TLDR; BDO's changes in 2019 solved problems for old and new players alike, and ironically demonstrated ANet's idea of "shouldn't need to prepare to have fun" very well. In contrast, Champions/DRMs don't really do anything useful for anyone, and they're not even fun. For once, I'm actually looking forward to ANet abandoning a form of content for the future.

    Just to resurrect, then beat the dead horse a bit more: The upticks in BDO's late 2019 revenue probably have a lot to do with the Seasonal system they instituted in summer 2019. Seasonal servers allow players to get much closer to both level and gear cap at extremely low cost. Basically, you can get a character into the entry level of endgame content with great ease now. What used to take players years (and gallons of RNG tears) to achieve can be easily done in the space of two weeks of smart but casual play now. If you're casual but not particularly smart about the game, you have 2-3 months to get it done, which is more than enough time. BDO is currently running its third Season, and those Season servers are always absolutely packed with players, every single day of the week, at almost all hours of the day.

    Seasons took the primary two pain points for players (needing to no-life the game to reach level and gear cap) and found a way to get players very respectably close to both caps without nearly as much effort. This was also done in a way that didn't invalidate the efforts of veterans who worked to reach hardcap on things - it's still another huge step to reach actual caps, and it takes advanced knowledge of the game (either in terms of grinding out money efficiently or knowing how the gear upgrade system works) to get there. They've also stepped up their attention to narrative in a big, big way - while lore considerations used to be a total joke, the devs clearly got a better writing team, better localization, and decided to make narrative touches for various classes that differentiate how they experience the still-unified 'story' of the game, as it were. All of this came, as you noted, hand in hand with a smart marketing ploy to basically start giving the game away for a time during the pandemic.

    In short, BDO knew what to give and how to give it, and it appears to have worked out quite well.

    In contrast, I think DRMs fail on both the "what" and "how" questions. We've covered in the thread already that the "what" is just not there - the rewards are bad, and the gameplay is not interesting. The "how" is just as disappointing. As if the missions themselves being somewhat boring wasn't bad enough, they're just not designed for repeatability. Things we've already covered here - the initial mission not being push-able or offering greater benefits for over-completion, dialogue not being skippable, the whole fiasco with LFG only allowing squads to list, etc. - quite severely reduce the replay value of this "content."

    Although I'm always complaining that ANet is too quick to abandon content instead of iterating it, I think DRMs are an exception. I really see no potential in them, and will be glad to see them wither away into irrelevance.