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(Proposal) Bloodthirst: Necromancer's Alacrity


Swagg.9236

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This is a piece of a comprehensive effort to revamp Necromancer into competitive PvE form.

Bloodthirst

5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).

This effect does not stack in any way.

A single instance of Bloodthirst has a cap on the amount of healing that it can grant a player under its effects. The total healing possible for a single instance of Bloodthirst scales up based on the source player's healing power (modifier of 0.5) starting from a baseline of 390 health (with 0 healing power). If a player should gain an instance of Bloodthirst and heal to the maximum health allowed by that single instance (as determined by the source's healing power), that instance itself still will continue to remain on that player (without any further healing effect) until it expires naturally or is replaced by a new instance of Bloodthirst. Applying a new instance of Bloodthirst over an already active one will reset the total "healing done" count (given that the new instance starts fresh).

  • The idea here is to give core Necromancer its own unique buff which, with traits and proper rotation, can provide not only powerful self-buffs but also DPS-boosting party-buffs which will earn it a mainstay place in raid/fractal runs.
  • With a new, class-specific buff comes complementary trait and skill re-works. As such, this thread focuses primarily on trait line changes (specifically the Death and Blood Magic lines respectively) related to the proposed Bloodthirst mechanic. Despite that, many Necromancer weapons and utilities are in need of changes too, so consider that all of these suggestions were made with various weapon and utility adjustments/re-designs in mind.
  • These suggestions were conceived with the goal of providing core Necromancer viable, power-based options. These options could translate directly into Reaper as well (although, Reaper needs more work done specifically to it beyond just core Necro buffs).
  • Feel free to discuss and/or field suggestions.

Death Magic

!Putrid Defense removed and replaced with Lifebane Might (Death Magic adept-major)!Recharge: 1s!While under the effects of Bloodthirst, gain might when you strike a foe.!* Might (10s): 30 Power, 30 Condition Damage

!Soul Comprehension (Death Magic master-minor)

!For a brief period of time upon entering shroud, gain life force when you strike a foe.! Soul Comprehension (5s): Gain life force when you strike a foe (no more than once per interval).! Life Force: 3%!* Interval: 1s!This interval is global. The Necromancer cannot gain more than 3% life force per interval.

!Deadly Strength (Death Magic master-major)

!If you enter shroud while you are at or above the might stack threshold, lose might stacks and grant Deadly Strength to nearby allies.! Might Stack threshold: 10! Might Stacks lost: 10! Number of allies: 10! Deadly Strength (20s): 300 Power, 300 Condition Damage!* Radius: 300!This effect does not stack in any way. New instances of Deadly Strength will overwrite any active instances.

!Corruptor's Fervor name changed to Dark Fervor (Death Magic grandmaster-major)

!You have increased Healing Power. Bloodthirst you apply grants increased outgoing damage.! Healing Power: +150! Outgoing Damage Increased: 7%!This bonus also applies to all allies to whom the user grants Bloodthirst.

Blood Magic

! Mark of Evasion name changed to Ravenous (Blood Magic adept-minor)

!Gain an increased critical hit chance while under the effects of Bloodthirst.!* Critical Hit Chance Increase: 5%

!Blood Bond (Blood Magic adept-major)

!Bloodthirst you apply grants stacking power and ferocity.! Number of allies: 5! Blood Bond (20s): 15 Power, 15 Ferocity!* Maximum Stacks: 10

!This buff applies to all allies that receive the player's Bloodthirst.

!Vampiric (Blood Magic master-minor)

!Bloodthirst heals when it is applied.!* Healing: 130 (0.125)

!This healing applies to all allies as well as the user so long as a given instance of Bloodthirst is applied by a user equipped with this trait.

!Vampiric Presence (Blood Magic master-major)

!Gain Vampiric Presence when you enter shroud, granting Bloodthirst to nearby allies at every interval. Vampiric Presence lasts longer based on your life force when you enter shroud (ends early if you leave shroud in the midst of its duration).! Number of allies: 10! Vampiric Presence: Grant Bloodthirst to nearby allies at every interval.! Bloodthirst (3s): 5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).! Interval: 3s! Radius: 300! Vampiric Presence duration at 0%-25% life force: 1s! Vampiric Presence duration at 25%-50% life force: 3s! Vampiric Presence duration at 50%-100% life force: 6s

!Vampiric Presence applies Bloodthirst immediately upon initial application, and then continues to re-apply Bloodthirst along the interval ticks.

!Last Rites (Blood Magic grandmaster-minor)

!* Healing Power bonus is now fixed at +150.

!Balance reasons. Combined with things like the Mender's Amulet and Dark Fervor, an extra +150-450 healing power could be crazy.

!Vampiric Rituals (Blood Magic grandmaster-major)

!Well pulses grant you life force if they strike a foe. Upon creation, wells grant Bloodthirst to nearby allies.! Life Force per pulse: 1.5%! Number of allies: 5! Bloodthirst (5s): 5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).! Bloodthirst application radius: 300

!Life force gain only triggers once per pulse regardless of the number of targets struck.

!The radius of this trait's Bloodthirst application is centered at the middle of an associated well's placement location.

Non-weapon Bloodthirst skills

![blood is Power]! Cast-time: ¾s / Recharge: 30s! Corruption. Bleed yourself. Pulse Might and Bloodthirst to allies in the area.! Self-bleeding|2| (5s): [damage]! Blood is Power (4s): Pulse Might and Bloodthirst to nearby allies.! Number of allies: 10! Pulses: 3! Might|3| (15s): 60 Power, 60 Condition Damage! Bloodthirst (2s): 5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).! Combo Finisher: Blast! Radius: 300

!Pulses immediately upon cast and then at the end of every 2nd second of its duration (total of 3 pulses over 4 seconds in order to apply a total of 6s of Bloodthirst).

![signet of Vampirism]! Cast-time: 1¼s / Recharge: 25s! Passive: While in combat, gain life force over time whenever you are under the effects of Bloodthirst.
! Active: Gain health over time. Mark nearby foes for increased damage and grant Bloodthirst to nearby allies.! Passive Combat-Only Bloodthirst life force gain: 0.5%! Passive life force gain interval: 1s! Self Healing per second: 1620 (0.5)! Self Healing duration: 5s! Number of allies: 5! Number of targets: 5! Bloodthirst (6s): 5% of damage dealt is returned to you as healing (max: 390 (0.5) health).! Vampiric Curse (6s): 15% Incoming Damage, 15% Incoming Condition Damage! * Radius: 300

![Well of Suffering] (when traited)

! Recharge reduced from 35s to 15s.! Duration (in seconds) and total pulses reduced from 6 to 5 respectively.!* Radius reduced from 240 to 180.

![Well of Corruption] (when traited)

!* Recharge reduced from 40s to 30s.

![Well of Power] (when traited)

!* Recharge reduced from 40s to 30s.

![Well of Darkness] (when traited)

!Cast-time: ¼s / Recharge: 30s!Well. Daze foes at the target area. Target area pulses, blinding and crippling foes with each pulse. This well's final pulse knocks down foes within it.! Number of targets: 5! Initial daze: ½s! Blind (3s): Next outgoing attack misses! Crippled (1s): -50% Movement Speed! Final pulse knockdown: 1s! Pulse interval: 1s! Duration: 4s! Combo Field: Dark! Radius: 240! Range: 900!* Unblockable

!Pulses 5 times (first pulse occurs upon creation).

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@Xuazinegueri.3592 said:I like the idea to give necromancers a unique buff, and i liked the way that u constructed it, i think it could be used but only spliting pvp and pve content. No way devs will bring this to pvp

No way would they give it to PvE either, well in fact if you consider the number, there would be more chance for it to appear in PvP than in PvE and absolutely no chance for WvW. Simply put, it's a matter of damage output and PvP is ironically where it would be almost balanced, while you would have player with humongous sustain in PvE and WvW.

I know it's a matter of number and I would really like to get rid of the damage part of our necromancer's siphon but, if we assume that a power dps have something like 30k dps, that make 600 health point per seconds with 0 investment in healing power and that's a lot.

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Ofc it needs some numbers changes but, after 2 days of pvp matches with this mechanic, every single post on the forum would be "nerf necro, too op, mimimi, has 2 lifes and too much damage and heal". It's always like this.(ofc scourge was really overpowered, i know it, but it was bugged, wasnt even "his power"). No way this is going to get in pvp/wvw

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The problem with buffs like these is that eventually encounters just become balanced with the idea of having it in mind, which just means you'd likely see an increased incoming damage to compensate. It's part of the reason why a lot of themepark mmos got rid of their 30 min buffs, they were kind of pointless since you always had em on.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Xuazinegueri.3592 said:I like the idea to give necromancers a unique buff, and i liked the way that u constructed it, i think it could be used but only spliting pvp and pve content. No way devs will bring this to pvp

No way would they give it to PvE either, well in fact if you consider the number, there would be more chance for it to appear in PvP than in PvE and absolutely no chance for WvW. Simply put, it's a matter of damage output and PvP is ironically where it would be almost balanced, while you would have player with humongous sustain in PvE and WvW.

I know it's a matter of number and I would really like to get rid of the damage part of our necromancer's siphon but, if we assume that a power dps have something like 30k dps, that make 600 health point per seconds with 0 investment in healing power and that's a lot.

Honestly, that issue is entirely the fault of anet for having no proper relationship between PvE monster health and player health. Damage gets overturned to compensate for poor design and zero foresight. Unfortunately, what means is that the correct solution is to comprehensively nerfing everyone's gear stats (potential DPS) to be more in line with PvP and then nerfing end-game monster HP (fractals, raids and some HoT/PoF content) in turn (dungeons not included because a stat nerf like that would probably indirectly set them back to an appropriate level so that parties in ascended aren't one-cycling every boss in 4 seconds anymore).

Since that will probably never happen, do you have any other suggestions for balancing Bloodthirst? I won't back down on the concept mainly because it is necessary for necro to have something that basically every other class has on some level: unique party support (even if its as boring and mindless as Spotter). The only reason that I went to such an extent with the traits here is because necro has so many bloat traits as it is,and it would be nice to give them some purpose (as well as some general buffs). How about some ideas then:

  • Maybe Bloodthirst could return health at a very small base rate that is somehow affected by the user's (one who applied it) healing power?
  • Maybe there is a way to limit max healing on an interval basis? Maybe that max could be affected by user healing power?

The buff needs to remain as a trigger for the party damage support, but the incoming healing needs to be kept in check for the sake of balance.

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@Kalocin.5982 said:The problem with buffs like these is that eventually encounters just become balanced with the idea of having it in mind, which just means you'd likely see an increased incoming damage to compensate. It's part of the reason why a lot of themepark mmos got rid of their 30 min buffs, they were kind of pointless since you always had em on.

I never liked food buffs. That said, despite how I see what you mean by assuming their presence, I don't see why that is a bad thing if it gets necro into PvE again. Besides, if there is a more compacted, direct expectation of a class, doesn't that give said class a more well defined skill ceiling by holding a lot of people to similar expectations?

I mean, come on, look how well Anet's "play how you want" has worked out for gw2: it's not just a problem with options within classes anymore (certain weapons, traits, gear), but its now denying the inclusion of entire professions outright. It doesn't matter what you use as necro in PvE, using necro at all at "high-level" PvE is being the stubborn "I want to play my way" person at this point. That isn't fair. At least Bloodthirst would give necro a definitive means to access party groups as well as a concrete play-style expectation from not just other party members, but also the people just playing necro because they like it.

Necro needs this to be competitive and also to give the class some desperately needed identity.

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I certainly don't dislike the idea, don't get me wrong, it's just that it's fairly difficult to balance even at a single glance.

What I think is that the core necromancer deserve to have the ability to apply on it's foe a unique debuff that doesn't stack and affect the foe in a similar way that unique buff of other professions affect their allies. I'd say that it should reduce their toughness because it's convenient but they could add an effect that also let it impact the breakbar (for example).

As for the "bloodthirst" idea, maybe the base heal could be relatively low (2% with 0 healing power) but affected by healing power (pushing it by 1% every 500 healing power the necromancer have). You see what I mean? the more you invest in support the more support you give.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:I certainly don't dislike the idea, don't get me wrong, it's just that it's fairly difficult to balance even at a single glance.

What I think is that the core necromancer deserve to have the ability to apply on it's foe a unique debuff that doesn't stack and affect the foe in a similar way that unique buff of other professions affect their allies. I'd say that it should reduce their toughness because it's convenient but they could add an effect that also let it impact the breakbar (for example).

As for the "bloodthirst" idea, maybe the base heal could be relatively low (2% with 0 healing power) but affected by healing power (pushing it by 1% every 500 healing power the necromancer have). You see what I mean? the more you invest in support the more support you give.

That last change/balance factor is something that I like a lot, but my only legitimate worry is anet being technically capable of implementing it. That is my only legitimate concern. I kind of wanted to suggest something similar from the get-go, but since it would imply an entirely new mechanical interaction between player stats and an outgoing effect, I worry that anetwon't even be able to code it.

Your idea about it scaling off of base user healing power is a fine one. It's just up to anet if they could even code it in.

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I dont think 7% is so imbalanced as you make it sounds. First in fractals you have agony so you are hit you wont be healing, in raids there a lot of hard hitting attacks that you wont be able to heal by just 7% of outgoing damage. Just look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision if that was the case a full daredevil 10 man would faceroll raids/99 CM/100 CM ignoring mechanics. Another example would be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Contagion

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Bloodthirsty health drain could scale based on how many stacks of bleeding a foe has? of course a weak scale as getting a ton of stacks of bleeding is very possible more so in groups and bosses but with a name like Bloodthirsty the name necromancers are thirsty for blood?

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@OnizukaBR.8537 said:I dont think 7% is so imbalanced as you make it sounds. First in fractals you have agony so you are hit you wont be healing, in raids there a lot of hard hitting attacks that you wont be able to heal by just 7% of outgoing damage. Just look at https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invigorating_Precision if that was the case a full daredevil 10 man would faceroll raids/99 CM/100 CM ignoring mechanics. Another example would be https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Contagion

This is also something to consider, especially when 30k+ DPS is often an optimal scenario thing in raids. Again, Bloodthirst's function is more of a thematic support trigger for other bonuses and attacks (along with replacing some aspects of gw2's super-clunky life stealing mechanic). I think its healing potential could be better controlled and balanced, but even as a "5% damage converted to healing" mechanic, it isn't super broken. The balance issue here is one of user scaling really. It isn't a critical problem that can't be overcome.

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@Slayer.7318 said:Bloodthirsty health drain could scale based on how many stacks of bleeding a foe has? of course a weak scale as getting a ton of stacks of bleeding is very possible more so in groups and bosses but with a name like Bloodthirsty the name necromancers are thirsty for blood?

Bleeding has no real cap, so the base effect would have to be so low that it would be worthless in order for it not to go haywire in raids or on world bosses. It's also tied to a power-based style, so bleed spamming isn't necessarily viable for the user. The idea of it scaling incrementally with player healing power totals was a much more viable solution.

No offense to your coming up with an idea, though. It's important we talk about the options.

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A necromancer only buff that sticks with a solid theme (life stealing, active support) and also makes good use of our two worst trees (blood magic and death magic)?

Yes. Please, yes. If only anet could actually do this. I think this could be upped to 10% in all honesty, though. To put it -on par- with Alacrity, druid buffs, etc. Also the time on blood is power could stand to be increased. With this kind of healing (life steal healing) it needs some time to "ramp up" and be on par with other healing abilities. 1 second (in particular) isn't going to amount to all that much.

11/10 idea though.

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@Aplethoraof.2643 said:A necromancer only buff that sticks with a solid theme (life stealing, active support) and also makes good use of our two worst trees (blood magic and death magic)?

Yes. Please, yes. If only anet could actually do this. I think this could be upped to 10% in all honesty, though. To put it -on par- with Alacrity, druid buffs, etc. Also the time on blood is power could stand to be increased. With this kind of healing (life steal healing) it needs some time to "ramp up" and be on par with other healing abilities. 1 second (in particular) isn't going to amount to all that much.

11/10 idea though.

It's actually 5s total since the 1s applications tick every 1s for 5s (seperate instances also help stack the Blood Bond bonus). Same goes for the might. The Bloodthirst durations are balanced to be short since someone with BiP and Vamp Sig along with the Blood Magic line should be able to keep a pretty high Bloodthirst uptime on a party so long as the users positions well.

And thanks!

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your instances of life steal healing is way to short you are also shoving way too much support into core which should not be a thing. Thats scourge's role so it should be the thing that does support.

Im all for a % of damage as healing but the instances of 1 second you might not even get a hit off due to things like blocks, evades etc. Honestly 7% of damage is not much either in many cases it will be less than 100hp you are better off just going with the vampiric we have now.

If they want to do a % of damage as healing it should be Vampiric doing 10% -15% of critical damage only this way it condi builds cant make much use of it unless the necro goes full glass as they have the curses trait to heal off of their main source of damage. Overall i dont like your idea for a whole new mechanic of blood thirst its gonna be to weak in most situations .

Death magic should be traits that help prevent the necromancers own death /boost minons.Blood magic should be selfish sustain to the necro only and nothing more.Vamp signet is weaker with your suggestion honestly all the need to do to fix that is make it like the guardian healing meditation so that it only works on marked targets25% of damage is returned as healing to your marked target (only for the necro) maybe even 35% damage sense it can only be applied to 1 target.Lower the passive proc interval to receive healing on hit to 1/4 or 1/2 second (signet of suffering should do this)

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@ZDragon.3046 said:your instances of life steal healing is way to short you are also shoving way too much support into core which should not be a thing. Thats scourge's role so it should be the thing that does support.

The point of Bloodthirst was to be a trigger for actively-applied party DPS buffs; not to be support. The short durations are there as a means to balance how the Bloodthirst applications are designed to allow a single Necromancer to maintain a relatively high up-time on the buff and its associated bonuses. Moreover, it really isn't that great at healing support. Barrier would do a much better job at propping up a team's HP, but even then, Scourge is no match for Druid.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Im all for a % of damage as healing but the instances of 1 second you might not even get a hit off due to things like blocks, evades etc. Honestly 7% of damage is not much either in many cases it will be less than 100hp you are better off just going with the vampiric we have now.

If they want to do a % of damage as healing it should be Vampiric doing 10% -15% of critical damage only this way it condi builds cant make much use of it unless the necro goes full glass as they have the curses trait to heal off of their main source of damage. Overall i dont like your idea for a whole new mechanic of blood thirst its gonna be to weak in most situations .

Again, Bloodthirst isn't meant to be an HP support bonus; it's a party DPS booster. The life stealing properties of GW2 are a coding mess which could be better converted into a purpose which benefits an entire party and gives Necromancer a better identity within the scope of the game's content.

@ZDragon.3046 said:

Death magic should be traits that help prevent the necromancers own death /boost minons.Blood magic should be selfish sustain to the necro only and nothing more.

Designing by flavor is what got Necro into the mess that it's in right now. It's time to stop designing by flavor and re-work the bloat nonsense which nobody uses into worthwhile traits that actually give Necro a reason to exist in the game. All of the thematically selfish designs is what keeps Necro at the bottom of the barrel. It has to go.

@ZDragon.3046 said:Vamp signet is weaker with your suggestion honestly all the need to do to fix that is make it like the guardian healing meditation so that it only works on marked targets25% of damage is returned as healing to your marked target (only for the necro) maybe even 35% damage sense it can only be applied to 1 target.Lower the passive proc interval to receive healing on hit to 1/4 or 1/2 second (signet of suffering should do this)

Once more, Bloodthirst is a party damage booster which would give Necro a place in end-game content. My Vamp Signet rework is significantly stronger than the current version because of how it gives a party a massive, short-term damage boost along with applying a buff which, as part of a rotation, keeps the party's DPS elevated beyond what their normal stats provide.

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Made a bunch of tweaks based on some of the thoughts in the thread (vamp sig, BiP, Dark Fervor; biggest one probably regarding how to limit Bloodthirst's base healing potential while giving it the ability to scale to higher totals with Healing Power). A few things are probably over-tuned, but that's for more discussion, I guess.

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